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Hi,
I bought and started playing StarCraft about 3-4weeks ago, so I'm a total n00b. I've played like 17 matches on iccup, so my actual game experience is very low.
Therefore I'm posting here to ask for help regarding timings and overall game sense. The following replay is a PvP I played, but general advice concerning all matchups are also welcome.
http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=35100
I was going for a fast reaver build. I know there were some minor hiccups in my build order and other mistakes, e.g.:
-allowed the enemy shuttle to get to my mineral line, bad goon placement (reaver killed like 8-10 probes)
-suicided my shuttle+reaver, wtf 
-didn't tactically position (some of) my goons outside my nat in flank positions in case he attacked me, so when he actually did, my goons ended up in a small ball at my choke and his goons in a nice arc to slaughter 'em
-macro (60APM, what did you expect?)
Those are pretty obvious mistakes and I know how to fix 'em, but what I need help with are as follows, in chronological order:
-should I have reacted somehow when I scouted his base with my probe? At that point I was quite sure he was going for a fast reaver like me (which he did)
-should I have gone poke at his ramp/natural with my first 4/5/6 goons? Is it standard to always go peek a bit with your first goons? I'm kinda lost on the whole "threat/aggression" aspect...
-at what point should I have expanded? after my shuttle+reaver? (as long as I don't suicide it  ) I ended up expanding at 64 food...
In Liquipedia, most builds orders are up to just like 17, 20, 33 food, and after that it just says "Transition into this or that." and that's the point were I start to lose it. Expanding/expansion timings especially is an aspect I seem to struggle with.
Thanks in advance!
P.S. If anyone wants to practice with a newbie like me, PM me!
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i suck really badly but i feel that your problems can be fixed as your game sense gets better, which you can do by just playing more. by the time you've gained enough experience, you'll know what to do when you see a certain build, you'll know when to try and bust the ramp and when not to, you'll know when to expand.
same with transitioning, if you become experienced then you'll know what to transition into.
EDIT: sometimes your own experience is not enough; if you try and try but you still cant beat a strategy or figure out how to do something, that's where VODs and the strategy forum come in. but mostly, it's game sense and experience.
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Ok, so I could help with some, but I cant watch the replay right now.
Usually, the standard build for PvP is One Gate Core. This means that in usual PvP matches there wont be any early aggression. As for the Robo Bay, its usual to get reavers. If you already saw that he was going for a reaver shuttle play, you should of positioned some dragoons in your mineral line. This would prevented the loss of probes, unless he risked to lose his shuttle.
Anyways to your questions:
#1 Above (:
#2 Depends which build you went, but in the One Gate Core just scout with your probe
#3 Im not sure about this part, but on my PvT i would expand from a One Gate Core after i have around 3-4 Goons.
For my preference, for PvP, I like to go Dt's, generally just have two gates in the end and pump 2 DT's, go into his base, and during this you should be getting a robo facility incase this isnt a game ender. I would usually go HT's, I prefer Storm over Reavers for me, but thats up to you.
Im still quite new at this game ): I hope i didn't give any misleading pointers.
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I'm gonna watch it now.
edit:
opening build is very tight, good
around 42 production hiccup (idle gateways)
shuttle snipe is almost gg; your whole build evolved around that shuttle with the reaver in it. You shouldnt be contained to your nat, too. Because of supply lines (he has to travel whole map) you will be 2 goons ahead at your nat, you can push him at least till mid map.
his harass wasnt that great, he immidiatly lost reaver. If you still had yours, you could push out now, push him to his choke.
between 42 supply and 65, your average idle production buildings went from about 0 to 2. This means, 2 out of your 5 (3 gates, nex and robo) production buildings where doing nothing, all this time: macro.
Your minerals were quite low though, this is due to the lost 8 probes, and probably one of those idle production buildings was your nexus the whole time: make more probes.
Since your opening build was pretty tight; try this for transitioning. 1) build probes constantly, 2) keep your minerals low, 3) have max 3 gates per nexus (arbitrary, but good enough for you to practice with), 4) take one additional tech level per additional expansion. For example; one base 3 gate reaver, 2 base 6 gate high templar, 3 base 9 gate arbiter, 4 base 12 gate carrier. This is not really good, but if you have no clue yet about transitioning, try it. Expand once minerals allow it (so not at cost of general macro).
Hope this helps!
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lol dude i'm no P player but i'm pretty sure suiciding a shuttle and a reaver isn't a "minor hiccup". but then again if you have such a resilient attitude that losing a shuttle and reaver is just a minor setback, you should get better very quickly.
i'm pretty sure its a bad idea to go reaver AND temp/storm tech from just one base. i've heard some people say storm tech > reaver tech but storm comes a lot later then shuttle+reaver, so most go 2 or 3gate goon builds with reaver into expand. anyways hotkey your shuttle and reaver on 9 or 0 or something, and constantly check on it as if it were your scouting probe. keep it floating above your goons if your not trying to sneak it on the sides of the map to the enemy's base.
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Thanks guys, every post has been very helpful!
That "1 tech per 1 base" seems like a good mindset for a noob like me to start with. Just to check: I'm guessing each of those expansions/bases needs to have gas? So if I take a min only expansion, then it "won't count" 
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indeed tuukster. But the mineral-only base does count for your gateways.
Just keep in mind this is just a way to practice.
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PvP is really dependent on your ability to scout and then gauge your losses and your opponents losses to know who is ahead by how much. This may sound like a stupid/obvious point, but it is very important for mirror match ups. Going 1 gate robo into fast reavers is pretty versatile, so your tech/expo/aggression choices are pretty open. IMO, if you scout him doing the same, I would always place 2-3 dragoons around the edge of your base through which he could enter, and then either get another gate to really mass goons for a push or (my preference) expand and then get another gate to defend. Of course, theirs also the option of getting shuttle speed and really committing to harassment. This can be very strong, particularly if there is some terrain that makes it difficult to defend the minerals line (i.e. maps like outsider, fighting spirit, etc.)
As for transitioning, this is very dependent on your preferences and on your opponents reactions. Generally, don't try to get high templars off 1 gas. Off 2 base, 6 gates in pvp is pretty standard. Arbs rarely come in to pvp unless you're going to super late game with pretty much the entire map claimed. Even then, dark archon feedback can be way stronger since it counters arbs and high templars.
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Thanks for the tips.
I'll just see how far this "1 tech per 1 base"-strategy can take me. If I feel that I had good macro and micro, but still lost the match, I'll know it's time to try out some new strategies, like 2base arbiters in PvT.
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Tell hin while he is playing to Put a HOT key for example alt + 4 to the central gateway in order to hit it and return ti his base and with some clicks to start the production faster another hot key alt + 1 to his units to bet back were he was (macro).
3 Protos cannons placed not together side by side (splash damage from siege, reaver can be avoided) and they can protect his base from vultures, wraiths, etc.
You say you are noobe so is not a crime to block your expansion exit with pylons 3 protos canons again may hold the attacer, he will need more time to brake down and enter and this time you can build zelots if you are behind, goons, etc
Upgrade your Protoss shield Firts is better couse is better than upgrate the armour. pylons they have protosh shield.
some litle details can save you from dissaster.
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On May 07 2010 09:04 Navane wrote:
3) have max 3 gates per nexus (arbitrary, but good enough for you to practice with),
not arbitrary. it is actually the max one base can support without you breaking the bank.
anyway watched the rep:
1. make constant probe production. you were ok but tighten it up more.
2. supply blocked was bad. but that wasnt your main problem.
3. HOLY SHIT YOU LOSE THE REAVER AND SHUTTLE. yea that was the game breaker really.
4. i suggest making the reaver first THEN make the shuttle. reason for this is you made a shuttle first...yet you werent using it. u didnt try to ferry goons to your opponents base. if you made reaver first, you could have used it to play defensively till your expo and shuttle were out.
5. you didnt use your dt that well. should have used to scout out your opponent more or harass their probes (you did it too late).
6.send out your probe to scout them, to see if he is containing you, and gauge if you should expand or not. always run a probe to the enemies choke at least so you know if he is moving out or not.
in conclusion: you losing that reaver ended the game right there. unless you have some gosu moves. but from what i read you dont have the gosu moves. but yea it would have been an interesting game to see what would have happened if the game expanded outside of you losing the reaver. thats how pvp is really. once a player loses his reaver its kinda game (if the opponent knows what he is doing).
*was a protoss player and prefer the reaver over any unit. yea thats right you dts can suck the reaver's scarab balls
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On May 08 2010 06:41 heroyi wrote:
i suggest making the reaver first THEN make the shuttle.
You can start your shuttle while building the robotics support bay too, and you can get your reaver drop few seconds earlier, which can be very important.
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When you are attacting a Terran (i am plaing terran all my life) and he has alote of siege is VERY importan to put your goons in a distance before you try to attact this way they are not geting splash damage. I'm writing this couse when you point them to a place they are getting close and you will need some time to seperate them before the attact.
When you are doing a drop goons, zelots put some dark templars together he will consetrate to the goons and the zelots he need a hot key to scan the area and may not do it couse he see's the damage from the visible units only first the dark templars will make more damage in the end by any unit.
The 3 protoss cannon i wrote you will have to build them near in every expansion nexus and your minerals, they use vulrures to kill your probes, wraiths, etc.
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And before some idiot will say why to put all my goons in some distance, in order the last one to hit the first siege must get them really close THIS exacly is the trick hopfully all his siege will hit only 1 goon and then all of then only 1 goon finaly you have him this way.
if nal_ra, stork, let are chasing ducks as they toled to and they don't have time to help the new kids i can do it.
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I forgot not only the goons and the zelots the trick is based on the siege tanks are fireing all together in the first visible target that 'see' in their distance automatic and then they silence (the need some time to reload a shell) so you need to put your zelots in a line with some infont and some after finaly you will lose only 2 gons and only 2 zelots and you will cover the distance with more fire power than if you send them in luck....
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fanaly the real experinced users they have to stadie the MAP and to choose were the attact can be placed in lines in order to get the maximum effect from the weekness that the siege tanks they have.
Flash all ready doing this you know it ? pay more attention in the line format in the bottom line.
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Okay so like any new player, you must follow this golden rule:
always be spending your minerals/gas on something
So what liquipedia means by "transition into" is that you should make it when you have the money for it, given that your probe and unit productions are constant. If you find that your money is getting high, and you don't know what to spend it on, ask yourself these questions (from highest priority to lowest):
1. am i making units?
2. am i making workers?
3*. how does my tech look?
4. how many gateways do i have?
5*. have i expanded/how many expansion have i taken?
* = #3 and #5 are interchangeable depending on the situation. If you find that your opponent is ahead in bases, you should try to expand to catch up economically. If your base count makes it so that you and your opponent are even economically, then focus more on tech.
here is a general idea of how the base coutn plays out in each matchup for Protoss:
PvP:
equal number of bases: even
up one base: ahead in eco
behind one base: behind in eco
up more than one base: really ahead in eco
PvT
equal number of bases: behind in eco (once it gets to mid game)
up one base: even
behind one base: REALLY behind in eco
up more than one base: ahead in eco
PvZ
equal number of bases: ahead
up one base: more ahead
behind one base: even
up more than one base: even more ahead
hope i helped, and hope i didn't confuse you ^^;
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The other beautifull effect of the lines in goons is you will see them to hit all togethet to hit only 1 tank first.
In the end YES with a small force of goons you can take oute a big force of siege if the line format is right.
I have to ask sorry from Flash i got pissed.
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I forgot you an point the gournd behind the tanks to attact you and you will see the lines of the goons to move hit on target then to move again hit another target so forget about them, press the hot key that you all ready have in the central gateway (i assume the other gateways are arround the centeral) and start the production wille tha battle is taking place.
The timing is importand then you can press alt + 1 to get back to the battle. and make the corrections if it is need it.
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You can maximize the dissadvandage of the siege using a shuttle with some probes inside get it nearest to the siege as you can couse the fix Tarrent missles golias, etc. if you drop only 1 prob at the right spot all the siege will fire together and kill only 1 prob =;-) You have to be fast in the hot keys to do it and not to loose alote of goons to get in the distance after the first drop of the prob use the hot the key to the goons to get them to move the distance that will fire 1 click a hot key to the shuttle and on other.
Or you may put 3 probes at the begining if the lines they are cheep and easy to build. You can make combinations 1 probe to take the fire from all the siege and then drop the reaver you will have the time to take the reaver back to the shuttle without geting hurt.
USE your mind a little in the end the smarter one always win.
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I forgot in the middle game (pro users) the broblem is how to fake an attac with alote of units in a base in order to make the other player to move large amound of forces to the rong place and leave you the 'door' open for the real attact. Protoss have an ability that is called hallucination you can use one carrier and some prist with that abbilitty to multiply the carrier then you can make an attact using only 1 carrier to a place and the carriers cretated with hallucination they are fireing and the orther player he can't see the diffence easy why noobady did it ? You can even bypass the mines problem with some hallucinated zelots that you can drop in a place that you seen with a detector. The hallucinated zelots will drow all the mines above them and the siege that are usyally dehind will blow even their mines if you drop then in the right spot.
I mean protoss they have so mutch abilities and they complaining for dissadvanges ? come on...
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The Protoss can have a reall fun with the wickness of the siege if they move them all together like they usually doing hallucinate red hight templar with me mind cotroll ability make 5 of them and send them all together the real one behind while the others are geting the fire in the right distance can take with mind controll the tank in the middle, it will start to fire at the other tanks the other will blow over and the tanks that are usually side by side.
I mean go figure out what you have and what you can do.
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Gtks, I'll try to use those tactics and tricks when I have the proper control and sufficient APM to do it, while not screwing up my macro 
But I have to disagree about upgrading shields first, I'm quite sure that you should upgrade armor before shield. Regardless of matchup, I think it should go like this: W,A,W,A,W,A,S,S,S. Any input on that, anyone?
Thanks for that guideline about base count, blahman3344.
So PvZ is more about "quality bases" (defend against the mobile zerg army) and PvT is "quantity" (expand against the slower Terran), am I right?
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All your units the have protoss shield, buildings first do the shield and you will remeber me, a nexus with upgrated shield can survive even from a nuclear attact trust me.
Alote of Terran are using a large nuber of vultures and goliasth infront of the tanks a red archon hallucinated to 3-4 can easilly wipe them all out using the mind cotroll to one of then the middle,
i mean basicly the large nuber of their siege will blow them out but that way you can take them oute with 2 clicks in some ocations all of them.
Your macro will not screwing once you have fix the lines with the distance as o told you you need to press the attac button and to point the ground behind his tanks they gonna move until that plase you have pointed in lines sou you can forget about them and with 1 hot key you will return to your base and start the production without to worry about.
Also imagine the possiblity the other to see 12 carriers in one of his exapantions but only 1 real and 12 hallucinated. He will try to move alote nuber of goliaths in there once they start hiting 1 of your curries point them to run back the large number of goliaths usially follow then is time to hit the hot keay alt + 2 to the REAL carriers hiden in another logation and start the real attact if the distance is big we will need alote of time to get back and this time very valiable to you.
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The product to start is really importand in the worst case senario you may loose all of attacing ground forces but he will have heavy casalties also even if he wins the first battle he can't move to your base with little forces if the distance is far (macro attaced) once you started the product wille the battle started your units will start to popup and until to reatch your base you may have same amound of forces to match up he will loose the second battle.
hallucinated units are very importand practly you can make the other player to chase 'ghost' in all of the map this way you win valaiable time to build, to organize an attact, etc.
good luck.
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Weapons upgrade first, then armor. Shield is the most expensive, so its not really worth it in the beginning.
Did you know anything about the damage types in Starcraft?
http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_types
Protoss shield always take full damage. And besides, both zealot and goon have more health than shield. So definitely, upgrade weapons first, shield last, like everyone does.
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So ? 100% is the damage that can do a ghost , vulture, firebat to the shield of a zelot, goon the damage is very low in there this is why they have it to 100% also 100% of an explosive damage that can do a tank in siege mode in one nexus is still very low put down a nexus shield or a pylon. I toled you a nexus can survive an nuke attact if the shield is upgrated.
He is saying he is noobe i toled him do it first couse he needs up the defencive stracture with some pylons blocking the exit and some protoss cannons behind the time that will take the attacer to put down a defencive stratuce like that is very valable time will finaly may save him to build some units in his base and that can may save him.
when you playing with flash it seems to me everybody is a noobe don't you think don't need it ?
anyway fix a shield to 1 at least and then whatever i never played protoss anyway.
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ok now i got it he is saying: W,A,W,A,W,A,S,S,S.
i say: W,S,W,W,A,A,A,S,S.
gray-fox saying: W,W,W, A, A, A , S, S, S
The protoss need the upgrate for the goons to hit longer distance to be done first else are worthless then they need a weapon upgrade from a differnet building that the weapon upgrade to the zelots.
But i spoke about strategy in the gameplay, i don't have any experiece with protoss in that field anyway.
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Please, don't listen to a single advice from Gtks. Either he doesn't have a clue what he is talking about or he is trolling you. Never upgrade shield first, don't waste your time with hallucination, don't clump your untis vs Terran siege tanks.
Here's a piece of advice that is actually usefull: spend your money, make more workers, make more gateways and play more. You said 17 games, right? No offense but that's nothing. You will start to get better around your 500th game.
Edit: Goodluck and Welcome to TL!!!
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On May 08 2010 11:21 Gtks wrote:
Plz edit your posts.
And stop saying crap, if he apply your advices he will become something worse than the biggest noob ever.
Well, yeah, don't listen to Gtks.
1°) Listen Protoss players
2°) Listen players who know what are the strat' to apply with Protoss
3°) Don't listen the others.
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...i sense a troll in the force.
dont listen to gtks...lol
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Yes i guss you are right in the bottom line he will try what ever he can keep him in the Game and gave him some victories and will stay to that. If someone can't get use to do some things from the begining he will never try to do it later.
Anyway I'm done from this threat.
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Hallucinated carriers don't have interceptors..?
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I sense a trolling here. Seriously what Gtks said makes no sense. Suggesting late game unit in mid game play? WTH??
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The goon reaver requires a really good micro, and a gams esense that will thell when to attack and where. I think its better for you to stay on goon obz, that will allow you to have more goons and to expand faster.
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EPT
