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So I decided to go with a Strong FD build, and with the exception of a few minor flaws in the build execution I think I did the push at a decent timing. Neither my factory or my tanks were very late. I know that I mismicroed a bit, but after watching this replay myself it doesn't seem like this would have gone that much better even with better micro.
My push arrives to his base when he already has 2 gateways up pumping dragoons, so I decided to not push in and rather set up smaller contain instead.
There isn't really that much to say about what happens after the 10 minute mark, I was at an disadvantage when he broke my contain and from there on I didn't play well enough to make up for that.
What I don't understand is how he could expand before me AND have more units than me at the same time.
I know I could execute the build better, I normally do it slightly better than I did it in this game, but I don't think I made so many errors that it had a huge impact on my push either.
http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=31126
Please don't slaughter my efforts too much, I am trying my hardest! D:
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On February 11 2010 03:17 Noah wrote:So I decided to go with a Strong FD build, and with the exception of a few minor flaws in the build execution I think I did the push at a decent timing. Neither my factory or my tanks were very late. I know that I mismicroed a bit, but after watching this replay myself it doesn't seem like this would have gone that much better even with better micro. My push arrives to his base when he already has 2 gateways up pumping dragoons, so I decided to not push in and rather set up smaller contain instead. There isn't really that much to say about what happens after the 10 minute mark, I was at an disadvantage when he broke my contain and from there on I didn't play well enough to make up for that. What I don't understand is how he could expand before me AND have more units than me at the same time. I know I could execute the build better, I normally do it slightly better than I did it in this game, but I don't think I made so many errors that it had a huge impact on my push either. http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=31126Please don't slaughter my efforts too much, I am trying my hardest! D:
My push arrives to his base when he already has 2 gateways up pumping dragoons, so I decided to not push in and rather set up smaller contain instead.
im pretty sure thats why, this isnt a containment build its an aggressive build to get up an expo(i think?) or punish greedier builds..
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Well isn't such a fast expansion considered greedy?
He went 1 gateway, Core into expansion.
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As far as I can tell about the Fake Double build (never really used it much) the point is to push the protoss back as far as you can toward his base and lay mines between you two while expanding behind it. He will break your force sooner or later.
The few times I've messed with it I've fallen back when I don't have vultures and tried to march forward when a vulture was near my force. Eventually you should just pull back into your base to defend and turtle up on your two bases.
I'm not super familiar with the Strong FD push though but I know the point of the build is certainly not to kill or contain your opponent like arb said.
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If they went to gate dragoon when you go FD it means he is going to play defensively and hold his ramp. Unless you have seige upgraded and brought scvs with you chances are your not going to break the protoss.
If you cant do alot of damage thats ok, since he went 2gate goons, get your expo up then back off and youll be ahead by just a little bit. Scout constantly. Try and figure out what the protoss is gonna do and adapt your build for the mid and late game.
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Well if you can't really expect to do anything useful with the Strong FD push then I don't really see the point in continuing using this build. Maybe I should just forget it for now and go Siege Expand in every game instead. As long as the map I play can be walled off Siege Expand will let me get my expansion earlier anyway.
Edit: To reply to the post above, he went 1 gate goon and got his expansion up before me . If I had backed off I would have been behind since he would have had his expansion up and running before me. Maybe my problem is that I should just swallow the BO disadvantage instead of trying too hard to get something out of the investment I put in those early units.
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The Strong FD kills 1 gate nexus. It allows you to actually destroy their nexus, and start building your own CC from thereon. The game is strongly in your favour from this point forward. It comes out even against 2 gate goon (but is very hard to micro against).
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I'm sure the Strong FD build should only be used on maps where it's actually hard to siege expand vs 10/15 gate or any strong 2 gate goon pressure. That's what I remember Stylish advocating anyway
Maps where it's powerful on would be Tau Cross, Neo Medusa, Longinus etc
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the old terran bo is supply 8 rax 10-11 gas 12
the new one is supply 9 rax 11 gas 12
flash is doing s9 r11 g11 for faster tank
the most macro bo (good for fd) is s9 r12 g12 cuz you wonna more minerals cuz of marins
you have done a s9 r10 g10 thats a no-no a big mistake
you havent dome scv for a lot of time, cutting really dont help you
your 3rd supply was really late and you stacked again with scvs and marins
you have builded your cc at like 650 mineral, that lol, good players build it at 399
also the push you have done is not good, the 2 tank is a bad tajming, you can do this vs 12nexus to do some damage if you dont wont to go 2fakt or vs rivers or 1gate robotics bos.
vs 2 gate goons it is weak, you need to go 1 tank and mines, 8 marins are also too much, better to put 2 scvs, like same dmg and better meat also can repair the tank and block goons cuz they are faster then marins
so weak fd 1tank 4-5 marins 1vulture mine
strong fd 1tank 5-6 marins 1vulture mine 2scvs
if you are able to do some damage is good to dont research sige, go streight speed so your harass will be so stronger, ih he push out you punish him
also dont contain with fd, and place mines at possible p expos (3rd-4th ecc)
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On February 11 2010 03:38 Noah wrote:
Well if you can't really expect to do anything useful with the Strong FD push then I don't really see the point in continuing using this build. Maybe I should just forget it for now and go Siege Expand in every game instead. As long as the map I play can be walled off Siege Expand will let me get my expansion earlier anyway.
Edit: To reply to the post above, he went 1 gate goon and got his expansion up before me . If I had backed off I would have been behind since he would have had his expansion up and running before me. Maybe my problem is that I should just swallow the BO disadvantage instead of trying too hard to get something out of the investment I put in those early units.
wait he went one gate core on you? Why didnt you win?
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On February 11 2010 03:51 ajmbek wrote:
the old terran bo is supply 8 rax 10-11 gas 12
the new one is supply 9 rax 11 gas 12
flash is doing s9 r11 g11 for faster tank
the most macro bo (good for fd) is s9 r12 g12 cuz you wonna more minerals cuz of marins
you have done a s9 r10 g10 thats a no-no a big mistake
you havent dome scv for a lot of time, cutting really dont help you
your 3rd supply was really late and you stacked again with scvs and marins
you have builded your cc at like 650 mineral, that lol, good players build it at 399
also the push you have done is not good, the 2 tank is a bad tajming, you can do this vs 12nexus to do some damage if you dont wont to go 2fakt or vs rivers or 1gate robotics bos.
vs 2 gate goons it is weak, you need to go 1 tank and mines, 8 marins are also too much, better to put 2 scvs, like same dmg and better meat also can repair the tank and block goons cuz they are faster then marins
so weak fd 1tank 4-5 marins 1vulture mine
strong fd 1tank 5-6 marins 1vulture mine 2scvs
if you are able to do some damage is good to dont research sige, go streight speed so your harass will be so stronger, ih he push out you punish him
also dont contain with fd, and place mines at possible p expos (3rd-4th ecc)
Well it seems like you are disagreeing with the build I am using, the one I am using is the one that is on Liquipedia: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/FD_(vs._Protoss)#Modern_Variation
It doesnt say so there, but I'm 99% certain that you're supposed to have 8 marines when pusing out with a Strong FD build. I can't really argue for or against my build vs what you are saying as I don't have the knowledge to say that the build listed on Liquipedia is right or wrong. I'm assuming that it's a good build since it is there though.
Also to the comments about how I should have won vs this build, this is what I don't understand either. I don't think that my execution of the Strong (Modern) FD build listed on Liquipedia is that poor, yet he still had an army advantage and an earlier expo when I reached his base.
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edit for misinformation 
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Dont use that build. Theres a reason why no one uses it anymore. Terran's started experimenting with it as like a soft counter against 12 nexus and 10/15 on medusa but everyone discarded it after a few tries. It only works vs people who dont know how to micro dragoons and people who never faced the build before. Just use regular siege expand. You cut too many scvs early on for the build that even if you get some kills you're still behind. Its the problem with guides that dont get updated. Builds appear and die on sc. Sometimes they die for stupid reasons like carriers which are still viable but somethings die because they just arent viable. Honestly you can go ahead and use it and if you micro decently you'll probably get some free wins vs d players but you're going to lose to people who know how to micro goons and adapt.
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9 suply
10 rax
10 gas
15 fact
16 suply
22 suply
28 suply
40 cc
strong fake double is strong
improved goon micro is improved
just play better than your opponent
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On February 11 2010 04:19 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
Dont use that build. Theres a reason why no one uses it anymore. Terran's started experimenting with it as like a soft counter against 12 nexus and 10/15 on medusa but everyone discarded it after a few tries. It only works vs people who dont know how to micro dragoons and people who never faced the build before. Just use regular siege expand. You cut too many scvs early on for the build that even if you get some kills you're still behind. Its the problem with guides that dont get updated. Builds appear and die on sc. Sometimes they die for stupid reasons like carriers which are still viable but somethings die because they just arent viable. Honestly you can go ahead and use it and if you micro decently you'll probably get some free wins vs d players but you're going to lose to people who know how to micro goons and adapt.
yes, fd is bad
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United States11390 Posts
On February 11 2010 03:45 Espers wrote:
I'm sure the Strong FD build should only be used on maps where it's actually hard to siege expand vs 10/15 gate or any strong 2 gate goon pressure. That's what I remember Stylish advocating anyway
Maps where it's powerful on would be Tau Cross, Neo Medusa, Longinus etc
He was advocating that until Idra came in and told him how wrong he is and that strong FD is terrible vs both 10/15 and double nex. (where stylish thought strong fd raped both of them)
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Well this kinda sucks because I've made quite alot of effort to learn that build, but I'm not going to ignore the responses I got here. Looks like I'll replace Strong FD with a 2 fact build, and I'll start using Siege Expand as my main starter.
I guess FD is only to be used on maps without a choke and where a 2 supply wall-in isn't possible, which means none of the standard ICCup maps.
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My (nooby) experience has seen that Strong FD doesn't "rape" 10/15 or 12nex.
It's too slow to counter a 12nex, but should at least rough them up if they haven't followed up with 2 gates pumping units. Because of the econ disadvantage, a weaker FD that gets your CC up sooner but still has marines and a vulture out to harass the nexus is preferable.
Against 10/15 it matches the Protoss units pretty evenly (counter fire with fire) and you will have your expansion down at a good time. I've seen Gretorp go 2vult with 5 marines against 10/15 and achieve an even faster CC using minimal units. This is a little risky and may require a bunker if the mines fail, but 10/15 will have late obs and this is probably an all-around better choice than 2 tanks and a million marines.
I like to go Strong FD occasionally just to catch 1gate expand off guard. If you micro well and kill the nexus, that's a gg without the full investment of a 2fac.
9,10,10 is correct timing for the build. You can also do a Strong FD from an 8rax opening (same army at same timing, but fewer SCVs) if you want to gamble on stopping a 12nex in addition to 1gate expand, but this totally cripples your economy and I wouldn't recommend it unless you're aware of the consequences.
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mmp the problem is that it seems like I have to micro my terran units so much better than my opponent has to micro his protoss units. If a build requires me to have significantly better micro than my opponent I consider it to be weak anyway. As long as I have that much better micro I should win the game regardless of what builds either of us are using.
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if you want an agressive opening try to learn nadas 2 fact build
9depot
10rac
11gas
16fact -> shop
16depot
18fact
22depot
make tanks from 1st fact make vultures from 2nd fact
research mines or speed your choice but move out when you have 2-3 tanks
look it up on liquipedia
edit: vod
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/10074_Bisu_vs_firebathero/vod
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I use this build all the time with great results. Usually I kill the toss's expo if he expanded quickly, and get my own expansion up in the mean time. It's fine against 2gate builds as well, I usually get some mines up at his natural and my exp is still faster. It does have some trouble against fast dt or reavers though. There is no scv cutting in the build other than at 10 supply.
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On February 11 2010 05:30 Noah wrote:
mmp the problem is that it seems like I have to micro my terran units so much better than my opponent has to micro his protoss units. If a build requires me to have significantly better micro than my opponent I consider it to be weak anyway. As long as I have that much better micro I should win the game regardless of what builds either of us are using.
Well Terran macro is also harder than Protoss macro, but that doesn't mean you should be playing Protoss, right?
Each rush build is designed to give your gosu micro the fairest chance at overcoming the Protoss zealot/goon count under certain conditions, because if he has too many units it's just 1a2a3a imba. Keep in mind that most builds aren't intended to gain a fast 'gg', but maybe to hurt the Protoss econ, or to lower the dragoon count, or to sneak a vulture inside and get intel. Other times it is just a good exchange if you can put pressure on your opponent while still keeping up in econ.
Just use the right build for the right situation and think about how your early game build will help you achieve your midgame objectives.
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On February 11 2010 05:42 lu_cid wrote:
I use this build all the time with great results. Usually I kill the toss's expo if he expanded quickly, and get my own expansion up in the mean time. It's fine against 2gate builds as well, I usually get some mines up at his natural and my exp is still faster. It does have some trouble against fast dt or reavers though. There is no scv cutting in the build other than at 10 supply.
If your Strong FD arrives at the Protoss natural and there is no Nexus, RUN HOME ASAP LOL.
Don't forget to lay a mine on the natural location. ^^
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Well the difference between switching to Protoss and to another Terran opener is quite big! Changing to Siege Expand or 2 fact is a tad less drastic. There is no way I'm betraying my Terran brethren to play as filthy Protoss scum anyway!
Also the problem with FD is that you're supposed to scout at 15, and when you find his base you're usually so far into your FD opening that you can't really switch it anyway as you've already made quite an investment into early Marines anyway.
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Strong FD is a horrible build according to idra. All it does is delay your push and expo which only serves to give your opponent more time to get more units/tech. A regular FD is just as effective against a 1 gate expo, and on top of that you aren't forced to do major damage. You're better off vs 9/10 builds by protoss doing a weak FD off of 11/11 or 11/12 rax/gas. You will have a much earlier expo and you'll be that much safer vs dts.
That being said, the next advice applies to all FD variants (and 2 facts). The goal of the push is to have your marines take damage so your tank doesn't get killed instantly, and that force forces the dragoons to engage and pick apart marines or risk not having enough to engage at his base. The byproduct of this is that you have vultures which go behind his retreating goons and mine up behind him so he can't run away. If you do this correctly toss WILL lose dragoons. If toss has his dragoons all at the front line trying to just break your push, take your vults and just run into his base and start mining his gates and popping probes. The economic damage you do to him can be quite devastating, especially if you mine his ramp and get into his main. And, he'll probably kill your tank and marines, but you have vultures with mines to keep your nat secure and there's nothing he can do to stop your own expansion.
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On February 11 2010 05:30 Noah wrote:
mmp the problem is that it seems like I have to micro my terran units so much better than my opponent has to micro his protoss units. If a build requires me to have significantly better micro than my opponent I consider it to be weak anyway. As long as I have that much better micro I should win the game regardless of what builds either of us are using.
Versus Strong FD, Protoss has to spend the entire battle retreating, taking well-timed potshots, and retreating again, because your army will rape his horribly if they actually meet. Meanwhile, you're controlling Tanks, which shoot immediately at long range from behind a meatshield, marines, which shoot immediately and are expendable, and vultures which shoot immediately + are expendable + force the Protoss to split his fire across specific little mini-nukes instead of your units. (Plus, he's raped if the vultures successfully get between his units and his base.)
Oh, and the Protoss is controlling the clumsiest unit in Starcraft.
Cry some more.
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On February 11 2010 03:17 Noah wrote:
What I don't understand is how he could expand before me AND have more units than me at the same time.
Dude... this is the freaking life story of PvT. On a helpful note, SevereDevil is totally right. The only times I manage to survive a SFD at the D level (which happens to be every time at the D level) is when the T fails to understand the map and gives me an opportunity to lol-ambush his push from high ground/flank.
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This should by no means be your standard opening. It's very "specialized."
Seige expand is standard. If a Protoss consistently 12nexes to your seige expo, throw in a 14cc or bbs once in a while and they should get the hint.
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On February 11 2010 05:55 Noah wrote:Well the difference between switching to Protoss and to another Terran opener is quite big! Changing to Siege Expand or 2 fact is a tad less drastic. There is no way I'm betraying my Terran brethren to play as filthy Protoss scum anyway! Also the problem with FD is that you're supposed to scout at 15, and when you find his base you're usually so far into your FD opening that you can't really switch it anyway as you've already made quite an investment into early Marines anyway.
I have no idea where you're getting your information from. There is no law that you're suppose to scout at 15 and never any other timing. Just because flash does it doesnt mean you should blindly copy him. Know why he does it, why he can get away with it and why you cant. If you go 11/11 you can scout at 13 not 15. You're playing randoms on iccup not progamers who play really unpredictable.
I really feel you're learning, playing and thinking the wrong way about sc that really is hindering your growth as a player.
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As a quite new Starcraft player I can't really do much else than to copy the builds I see in places like Liquipedia. Most builds has a standardized scout timing, and most builds used today have been refined and optimized by pro Koreans. You could extend your "Just because flash does it doesnt mean you should blindly copy him" argument to include any part of any opener being used today, and that basically would mean that there is no reason for me to do anything I see on Liquipedia since I'm playing D players.
I don't think I would get very far if I decide to make my own opening build myself based on my whooping total of no experience at all.
Edit: Even with an earlier scout there is no guarantee that I will find my opponent in time to change my opening build according to his unless its a 2 player map. If I scout in the wrong direction I will still be well into a FD build before reaching the Protoss base and I will already have invested in Marines.
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Watched your replay:
You could have dealt more damage getting out of your base before losing 2 marines. This is one sucky thing about doing this build on a ramped map so be more careful. You can float your barracks as you're leaving your base.
Bring an SCV with your rush to meatshield and to make a bunker if you should make it to the nexus.
Most importantly, use your vultures better. Your first vulture died achieving nothing. This is necessary for a 2fac rush as well. On Fighting Spirit, you can sneak a vulture through his 3rd to get access behind the dragoons. You want to attack with your marines at the same time as the vulture is moving in, forcing the dragoons to stay and kill the vulture but suffering marine fire; they otherwise retreat from the spider mine but you want to force them all the way back to the ramp. Try to lay one mine before sending in your vulture so it won't die in vain. Make sure your factory is rallying more vultures to the fight (they produce surprisingly quickly). If you're in the center of the map, run the vultures behind the dragoons and set up a trap for the dragoons.
You really don't want to go for a contain from one factory. It's better to just go home and be prepared for a possible drop.
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Thanks for the help mmp.
I am aware that it would be better if I had been able to micro better, I need to micro more to get better at it. The reason why I chose Strong FD as a build in the first place was to get used to being offensive and to doing pushes and learning how to micro on a smaller scale. I still feel that this isn't quite as good as just going Siege Expand. I'm going to spend my time figuring out how to make a proper push off 4/5/6 factories in response to what Protoss is doing instead of microing in what feels like an uphill battle.
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1. You didn't split one of your scvs and lost mining time
2. 8/10 depot
This is a more fundamental problem with your approach to SFD. You pretty much build an 8/10 depot because you pull your 7th scv. You're supposed to use 8th scv that pops up to build your depot.
Pulling 7th
1. gets earlier depot which lets you make scvs nonstop.
2. there's no mineral stockpiling (at least in your rep)
3. Your depot scv had to wait for some seconds before you had the money to build rax
Bottom line: You can build scvs continuously at the cost of delayed rax and refinery
Pulling 8th scv
1. Gets later depot and you cannot make scvs for some seconds
2. when depot is done, you have over 200 minerals (I think closer to 250)
3. You can build rax and ref and wait only few seconds to build the next scv
Bottom line: You can build rax and refinery quickly at the cost of not building scvs continuously. But even then there's not much scv-cut time or scvs waiting around
The logic of SFD is to get factory asap for fast 2 tanks from 1 factory. Pulling 7th scv is supposed to maximize economy by letting you build scvs constantly through avoiding 10/10 supply cap. Your depot timing is a contradiction to SFD, and this is why you end up with a ton of wait-time to build buildings.
This is probably difficult to understand so just pull your 8th scv, not your 7th. You'll have some time where you don't build scvs which may be foreign to you, but this lets you accumulate money to build rax and refinery quickly.
3. You should have 100 gas at 14, which you should use immediately to build a 14 fac
4. You got supply blocked at 26/26. If you want to be aggressive you have to avoid sup cap or your timing will be off
5. You have to keep building vults nonstop after your 2nd tank. You were sitting at 400+ minerals for such a long time without building anything.
6. You can't just let your marines be killed so easily. The protoss should feel that his goon threat to fire on marines is met with your 2-tank threat to fire on his goons. You can't let 1 tank and 8 marines engage his goon force, he gets off too much damage on you than you do to him.
7. Your follow-up after the push is not optimal. Your priority should be 1. constant vultures through good macro and supply depot making 2. safety against dt/reaver.
At this point you have mine, and scan will come too late and not enough to be cost effective. Build an ebay and bring scvs to build turret/bunker. Academy doesn't fit in well as a follow-up to SFD. If he made DTs, you would face them even before your aca is finished, let alone scan. You would either win or lose against dts with mines alone. And even if his dt comes after scan, you get 1 scan from which the dt can easily walk away from...not a good investment. Ebay or even factory is better. Actually what some pros do is to get wraith to counter reaver play. With theoretical micro, you should be able to do decently against dts with mines, which leaves you vulnerable completely to reavers. 1 wraith will help you climb tech tree and completely render a reaver and shuttle ineffective without dragoons suport.
8. micro
1. first thing dies when you engage other than probes is your tank. Do not lose your tank. Lose your marines and you're fine, but lose your tanks and you're lost.
2. Lay mines next to goons. There's no point in laying mines next to your army. You're supposed to lay mines next to goons so that they are forced to move back and target mines instead of tanks.
3. Marine placement. Before engagement, marines should be next to tanks so that the goons can't pick marines off. During engagement, marines should be in front of tanks so that the goons can't pick off tanks without heavy marine fire.
4. Your 2nd tank did nothing to goons. It didn't even fire one shot after the probes were dead. Might as well push earlier with 1 tank than go with 2 tanks with one of them not even firing.
5. Your charged all yours marines to die. You had 1 marine and 1 tank left after this second engagement (with you not damaging toss at all)
6. What you had was not a contain. You had 2 tanks and ~4 vults and 1 marine against 10 goons and 4 zealots. You didn't have any simcity (bunk/turret/depot). Your tanks weren't firing at him at all. He was free to take his third because your men were across the bridge. That's not a contain.
Macro
1. You didn't know how to follow-up after your initial push (as outlined with aca note)
2. You had +800 mineral constantly for a while.
There's wayyyy too many fundamental problems to think about using the terrain with vultures right now. The problem is that
1. your BO is off (although I can see that it's deceptively off that you would think that you're on the right BO)
2. you need to micro better (understand that your win or loss depends on your 2 tanks with this BO)
3. you need to have a clear idea how to follow-up with your push (aca won't help you)
4. And your macro is off
This may sound discouraging, but trust me, this is not a problem with the BO; Idra's reasons for this BO being terrible has no application to this game which has more fundamental problems. Address your problems in the following order: macro, BO, micro, and follow-up and you'll be able to take down nexuses.
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On February 11 2010 05:07 Harem wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2010 03:45 Espers wrote:
I'm sure the Strong FD build should only be used on maps where it's actually hard to siege expand vs 10/15 gate or any strong 2 gate goon pressure. That's what I remember Stylish advocating anyway
Maps where it's powerful on would be Tau Cross, Neo Medusa, Longinus etc He was advocating that until Idra came in and told him how wrong he is and that strong FD is terrible vs both 10/15 and double nex. (where stylish thought strong fd raped both of them)
Can you tell me where I can find this series of posts? I want to know Idra's exact reasons. I tried searching but I couldn't find any likeable posts where Idra and Stylish directly addressed each other (with keyword FD)
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United States11390 Posts
On February 11 2010 10:44 nujgnoy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2010 05:07 Harem wrote:On February 11 2010 03:45 Espers wrote:
I'm sure the Strong FD build should only be used on maps where it's actually hard to siege expand vs 10/15 gate or any strong 2 gate goon pressure. That's what I remember Stylish advocating anyway
Maps where it's powerful on would be Tau Cross, Neo Medusa, Longinus etc He was advocating that until Idra came in and told him how wrong he is and that strong FD is terrible vs both 10/15 and double nex. (where stylish thought strong fd raped both of them) Can you tell me where I can find this series of posts? I want to know Idra's exact reasons. I tried searching but I couldn't find any likeable posts where Idra and Stylish directly addressed each other (with keyword FD)
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=93862¤tpage=2#27
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=90862¤tpage=2#22
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Strong FD is an aggressive build. The point of it is to punish 1 gate expand, or greedy play by the protoss, while still having a good mid-game economy. You should have 8 marines, 2 tanks, and vulture on rally.
You do NOT have to kill the nexus with it. The nexus is a big bonus. Basically, you want to kill as many goons as possible while saving your tanks. While microing your units, add factories for a 4/5fact timing. Because you have significantly destroyed his goon count, you will be able to end the game with a 4/5 fact with 1 add-on follow up. Save the 2 tanks, pump straight vultures from 3/4 facts, make 1 additional tank, for at least 3 (3 is the magic number) and go ram the units down his throat.
It also soft-counters 12nexus opening on maps like python, thanks to the 4/5 fact follow up. It will also soft-counter a 12 nexus opening on Moon glaive. However, I would avoid doing it on Desti, and FS.
The only time that it does not handle a 12 nexus opening on those maps is if the protoss has really good goon control and your own micro is lacking, otherwise I find strong FD incredibly strong on those maps.
It also Hard counters gate-expand. Do not do it against a DT opening. Your mines will be a few seconds too late.
It can fend off a 2 gate aggression, but you should siege expand against 2 gate aggression to get a faster CC.
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say someone 12 nexused on a map with close base distances (e.g python)
does the strong FD or a 2fac build now become viable?
are there any hard counters to a 12 nexus if the base distances are close is my question, aside from the standard bunker rush (which still leaves you behind)
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On February 11 2010 13:16 shinjin wrote:
say someone 12 nexused on a map with close base distances (e.g python)
does the strong FD or a 2fac build now become viable?
are there any hard counters to a 12 nexus if the base distances are close is my question, aside from the standard bunker rush (which still leaves you behind)
no.
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On February 11 2010 13:19 lazz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2010 13:16 shinjin wrote:
say someone 12 nexused on a map with close base distances (e.g python)
does the strong FD or a 2fac build now become viable?
are there any hard counters to a 12 nexus if the base distances are close is my question, aside from the standard bunker rush (which still leaves you behind) no.
Don't listen to this guy. Yes strong FD does work on python, even cross positions. Just make sure you micro well. That's why protoss don't 12 nexus on that map. They do it all the time on FS and matchpoint though. It's not a hard counter, but it works.
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EPT
