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On March 30 2010 03:22 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2010 02:54 zobz wrote: I heard "crazy zerg" mentioned in hyung jun becomes a progamer too. Is it 12 pool/gas muta to four base lurker, or muta to ultra? 2 hatch mass muta to 4 base ultra while getting evo ups
I use it a lot hehe you can spam sunkens at an expo nat while taking its main. It's great if you hate controlling defilers and just want cows fast 
The fast armor upgrade makes the marines USELESS
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I've seen quite a few replays of pro's, gosu euro's, and semi-pro's completing skipping lurk and teching directly to ultra (3/4gas variations). Of course, they have amazing micro and are able to keep their Terran opponents busy in their base.
I also like to use a different variation of fast ultra's vs opponents I know will FE. It goes something like:
12 hat - 11 pool - 14 hat (at a 3rd base/gas)***be sure to delay making sunks as long as possible to get the extra mining time in cause you need to sunk 2 fronts (assuming he scouts it early) while waiting for lurks to morph - 2 lings - 14 gas - Lair - Den (50%Lair) - Immediate Queens nest after Lair - Begin evo at 25% Hive completion - 4 hat at 4th gas - Ultra Cavern (@ 8minute mark) - carapace upgrade and ultra armor upgrade finish at same time (around 9:20 seconds) at which point you should have 7 +4 carapace Ultra's with 18 Crack Lings). You actually hatch the Ultras a bit before the 9minute mark but need a few extra seconds to complete the upgrades. This build usually gets me 100 supply around the 9:45 mark with a 5th Hat added immediately after.
So yea, fast ultra's can definitely work but you have to survive with around 6-7 lurk/sunks to the 9 minute mark for my timing to fit. If you're facing a quicker Terran push you have to make more lurks which slightly delays you.
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On April 04 2010 19:55 11B wrote: I've seen quite a few replays of pro's, gosu euro's, and semi-pro's completing skipping lurk and teching directly to ultra (3/4gas variations). Of course, they have amazing micro and are able to keep their Terran opponents busy in their base.
I also like to use a different variation of fast ultra's vs opponents I know will FE. It goes something like:
12 hat - 11 pool - 14 hat (at a 3rd base/gas)***be sure to delay making sunks as long as possible to get the extra mining time in cause you need to sunk 2 fronts (assuming he scouts it early) while waiting for lurks to morph - 2 lings - 14 gas - Lair - Den (50%Lair) - Immediate Queens nest after Lair - Begin evo at 25% Hive completion - 4 hat at 4th gas - Ultra Cavern (@ 8minute mark) - carapace upgrade and ultra armor upgrade finish at same time (around 9:20 seconds) at which point you should have 7 +4 carapace Ultra's with 18 Crack Lings). You actually hatch the Ultras a bit before the 9minute mark but need a few extra seconds to complete the upgrades. This build usually gets me 100 supply around the 9:45 mark with a 5th Hat added immediately after.
So yea, fast ultra's can definitely work but you have to survive with around 6-7 lurk/sunks to the 9 minute mark for my timing to fit. If you're facing a quicker Terran push you have to make more lurks which slightly delays you.
Your post was good except........... + Show Spoiler +the OP is a Terran player.
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United States2186 Posts
Summary is to listen to ilikestarcraft and koreasilver and ask questions rather than insist on making terribly wrong assertions.
On March 30 2010 03:22 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2010 02:54 zobz wrote: I heard "crazy zerg" mentioned in hyung jun becomes a progamer too. Is it 12 pool/gas muta to four base lurker, or muta to ultra? 2 hatch mass muta to 4 base ultra while getting evo ups
On March 30 2010 03:49 kineSiS- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2010 03:27 koreasilver wrote: Huh? Where does someone go 2hatch mass muta into 4hatch ultras skipping lurkers and defilers? And since was anything other than 3hatch into fast hive skipping lurkers called crazy zerg? Trust me, 2 Hatch muta into 7 Hatch Crazy Zerg works so well. Basically I've been playing Zerg as Terran was not my main race and I basically harass with +1 Carapace as long as I can, which at D+ level is really easy (unless you versed a hacker,which I did) and you get your third, while building sunkens and then near hive you set up 4 Sunkens get a nydus/ultralisk den and you should've at the same time been upgrading carapace and melee attack and basically I can get about 16-19 ultras that way. It's also a quicker timing than 3 Hatch because your third is established before your mutas come out. Also, there isn't a Build Order for Crazy Zerg so I'm assuming from what I've done is get mutalisks and while making mutalisks get +1 Carapace (personal preference) and get dual carapaces for Carapace upgrade and Melee attack upgrade. All the while you should get a third establish and probably get sunkens at natural and third if he decides to go SK Terran and then preceed to establish a Muta/Ling army while creating more sunkens. Eventually what I like to do is save till 2K-2K then with my 7 Hatcheries I mass ultras till no gas then mass lings and also I get scourge.
2 hatch crazy Zerg (muta to ultra) doesn't exist (you simply don't have the production to support the lings you need) unless as ILS said you are playing on something like Blue Storm 1.1 or Fantasy where mutas reign supreme. Either show progamer examples on normal maps or don't go making stuff up. There is no way you are holding a 3rd without lurkers while teching to hive unless you are going allin muta -> guardian.
On April 04 2010 19:55 11B wrote: I also like to use a different variation of fast ultra's vs opponents I know will FE. It goes something like:
12 hat - 11 pool - 14 hat (at a 3rd base/gas)***be sure to delay making sunks as long as possible to get the extra mining time in cause you need to sunk 2 fronts (assuming he scouts it early) while waiting for lurks to morph - 2 lings - 14 gas - Lair - Den (50%Lair) - Immediate Queens nest after Lair - Begin evo at 25% Hive completion - 4 hat at 4th gas - Ultra Cavern (@ 8minute mark) - carapace upgrade and ultra armor upgrade finish at same time (around 9:20 seconds) at which point you should have 7 +4 carapace Ultra's with 18 Crack Lings). You actually hatch the Ultras a bit before the 9minute mark but need a few extra seconds to complete the upgrades. This build usually gets me 100 supply around the 9:45 mark with a 5th Hat added immediately after.
So yea, fast ultra's can definitely work but you have to survive with around 6-7 lurk/sunks to the 9 minute mark for my timing to fit. If you're facing a quicker Terran push you have to make more lurks which slightly delays you.
This will not work at all versus anyone knowledgeable. Putting 3rd hatch at 3rd base simply isn't practical unless it is on a Loki/Andro map because they threaten at two spots with 4 rax and your econ will be worse off than if you just played normally. This is further magnified by not even making mutas.
For those interested in playing crazy Zerg, here are some games to look at:
http://yaoyuan.com/show.php?SID=58541 (flash/savior andro) Savior vs Hwasin Katrina Jaedong vs Flash Odd Eye
Sorry more aren't coming to mind right away but a lot of the games by strong Zergs on Andro should have it.
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On April 04 2010 19:55 11B wrote: I've seen quite a few replays of pro's, gosu euro's, and semi-pro's completing skipping lurk and teching directly to ultra (3/4gas variations). Of course, they have amazing micro and are able to keep their Terran opponents busy in their base.
I also like to use a different variation of fast ultra's vs opponents I know will FE. It goes something like:
12 hat - 11 pool - 14 hat (at a 3rd base/gas)***be sure to delay making sunks as long as possible to get the extra mining time in cause you need to sunk 2 fronts (assuming he scouts it early) while waiting for lurks to morph - 2 lings - 14 gas - Lair - Den (50%Lair) - Immediate Queens nest after Lair - Begin evo at 25% Hive completion - 4 hat at 4th gas - Ultra Cavern (@ 8minute mark) - carapace upgrade and ultra armor upgrade finish at same time (around 9:20 seconds) at which point you should have 7 +4 carapace Ultra's with 18 Crack Lings). You actually hatch the Ultras a bit before the 9minute mark but need a few extra seconds to complete the upgrades. This build usually gets me 100 supply around the 9:45 mark with a 5th Hat added immediately after.
So yea, fast ultra's can definitely work but you have to survive with around 6-7 lurk/sunks to the 9 minute mark for my timing to fit. If you're facing a quicker Terran push you have to make more lurks which slightly delays you.
If you're going to bullshit you seriously gotta at least make it half-believable. Which you fail to do in nearly half the posts you make in this forum.
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It's not bullshit. That build order will work perfectly fine at D+ and C. All my post I've made in this forum are picture perfect build orders with precise timelines. With 3800 post one would hope you'd learn more by now :D.
Your post was good except...........
I'm well aware of that. Simply adding to the conversation and threw in exact and precise build order timing.......It was a rebuttal to the wrong and nonsensical assertion that koreasilver made in a previous post :D.
I use it a lot hehe you can spam sunkens at an expo nat while taking its main. It's great if you hate controlling defilers and just want cows fast
The fast armor upgrade makes the marines USELESS
And you should cause its a great strategy.
Putting 3rd hatch at 3rd base simply isn't practical unless it is on a Loki/Andro map because they threaten at two spots with 4 rax and your econ will be worse off than if you just played normally
This is simply not true. Maps like Fighting Spirit, Python, etc let you easily throw down a 3rd Hat at another gas expo which also blocks where your 4th Hat gas will go. The timing always works out so you get Lurks quick enough to defend with nothing more than 3 sunks at each base.
The key is proper scouting to delay sunking as long as possible. Once you have Lurks/sunks Rine rushes will not work. You normally get your Ultras out the same time they have tanks at your base. 7 +4 Ultras, 4-5 lurk, and 18 crax is more than enough to own his push hard.
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On March 30 2010 04:24 koreasilver wrote: Even on specific maps like Match Point where you can quickly double expand off of 2hatch mutas they are unable to skip lurkers. They get their den asap after their fourth hatch and delay hive because they are living on the edge of their mutalisks to hold off the Terran before their economy kicks in. Most of the time they barely get lurkers out in time to fend off the Terran. How are you supposed to skip everything and rush to ultras without getting killed. Maybe I've missed a progame where someone pulls it off but so far to me it just doesn't make any sense.
And no, there is an established build order for Crazy Zerg, and I have never heard anyone calling a non-3hatch build Crazy Zerg before. Crazy Zerg has always been 3hatch mutas into ultras since the build came out around the Blue Storm period. 3hatch -> put down evo when starting lair and start carapace while delaying lingspeed -> mutas with more lings than usual -> ultras. Crazy Zerg doesn't work off 2hatch as you have less minerals, less larva, and you don't have the economic backing to get your +1 carapace early. You won't be able to create the ling mass that will allow you to fight head on with your mutas until you get ultras out. You do not get upgrades for your mutas nor do you get more than ~11 mutas as you are conserving all your gas in order to be able to create ultras asap. is this what Jaedong used against flash during MSL finals set 3 during the power outage? Do you have to delay defilers like JD did?
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why is half of the people here talking about how to make crazy zerg work/ how to do crazy zerg rather than telling the OP how to prevent it? 
+ Show Spoiler +since he plays Terran, not Zerg
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On April 05 2010 20:49 Batibot wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2010 04:24 koreasilver wrote: Even on specific maps like Match Point where you can quickly double expand off of 2hatch mutas they are unable to skip lurkers. They get their den asap after their fourth hatch and delay hive because they are living on the edge of their mutalisks to hold off the Terran before their economy kicks in. Most of the time they barely get lurkers out in time to fend off the Terran. How are you supposed to skip everything and rush to ultras without getting killed. Maybe I've missed a progame where someone pulls it off but so far to me it just doesn't make any sense.
And no, there is an established build order for Crazy Zerg, and I have never heard anyone calling a non-3hatch build Crazy Zerg before. Crazy Zerg has always been 3hatch mutas into ultras since the build came out around the Blue Storm period. 3hatch -> put down evo when starting lair and start carapace while delaying lingspeed -> mutas with more lings than usual -> ultras. Crazy Zerg doesn't work off 2hatch as you have less minerals, less larva, and you don't have the economic backing to get your +1 carapace early. You won't be able to create the ling mass that will allow you to fight head on with your mutas until you get ultras out. You do not get upgrades for your mutas nor do you get more than ~11 mutas as you are conserving all your gas in order to be able to create ultras asap. is this what Jaedong used against flash during MSL finals set 3 during the power outage? Do you have to delay defilers like JD did? Yes, that game is a good example of the "classic" Crazy Zerg. Set 1 would be an example of a modified version of the variation of Crazy Zerg that was used tons on Outsider. The Crazy Zerg variation that was used a lot on Outsider follows the same idea in 3hatch -> fast +1 carapace -> mutas -> skip lurkers and fast hive, but because of the layout of the map you are able to get a lot of gas while only defending one area, and so you see them getting guardians and sunking up to hell.
You have to delay defilers while going Crazy Zerg because you are putting all your saved up gas into ultralisks initially in order to fight the Terran head on and reduce his army. Basically you are contesting the Terran's usual late midgame and early endgame map control and you are defending your third by contesting the Terran in fighting unit capability instead of the usual idea of defending with lurkers and defilers. To do this you have to have the mass of ultras and cracklings or else you will not be able to fight the Terran head-on, and if you can't fight the Terran head-on then you can't defend your third. You need to get defilers as soon as you take your fourth though, or the Terran will be able to kill you in fights. This has happened to Kwanro a lot in the past where he would gain a sizable advantage with the initial mutas, lings, and ultras... but lose all of the gains because he was too stubborn to get defilers when he could have.
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On April 05 2010 22:20 Katsuge wrote:why is half of the people here talking about how to make crazy zerg work/ how to do crazy zerg rather than telling the OP how to prevent it? + Show Spoiler +since he plays Terran, not Zerg Because the OP doesn't even know what Crazy Zerg is, and the game he posted was not an example of Crazy Zerg, lol.
On April 05 2010 17:34 11B wrote:It's not bullshit. That build order will work perfectly fine at D+ and C. All my post I've made in this forum are picture perfect build orders with precise timelines. With 3800 post one would hope you'd learn more by now :D. I'm well aware of that. Simply adding to the conversation and threw in exact and precise build order timing.......It was a rebuttal to the wrong and nonsensical assertion that koreasilver made in a previous post :D. Show nested quote +I use it a lot hehe you can spam sunkens at an expo nat while taking its main. It's great if you hate controlling defilers and just want cows fast
The fast armor upgrade makes the marines USELESS And you should cause its a great strategy. Show nested quote +Putting 3rd hatch at 3rd base simply isn't practical unless it is on a Loki/Andro map because they threaten at two spots with 4 rax and your econ will be worse off than if you just played normally This is simply not true. Maps like Fighting Spirit, Python, etc let you easily throw down a 3rd Hat at another gas expo which also blocks where your 4th Hat gas will go. The timing always works out so you get Lurks quick enough to defend with nothing more than 3 sunks at each base. The key is proper scouting to delay sunking as long as possible. Once you have Lurks/sunks Rine rushes will not work. You normally get your Ultras out the same time they have tanks at your base. 7 +4 Ultras, 4-5 lurk, and 18 crax is more than enough to own his push hard. There really isn't much to say to any of your posts because they are all nonsensical and stupid. It's a waste of time to argue with you because you don't even understand the most basic concepts yet you believe that you understand more than the most well informed veterans when you don't even understand the game more than a half-well read beginner.
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We'll definitely agree to disagree once again. I like how I'm the one giving exact build orders, timings, and real numbers but then a random person will come and say, everything you say is nonsensical, lol. Mirrors can be a useful thing. :D
@ OP,
If you would like some help or general practice to work on certain pushes or other timings give me a PM and I'll make some time for you ^^.
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Giving a completely incorrect build order for Crazy Zerg just shows that you don't understand the game and that you also do not know how to read. You're not contributing; you're just posting irrelevant and misleading information all over the place for the sake of posting. You're not helping anyone and anyone that takes your posts seriously will play worse because of the nonsense that you fling everywhere.
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wow, people still play broodwar? SCII is way better
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On April 07 2010 01:04 micropede wrote: wow, people still play broodwar? SCII is way better
This, folks, is what D/D- trolling looks like.
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Giving a completely incorrect build order for Crazy Zerg just shows that you don't understand the game and that you also do not know how to read. You're not contributing; you're just posting irrelevant and misleading information all over the place for the sake of posting. You're not helping anyone and anyone that takes your posts seriously will play worse because of the nonsense that you fling everywhere.
You're the one flaming and acting immature. I'm contributing positively and your doing a poor job at best using your self imposed God Key, hear me roar to unsuccessfully debate the situation. You sound like my kids lol.
Once again, @ OP,
If you want genuine help their are good mannered + skilled players who would be more than glad to help :D.
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Come on now. You can not claim to be contributing positively if you are trying to tell people that you can expand with your third hatchery in a 3hatch build against a Terran and that it will be safe all the time. Your lurkers will never come out in time to defend the most standard Terran pressure timing, and due to this you will be forced to build sunks on two fronts, and just by making three sunks on two fronts the Terran has inflicted enough economical damage upon you that he has so many different ways to kill you. The very fact that you tried to argue against Ver over one of the most basic aspects of ZvT is headache inducing.
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On April 04 2010 19:55 11B wrote: I've seen quite a few replays of pro's, gosu euro's, and semi-pro's completing skipping lurk and teching directly to ultra (3/4gas variations). Of course, they have amazing micro and are able to keep their Terran opponents busy in their base.
I also like to use a different variation of fast ultra's vs opponents I know will FE. It goes something like:
12 hat - 11 pool - 14 hat (at a 3rd base/gas)***be sure to delay making sunks as long as possible to get the extra mining time in cause you need to sunk 2 fronts (assuming he scouts it early) while waiting for lurks to morph - 2 lings - 14 gas - Lair - Den (50%Lair) - Immediate Queens nest after Lair - Begin evo at 25% Hive completion - 4 hat at 4th gas - Ultra Cavern (@ 8minute mark) - carapace upgrade and ultra armor upgrade finish at same time (around 9:20 seconds) at which point you should have 7 +4 carapace Ultra's with 18 Crack Lings). You actually hatch the Ultras a bit before the 9minute mark but need a few extra seconds to complete the upgrades. This build usually gets me 100 supply around the 9:45 mark with a 5th Hat added immediately after.
So yea, fast ultra's can definitely work but you have to survive with around 6-7 lurk/sunks to the 9 minute mark for my timing to fit. If you're facing a quicker Terran push you have to make more lurks which slightly delays you.
Show me the reps please.
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wow, what rank do you play at 11B. I'm D+ and i still regularly kill opponents for trying that greedy nonsense.
Who 3rd hatches at another base?? But to be fair, i do see people try it a lot on fighting spirit against me...but they always lose. The problem is that if you don't have your second gas mining at 2 hatch timing and i don't see the 3rd hatch in your base when i scout, i am going to scout the entire map for your base using 2 scvs if needed because I know that I cannot win against some zerg who gets a free extra base early.
I also typically cut some scvs for a better timing with earlier rax.
I have had someone survive taking a 3rd on heartbreak, but the cost in sunkens was prohibitive, basically making him have insufficient money for a proper midgame so then i just contained him and killed him at my leisure. but yeah forcing multiple sunkens at two bases will cost the zerg more than enough that mutas or lurkers will not be out in numbers before you can set up a contain
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On April 05 2010 17:34 11B wrote:It's not bullshit. That build order will work perfectly fine at D+ and C. All my post I've made in this forum are picture perfect build orders with precise timelines. With 3800 post one would hope you'd learn more by now :D. I'm well aware of that. Simply adding to the conversation and threw in exact and precise build order timing.......It was a rebuttal to the wrong and nonsensical assertion that koreasilver made in a previous post :D. Show nested quote +I use it a lot hehe you can spam sunkens at an expo nat while taking its main. It's great if you hate controlling defilers and just want cows fast
The fast armor upgrade makes the marines USELESS And you should cause its a great strategy. Show nested quote +Putting 3rd hatch at 3rd base simply isn't practical unless it is on a Loki/Andro map because they threaten at two spots with 4 rax and your econ will be worse off than if you just played normally This is simply not true. Maps like Fighting Spirit, Python, etc let you easily throw down a 3rd Hat at another gas expo which also blocks where your 4th Hat gas will go. The timing always works out so you get Lurks quick enough to defend with nothing more than 3 sunks at each base. The key is proper scouting to delay sunking as long as possible. Once you have Lurks/sunks Rine rushes will not work. You normally get your Ultras out the same time they have tanks at your base. 7 +4 Ultras, 4-5 lurk, and 18 crax is more than enough to own his push hard. Leave this forum please. Every time I see you posting it's completely retarded build orders that you back up by saying "they work at D+/C level" and--hold on, what rank are you?--then when we ask for replays you suddenly don't have any.
On top of that you're arguing with Koreasilver who's a B~ rank player if I remember correctly?
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