EPTPvZ: (2) Reaver Midgames
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ShadowMaster
United States238 Posts
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ShadowMaster
United States238 Posts
1st - Notice that the Reaver late-game is not and will not be the subject of much debate. Either the game will be a natural continuation that can be classified right here, or the Zerg will end up with lots of mass Hydras (100+ psi), in which circumstances the Protoss cannot survive with a Reaver-based game plan. He needs to switch to Storm. 2nd- I know that there have already been a lot of threads on PvZ and ZvP Reavers. With this thread I hope that I can gather the most useful of these and put it somewhere easy to access and easy to read. | ||
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ShadowMaster
United States238 Posts
(LIST=ORDERED) (*) first point (*) second point ... (/LIST). I have also tried 1.(*), but that doesn't want to work either. [EDIT]Got it. For some reason, the "ordered" bit is cap-sensative  | ||
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ieatkids5
United States4628 Posts
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ShadowMaster
United States238 Posts
On October 26 2004 12:45 ieatkids5 wrote: Should HydraLurk be added to the unit compositions? Right you are Actually, I meant to include that with Hydras | ||
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KissBlade
United States5718 Posts
The main way to stop sair/reaver when your opponent wants to mass sairs is aggressive scourging IMO. If you can keep the corsairs from breaking out till he's about 6 or 7, you'll be able to get some expos up with colonies and just mass hydras which is probably the best counter. | ||
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ShadowMaster
United States238 Posts
On October 26 2004 13:19 KissBlade wrote: Shadowmaster, I don't think spire/hydra works because the spire is only useful for countering Sairs early game and perhaps late game devourers can do some work. (Though Devourers are way too vulnerable to psi storm) The main way to stop sair/reaver when your opponent wants to mass sairs is aggressive scourging IMO. If you can keep the corsairs from breaking out till he's about 6 or 7, you'll be able to get some expos up with colonies and just mass hydras which is probably the best counter. To be honest, I don't see anything special in Hydra/Mute, but I know that some people have mentioned it in the past and it seems like a legitimate alternative (especially with those who do a muta build into lurks and keep the mutes as long as possible). Are you talking about a specific game setup? | ||
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BigBalls
United States5354 Posts
i used goon/reaver/sair for 2 years, trust me when i say this is the best counter. | ||
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ShadowMaster
United States238 Posts
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maleorderbride
United States2916 Posts
 obviously with a smattering of scourges to flank | ||
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RuGbUg
United States2347 Posts
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ShadowMaster
United States238 Posts
On October 26 2004 14:45 maleorderbride wrote: i think if you have the mins hydra/mutt/devo is better obviously with a smattering of scourges to flank Yes, that would seem to be a dangerous line-up, but what would you need to get it? It is both expensive and time-consuming, as you will need to find a way to secure enough gas and tech to Greater Spire while preventing the Protoss from running over whatever you have NOW. I'm guessing you would approach it from something of a hydra/spire unit composition and a "tech" type build? How many bases will the Zerg need to support this? | ||
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maleorderbride
United States2916 Posts
And most tosses with this BO take both islands early. I understand it may not seem easy to stop them, but just drop 8 hydras on the island he has hasnt taken yet and DONT LET HIM TAKE IT. | ||
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KissBlade
United States5718 Posts
On October 26 2004 14:15 BigBalls wrote: hydra/muta is the best counter to goon/reaver/sair. i used goon/reaver/sair for 2 years, trust me when i say this is the best counter. I'd have to know how they did that because I've had so little success with this. I could do scourge/hydra but if I went mutas, they simply rape them with sairs and dweb the hydras while shuttling in reavers. Plus if I go hydra/mutas I lose the mobility of mutas because I have to keep escorting them with hydras to make sure they don't get killed. | ||
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Hautamaki
Canada1311 Posts
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ShadowMaster
United States238 Posts
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exalted
United States3612 Posts
As for corsair, it can be annoying but to me is similar to dealing with cloaked wraith with muta/scourge/overlord; again it's really just adapting, if he gets mass sair then change the strat to something else (not air / drop) | ||
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Smorrie
Netherlands2925 Posts
In PvZ I think reavers should only be used as opening strat, like cannoning the zergs exp with a 2 or 3 cannons and then drop his main with a rvr and some zeals or something like that. Then do whatever you have to do.. you'll either have a big advantage so you basically can't lose anymore, or Z expected your stuff and you're dead. In midgame you should just have temps I think ~_~ And in late game reavers get really good again when you're facing ultra/ling. | ||
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ShadowMaster
United States238 Posts
On October 28 2004 00:56 exalted wrote: Thanks to shadowmaster for making such informative points. I'd just like to reiterate some points that I feel are really important - zerg CAN be about outmassing units, but in the case of reaver/goon, I feel that the most important thing to do is to exercise your mobility, through mutalisks. Mutalisks can put a fight to dragoons similar like they can vs goliaths, but if you look at the Drone vs Nony game Drone made mutalisks in order to try to make a flank from the air but Nony had a nice switch to templar. However, his natural was devoid of photon cannons and i believe the outcome would be very different with a little more output from Drone in his macro and also if he had harassed that nexus, putting Nony very far behind, or at worst he would have to stop his attack and come back to save it. Dragoons are very clunky and slow, and zerg should definitely take advantage of that with spire tech - also spire serves the double purpose of limiting reaver mobility. It is definitely key to get spire vs goon reaver as you force him to spend more money on some kind of base defense - as if you have 12+ mutalisk cannons + goon is not really enough - templar / archon is needed and if he doesnt' have it the game is over for him - similarly the hydralisks if well flanked can be supported with the highly mobile mutalisks providing an additional flank and a nice focus fire damage to the reaver. Lurkers are not recommended as said before as goons and reaver are both very powerful vs it and observer tech is so easily taken. As for corsair, it can be annoying but to me is similar to dealing with cloaked wraith with muta/scourge/overlord; again it's really just adapting, if he gets mass sair then change the strat to something else (not air / drop) Yes It has definitely been made clear that Spiretech is critical, we might even go so far as to say required, vs. Reaver strategies. However, it has some serious downfalls. First, it is vital to distinguish between pure Spire and Spirehydra. Pure spire is actually quite risky and I think unsound against good Protoss play because the harrassment can be countered by only a few Corsairs -- Protoss can harrass your harrassment! You can't ignore them, and the Protoss would love for you to chase them all day, In the meantime, notice the effect these Corsairs have: the simple fact that he has these Corsairs is almost like giving the Dragoons a speed upgrade to get where they need to go while the Corsairs distract Muts. Any damage the Zerg can do is more likely psychological than physical.Of course, every good Zerg will have a small handful of Scourge along, right? Well, it's not as simple as that. I would again refer readers to the Reach - Mumyung game, particularly the early game in which Reach has only 5 or 6 Corsairs vs. Mumyungs Mutascourge. Reach wants to make a second expansion in the valley to the right of his natural; Mumyung wants to stop him. A micro battle ensues in which Scourge and Corsairs fence back and forth, hoping to lure the other too far. In this particular skirmish, after a while of testing eachother Reach finally slips and Mumyung catches several of the Corsairs with scourge. Mumyung wins the first battle, preventing the expansion attempt and destroying a total Protoss investment of one Pylon. It is obvious, though, that this is a micro game and, objectively, doesn't clearly favor either player. Although the Zerg has the advantage of pressure, unless he deals some real damage (which is unlikely except on a serious mistake from the Protoss), every passing second favors Protoss as he builds up his dream force of Reaver-Goon (and/or Corsair) or even switches tech tracks. I feel this illustrates an important point: Pure Spire, while tactically dangerous, is strategically weak. Although the Zerg gets mobility and initiative, he has no back-bone to his game. It's like a light-weight fighter vs. a heavy-weight: the light-weight can land blow after blow without doing much damage while only one counterhit will put him out. In the hypothetical situation that both players play perfectly, I think that the Zerg player will deal no real damage before the Protoss gets what he needs to crush the Zerg. There is also a second consideration when Zerg goes for Muta harrassment: while those Mutas are pestering your base, you have an almost equal (you might still need to worry about Scourge) opening to Reaver drop his base; this is particularly applicable if Zerg has been greedy and can't cover all his bases at once. Notice how Reach finally overcame the Muta harrassment: he Reaver dropped the defenseless enemy expansion to the left of his main, drawing the Mutas across the map to defend. Meanwhile he was finally able to get that 2nd expansion up and running. The speedy shuttle beat a hasty retreat before the Mutas arrived, and when the Mutas went back to harrassment duties, they found that they were too late -- Reach had already consolidated his expansion attempt with Corsairs and cannons! | ||
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ShadowMaster
United States238 Posts
On October 28 2004 06:49 Smorrie wrote: imo reavers are only good to drop some drones with and do some quick hit and run stuff.. without exping you won't have enough resources to actually build a big enough army to actually win the game with and you'll get raped by mass muta/ling. So basically you always have to exp, which will end up in you being ready to get out of your base in midgame.. In that time the z had enough time to put up enough hatches&exps with early grading so he'll have really alot hydra/ling with 2-2 grades and already getting 3-3 & hive tech.. In PvZ I think reavers should only be used as opening strat, like cannoning the zergs exp with a 2 or 3 cannons and then drop his main with a rvr and some zeals or something like that. Then do whatever you have to do.. you'll either have a big advantage so you basically can't lose anymore, or Z expected your stuff and you're dead. In midgame you should just have temps I think ~_~ And in late game reavers get really good again when you're facing ultra/ling. Smorrie, notice that this topic is specifically for the middlegames of Reaver openings. The early-game topic is right here, and your contribution there would be valued. Also, I am in no way trying to discredit the value of Storm strategies! Storm is great! I'm only trying to look at other options; who likes doing or seeing the same thing every game? Plus, having one more weapon in the repertoire will make the while Protoss game, and thus Storm, stronger. This discussion begins with assuming Protoss has already expanded once and has that expansion up and running. You'll notice that I've split the Zerg midgame setups into different groups (aggressive, greedy, tech). Which one are you referring to, or do you feel that I need to add another one? It sounds like you are talking about a Spire/Hydratech unit composition (opening Mutaling to Hydraling?). You mention enough expansions to fuel 2-2 upgrades and hive-tech while also having a sturdy Hydraling force. This would be all three -- aggressive, economy, AND tech! I hate to say it, but this sounds a little too idealistic to me. This strategy isn't so slow and passive for the Protoss; Zerg just doesn't have enough resources or time to try for all of this without getting run over by Reaver/goon (or a timely switch to Templar/Zeal/Archon), or else getting blasted by Reaver drops. But remember, I'm asking for it! Please prove me wrong with reps/references! | ||
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