This is an awesome tvp mid-game 2-base all-in that Hiya used against Shuttle back in 2009 Proleague.
By cutting a lot of SCVs, the build allows you to move out with 8 tanks, 4 vultures, and 4 marines at about 8:05. It is safe against any kind of early game cheese other than a toss who rushes straight for DT, making only 1 or 2 goons and skipping the range upgrade.
Back in 2009 I had to watch the above VOD several times and do a bunch of tests in single player to figure out how to execute the build exactly as Hiya did it. I wrote all the steps down in a notebook. When playing on Fighting Spirit in the iCCup ladder, I would win something like 9 out of 10 games with this build. Even though I was only B- high, I never lost against an A- level foreigner when doing this build for the first time vs them. Since I don't ladder anymore, I thought I'd share it with the few TL terrans left that still do. Here it is, just as it's written in my notebook:
-12 refinery -16 fact -27 cc (26 if scouting SCV dies) -one SCV after second tank (30 supply), then cut SCVs for siege upgrade, e-bay, third tank, and second factory -cut SCVs for turrets (4 max), tanks 6 and 7, factories 3 and 4, academy, 8th tank, vulture speed upgrade, 4 vults, mines upgrade, comsats -when you move out at 8:05, your supply should be 60/68 *note* you never take SCVs off gas
The BO is not precise since I don't include when to make depots, but with a bit of practice you should be able to figure that out on your own. Note that this build is most effective on Fighting Spirit, since you can float your e-bay and barracks to the protoss as you move out and wall off at his natural, as seen in the VOD. After that, he will either do one of two things: he will suicide his whole army in an attempt to break your contain, or he will try to recall in your main. If it's the latter, you need to move a bunch of your units back to your base in time to defend.
yea its just that i only watched the vod and from that i can see its a good build vs fast arbiter. but, its pretty blind against early gateway builds. the factory timing wasnt all that special it was just the lack of gateways on shuttle's side
If you're moving out @ 8:05 , is he really recalling at this time? Also, 4fact is really just a standard push and if you're cutting scvs after turret to add them, I don't really see this working, unless they did 1gate 2nexus.
@foppa: Okay, well if toss neither techs to arbiter nor makes a third nexus, and just makes like 5+ gateways of units on two bases, then yeah, the push probably isn't going to work. But if the toss is any decent, he's not going to two base without arbiter tech unless he expects a fast push like that. Not sure at what level you play, but when I used to play at the C+/B- levels, toss players would very rarely go 2 base with no stargate tech.
@dRaW: This isn't a standard 4-fact. The push moves out MUCH sooner than a standard 4-fact (almost a minute sooner). And of course he isn't recalling at 8:05.. lol, come on, that's ridiculous. I was talking about after you pushed out and killed his natural expo.
I'm kind of surprised that people are so quickly dismissing this build without even trying it. This isn't just some gimmick that a noob like myself came up with. This is a progamer build ffs.
The point about recalling was that after you kill his natural, if he was going 2base arb he will get an arbiter out soon and since you did a lower-econ 4fact you'll still only have 2 bases like Hiya did when he was just massing outside. The point is that although you can kill a nat easily, it can be relatively difficult/costly to push a P's ramp so you should just wait him out until he tries the recall.
I'd never heard of any standarization 4 fact timing push that hits at around the 9 minute mark? Then it would be more resonable to try out the 5-factory timing push if you hit that late with a 4 factory push. The Standard 4-facting timing push Im using, you move out from base at 7:30. Taken from Light vs dream.t)jangbi on Andromeda. This build was designed to hinder the third base from protoss. Not so good agianst 2 base arbiter.
But this build you're showing seems indeed to be better against 2 base arbiter. Only issues im thinking about is how it would fare against early 3 base and how do you found out in time so you can adept to a 4 factory timing push like this against a 2 base arbiter? What are the things you look for when you scout? Pro's don't scout for it they just "sense" it as it seems.
On November 22 2010 03:44 NeVeR wrote: @foppa: Okay, well if toss neither techs to arbiter nor makes a third nexus, and just makes like 5+ gateways of units on two bases, then yeah, the push probably isn't going to work. But if the toss is any decent, he's not going to two base without arbiter tech unless he expects a fast push like that. Not sure at what level you play, but when I used to play at the C+/B- levels, toss players would very rarely go 2 base with no stargate tech.
this season im playing at like a b- level (most of the time lol). i open pretty standard 2 gate obs everysingle game. its impossible to get turrets above your factory before my obs unless you put yourself so far behind. from there i cant always keep my gateway count above the factory count. if i cut probes and you cut scvs, i end up ahead if youre trying to attack me. although, more than willing to practice with anyone doing this build!
also im dismissing it as viable! its just that from i understand right now, 2 gate obs double expo would allow me to get 7 gateways in time to defend this
to me, it seemed that hiya had to micro very well. his turret placement was also key in deny scouting info for critical period and keeping shuttle in the dark. it seemed that he had to be able to push out really well.
On November 22 2010 03:44 NeVeR wrote: @foppa: Okay, well if toss neither techs to arbiter nor makes a third nexus, and just makes like 5+ gateways of units on two bases, then yeah, the push probably isn't going to work. But if the toss is any decent, he's not going to two base without arbiter tech unless he expects a fast push like that. Not sure at what level you play, but when I used to play at the C+/B- levels, toss players would very rarely go 2 base with no stargate tech.
this season im playing at like a b- level (most of the time lol). i open pretty standard 2 gate obs everysingle game. its impossible to get turrets above your factory before my obs unless you put yourself so far behind. from there i cant always keep my gateway count above the factory count. if i cut probes and you cut scvs, i end up ahead if youre trying to attack me. although, more than willing to practice with anyone doing this build!
also im dismissing it as viable! its just that from i understand right now, 2 gate obs double expo would allow me to get 7 gateways in time to defend this
Ya, Hiya's build works better against certain builds and on certain maps...that's not something new or insightful. Take Hiya's game and Never's personal information on the build for what it's worth. Nobody is trying to say this build is the be all and end all to TvP it's just a very powerful build on Fighting Spirit against common protoss openings, that's all.
On November 22 2010 03:44 NeVeR wrote: @foppa: Okay, well if toss neither techs to arbiter nor makes a third nexus, and just makes like 5+ gateways of units on two bases, then yeah, the push probably isn't going to work. But if the toss is any decent, he's not going to two base without arbiter tech unless he expects a fast push like that. Not sure at what level you play, but when I used to play at the C+/B- levels, toss players would very rarely go 2 base with no stargate tech.
this season im playing at like a b- level (most of the time lol). i open pretty standard 2 gate obs everysingle game. its impossible to get turrets above your factory before my obs unless you put yourself so far behind. from there i cant always keep my gateway count above the factory count. if i cut probes and you cut scvs, i end up ahead if youre trying to attack me. although, more than willing to practice with anyone doing this build!
also im dismissing it as viable! its just that from i understand right now, 2 gate obs double expo would allow me to get 7 gateways in time to defend this
I'm not a great player at tvp nor do I have any high level of understanding of tvp. So if there seems to be anything you disagree with, feel free to point it out. I agree that any 1 gate/2 gate robo then expo build would have obs fast enough to keep on the terran's fact count. But doesn't this delay your nexus relative to the terran's expo. I think you would have start your nexus when terran lands his command center at his nat. When your obs get in his main you're a bit behind for playing so safe that you would have to do damage with some reaver follow up or take your third really fast which I think the strat Hiya used would do very well against.
I experimented with timing pushes TvP for like 2 years in broodwar. This build is really good but it's pretty allin. If you don't win you're kind of owned but it has such a good chance to win it's not TOO risky. And if the toss just power 2base and adds tons of quick gates you can camp and go for your 3rd and not be that far behind because the toss stays on 2base for so long to counter it.
EPT
And you're definitely cutting more than 4 SCVs.
