[H] Crazy Zerg style... AGAIN

On March 25 2010 09:48 kineSiS- wrote:
Link: http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=33721

Analysis:

As in the previous game versus a C rank Zerg I can't seem to withstand a mass mutalisk build even with enough turrets. You see the thing is that I attempted a half-assed Ayumi/Rush build in order to exploit him but I still got my ass raped. Furthermore, when i tried more attacks, he constantly destroyed me... I tried to mass up but by then he went 4 base Crazy Zerg fast.

Questions:
... besides the mess up with the early build. What did I do wrong?

On March 26 2010 02:29 stambe wrote:



Can someone clear it up what an Ayumi/Rush build is exactly ?

On March 30 2010 02:08 kineSiS- wrote:
Could anyone link to this game....? Cause it seems like there are several games of Flash versus TypeB.

On March 30 2010 02:54 zobz wrote:
I heard "crazy zerg" mentioned in hyung jun becomes a progamer too. Is it 12 pool/gas muta to four base lurker, or muta to ultra?

On March 30 2010 03:27 koreasilver wrote:
Huh? Where does someone go 2hatch mass muta into 4hatch ultras skipping lurkers and defilers? And since was anything other than 3hatch into fast hive skipping lurkers called crazy zerg?

On March 30 2010 04:24 koreasilver wrote:
Even on specific maps like Match Point where you can quickly double expand off of 2hatch mutas they are unable to skip lurkers. They get their den asap after their fourth hatch and delay hive because they are living on the edge of their mutalisks to hold off the Terran before their economy kicks in. Most of the time they barely get lurkers out in time to fend off the Terran. How are you supposed to skip everything and rush to ultras without getting killed. Maybe I've missed a progame where someone pulls it off but so far to me it just doesn't make any sense.

And no, there is an established build order for Crazy Zerg, and I have never heard anyone calling a non-3hatch build Crazy Zerg before. Crazy Zerg has always been 3hatch mutas into ultras since the build came out around the Blue Storm period. 3hatch -> put down evo when starting lair and start carapace while delaying lingspeed -> mutas with more lings than usual -> ultras. Crazy Zerg doesn't work off 2hatch as you have less minerals, less larva, and you don't have the economic backing to get your +1 carapace early. You won't be able to create the ling mass that will allow you to fight head on with your mutas until you get ultras out. You do not get upgrades for your mutas nor do you get more than ~11 mutas as you are conserving all your gas in order to be able to create ultras asap.

On March 30 2010 10:29 koreasilver wrote:
Saying that "it works at D+" is so stupid and pointless. You could probably rush to ultras off of 2base only using zerglings against D- players. Doesn't mean that it's a good build or that it makes any kind of good sense.

And you're basically hinging everything on muta micro to be able to defend yourself while expanding and teching. The only way you could possibly double expand AND skip lurkers and defilers and go straight into mutas is if your opponent gets his entire base razed by your first 11 mutas which just does not happen anymore as pretty much everyone knows how to play against 2hatch mutas now. And lets just say that your opponent sucks and you are killing him with your mutas. Carapace is late and your ultras are going to suck so there's no point in rushing for ultras anyway. It just doesn't make any good sense.

On March 30 2010 03:22 Pokebunny wrote:


2 hatch mass muta to 4 base ultra while getting evo ups

On April 04 2010 19:55 11B wrote:
I've seen quite a few replays of pro's, gosu euro's, and semi-pro's completing skipping lurk and teching directly to ultra (3/4gas variations). Of course, they have amazing micro and are able to keep their Terran opponents busy in their base.

I also like to use a different variation of fast ultra's vs opponents I know will FE. It goes something like:

12 hat - 11 pool - 14 hat (at a 3rd base/gas)***be sure to delay making sunks as long as possible to get the extra mining time in cause you need to sunk 2 fronts (assuming he scouts it early) while waiting for lurks to morph - 2 lings - 14 gas - Lair - Den (50%Lair) - Immediate Queens nest after Lair - Begin evo at 25% Hive completion - 4 hat at 4th gas - Ultra Cavern (@ 8minute mark) - carapace upgrade and ultra armor upgrade finish at same time (around 9:20 seconds) at which point you should have 7 +4 carapace Ultra's with 18 Crack Lings). You actually hatch the Ultras a bit before the 9minute mark but need a few extra seconds to complete the upgrades. This build usually gets me 100 supply around the 9:45 mark with a 5th Hat added immediately after.

So yea, fast ultra's can definitely work but you have to survive with around 6-7 lurk/sunks to the 9 minute mark for my timing to fit. If you're facing a quicker Terran push you have to make more lurks which slightly delays you.

On March 30 2010 03:22 Pokebunny wrote:


2 hatch mass muta to 4 base ultra while getting evo ups

On March 30 2010 03:49 kineSiS- wrote:



Trust me, 2 Hatch muta into 7 Hatch Crazy Zerg works so well. Basically I've been playing Zerg as Terran was not my main race and I basically harass with +1 Carapace as long as I can, which at D+ level is really easy (unless you versed a hacker,which I did) and you get your third, while building sunkens and then near hive you set up 4 Sunkens get a nydus/ultralisk den and you should've at the same time been upgrading carapace and melee attack and basically I can get about 16-19 ultras that way. It's also a quicker timing than 3 Hatch because your third is established before your mutas come out.

Also, there isn't a Build Order for Crazy Zerg so I'm assuming from what I've done is get mutalisks and while making mutalisks get +1 Carapace (personal preference) and get dual carapaces for Carapace upgrade and Melee attack upgrade. All the while you should get a third establish and probably get sunkens at natural and third if he decides to go SK Terran and then preceed to establish a Muta/Ling army while creating more sunkens. Eventually what I like to do is save till 2K-2K then with my 7 Hatcheries I mass ultras till no gas then mass lings and also I get scourge.

On April 04 2010 19:55 11B wrote:
I also like to use a different variation of fast ultra's vs opponents I know will FE. It goes something like:

12 hat - 11 pool - 14 hat (at a 3rd base/gas)***be sure to delay making sunks as long as possible to get the extra mining time in cause you need to sunk 2 fronts (assuming he scouts it early) while waiting for lurks to morph - 2 lings - 14 gas - Lair - Den (50%Lair) - Immediate Queens nest after Lair - Begin evo at 25% Hive completion - 4 hat at 4th gas - Ultra Cavern (@ 8minute mark) - carapace upgrade and ultra armor upgrade finish at same time (around 9:20 seconds) at which point you should have 7 +4 carapace Ultra's with 18 Crack Lings). You actually hatch the Ultras a bit before the 9minute mark but need a few extra seconds to complete the upgrades. This build usually gets me 100 supply around the 9:45 mark with a 5th Hat added immediately after.

So yea, fast ultra's can definitely work but you have to survive with around 6-7 lurk/sunks to the 9 minute mark for my timing to fit. If you're facing a quicker Terran push you have to make more lurks which slightly delays you.

On April 04 2010 19:55 11B wrote:
I've seen quite a few replays of pro's, gosu euro's, and semi-pro's completing skipping lurk and teching directly to ultra (3/4gas variations). Of course, they have amazing micro and are able to keep their Terran opponents busy in their base.

I also like to use a different variation of fast ultra's vs opponents I know will FE. It goes something like:

12 hat - 11 pool - 14 hat (at a 3rd base/gas)***be sure to delay making sunks as long as possible to get the extra mining time in cause you need to sunk 2 fronts (assuming he scouts it early) while waiting for lurks to morph - 2 lings - 14 gas - Lair - Den (50%Lair) - Immediate Queens nest after Lair - Begin evo at 25% Hive completion - 4 hat at 4th gas - Ultra Cavern (@ 8minute mark) - carapace upgrade and ultra armor upgrade finish at same time (around 9:20 seconds) at which point you should have 7 +4 carapace Ultra's with 18 Crack Lings). You actually hatch the Ultras a bit before the 9minute mark but need a few extra seconds to complete the upgrades. This build usually gets me 100 supply around the 9:45 mark with a 5th Hat added immediately after.

So yea, fast ultra's can definitely work but you have to survive with around 6-7 lurk/sunks to the 9 minute mark for my timing to fit. If you're facing a quicker Terran push you have to make more lurks which slightly delays you.

Your post was good except...........

I use it a lot hehe
you can spam sunkens at an expo nat while taking its main.
It's great if you hate controlling defilers and just want cows fast

The fast armor upgrade makes the marines USELESS

Putting 3rd hatch at 3rd base simply isn't practical unless it is on a Loki/Andro map because they threaten at two spots with 4 rax and your econ will be worse off than if you just played normally

On March 30 2010 04:24 koreasilver wrote:
Even on specific maps like Match Point where you can quickly double expand off of 2hatch mutas they are unable to skip lurkers. They get their den asap after their fourth hatch and delay hive because they are living on the edge of their mutalisks to hold off the Terran before their economy kicks in. Most of the time they barely get lurkers out in time to fend off the Terran. How are you supposed to skip everything and rush to ultras without getting killed. Maybe I've missed a progame where someone pulls it off but so far to me it just doesn't make any sense.

And no, there is an established build order for Crazy Zerg, and I have never heard anyone calling a non-3hatch build Crazy Zerg before. Crazy Zerg has always been 3hatch mutas into ultras since the build came out around the Blue Storm period. 3hatch -> put down evo when starting lair and start carapace while delaying lingspeed -> mutas with more lings than usual -> ultras. Crazy Zerg doesn't work off 2hatch as you have less minerals, less larva, and you don't have the economic backing to get your +1 carapace early. You won't be able to create the ling mass that will allow you to fight head on with your mutas until you get ultras out. You do not get upgrades for your mutas nor do you get more than ~11 mutas as you are conserving all your gas in order to be able to create ultras asap.

On April 05 2010 20:49 Batibot wrote:

is this what Jaedong used against flash during MSL finals set 3 during the power outage? Do you have to delay defilers like JD did?

On April 05 2010 22:20 Katsuge wrote:
why is half of the people here talking about how to make crazy zerg work/ how to do crazy zerg rather than telling the OP how to prevent it?

+ Show Spoiler +

On April 05 2010 17:34 11B wrote:
It's not bullshit. That build order will work perfectly fine at D+ and C. All my post I've made in this forum are picture perfect build orders with precise timelines. With 3800 post one would hope you'd learn more by now :D.



I'm well aware of that. Simply adding to the conversation and threw in exact and precise build order timing.......It was a rebuttal to the wrong and nonsensical assertion that koreasilver made in a previous post :D.




And you should cause its a great strategy.



This is simply not true. Maps like Fighting Spirit, Python, etc let you easily throw down a 3rd Hat at another gas expo which also blocks where your 4th Hat gas will go. The timing always works out so you get Lurks quick enough to defend with nothing more than 3 sunks at each base.

The key is proper scouting to delay sunking as long as possible. Once you have Lurks/sunks Rine rushes will not work. You normally get your Ultras out the same time they have tanks at your base. 7 +4 Ultras, 4-5 lurk, and 18 crax is more than enough to own his push hard.

On April 07 2010 01:04 micropede wrote:
wow, people still play broodwar? SCII is way better

Giving a completely incorrect build order for Crazy Zerg just shows that you don't understand the game and that you also do not know how to read. You're not contributing; you're just posting irrelevant and misleading information all over the place for the sake of posting. You're not helping anyone and anyone that takes your posts seriously will play worse because of the nonsense that you fling everywhere.

On April 04 2010 19:55 11B wrote:
I've seen quite a few replays of pro's, gosu euro's, and semi-pro's completing skipping lurk and teching directly to ultra (3/4gas variations). Of course, they have amazing micro and are able to keep their Terran opponents busy in their base.

I also like to use a different variation of fast ultra's vs opponents I know will FE. It goes something like:

12 hat - 11 pool - 14 hat (at a 3rd base/gas)***be sure to delay making sunks as long as possible to get the extra mining time in cause you need to sunk 2 fronts (assuming he scouts it early) while waiting for lurks to morph - 2 lings - 14 gas - Lair - Den (50%Lair) - Immediate Queens nest after Lair - Begin evo at 25% Hive completion - 4 hat at 4th gas - Ultra Cavern (@ 8minute mark) - carapace upgrade and ultra armor upgrade finish at same time (around 9:20 seconds) at which point you should have 7 +4 carapace Ultra's with 18 Crack Lings). You actually hatch the Ultras a bit before the 9minute mark but need a few extra seconds to complete the upgrades. This build usually gets me 100 supply around the 9:45 mark with a 5th Hat added immediately after.

So yea, fast ultra's can definitely work but you have to survive with around 6-7 lurk/sunks to the 9 minute mark for my timing to fit. If you're facing a quicker Terran push you have to make more lurks which slightly delays you.

On April 05 2010 17:34 11B wrote:
It's not bullshit. That build order will work perfectly fine at D+ and C. All my post I've made in this forum are picture perfect build orders with precise timelines. With 3800 post one would hope you'd learn more by now :D.



I'm well aware of that. Simply adding to the conversation and threw in exact and precise build order timing.......It was a rebuttal to the wrong and nonsensical assertion that koreasilver made in a previous post :D.




And you should cause its a great strategy.



This is simply not true. Maps like Fighting Spirit, Python, etc let you easily throw down a 3rd Hat at another gas expo which also blocks where your 4th Hat gas will go. The timing always works out so you get Lurks quick enough to defend with nothing more than 3 sunks at each base.

The key is proper scouting to delay sunking as long as possible. Once you have Lurks/sunks Rine rushes will not work. You normally get your Ultras out the same time they have tanks at your base. 7 +4 Ultras, 4-5 lurk, and 18 crax is more than enough to own his push hard.