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On November 22 2010 17:07 Ilikestarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2010 05:50 foppa wrote:On November 22 2010 03:44 NeVeR wrote:
@foppa: Okay, well if toss neither techs to arbiter nor makes a third nexus, and just makes like 5+ gateways of units on two bases, then yeah, the push probably isn't going to work. But if the toss is any decent, he's not going to two base without arbiter tech unless he expects a fast push like that. Not sure at what level you play, but when I used to play at the C+/B- levels, toss players would very rarely go 2 base with no stargate tech. this season im playing at like a b- level (most of the time lol). i open pretty standard 2 gate obs everysingle game. its impossible to get turrets above your factory before my obs unless you put yourself so far behind. from there i cant always keep my gateway count above the factory count. if i cut probes and you cut scvs, i end up ahead if youre trying to attack me. although, more than willing to practice with anyone doing this build! also im dismissing it as viable! its just that from i understand right now, 2 gate obs double expo would allow me to get 7 gateways in time to defend this I'm not a great player at tvp nor do I have any high level of understanding of tvp. So if there seems to be anything you disagree with, feel free to point it out. I agree that any 1 gate/2 gate robo then expo build would have obs fast enough to keep on the terran's fact count. But doesn't this delay your nexus relative to the terran's expo. I think you would have start your nexus when terran lands his command center at his nat. When your obs get in his main you're a bit behind for playing so safe that you would have to do damage with some reaver follow up or take your third really fast which I think the strat Hiya used would do very well against.
you would only do a reaver follow up if you see no turrets. you put yourself behind for playing safe but you are in a great position to add your gateways at the appropriate time. by the time his 4 factories are down my 3rd will be up and running (double expo of 6 goons) and i can cut probes immediately after seeing the speed at which the terran adds his factories. i this point i can afford 7 gateways and the citadel with legs. from here, im in a great position to defend. if i do choose to go reaver because i see a lack of turrets, i can stall with the reaver to wait for the gateways to kick in (it slows your gate count down a bit).
to sum it up: ill have really really shitty saturation of 3 bases but it will be safe to defend this push and after the threat is gone, i can power probes like no tomorrow. this puts the terran in a position where he needs to realize whats going on and camp a third. from there its pretty even if the terran does decide to do this.
edit: just tried this in single player. at 8::05 i have 10 goons, speed for zealots half way done, 4 zealots about to pop and 7 gateways on line. this should be enough to hold it if i am not mistaking.
also, Terran at this push timing has 32 scvs. i have 37 probes and additional mining patches. i can also go up to 9 gateways if need be considering the ongoing battle will allow to continue rebuilding armies without making pylons.
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I tried this build with an earlier academy and 2nd gas and skipped ebay after being fairly certain of no reaver. The SCV cutting makes it a delightful surprise, but I bet a P more familiar with it would start powering gateways after seeing the natural's saturation with obs.
p.s. I rate this build 5 out of 5 for killing an innocent Kiante.
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Australia7069 Posts
blind countered my dt drop and 2 base arbiter 
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On November 23 2010 06:29 foppa wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2010 17:07 Ilikestarcraft wrote:On November 22 2010 05:50 foppa wrote:On November 22 2010 03:44 NeVeR wrote:
@foppa: Okay, well if toss neither techs to arbiter nor makes a third nexus, and just makes like 5+ gateways of units on two bases, then yeah, the push probably isn't going to work. But if the toss is any decent, he's not going to two base without arbiter tech unless he expects a fast push like that. Not sure at what level you play, but when I used to play at the C+/B- levels, toss players would very rarely go 2 base with no stargate tech. this season im playing at like a b- level (most of the time lol). i open pretty standard 2 gate obs everysingle game. its impossible to get turrets above your factory before my obs unless you put yourself so far behind. from there i cant always keep my gateway count above the factory count. if i cut probes and you cut scvs, i end up ahead if youre trying to attack me. although, more than willing to practice with anyone doing this build! also im dismissing it as viable! its just that from i understand right now, 2 gate obs double expo would allow me to get 7 gateways in time to defend this I'm not a great player at tvp nor do I have any high level of understanding of tvp. So if there seems to be anything you disagree with, feel free to point it out. I agree that any 1 gate/2 gate robo then expo build would have obs fast enough to keep on the terran's fact count. But doesn't this delay your nexus relative to the terran's expo. I think you would have start your nexus when terran lands his command center at his nat. When your obs get in his main you're a bit behind for playing so safe that you would have to do damage with some reaver follow up or take your third really fast which I think the strat Hiya used would do very well against. you would only do a reaver follow up if you see no turrets. you put yourself behind for playing safe but you are in a great position to add your gateways at the appropriate time. by the time his 4 factories are down my 3rd will be up and running (double expo of 6 goons) and i can cut probes immediately after seeing the speed at which the terran adds his factories. i this point i can afford 7 gateways and the citadel with legs. from here, im in a great position to defend. if i do choose to go reaver because i see a lack of turrets, i can stall with the reaver to wait for the gateways to kick in (it slows your gate count down a bit). to sum it up: ill have really really shitty saturation of 3 bases but it will be safe to defend this push and after the threat is gone, i can power probes like no tomorrow. this puts the terran in a position where he needs to realize whats going on and camp a third. from there its pretty even if the terran does decide to do this. edit: just tried this in single player. at 8::05 i have 10 goons, speed for zealots half way done, 4 zealots about to pop and 7 gateways on line. this should be enough to hold it if i am not mistaking. also, Terran at this push timing has 32 scvs. i have 37 probes and additional mining patches. i can also go up to 9 gateways if need be considering the ongoing battle will allow to continue rebuilding armies without making pylons.
are you on 2 bases or already starting your third? i don't see how its possible to have 7 gateways online and a third base by that timing and having all those units as well.
and i don't think this is a build to be dismissed since hiya showed how it can work out in a pro-game televised environment.
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On November 23 2010 23:00 JMave wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2010 06:29 foppa wrote:On November 22 2010 17:07 Ilikestarcraft wrote:On November 22 2010 05:50 foppa wrote:On November 22 2010 03:44 NeVeR wrote:
@foppa: Okay, well if toss neither techs to arbiter nor makes a third nexus, and just makes like 5+ gateways of units on two bases, then yeah, the push probably isn't going to work. But if the toss is any decent, he's not going to two base without arbiter tech unless he expects a fast push like that. Not sure at what level you play, but when I used to play at the C+/B- levels, toss players would very rarely go 2 base with no stargate tech. this season im playing at like a b- level (most of the time lol). i open pretty standard 2 gate obs everysingle game. its impossible to get turrets above your factory before my obs unless you put yourself so far behind. from there i cant always keep my gateway count above the factory count. if i cut probes and you cut scvs, i end up ahead if youre trying to attack me. although, more than willing to practice with anyone doing this build! also im dismissing it as viable! its just that from i understand right now, 2 gate obs double expo would allow me to get 7 gateways in time to defend this I'm not a great player at tvp nor do I have any high level of understanding of tvp. So if there seems to be anything you disagree with, feel free to point it out. I agree that any 1 gate/2 gate robo then expo build would have obs fast enough to keep on the terran's fact count. But doesn't this delay your nexus relative to the terran's expo. I think you would have start your nexus when terran lands his command center at his nat. When your obs get in his main you're a bit behind for playing so safe that you would have to do damage with some reaver follow up or take your third really fast which I think the strat Hiya used would do very well against. you would only do a reaver follow up if you see no turrets. you put yourself behind for playing safe but you are in a great position to add your gateways at the appropriate time. by the time his 4 factories are down my 3rd will be up and running (double expo of 6 goons) and i can cut probes immediately after seeing the speed at which the terran adds his factories. i this point i can afford 7 gateways and the citadel with legs. from here, im in a great position to defend. if i do choose to go reaver because i see a lack of turrets, i can stall with the reaver to wait for the gateways to kick in (it slows your gate count down a bit). to sum it up: ill have really really shitty saturation of 3 bases but it will be safe to defend this push and after the threat is gone, i can power probes like no tomorrow. this puts the terran in a position where he needs to realize whats going on and camp a third. from there its pretty even if the terran does decide to do this. edit: just tried this in single player. at 8::05 i have 10 goons, speed for zealots half way done, 4 zealots about to pop and 7 gateways on line. this should be enough to hold it if i am not mistaking. also, Terran at this push timing has 32 scvs. i have 37 probes and additional mining patches. i can also go up to 9 gateways if need be considering the ongoing battle will allow to continue rebuilding armies without making pylons. are you on 2 bases or already starting your third? i don't see how its possible to have 7 gateways online and a third base by that timing and having all those units as well. and i don't think this is a build to be dismissed since hiya showed how it can work out in a pro-game televised environment.
my 3rd is long done at this point. im not disagreeing that it isnt viable. im disagreeing with the op saying its basically autowin against anything. its just a matter of reacting to the situation. i will admit it seems to be a pretty hard counter to any early tech by protoss or protoss overpowering and being greedy
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Uhhh, please point out where I said the build is "autowin against anything". I had no intention of saying anything like that. The build is a great surprise attack that will usually work the first time, but I would never do this build twice in a row against the same person.
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On November 23 2010 06:29 foppa wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2010 17:07 Ilikestarcraft wrote:On November 22 2010 05:50 foppa wrote:On November 22 2010 03:44 NeVeR wrote:
@foppa: Okay, well if toss neither techs to arbiter nor makes a third nexus, and just makes like 5+ gateways of units on two bases, then yeah, the push probably isn't going to work. But if the toss is any decent, he's not going to two base without arbiter tech unless he expects a fast push like that. Not sure at what level you play, but when I used to play at the C+/B- levels, toss players would very rarely go 2 base with no stargate tech. this season im playing at like a b- level (most of the time lol). i open pretty standard 2 gate obs everysingle game. its impossible to get turrets above your factory before my obs unless you put yourself so far behind. from there i cant always keep my gateway count above the factory count. if i cut probes and you cut scvs, i end up ahead if youre trying to attack me. although, more than willing to practice with anyone doing this build! also im dismissing it as viable! its just that from i understand right now, 2 gate obs double expo would allow me to get 7 gateways in time to defend this I'm not a great player at tvp nor do I have any high level of understanding of tvp. So if there seems to be anything you disagree with, feel free to point it out. I agree that any 1 gate/2 gate robo then expo build would have obs fast enough to keep on the terran's fact count. But doesn't this delay your nexus relative to the terran's expo. I think you would have start your nexus when terran lands his command center at his nat. When your obs get in his main you're a bit behind for playing so safe that you would have to do damage with some reaver follow up or take your third really fast which I think the strat Hiya used would do very well against. you would only do a reaver follow up if you see no turrets. you put yourself behind for playing safe but you are in a great position to add your gateways at the appropriate time. by the time his 4 factories are down my 3rd will be up and running (double expo of 6 goons) and i can cut probes immediately after seeing the speed at which the terran adds his factories. i this point i can afford 7 gateways and the citadel with legs. from here, im in a great position to defend. if i do choose to go reaver because i see a lack of turrets, i can stall with the reaver to wait for the gateways to kick in (it slows your gate count down a bit). to sum it up: ill have really really shitty saturation of 3 bases but it will be safe to defend this push and after the threat is gone, i can power probes like no tomorrow. this puts the terran in a position where he needs to realize whats going on and camp a third. from there its pretty even if the terran does decide to do this. edit: just tried this in single player. at 8::05 i have 10 goons, speed for zealots half way done, 4 zealots about to pop and 7 gateways on line. this should be enough to hold it if i am not mistaking. also, Terran at this push timing has 32 scvs. i have 37 probes and additional mining patches. i can also go up to 9 gateways if need be considering the ongoing battle will allow to continue rebuilding armies without making pylons.
About what time do you take your 3rd with that build?
Right now my strongest build is a 2fac joyo push that hits around 5:45-6:00. I intuitively feel like if you are taking your 3rd early enough to have it up for this 8min push, then you would be vulnerable to the 2fac timing, if not scouted correctly. Am I right about that?
I realize both of these builds are quite all-in, but I'm just trying to get some solid blind-counter builds to take 1 or 2 games off my toss friends (who are quite a bit better than me). I feel like if they have to defend from a possible 2fac and a possible 4fac, I might be able to play some decent mind games!
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Australia7069 Posts
if you're doing a 2 fac he'll scout it with his obs(he opens 2 gate obs) and adjust accordingly (probably just add an extra gate or two, crush your push and THEN double expand)
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On November 24 2010 17:37 CakeOrI)eath wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2010 06:29 foppa wrote:On November 22 2010 17:07 Ilikestarcraft wrote:On November 22 2010 05:50 foppa wrote:On November 22 2010 03:44 NeVeR wrote:
@foppa: Okay, well if toss neither techs to arbiter nor makes a third nexus, and just makes like 5+ gateways of units on two bases, then yeah, the push probably isn't going to work. But if the toss is any decent, he's not going to two base without arbiter tech unless he expects a fast push like that. Not sure at what level you play, but when I used to play at the C+/B- levels, toss players would very rarely go 2 base with no stargate tech. this season im playing at like a b- level (most of the time lol). i open pretty standard 2 gate obs everysingle game. its impossible to get turrets above your factory before my obs unless you put yourself so far behind. from there i cant always keep my gateway count above the factory count. if i cut probes and you cut scvs, i end up ahead if youre trying to attack me. although, more than willing to practice with anyone doing this build! also im dismissing it as viable! its just that from i understand right now, 2 gate obs double expo would allow me to get 7 gateways in time to defend this I'm not a great player at tvp nor do I have any high level of understanding of tvp. So if there seems to be anything you disagree with, feel free to point it out. I agree that any 1 gate/2 gate robo then expo build would have obs fast enough to keep on the terran's fact count. But doesn't this delay your nexus relative to the terran's expo. I think you would have start your nexus when terran lands his command center at his nat. When your obs get in his main you're a bit behind for playing so safe that you would have to do damage with some reaver follow up or take your third really fast which I think the strat Hiya used would do very well against. you would only do a reaver follow up if you see no turrets. you put yourself behind for playing safe but you are in a great position to add your gateways at the appropriate time. by the time his 4 factories are down my 3rd will be up and running (double expo of 6 goons) and i can cut probes immediately after seeing the speed at which the terran adds his factories. i this point i can afford 7 gateways and the citadel with legs. from here, im in a great position to defend. if i do choose to go reaver because i see a lack of turrets, i can stall with the reaver to wait for the gateways to kick in (it slows your gate count down a bit). to sum it up: ill have really really shitty saturation of 3 bases but it will be safe to defend this push and after the threat is gone, i can power probes like no tomorrow. this puts the terran in a position where he needs to realize whats going on and camp a third. from there its pretty even if the terran does decide to do this. edit: just tried this in single player. at 8::05 i have 10 goons, speed for zealots half way done, 4 zealots about to pop and 7 gateways on line. this should be enough to hold it if i am not mistaking. also, Terran at this push timing has 32 scvs. i have 37 probes and additional mining patches. i can also go up to 9 gateways if need be considering the ongoing battle will allow to continue rebuilding armies without making pylons. About what time do you take your 3rd with that build? Right now my strongest build is a 2fac joyo push that hits around 5:45-6:00. I intuitively feel like if you are taking your 3rd early enough to have it up for this 8min push, then you would be vulnerable to the 2fac timing, if not scouted correctly. Am I right about that? I realize both of these builds are quite all-in, but I'm just trying to get some solid blind-counter builds to take 1 or 2 games off my toss friends (who are quite a bit better than me). I feel like if they have to defend from a possible 2fac and a possible 4fac, I might be able to play some decent mind games!
well if i see a 2 fact with my obs obviously im not going to take my 3rd. in that case ill go straight to reaver and continue pumping dragoons adding a shield battery at my natural.
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On November 24 2010 17:52 Kiante wrote:
if you're doing a 2 fac he'll scout it with his obs(he opens 2 gate obs) and adjust accordingly (probably just add an extra gate or two, crush your push and THEN double expand)
Maybe the people I'm playing at D/D+ don't have the timing on their 2gate obs perfect, but I'm generally moving out just as the obs is popping out (see replay below). I'm going to be most of the way to his base before his obs sees my 2fac. He's gonna have to scout it some other way if he wants to be able to make a drastic change to his build before then.
Example game: http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=39299
From what I've seen, 2gate builds can come out with an advantage vs my 2fac, but they either have to micro like a champ and pick off tanks without losing too many goons OR break my contain with good zealot bombs.
I was more curious as to the timing of his 3rd base. I've seen a toss take a 3rd with only 3goons. How late can you take it and still close the timing window vs this 4fac? If you are opening 2gate obs -> double expand don't you have to cut goons to get both expos up? Too early and you are vulnerable to the 2fac (even if you haven't taken your 3rd yet, you might still have a low goon count). Do these window's overlap or is there a perfect time for toss to take their 3rd and be safe from both of these?
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Australia7069 Posts
what he's saying is the double expo doesn't occur till the obs gets to the base, it doesn't see anything fishy the double expo happens, if it does, changes occur, thats the beauty of the build, you get full info before making a decision.
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Side remark: nice replay from a time when KuSH was actually good at TvP. Now he seems to have fallen off of the bandwagon in every matchup.
Ok, back to ringside.
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On November 25 2010 08:14 Kiante wrote:
what he's saying is the double expo doesn't occur till the obs gets to the base, it doesn't see anything fishy the double expo happens, if it does, changes occur, thats the beauty of the build, you get full info before making a decision.
Ah, thanks. Makes more sense now.
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But this build you're showing seems indeed to be better against 2 base arbiter. Only issues im thinking about is how it would fare against early 3 base and how do you found out in time so you can adept to a 4 factory timing push like this against a 2 base arbiter? What are the things you look for when you scout? Pro's don't scout for it they just "sense" it as it seems.
?
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On November 25 2010 21:52 ZeKk wrote:Show nested quote +But this build you're showing seems indeed to be better against 2 base arbiter. Only issues im thinking about is how it would fare against early 3 base and how do you found out in time so you can adept to a 4 factory timing push like this against a 2 base arbiter? What are the things you look for when you scout? Pro's don't scout for it they just "sense" it as it seems. ?
im pretty sure what he means is:
-is it viable vs fast 3rd protosses..... which is clearly a yes
-since this build requires a lot of scv cutting from the beginning, how do you scout a 2 base arbiter in time so that you can already be making the necessary adjustments to execute this version of the 4 fac?
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The 6gate goon double expo obviously has enough units to hold any kind of 4fact.
What it gets hard countered by is fac CC fac -> 2fac attack. Of course, if you, seeing delayed e-bay, opt for reaver before 3rd, it's an even game, but if you take a 3rd you'll find yourself with ~8 goons vs ~5tank + minevult/rine/scv at your door.
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On November 26 2010 11:48 Soulforged wrote:
The 6gate goon double expo obviously has enough units to hold any kind of 4fact.
What it gets hard countered by is fac CC fac -> 2fac attack. Of course, if you, seeing delayed e-bay, opt for reaver before 3rd, it's an even game, but if you take a 3rd you'll find yourself with ~8 goons vs ~5tank + minevult/rine/scv at your door.
i feel like 6 gate goon "double expo" really counts as a 2 base build considering how late the 3rd is compared to say, a 2 gate 3rd build... in this case, terran would probably just match his 3rd and use units to push defensively instead of attacking.
also, i dont see how fac-cc-fac is a counter to a 6 gate goon if that is indeed what you are saying. it is dependent on the opening build order of the toss.... 2 gate expo or 1 gate expo 2nd gate before robo would stop a fac-cc-fac regardless of whether you decided to stay on 2 gates or 6 gates to take your 3rd. a 1 gate expo robo or 1 gate robo expo should die to fac-cc-fac.
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EPT
