This is an awesome tvp mid-game 2-base all-in that Hiya used against Shuttle back in 2009 Proleague.
By cutting a lot of SCVs, the build allows you to move out with 8 tanks, 4 vultures, and 4 marines at about 8:05. It is safe against any kind of early game cheese other than a toss who rushes straight for DT, making only 1 or 2 goons and skipping the range upgrade.
Back in 2009 I had to watch the above VOD several times and do a bunch of tests in single player to figure out how to execute the build exactly as Hiya did it. I wrote all the steps down in a notebook. When playing on Fighting Spirit in the iCCup ladder, I would win something like 9 out of 10 games with this build. Even though I was only B- high, I never lost against an A- level foreigner when doing this build for the first time vs them. Since I don't ladder anymore, I thought I'd share it with the few TL terrans left that still do. Here it is, just as it's written in my notebook:
-12 refinery -16 fact -27 cc (26 if scouting SCV dies) -one SCV after second tank (30 supply), then cut SCVs for siege upgrade, e-bay, third tank, and second factory -cut SCVs for turrets (4 max), tanks 6 and 7, factories 3 and 4, academy, 8th tank, vulture speed upgrade, 4 vults, mines upgrade, comsats -when you move out at 8:05, your supply should be 60/68 *note* you never take SCVs off gas
The BO is not precise since I don't include when to make depots, but with a bit of practice you should be able to figure that out on your own. Note that this build is most effective on Fighting Spirit, since you can float your e-bay and barracks to the protoss as you move out and wall off at his natural, as seen in the VOD. After that, he will either do one of two things: he will suicide his whole army in an attempt to break your contain, or he will try to recall in your main. If it's the latter, you need to move a bunch of your units back to your base in time to defend.
yea its just that i only watched the vod and from that i can see its a good build vs fast arbiter. but, its pretty blind against early gateway builds. the factory timing wasnt all that special it was just the lack of gateways on shuttle's side
If you're moving out @ 8:05 , is he really recalling at this time? Also, 4fact is really just a standard push and if you're cutting scvs after turret to add them, I don't really see this working, unless they did 1gate 2nexus.
@foppa: Okay, well if toss neither techs to arbiter nor makes a third nexus, and just makes like 5+ gateways of units on two bases, then yeah, the push probably isn't going to work. But if the toss is any decent, he's not going to two base without arbiter tech unless he expects a fast push like that. Not sure at what level you play, but when I used to play at the C+/B- levels, toss players would very rarely go 2 base with no stargate tech.
@dRaW: This isn't a standard 4-fact. The push moves out MUCH sooner than a standard 4-fact (almost a minute sooner). And of course he isn't recalling at 8:05.. lol, come on, that's ridiculous. I was talking about after you pushed out and killed his natural expo.
I'm kind of surprised that people are so quickly dismissing this build without even trying it. This isn't just some gimmick that a noob like myself came up with. This is a progamer build ffs.
The point about recalling was that after you kill his natural, if he was going 2base arb he will get an arbiter out soon and since you did a lower-econ 4fact you'll still only have 2 bases like Hiya did when he was just massing outside. The point is that although you can kill a nat easily, it can be relatively difficult/costly to push a P's ramp so you should just wait him out until he tries the recall.
I'd never heard of any standarization 4 fact timing push that hits at around the 9 minute mark? Then it would be more resonable to try out the 5-factory timing push if you hit that late with a 4 factory push. The Standard 4-facting timing push Im using, you move out from base at 7:30. Taken from Light vs dream.t)jangbi on Andromeda. This build was designed to hinder the third base from protoss. Not so good agianst 2 base arbiter.
But this build you're showing seems indeed to be better against 2 base arbiter. Only issues im thinking about is how it would fare against early 3 base and how do you found out in time so you can adept to a 4 factory timing push like this against a 2 base arbiter? What are the things you look for when you scout? Pro's don't scout for it they just "sense" it as it seems.
On November 22 2010 03:44 NeVeR wrote: @foppa: Okay, well if toss neither techs to arbiter nor makes a third nexus, and just makes like 5+ gateways of units on two bases, then yeah, the push probably isn't going to work. But if the toss is any decent, he's not going to two base without arbiter tech unless he expects a fast push like that. Not sure at what level you play, but when I used to play at the C+/B- levels, toss players would very rarely go 2 base with no stargate tech.
this season im playing at like a b- level (most of the time lol). i open pretty standard 2 gate obs everysingle game. its impossible to get turrets above your factory before my obs unless you put yourself so far behind. from there i cant always keep my gateway count above the factory count. if i cut probes and you cut scvs, i end up ahead if youre trying to attack me. although, more than willing to practice with anyone doing this build!
also im dismissing it as viable! its just that from i understand right now, 2 gate obs double expo would allow me to get 7 gateways in time to defend this
to me, it seemed that hiya had to micro very well. his turret placement was also key in deny scouting info for critical period and keeping shuttle in the dark. it seemed that he had to be able to push out really well.
On November 22 2010 03:44 NeVeR wrote: @foppa: Okay, well if toss neither techs to arbiter nor makes a third nexus, and just makes like 5+ gateways of units on two bases, then yeah, the push probably isn't going to work. But if the toss is any decent, he's not going to two base without arbiter tech unless he expects a fast push like that. Not sure at what level you play, but when I used to play at the C+/B- levels, toss players would very rarely go 2 base with no stargate tech.
this season im playing at like a b- level (most of the time lol). i open pretty standard 2 gate obs everysingle game. its impossible to get turrets above your factory before my obs unless you put yourself so far behind. from there i cant always keep my gateway count above the factory count. if i cut probes and you cut scvs, i end up ahead if youre trying to attack me. although, more than willing to practice with anyone doing this build!
also im dismissing it as viable! its just that from i understand right now, 2 gate obs double expo would allow me to get 7 gateways in time to defend this
Ya, Hiya's build works better against certain builds and on certain maps...that's not something new or insightful. Take Hiya's game and Never's personal information on the build for what it's worth. Nobody is trying to say this build is the be all and end all to TvP it's just a very powerful build on Fighting Spirit against common protoss openings, that's all.
On November 22 2010 03:44 NeVeR wrote: @foppa: Okay, well if toss neither techs to arbiter nor makes a third nexus, and just makes like 5+ gateways of units on two bases, then yeah, the push probably isn't going to work. But if the toss is any decent, he's not going to two base without arbiter tech unless he expects a fast push like that. Not sure at what level you play, but when I used to play at the C+/B- levels, toss players would very rarely go 2 base with no stargate tech.
this season im playing at like a b- level (most of the time lol). i open pretty standard 2 gate obs everysingle game. its impossible to get turrets above your factory before my obs unless you put yourself so far behind. from there i cant always keep my gateway count above the factory count. if i cut probes and you cut scvs, i end up ahead if youre trying to attack me. although, more than willing to practice with anyone doing this build!
also im dismissing it as viable! its just that from i understand right now, 2 gate obs double expo would allow me to get 7 gateways in time to defend this
I'm not a great player at tvp nor do I have any high level of understanding of tvp. So if there seems to be anything you disagree with, feel free to point it out. I agree that any 1 gate/2 gate robo then expo build would have obs fast enough to keep on the terran's fact count. But doesn't this delay your nexus relative to the terran's expo. I think you would have start your nexus when terran lands his command center at his nat. When your obs get in his main you're a bit behind for playing so safe that you would have to do damage with some reaver follow up or take your third really fast which I think the strat Hiya used would do very well against.
I experimented with timing pushes TvP for like 2 years in broodwar. This build is really good but it's pretty allin. If you don't win you're kind of owned but it has such a good chance to win it's not TOO risky. And if the toss just power 2base and adds tons of quick gates you can camp and go for your 3rd and not be that far behind because the toss stays on 2base for so long to counter it.
On November 22 2010 03:44 NeVeR wrote: @foppa: Okay, well if toss neither techs to arbiter nor makes a third nexus, and just makes like 5+ gateways of units on two bases, then yeah, the push probably isn't going to work. But if the toss is any decent, he's not going to two base without arbiter tech unless he expects a fast push like that. Not sure at what level you play, but when I used to play at the C+/B- levels, toss players would very rarely go 2 base with no stargate tech.
this season im playing at like a b- level (most of the time lol). i open pretty standard 2 gate obs everysingle game. its impossible to get turrets above your factory before my obs unless you put yourself so far behind. from there i cant always keep my gateway count above the factory count. if i cut probes and you cut scvs, i end up ahead if youre trying to attack me. although, more than willing to practice with anyone doing this build!
also im dismissing it as viable! its just that from i understand right now, 2 gate obs double expo would allow me to get 7 gateways in time to defend this
I'm not a great player at tvp nor do I have any high level of understanding of tvp. So if there seems to be anything you disagree with, feel free to point it out. I agree that any 1 gate/2 gate robo then expo build would have obs fast enough to keep on the terran's fact count. But doesn't this delay your nexus relative to the terran's expo. I think you would have start your nexus when terran lands his command center at his nat. When your obs get in his main you're a bit behind for playing so safe that you would have to do damage with some reaver follow up or take your third really fast which I think the strat Hiya used would do very well against.
you would only do a reaver follow up if you see no turrets. you put yourself behind for playing safe but you are in a great position to add your gateways at the appropriate time. by the time his 4 factories are down my 3rd will be up and running (double expo of 6 goons) and i can cut probes immediately after seeing the speed at which the terran adds his factories. i this point i can afford 7 gateways and the citadel with legs. from here, im in a great position to defend. if i do choose to go reaver because i see a lack of turrets, i can stall with the reaver to wait for the gateways to kick in (it slows your gate count down a bit).
to sum it up: ill have really really shitty saturation of 3 bases but it will be safe to defend this push and after the threat is gone, i can power probes like no tomorrow. this puts the terran in a position where he needs to realize whats going on and camp a third. from there its pretty even if the terran does decide to do this.
edit: just tried this in single player. at 8::05 i have 10 goons, speed for zealots half way done, 4 zealots about to pop and 7 gateways on line. this should be enough to hold it if i am not mistaking. also, Terran at this push timing has 32 scvs. i have 37 probes and additional mining patches. i can also go up to 9 gateways if need be considering the ongoing battle will allow to continue rebuilding armies without making pylons.
I tried this build with an earlier academy and 2nd gas and skipped ebay after being fairly certain of no reaver. The SCV cutting makes it a delightful surprise, but I bet a P more familiar with it would start powering gateways after seeing the natural's saturation with obs.
p.s. I rate this build 5 out of 5 for killing an innocent Kiante.
On November 22 2010 03:44 NeVeR wrote: @foppa: Okay, well if toss neither techs to arbiter nor makes a third nexus, and just makes like 5+ gateways of units on two bases, then yeah, the push probably isn't going to work. But if the toss is any decent, he's not going to two base without arbiter tech unless he expects a fast push like that. Not sure at what level you play, but when I used to play at the C+/B- levels, toss players would very rarely go 2 base with no stargate tech.
this season im playing at like a b- level (most of the time lol). i open pretty standard 2 gate obs everysingle game. its impossible to get turrets above your factory before my obs unless you put yourself so far behind. from there i cant always keep my gateway count above the factory count. if i cut probes and you cut scvs, i end up ahead if youre trying to attack me. although, more than willing to practice with anyone doing this build!
also im dismissing it as viable! its just that from i understand right now, 2 gate obs double expo would allow me to get 7 gateways in time to defend this
I'm not a great player at tvp nor do I have any high level of understanding of tvp. So if there seems to be anything you disagree with, feel free to point it out. I agree that any 1 gate/2 gate robo then expo build would have obs fast enough to keep on the terran's fact count. But doesn't this delay your nexus relative to the terran's expo. I think you would have start your nexus when terran lands his command center at his nat. When your obs get in his main you're a bit behind for playing so safe that you would have to do damage with some reaver follow up or take your third really fast which I think the strat Hiya used would do very well against.
you would only do a reaver follow up if you see no turrets. you put yourself behind for playing safe but you are in a great position to add your gateways at the appropriate time. by the time his 4 factories are down my 3rd will be up and running (double expo of 6 goons) and i can cut probes immediately after seeing the speed at which the terran adds his factories. i this point i can afford 7 gateways and the citadel with legs. from here, im in a great position to defend. if i do choose to go reaver because i see a lack of turrets, i can stall with the reaver to wait for the gateways to kick in (it slows your gate count down a bit).
to sum it up: ill have really really shitty saturation of 3 bases but it will be safe to defend this push and after the threat is gone, i can power probes like no tomorrow. this puts the terran in a position where he needs to realize whats going on and camp a third. from there its pretty even if the terran does decide to do this.
edit: just tried this in single player. at 8::05 i have 10 goons, speed for zealots half way done, 4 zealots about to pop and 7 gateways on line. this should be enough to hold it if i am not mistaking. also, Terran at this push timing has 32 scvs. i have 37 probes and additional mining patches. i can also go up to 9 gateways if need be considering the ongoing battle will allow to continue rebuilding armies without making pylons.
are you on 2 bases or already starting your third? i don't see how its possible to have 7 gateways online and a third base by that timing and having all those units as well.
and i don't think this is a build to be dismissed since hiya showed how it can work out in a pro-game televised environment.
On November 22 2010 03:44 NeVeR wrote: @foppa: Okay, well if toss neither techs to arbiter nor makes a third nexus, and just makes like 5+ gateways of units on two bases, then yeah, the push probably isn't going to work. But if the toss is any decent, he's not going to two base without arbiter tech unless he expects a fast push like that. Not sure at what level you play, but when I used to play at the C+/B- levels, toss players would very rarely go 2 base with no stargate tech.
this season im playing at like a b- level (most of the time lol). i open pretty standard 2 gate obs everysingle game. its impossible to get turrets above your factory before my obs unless you put yourself so far behind. from there i cant always keep my gateway count above the factory count. if i cut probes and you cut scvs, i end up ahead if youre trying to attack me. although, more than willing to practice with anyone doing this build!
also im dismissing it as viable! its just that from i understand right now, 2 gate obs double expo would allow me to get 7 gateways in time to defend this
I'm not a great player at tvp nor do I have any high level of understanding of tvp. So if there seems to be anything you disagree with, feel free to point it out. I agree that any 1 gate/2 gate robo then expo build would have obs fast enough to keep on the terran's fact count. But doesn't this delay your nexus relative to the terran's expo. I think you would have start your nexus when terran lands his command center at his nat. When your obs get in his main you're a bit behind for playing so safe that you would have to do damage with some reaver follow up or take your third really fast which I think the strat Hiya used would do very well against.
you would only do a reaver follow up if you see no turrets. you put yourself behind for playing safe but you are in a great position to add your gateways at the appropriate time. by the time his 4 factories are down my 3rd will be up and running (double expo of 6 goons) and i can cut probes immediately after seeing the speed at which the terran adds his factories. i this point i can afford 7 gateways and the citadel with legs. from here, im in a great position to defend. if i do choose to go reaver because i see a lack of turrets, i can stall with the reaver to wait for the gateways to kick in (it slows your gate count down a bit).
to sum it up: ill have really really shitty saturation of 3 bases but it will be safe to defend this push and after the threat is gone, i can power probes like no tomorrow. this puts the terran in a position where he needs to realize whats going on and camp a third. from there its pretty even if the terran does decide to do this.
edit: just tried this in single player. at 8::05 i have 10 goons, speed for zealots half way done, 4 zealots about to pop and 7 gateways on line. this should be enough to hold it if i am not mistaking. also, Terran at this push timing has 32 scvs. i have 37 probes and additional mining patches. i can also go up to 9 gateways if need be considering the ongoing battle will allow to continue rebuilding armies without making pylons.
are you on 2 bases or already starting your third? i don't see how its possible to have 7 gateways online and a third base by that timing and having all those units as well.
and i don't think this is a build to be dismissed since hiya showed how it can work out in a pro-game televised environment.
my 3rd is long done at this point. im not disagreeing that it isnt viable. im disagreeing with the op saying its basically autowin against anything. its just a matter of reacting to the situation. i will admit it seems to be a pretty hard counter to any early tech by protoss or protoss overpowering and being greedy
Uhhh, please point out where I said the build is "autowin against anything". I had no intention of saying anything like that. The build is a great surprise attack that will usually work the first time, but I would never do this build twice in a row against the same person.
On November 22 2010 03:44 NeVeR wrote: @foppa: Okay, well if toss neither techs to arbiter nor makes a third nexus, and just makes like 5+ gateways of units on two bases, then yeah, the push probably isn't going to work. But if the toss is any decent, he's not going to two base without arbiter tech unless he expects a fast push like that. Not sure at what level you play, but when I used to play at the C+/B- levels, toss players would very rarely go 2 base with no stargate tech.
this season im playing at like a b- level (most of the time lol). i open pretty standard 2 gate obs everysingle game. its impossible to get turrets above your factory before my obs unless you put yourself so far behind. from there i cant always keep my gateway count above the factory count. if i cut probes and you cut scvs, i end up ahead if youre trying to attack me. although, more than willing to practice with anyone doing this build!
also im dismissing it as viable! its just that from i understand right now, 2 gate obs double expo would allow me to get 7 gateways in time to defend this
I'm not a great player at tvp nor do I have any high level of understanding of tvp. So if there seems to be anything you disagree with, feel free to point it out. I agree that any 1 gate/2 gate robo then expo build would have obs fast enough to keep on the terran's fact count. But doesn't this delay your nexus relative to the terran's expo. I think you would have start your nexus when terran lands his command center at his nat. When your obs get in his main you're a bit behind for playing so safe that you would have to do damage with some reaver follow up or take your third really fast which I think the strat Hiya used would do very well against.
you would only do a reaver follow up if you see no turrets. you put yourself behind for playing safe but you are in a great position to add your gateways at the appropriate time. by the time his 4 factories are down my 3rd will be up and running (double expo of 6 goons) and i can cut probes immediately after seeing the speed at which the terran adds his factories. i this point i can afford 7 gateways and the citadel with legs. from here, im in a great position to defend. if i do choose to go reaver because i see a lack of turrets, i can stall with the reaver to wait for the gateways to kick in (it slows your gate count down a bit).
to sum it up: ill have really really shitty saturation of 3 bases but it will be safe to defend this push and after the threat is gone, i can power probes like no tomorrow. this puts the terran in a position where he needs to realize whats going on and camp a third. from there its pretty even if the terran does decide to do this.
edit: just tried this in single player. at 8::05 i have 10 goons, speed for zealots half way done, 4 zealots about to pop and 7 gateways on line. this should be enough to hold it if i am not mistaking. also, Terran at this push timing has 32 scvs. i have 37 probes and additional mining patches. i can also go up to 9 gateways if need be considering the ongoing battle will allow to continue rebuilding armies without making pylons.
About what time do you take your 3rd with that build? Right now my strongest build is a 2fac joyo push that hits around 5:45-6:00. I intuitively feel like if you are taking your 3rd early enough to have it up for this 8min push, then you would be vulnerable to the 2fac timing, if not scouted correctly. Am I right about that?
I realize both of these builds are quite all-in, but I'm just trying to get some solid blind-counter builds to take 1 or 2 games off my toss friends (who are quite a bit better than me). I feel like if they have to defend from a possible 2fac and a possible 4fac, I might be able to play some decent mind games!
if you're doing a 2 fac he'll scout it with his obs(he opens 2 gate obs) and adjust accordingly (probably just add an extra gate or two, crush your push and THEN double expand)
On November 22 2010 03:44 NeVeR wrote: @foppa: Okay, well if toss neither techs to arbiter nor makes a third nexus, and just makes like 5+ gateways of units on two bases, then yeah, the push probably isn't going to work. But if the toss is any decent, he's not going to two base without arbiter tech unless he expects a fast push like that. Not sure at what level you play, but when I used to play at the C+/B- levels, toss players would very rarely go 2 base with no stargate tech.
this season im playing at like a b- level (most of the time lol). i open pretty standard 2 gate obs everysingle game. its impossible to get turrets above your factory before my obs unless you put yourself so far behind. from there i cant always keep my gateway count above the factory count. if i cut probes and you cut scvs, i end up ahead if youre trying to attack me. although, more than willing to practice with anyone doing this build!
also im dismissing it as viable! its just that from i understand right now, 2 gate obs double expo would allow me to get 7 gateways in time to defend this
I'm not a great player at tvp nor do I have any high level of understanding of tvp. So if there seems to be anything you disagree with, feel free to point it out. I agree that any 1 gate/2 gate robo then expo build would have obs fast enough to keep on the terran's fact count. But doesn't this delay your nexus relative to the terran's expo. I think you would have start your nexus when terran lands his command center at his nat. When your obs get in his main you're a bit behind for playing so safe that you would have to do damage with some reaver follow up or take your third really fast which I think the strat Hiya used would do very well against.
you would only do a reaver follow up if you see no turrets. you put yourself behind for playing safe but you are in a great position to add your gateways at the appropriate time. by the time his 4 factories are down my 3rd will be up and running (double expo of 6 goons) and i can cut probes immediately after seeing the speed at which the terran adds his factories. i this point i can afford 7 gateways and the citadel with legs. from here, im in a great position to defend. if i do choose to go reaver because i see a lack of turrets, i can stall with the reaver to wait for the gateways to kick in (it slows your gate count down a bit).
to sum it up: ill have really really shitty saturation of 3 bases but it will be safe to defend this push and after the threat is gone, i can power probes like no tomorrow. this puts the terran in a position where he needs to realize whats going on and camp a third. from there its pretty even if the terran does decide to do this.
edit: just tried this in single player. at 8::05 i have 10 goons, speed for zealots half way done, 4 zealots about to pop and 7 gateways on line. this should be enough to hold it if i am not mistaking. also, Terran at this push timing has 32 scvs. i have 37 probes and additional mining patches. i can also go up to 9 gateways if need be considering the ongoing battle will allow to continue rebuilding armies without making pylons.
About what time do you take your 3rd with that build? Right now my strongest build is a 2fac joyo push that hits around 5:45-6:00. I intuitively feel like if you are taking your 3rd early enough to have it up for this 8min push, then you would be vulnerable to the 2fac timing, if not scouted correctly. Am I right about that?
I realize both of these builds are quite all-in, but I'm just trying to get some solid blind-counter builds to take 1 or 2 games off my toss friends (who are quite a bit better than me). I feel like if they have to defend from a possible 2fac and a possible 4fac, I might be able to play some decent mind games!
well if i see a 2 fact with my obs obviously im not going to take my 3rd. in that case ill go straight to reaver and continue pumping dragoons adding a shield battery at my natural.
On November 24 2010 17:52 Kiante wrote: if you're doing a 2 fac he'll scout it with his obs(he opens 2 gate obs) and adjust accordingly (probably just add an extra gate or two, crush your push and THEN double expand)
Maybe the people I'm playing at D/D+ don't have the timing on their 2gate obs perfect, but I'm generally moving out just as the obs is popping out (see replay below). I'm going to be most of the way to his base before his obs sees my 2fac. He's gonna have to scout it some other way if he wants to be able to make a drastic change to his build before then. Example game: http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=39299
From what I've seen, 2gate builds can come out with an advantage vs my 2fac, but they either have to micro like a champ and pick off tanks without losing too many goons OR break my contain with good zealot bombs.
I was more curious as to the timing of his 3rd base. I've seen a toss take a 3rd with only 3goons. How late can you take it and still close the timing window vs this 4fac? If you are opening 2gate obs -> double expand don't you have to cut goons to get both expos up? Too early and you are vulnerable to the 2fac (even if you haven't taken your 3rd yet, you might still have a low goon count). Do these window's overlap or is there a perfect time for toss to take their 3rd and be safe from both of these?
what he's saying is the double expo doesn't occur till the obs gets to the base, it doesn't see anything fishy the double expo happens, if it does, changes occur, thats the beauty of the build, you get full info before making a decision.
On November 25 2010 08:14 Kiante wrote: what he's saying is the double expo doesn't occur till the obs gets to the base, it doesn't see anything fishy the double expo happens, if it does, changes occur, thats the beauty of the build, you get full info before making a decision.
But this build you're showing seems indeed to be better against 2 base arbiter. Only issues im thinking about is how it would fare against early 3 base and how do you found out in time so you can adept to a 4 factory timing push like this against a 2 base arbiter? What are the things you look for when you scout? Pro's don't scout for it they just "sense" it as it seems.
But this build you're showing seems indeed to be better against 2 base arbiter. Only issues im thinking about is how it would fare against early 3 base and how do you found out in time so you can adept to a 4 factory timing push like this against a 2 base arbiter? What are the things you look for when you scout? Pro's don't scout for it they just "sense" it as it seems.
?
im pretty sure what he means is: -is it viable vs fast 3rd protosses..... which is clearly a yes -since this build requires a lot of scv cutting from the beginning, how do you scout a 2 base arbiter in time so that you can already be making the necessary adjustments to execute this version of the 4 fac?
The 6gate goon double expo obviously has enough units to hold any kind of 4fact. What it gets hard countered by is fac CC fac -> 2fac attack. Of course, if you, seeing delayed e-bay, opt for reaver before 3rd, it's an even game, but if you take a 3rd you'll find yourself with ~8 goons vs ~5tank + minevult/rine/scv at your door.
On November 26 2010 11:48 Soulforged wrote: The 6gate goon double expo obviously has enough units to hold any kind of 4fact. What it gets hard countered by is fac CC fac -> 2fac attack. Of course, if you, seeing delayed e-bay, opt for reaver before 3rd, it's an even game, but if you take a 3rd you'll find yourself with ~8 goons vs ~5tank + minevult/rine/scv at your door.
i feel like 6 gate goon "double expo" really counts as a 2 base build considering how late the 3rd is compared to say, a 2 gate 3rd build... in this case, terran would probably just match his 3rd and use units to push defensively instead of attacking.
also, i dont see how fac-cc-fac is a counter to a 6 gate goon if that is indeed what you are saying. it is dependent on the opening build order of the toss.... 2 gate expo or 1 gate expo 2nd gate before robo would stop a fac-cc-fac regardless of whether you decided to stay on 2 gates or 6 gates to take your 3rd. a 1 gate expo robo or 1 gate robo expo should die to fac-cc-fac.
EPT
And you're definitely cutting more than 4 SCVs.
