EPTI'd really appreciate it. Also, if you can tell me what the reaver / goon player is supposed to do, that would also be much appreciated. Wether it's possible to tell that he's going to do it and adapt early, or if there's something you can do after he gets that fast exp up with the templars behind it.
PvP - reaver dragoon vs DT FE into HT's
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
I'd really appreciate it. Also, if you can tell me what the reaver / goon player is supposed to do, that would also be much appreciated. Wether it's possible to tell that he's going to do it and adapt early, or if there's something you can do after he gets that fast exp up with the templars behind it. | ||
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JMave
Singapore1806 Posts
the reason is that he will be very low on unit count. if you wait to have your reaver out then attack, he will probably have way enough cannons in his nat front and his storm research would probably already be finished. normally if you open dts in pvp, the idea is to gain control with the dt to sort of threaten him of a dt sneak in if he decides to attack. so if you get the second observer, you can defend your ramp with your next 2 goons after your first group of 7 moves out. | ||
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WeRRa
378 Posts
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8840 Posts
On February 27 2011 23:06 WeRRa wrote: imo the one with reavers has the adavantage, cause u have more units, u just push as soon as u see he has the dts and should win pretty easy. wrong. by the time you see his dts you will be either dead (if you have no obs) or busy killing the dt. at this timing you wont have a reaver which means you must push out with goons only, which will be destroyed by the 4 or so cannons + goons the opponent has. the best thing to do is wait it out for at least reavers and go for a timing attack when the opponent only has 2 or so storms bisu vs stork msl ro16? bisu goes dt fe vs stork reavers stork wins basically with dt fe you arent aiming to win the game (although it can happen) youre just trying to harrass and slow down the opponent while you expand and get an economic advantage. after getting out enough units including high templars you would roll the opponent due to him only having reavers as his support for his goons from the opponents perspective he should attempt reaver harrass to reduce the gap in economy and there is also a small timing window for the reaver player in which the dt fe player will not have sufficient storms to overpower 2 reaver/3reaver otherwise the reaver player cant do anything besides follow tech and continue harrass attempts etc and win through overall game sense (positioning, when to fight, where to attack, when to take 3rd etc) | ||
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
On February 27 2011 21:57 JMave wrote: if he goes dt and you go goon reaver, then you should make a second observer after your first or if you made shuttle then after shuttle, and attack. the reason is that he will be very low on unit count. if you wait to have your reaver out then attack, he will probably have way enough cannons in his nat front and his storm research would probably already be finished. normally if you open dts in pvp, the idea is to gain control with the dt to sort of threaten him of a dt sneak in if he decides to attack. so if you get the second observer, you can defend your ramp with your next 2 goons after your first group of 7 moves out. So you mean attack with just dragoons and an observer, with no reaver? I guess that actually makes sense. The cannons you force him to throw up to survive might even out the economical advantage he got from the über early expansion, too. | ||
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foppa
Canada451 Posts
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
On February 27 2011 23:31 foppa wrote: some goons reaver pushes will break it. your timing needs to hit before storm and/or your shuttle needs to be quick on picking up your reaver to avoid storms. best advice is that you should figure out his goon range timing when your goon range is done. if you notice his is not done, 2 gate obs is a far better option. if unsure, i would always ground reaver expand which is far more conservative and isnt really bad vs anything (besides 1 gate expand) but scouting from your first units should be able to tell if thats going on Sometimes I manage to break their front with goon reaver, but most of the time the storms fend me off :/ Anyway, even if Bisu had stayed at home with his templars during that game of MSL ro16, Stork would probably still have been able to break it with good micro. So I guess if you do a standard gate robo gate you should be fine as long as your micro isn't lackluster. | ||
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foppa
Canada451 Posts
On February 27 2011 23:39 vOdToasT wrote: Sometimes I manage to break their front with goon reaver, but most of the time the storms fend me off :/ Anyway, even if Bisu had stayed at home with his templars during that game of MSL ro16, Stork would probably still have been able to break it with good micro. So I guess if you do a standard gate robo gate you should be fine as long as your micro isn't lackluster. if you do obs before shuttle, you aren't going to break it. then it comes down to excellent micro. myself I don't want to decide the game on my micro in the early game. I am more confident going into the midgame at par. that's why i would always try my best to figure out the goon range timing. but again this is kind of the coin flip nature of pvp. usually reaver pushes put you somewhat behind against dt openings. | ||
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
On February 27 2011 23:49 foppa wrote: if you do obs before shuttle, you aren't going to break it. then it comes down to excellent micro. myself I don't want to decide the game on my micro in the early game. I am more confident going into the midgame at par. that's why i would always try my best to figure out the goon range timing. but again this is kind of the coin flip nature of pvp. usually reaver pushes put you somewhat behind against dt openings. Yeah, that's my problem. I'm searching for a safe opening that lets me adapt to anything and that will never put me behind just because of build order poker. DT fast expand is weak vs 3 gate dragoons with an obs, and 2 gate dragoon + reaver is weak vs DT fast expand... or so it seems to me. It's quite annoying. | ||
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foppa
Canada451 Posts
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On February 27 2011 21:47 vOdToasT wrote: Are there any vods or replays where one Protoss goes normal reaver goon (2 or 3 gate), and the other P goes DT fast expand, some cannons, then templars behind the cannons with storm, and the reaver / goon player wins? I'd really appreciate it. Also, if you can tell me what the reaver / goon player is supposed to do, that would also be much appreciated. Wether it's possible to tell that he's going to do it and adapt early, or if there's something you can do after he gets that fast exp up with the templars behind it. Firstly, I'm going to assume that you had the forethought to get an observer up. If you did a remotely competent job scouting you should be able to find out if he's going dt. If you are caught by surprise you are probably dead. From here you have an obvious decision to make: attack or defend? I can't tell you what to do because it has to do with the exact game + your style. These kinds of open ended threads are very bad in that sense. A replay OF YOU would be very nice. When you just say "help, I don't know what to do against X" other players are forced to play an imaginary game of SC in their heads. You might then say "but I want VODs or reps or progamer and what they do" but 1-2 VODs or reps will not define what will happen when playing against X. What happens in a game is always situational. Also, the "proper" response for a progamer might not work the same for a D or C rank player... With attacking, there are a couple considerations. 1. Assuming you macro'd properly, there should be a timing window in which you can strike. But if you had too much difficulty protecting yourself from his initial dt (let's say, your obs came out slower than his dt so you ended up losing a few dragoons you used to clog your entrance while waiting for obs, just as an example) you may end up missing the window. If this happens your only hope rests with your reaver (see defense below). 2. You will need 2 obs, obviously. One has to go with your army, the other has to be used to defend your base. If you did a 3 gate/reaver then I see attack as your only option. With defense, you only need 1 obs since you aren't going to be pushing on him. Use your initial reaver to pressure him directly. You don't actually have to make many kills, but the main idea is that you need to keep him pressured. Don't allow yourself to feel pressured that he expanded before you. Unless you were cutting probes, that actually won't matter as much as you might think. Since you're now playing a macro game, your main consideration should be his army composition when he pushes out. He's going to be zealot heavy since he invested his gas in dt and storm. How the battles turn out will depend heavily on his ability to surround your dragoons and his ability to use storm effectively against you. Note that he will likely have an advantage in upgrades as well, so you need to be smart with your army. (But smart does NOT mean scared, just fyi.) I'd advise keeping up with reavers throughout the midgame and researching scarab damage upgrade to make them more effective. I'd also advise getting that citadel fairly quickly after you expand so that you can get speedy zeals of your own. Whereas he's going to be using his zealots to surround and kill your dragoons, your zealots serve the purpose of a meat shield to keep him off of you. At that point it comes down heavily to your reaver micro. Use them well and the fact that he's zealot heavy could wind up hurting him; lose them to his storms and you're gonna die. | ||
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Knickknack
United States1187 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=57463 and here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=108748 This might be called one of the slight weaknesses of reaver builds, along with 4gate, etc. If you have no to minimal investment in shuttle-bay-reaver tech then expo asap probably or delay expo slightly for timing attack if you can manage it. If you are farther along in tech, then you decide between all-inish 2reaver attack, or 1reaver attack. That's really all there is early on. | ||
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JMave
Singapore1806 Posts
On February 27 2011 23:16 vOdToasT wrote: So you mean attack with just dragoons and an observer, with no reaver? I guess that actually makes sense. The cannons you force him to throw up to survive might even out the economical advantage he got from the über early expansion, too. yes. i have played a ton of pvps against dt openings and i found the best option to be attacking at that timing. usually, you can't just force him to build more cannons but you must try to take out the nat and as many probes as possible if he pulls them over to defend. | ||
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
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endy
Switzerland8970 Posts
Because of dt tech + exp + cannons, he will usually make obs very late, and because of the risk that I push his natural with goons reavers, he'll keep all his units at his nat. So I only make 1 obs to defend dts and expand. Then I'll use my shuttle + reaver to harass. Because he'll keep units at nat and he doesn't have obs, unless I fly my shuttle over a hidden pylon or something, harassing him is really easy. Even if I don't get any probe, he'll have to move probes from main to natural and lose a lot of mining time. With my rather fast expand + harassment, I'm in a decent position for mid-game. | ||
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JMave
Singapore1806 Posts
On February 28 2011 15:26 endy wrote: What I always do at my C- level when I scout dts into expand : Because of dt tech + exp + cannons, he will usually make obs very late, and because of the risk that I push his natural with goons reavers, he'll keep all his units at his nat. So I only make 1 obs to defend dts and expand. Then I'll use my shuttle + reaver to harass. Because he'll keep units at nat and he doesn't have obs, unless I fly my shuttle over a hidden pylon or something, harassing him is really easy. Even if I don't get any probe, he'll have to move probes from main to natural and lose a lot of mining time. With my rather fast expand + harassment, I'm in a decent position for mid-game. i quite agree. if you decide not to attack, then the pressure is back on you though. your next priority after getting your expanion is to match his tech because him going dts automatically puts him ahead in tech. also adding in 1-2 dts in your army composition is good because it will force him to get observers before being able to push out, which can allow you to squeeze in a third faster than he can. | ||
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foppa
Canada451 Posts
On February 28 2011 19:12 JMave wrote: i quite agree. if you decide not to attack, then the pressure is back on you though. your next priority after getting your expanion is to match his tech because him going dts automatically puts him ahead in tech. also adding in 1-2 dts in your army composition is good because it will force him to get observers before being able to push out, which can allow you to squeeze in a third faster than he can. getting dt tech doesn't mean you're going to be able to safely expand. why progamers automatically go to citadel as soon as they realize their opponent opened dt is to be able to counter a no-robo timing push | ||
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Ero-Sennin
United States756 Posts
Can you win if they go DT/HT/cannon? Yeah, you need 3 gate goon constant production and 2 reavers. Then you need to micro your reavers/shuttle effectively enough so they don't die to the storms. It's really tough though. | ||
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JMave
Singapore1806 Posts
On February 28 2011 23:47 foppa wrote: getting dt tech doesn't mean you're going to be able to safely expand. why progamers automatically go to citadel as soon as they realize their opponent opened dt is to be able to counter a no-robo timing push i don't know where you are getting at. i'm not saying to primarily get dt tech to prevent him from moving out. it is to catch up with him in terms of tech. your main priority is still to get hts with storm. | ||
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foppa
Canada451 Posts
On March 01 2011 09:43 JMave wrote: i don't know where you are getting at. i'm not saying to primarily get dt tech to prevent him from moving out. it is to catch up with him in terms of tech. your main priority is still to get hts with storm. no, i'm saying thats the reason to get templar tech. if you don't get templar tech asap and he decides to go to 6 gates without a robo, you're going to lose every single time. | ||
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