|
The Liquipedia entry for spider mines had three very interesting entries:
If a spider mine is blinded by a Medic's Optical Flare, it will not unburrow or explode unless a triggering unit is directly on top of it. (Disallows mine defusing with Dragoons or Siege Tanks.)
Since Protoss has no units which deal instant attack aside from the scout, a bunch of blinded spider mines could potentially wipe out a dragoon clump without observers. The question is whether or not it is worth teching to medics and researching optical flare after your academy pops for the comsat. (300 mins and 200 gas for 4 medics with optical flare, worth 2 tanks of gas).
Defensive Matrix, Hallucination and Parasite may be cast on spider mines, and will be effective. Hallucinated spider mines trigger as normal, and deal no damage.
Is there an application of d-matrixing mines?
Spider Mines will target Zerg larvae and eggs. The explosion does not harm the hatchery/lair/hive.
If a Z used stop larvae and has a mineral line to the left, splash damage could kill many workers if the zerg does not pull his drones.
|
United States47024 Posts
On February 13 2010 00:25 Excel Excel wrote:
Since Protoss has no units which deal instant attack aside from the scout, a bunch of blinded spider mines could potentially wipe out a dragoon clump without observers. The question is whether or not it is worth teching to medics and researching optical flare after your academy pops for the comsat. (300 mins and 200 gas for 4 medics with optical flare, worth 2 tanks of gas).
The amount of time it would take for you to do the research and let your medics build up makes this exceedingly unlikely. Only low level players might be careless enough for this to happen. And against players of that level, they'd screw up enough against unblinded mines, so why would you need to blind them?
On February 13 2010 00:25 Excel Excel wrote:
Is there an application of d-matrixing mines?
I could be mistaken, but I thought defense matrix revealed cloaked targets.
|
Defense matrix does not reveal spider mines, it just makes it have much, much more apparent HP for the duration of the spell. Similarly, d-matrixed burrowed units are not revealed.
|
Unless Protoss is doing some silly no-robo build the window between flare and observers coming out is small, if at all. It might help surprise a group here and there but goon groups are usually accompanied by an obs, and if they aren't a mine going off at normal distance will hit them anyway, causing them to (at least in pro) stop moving and wait for an obs to help clean up the mines.
D-matrixing mines would mostly work if you had unreal reaction time, either d-matrix when it pops up to hit a group of hydras or something that would normally shoot it down, or when someone is doing that sexy hydra patrol-move hop-shoot thing, they might get carried away and shoot once (without killing (because of d-matrix)) hop forward and boom! Unfortunately - unlikely.
|
FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
On February 13 2010 00:31 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2010 00:25 Excel Excel wrote:
Since Protoss has no units which deal instant attack aside from the scout, a bunch of blinded spider mines could potentially wipe out a dragoon clump without observers. The question is whether or not it is worth teching to medics and researching optical flare after your academy pops for the comsat. (300 mins and 200 gas for 4 medics with optical flare, worth 2 tanks of gas). The amount of time it would take for you to do the research and let your medics build up makes this exceedingly unlikely. Only low level players might be careless enough for this to happen. And against players of that level, they'd screw up enough against unblinded mines, so why would you need to blind them? Show nested quote +On February 13 2010 00:25 Excel Excel wrote:
Is there an application of d-matrixing mines?
I could be mistaken, but I thought defense matrix revealed cloaked targets.
Have you watched many TvPs lately? There have been calls of "Really revolutionizing TvP with the use of medics." Granted, he hasn't been blinding the spider mines themselves--but he's been blinding the Protoss observers, which makes the mines infinitely more dangerous when the Protoss tries to break Really's push. If I recall correctly, other Terrans (Light, among others I think?) have been using this Flare build recently. And I'm pretty sure Really and Light don't qualify as "low level players."
Using defense matrix on a mine is not worth it, since it's energy wasted when you could be using an EMP or an irradiate. Not to mention that D-matrixing something like a dropship or siege tank would be worth much much more.
Edit: Here's the recent WL match that Really plays against Perfectman. Observer blinding is hilarious.
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/35958_PerfectMan_vs_Really/vod
|
United States47024 Posts
On February 13 2010 00:37 flamewheel91 wrote:
Have you watched many TvPs lately? There have been calls of "Really revolutionizing TvP with the use of medics." Granted, he hasn't been blinding the spider mines themselves--but he's been blinding the Protoss observers, which makes the mines infinitely more dangerous when the Protoss tries to break Really's push. If I recall correctly, other Terrans (Light, among others I think?) have been using this Flare build recently. And I'm pretty sure Really and Light don't qualify as "low level players."
I've watched those games and the scenario is entirely different. Blinding observers is hugely different from blinding mines, because of how much coverage they have. A blinded mine doesn't change the amount of detection that protoss has, and so doesn't make him any more vulnerable to mines other than the blinded one itself. Blinding the observer noticeably reduces protoss' detection coverage.
Put simply, blinding observers gives you some advantage, regardless of the level of play, because it renders those observers useless. If you build 4 medics and blind 4 observers, you've spent 200 gas to make the opponent waste 300--regardless of whether your mines hit anything. Blinding mines is dependent on your opponent's level of play because it requires your opponent to fall for it in order to actually do any damage. You could spend 300/200 to do nothing.
On February 13 2010 00:33 Excel Excel wrote:
Defense matrix does not reveal spider mines, it just makes it have much, much more apparent HP for the duration of the spell. Similarly, d-matrixed burrowed units are not revealed.
Hmm. Still, you get Science Vessels to respond to Arbiters. Spending a Defense Matrix on a mine means that's one less recall you can respond to. Not to mention that it might not even be worth using over an EMP on units. Spider mines do more damage, but EMP has full effect on all units inside the area of effect, while spider mines have reduced damage the farther the unit is from the mine.
|
FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
On February 13 2010 00:37 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2010 00:37 flamewheel91 wrote:
Have you watched many TvPs lately? There have been calls of "Really revolutionizing TvP with the use of medics." Granted, he hasn't been blinding the spider mines themselves--but he's been blinding the Protoss observers, which makes the mines infinitely more dangerous when the Protoss tries to break Really's push. If I recall correctly, other Terrans (Light, among others I think?) have been using this Flare build recently. And I'm pretty sure Really and Light don't qualify as "low level players." I've watched those games and the scenario is entirely different. Blinding observers is hugely different from blinding mines, because of how much coverage they have. A blinded mine doesn't change the amount of detection that protoss has, and so doesn't make him any more vulnerable to mines other than the blinded one itself. Blinding the observer noticeably reduces protoss' detection coverage. Put simply, blinding observers gives you some advantage, regardless of the level of play, because it renders those observers useless. If you build 4 medics and blind 4 observers, you've spent 200 gas to make the opponent waste 300--regardless of whether your mines hit anything. Blinding mines is dependent on your opponent's level of play because it requires your opponent to fall for it in order to actually do any damage. You could spend 300/200 to do nothing. Show nested quote +On February 13 2010 00:33 Excel Excel wrote:
Defense matrix does not reveal spider mines, it just makes it have much, much more apparent HP for the duration of the spell. Similarly, d-matrixed burrowed units are not revealed. Hmm. Still, you get Science Vessels to respond to Arbiters. Spending a Defense Matrix on a mine means that's one less recall you can respond to. Not to mention that it might not even be worth using over an EMP on units. Spider mines do more damage, but EMP has full effect on all units inside the area of effect, while spider mines have reduced damage the farther the unit is from the mine.
Oh, apologies. Somehow I read the OPs post as part of yours. I was just going to comment on the fact that if you're going to be getting medics to blind observers, extra energy from medics can be used to blind strategic mines as well.
Though I would argue that blinded mines are more dangerous in TvT than in TvP due to most Terrans not having detection till pretty late in the game.
|
On February 13 2010 00:33 Excel Excel wrote:
Defense matrix does not reveal spider mines, it just makes it have much, much more apparent HP for the duration of the spell. Similarly, d-matrixed burrowed units are not revealed.
D matrixed burrowed units do reveal to the enemy. Happens many times in impossible scenario panics. 
|
Calgary25979 Posts
On February 13 2010 00:25 Excel Excel wrote:
Since Protoss has no units which deal instant attack aside from the scout, a bunch of blinded spider mines could potentially wipe out a dragoon clump without observers. The question is whether or not it is worth teching to medics and researching optical flare after your academy pops for the comsat. (300 mins and 200 gas for 4 medics with optical flare, worth 2 tanks of gas).
No, it's not worth it in any situation.
|
United States47024 Posts
On February 13 2010 00:46 flamewheel91 wrote:
Though I would argue that blinded mines are more dangerous in TvT than in TvP due to most Terrans not having detection till pretty late in the game.
Except Goliaths do instant damage and can defuse mines pretty handily.
|
Only matchup where blinding your mines might be worth it is TvT, generally no detection and the problem is that tanks and gols normally kill them too quickly but with the flare they might detonate quickly enough for them to go off before they get killed by the unit.
Generally I prefer D-matrixing a vulture instead, using that to spam down three mines in amongst goons. Generally they focus fire the vulture giving enough time for at least one or two mines to go off.
|
Do you know how hard it is to target a mine, let alone a field of them? For a new player it just takes way to much mouse precision and therefore time. If you do have flare, it would be more useful to use it on shuttles or obs as was mentioned, or arbiters if you spot them in time.
|
United States7166 Posts
i'd rather just blind the observers, but make sure you also make good usage out of getting a comsat so early, (scan gateway count to make a major game decision)
|
I'd like to see a video against tanks; I think the mines will still take too long. Can you even blind your own units?
|
Didn't JF always run his army around without observers PvT? This could spell trouble for him
But otherwise, blinding observers seems way better, or just not blinding at all.
|
The answer is NO
to all of them.
|
On February 13 2010 00:25 Excel Excel wrote:
Since Protoss has no units which deal instant attack aside from the scout, a bunch of blinded spider mines could potentially wipe out a dragoon clump without observers. The question is whether or not it is worth teching to medics and researching optical flare after your academy pops for the comsat. (300 mins and 200 gas for 4 medics with optical flare, worth 2 tanks of gas).
You can try to waste effort and apm on blinding mines, but chances are he will have observers. If he is bad enough to not have observers, you can better spend that effort and apm into macroing better to defeat him
Is there an application of d-matrixing mines?
Unless you have enough vessels and energy to deal with arbiters, which you won't, you shouldn't try it. What will happen is, if he uses dragoons, the dragoons won't proceed until the mine is gone. Sure, it will take him longer to kill the mines and will stall him, but if he has zealots, the mines will just pop on them. Not a very effective use of precious vessel energy.
If a Z used stop larvae and has a mineral line to the left, splash damage could kill many workers if the zerg does not pull his drones.
By the time you have mines, the zerg will not be wasting apm putting larvae to the left, because not only is it not effective at all to do that, but he has better things to do that late in the game. If there are vultures in a zerg's mineral line, the zerg probably won't leave it near any stopped larvae for that to happen
You need to get really lucky for these things to actually have any effect.
|
Oh shit i think im going to switch to protoss...
|
1. This could work, although by the time you'd get academy / flair there are observers out, unless you want to get academy super early, but if you do say goodbye to your timing window.
2. D-matrix mine is visible without detection so no, no practical uses
3. This could work, although I've never done it. Generally zerg won't be stupid enough to not have a sunken by their mineral line if vultures are out and if they don't you're probably better of sniping drones but yea, could work. If there are other zerg units tho, the mines will be shot before going off so again there arent too many uses but its the most plausible.
|
On February 13 2010 00:37 flamewheel91 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2010 00:31 TheYango wrote:On February 13 2010 00:25 Excel Excel wrote:
Since Protoss has no units which deal instant attack aside from the scout, a bunch of blinded spider mines could potentially wipe out a dragoon clump without observers. The question is whether or not it is worth teching to medics and researching optical flare after your academy pops for the comsat. (300 mins and 200 gas for 4 medics with optical flare, worth 2 tanks of gas). The amount of time it would take for you to do the research and let your medics build up makes this exceedingly unlikely. Only low level players might be careless enough for this to happen. And against players of that level, they'd screw up enough against unblinded mines, so why would you need to blind them? On February 13 2010 00:25 Excel Excel wrote:
Is there an application of d-matrixing mines?
I could be mistaken, but I thought defense matrix revealed cloaked targets. Have you watched many TvPs lately? There have been calls of "Really revolutionizing TvP with the use of medics." Granted, he hasn't been blinding the spider mines themselves--but he's been blinding the Protoss observers, which makes the mines infinitely more dangerous when the Protoss tries to break Really's push. If I recall correctly, other Terrans (Light, among others I think?) have been using this Flare build recently. And I'm pretty sure Really and Light don't qualify as "low level players." Using defense matrix on a mine is not worth it, since it's energy wasted when you could be using an EMP or an irradiate. Not to mention that D-matrixing something like a dropship or siege tank would be worth much much more. Edit: Here's the recent WL match that Really plays against Perfectman. Observer blinding is hilarious. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/35958_PerfectMan_vs_Really/vod
Really has used it to blind observers. This stalls the Protoss from clearing mines. It's useful on matchpoint (which is why thats the only map he does it on) where you can mine that plateau in the middle and if there are no detecting observers protoss can't go into the terran side of the map. Also, its been used vs shuttle / reaver which I find super awesome. Either way its an entirely different use of medics than we're describing ere.
|
On February 13 2010 00:37 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2010 00:37 flamewheel91 wrote:
Have you watched many TvPs lately? There have been calls of "Really revolutionizing TvP with the use of medics." Granted, he hasn't been blinding the spider mines themselves--but he's been blinding the Protoss observers, which makes the mines infinitely more dangerous when the Protoss tries to break Really's push. If I recall correctly, other Terrans (Light, among others I think?) have been using this Flare build recently. And I'm pretty sure Really and Light don't qualify as "low level players." I've watched those games and the scenario is entirely different. Blinding observers is hugely different from blinding mines, because of how much coverage they have. A blinded mine doesn't change the amount of detection that protoss has, and so doesn't make him any more vulnerable to mines other than the blinded one itself. Blinding the observer noticeably reduces protoss' detection coverage. Put simply, blinding observers gives you some advantage, regardless of the level of play, because it renders those observers useless. If you build 4 medics and blind 4 observers, you've spent 200 gas to make the opponent waste 300--regardless of whether your mines hit anything. Blinding mines is dependent on your opponent's level of play because it requires your opponent to fall for it in order to actually do any damage. You could spend 300/200 to do nothing. Show nested quote +On February 13 2010 00:33 Excel Excel wrote:
Defense matrix does not reveal spider mines, it just makes it have much, much more apparent HP for the duration of the spell. Similarly, d-matrixed burrowed units are not revealed. Hmm. Still, you get Science Vessels to respond to Arbiters. Spending a Defense Matrix on a mine means that's one less recall you can respond to. Not to mention that it might not even be worth using over an EMP on units. Spider mines do more damage, but EMP has full effect on all units inside the area of effect, while spider mines have reduced damage the farther the unit is from the mine.
How about blinding both Observers AND mines?
The Protoss would attempt to just kill them with Goon micro and many laughs would be had.
|
legit question, sorry for hijack:
how come toss can just storm minefield??i mean mines is what really pummels toss asshole, so storm the field, get rid of shit ton of mines, make a open gap for lots to run through, and proceed to rape tanks??
|
Well, minefields are usually much larger than the area of one or two storms, and if you're going to cover an entire screen with storm, it could be used on much more useful targets instead, like tanks.
|
Ya, a storm is gonna kill like 1 or 2 mines tops, and storming units would be much more effective.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x259/alastair_hm/facepalmbq8dj7.jpg)
