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So I decided to go with a Strong FD build, and with the exception of a few minor flaws in the build execution I think I did the push at a decent timing. Neither my factory or my tanks were very late. I know that I mismicroed a bit, but after watching this replay myself it doesn't seem like this would have gone that much better even with better micro.
My push arrives to his base when he already has 2 gateways up pumping dragoons, so I decided to not push in and rather set up smaller contain instead.
There isn't really that much to say about what happens after the 10 minute mark, I was at an disadvantage when he broke my contain and from there on I didn't play well enough to make up for that.
What I don't understand is how he could expand before me AND have more units than me at the same time.
I know I could execute the build better, I normally do it slightly better than I did it in this game, but I don't think I made so many errors that it had a huge impact on my push either.
http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=31126
Please don't slaughter my efforts too much, I am trying my hardest! D:
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On February 11 2010 03:17 Noah wrote:So I decided to go with a Strong FD build, and with the exception of a few minor flaws in the build execution I think I did the push at a decent timing. Neither my factory or my tanks were very late. I know that I mismicroed a bit, but after watching this replay myself it doesn't seem like this would have gone that much better even with better micro. My push arrives to his base when he already has 2 gateways up pumping dragoons, so I decided to not push in and rather set up smaller contain instead. There isn't really that much to say about what happens after the 10 minute mark, I was at an disadvantage when he broke my contain and from there on I didn't play well enough to make up for that. What I don't understand is how he could expand before me AND have more units than me at the same time. I know I could execute the build better, I normally do it slightly better than I did it in this game, but I don't think I made so many errors that it had a huge impact on my push either. http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=31126Please don't slaughter my efforts too much, I am trying my hardest! D:
My push arrives to his base when he already has 2 gateways up pumping dragoons, so I decided to not push in and rather set up smaller contain instead.
im pretty sure thats why, this isnt a containment build its an aggressive build to get up an expo(i think?) or punish greedier builds..
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Well isn't such a fast expansion considered greedy?
He went 1 gateway, Core into expansion.
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As far as I can tell about the Fake Double build (never really used it much) the point is to push the protoss back as far as you can toward his base and lay mines between you two while expanding behind it. He will break your force sooner or later.
The few times I've messed with it I've fallen back when I don't have vultures and tried to march forward when a vulture was near my force. Eventually you should just pull back into your base to defend and turtle up on your two bases.
I'm not super familiar with the Strong FD push though but I know the point of the build is certainly not to kill or contain your opponent like arb said.
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If they went to gate dragoon when you go FD it means he is going to play defensively and hold his ramp. Unless you have seige upgraded and brought scvs with you chances are your not going to break the protoss.
If you cant do alot of damage thats ok, since he went 2gate goons, get your expo up then back off and youll be ahead by just a little bit. Scout constantly. Try and figure out what the protoss is gonna do and adapt your build for the mid and late game.
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Well if you can't really expect to do anything useful with the Strong FD push then I don't really see the point in continuing using this build. Maybe I should just forget it for now and go Siege Expand in every game instead. As long as the map I play can be walled off Siege Expand will let me get my expansion earlier anyway.
Edit: To reply to the post above, he went 1 gate goon and got his expansion up before me . If I had backed off I would have been behind since he would have had his expansion up and running before me. Maybe my problem is that I should just swallow the BO disadvantage instead of trying too hard to get something out of the investment I put in those early units.
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The Strong FD kills 1 gate nexus. It allows you to actually destroy their nexus, and start building your own CC from thereon. The game is strongly in your favour from this point forward. It comes out even against 2 gate goon (but is very hard to micro against).
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I'm sure the Strong FD build should only be used on maps where it's actually hard to siege expand vs 10/15 gate or any strong 2 gate goon pressure. That's what I remember Stylish advocating anyway
Maps where it's powerful on would be Tau Cross, Neo Medusa, Longinus etc
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the old terran bo is supply 8 rax 10-11 gas 12
the new one is supply 9 rax 11 gas 12
flash is doing s9 r11 g11 for faster tank
the most macro bo (good for fd) is s9 r12 g12 cuz you wonna more minerals cuz of marins
you have done a s9 r10 g10 thats a no-no a big mistake
you havent dome scv for a lot of time, cutting really dont help you
your 3rd supply was really late and you stacked again with scvs and marins
you have builded your cc at like 650 mineral, that lol, good players build it at 399
also the push you have done is not good, the 2 tank is a bad tajming, you can do this vs 12nexus to do some damage if you dont wont to go 2fakt or vs rivers or 1gate robotics bos.
vs 2 gate goons it is weak, you need to go 1 tank and mines, 8 marins are also too much, better to put 2 scvs, like same dmg and better meat also can repair the tank and block goons cuz they are faster then marins
so weak fd 1tank 4-5 marins 1vulture mine
strong fd 1tank 5-6 marins 1vulture mine 2scvs
if you are able to do some damage is good to dont research sige, go streight speed so your harass will be so stronger, ih he push out you punish him
also dont contain with fd, and place mines at possible p expos (3rd-4th ecc)
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On February 11 2010 03:38 Noah wrote:
Well if you can't really expect to do anything useful with the Strong FD push then I don't really see the point in continuing using this build. Maybe I should just forget it for now and go Siege Expand in every game instead. As long as the map I play can be walled off Siege Expand will let me get my expansion earlier anyway.
Edit: To reply to the post above, he went 1 gate goon and got his expansion up before me . If I had backed off I would have been behind since he would have had his expansion up and running before me. Maybe my problem is that I should just swallow the BO disadvantage instead of trying too hard to get something out of the investment I put in those early units.
wait he went one gate core on you? Why didnt you win?
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On February 11 2010 03:51 ajmbek wrote:
the old terran bo is supply 8 rax 10-11 gas 12
the new one is supply 9 rax 11 gas 12
flash is doing s9 r11 g11 for faster tank
the most macro bo (good for fd) is s9 r12 g12 cuz you wonna more minerals cuz of marins
you have done a s9 r10 g10 thats a no-no a big mistake
you havent dome scv for a lot of time, cutting really dont help you
your 3rd supply was really late and you stacked again with scvs and marins
you have builded your cc at like 650 mineral, that lol, good players build it at 399
also the push you have done is not good, the 2 tank is a bad tajming, you can do this vs 12nexus to do some damage if you dont wont to go 2fakt or vs rivers or 1gate robotics bos.
vs 2 gate goons it is weak, you need to go 1 tank and mines, 8 marins are also too much, better to put 2 scvs, like same dmg and better meat also can repair the tank and block goons cuz they are faster then marins
so weak fd 1tank 4-5 marins 1vulture mine
strong fd 1tank 5-6 marins 1vulture mine 2scvs
if you are able to do some damage is good to dont research sige, go streight speed so your harass will be so stronger, ih he push out you punish him
also dont contain with fd, and place mines at possible p expos (3rd-4th ecc)
Well it seems like you are disagreeing with the build I am using, the one I am using is the one that is on Liquipedia: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/FD_(vs._Protoss)#Modern_Variation
It doesnt say so there, but I'm 99% certain that you're supposed to have 8 marines when pusing out with a Strong FD build. I can't really argue for or against my build vs what you are saying as I don't have the knowledge to say that the build listed on Liquipedia is right or wrong. I'm assuming that it's a good build since it is there though.
Also to the comments about how I should have won vs this build, this is what I don't understand either. I don't think that my execution of the Strong (Modern) FD build listed on Liquipedia is that poor, yet he still had an army advantage and an earlier expo when I reached his base.
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edit for misinformation 
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Dont use that build. Theres a reason why no one uses it anymore. Terran's started experimenting with it as like a soft counter against 12 nexus and 10/15 on medusa but everyone discarded it after a few tries. It only works vs people who dont know how to micro dragoons and people who never faced the build before. Just use regular siege expand. You cut too many scvs early on for the build that even if you get some kills you're still behind. Its the problem with guides that dont get updated. Builds appear and die on sc. Sometimes they die for stupid reasons like carriers which are still viable but somethings die because they just arent viable. Honestly you can go ahead and use it and if you micro decently you'll probably get some free wins vs d players but you're going to lose to people who know how to micro goons and adapt.
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9 suply
10 rax
10 gas
15 fact
16 suply
22 suply
28 suply
40 cc
strong fake double is strong
improved goon micro is improved
just play better than your opponent
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On February 11 2010 04:19 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
Dont use that build. Theres a reason why no one uses it anymore. Terran's started experimenting with it as like a soft counter against 12 nexus and 10/15 on medusa but everyone discarded it after a few tries. It only works vs people who dont know how to micro dragoons and people who never faced the build before. Just use regular siege expand. You cut too many scvs early on for the build that even if you get some kills you're still behind. Its the problem with guides that dont get updated. Builds appear and die on sc. Sometimes they die for stupid reasons like carriers which are still viable but somethings die because they just arent viable. Honestly you can go ahead and use it and if you micro decently you'll probably get some free wins vs d players but you're going to lose to people who know how to micro goons and adapt.
yes, fd is bad
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United States11393 Posts
On February 11 2010 03:45 Espers wrote:
I'm sure the Strong FD build should only be used on maps where it's actually hard to siege expand vs 10/15 gate or any strong 2 gate goon pressure. That's what I remember Stylish advocating anyway
Maps where it's powerful on would be Tau Cross, Neo Medusa, Longinus etc
He was advocating that until Idra came in and told him how wrong he is and that strong FD is terrible vs both 10/15 and double nex. (where stylish thought strong fd raped both of them)
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Well this kinda sucks because I've made quite alot of effort to learn that build, but I'm not going to ignore the responses I got here. Looks like I'll replace Strong FD with a 2 fact build, and I'll start using Siege Expand as my main starter.
I guess FD is only to be used on maps without a choke and where a 2 supply wall-in isn't possible, which means none of the standard ICCup maps.
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My (nooby) experience has seen that Strong FD doesn't "rape" 10/15 or 12nex.
It's too slow to counter a 12nex, but should at least rough them up if they haven't followed up with 2 gates pumping units. Because of the econ disadvantage, a weaker FD that gets your CC up sooner but still has marines and a vulture out to harass the nexus is preferable.
Against 10/15 it matches the Protoss units pretty evenly (counter fire with fire) and you will have your expansion down at a good time. I've seen Gretorp go 2vult with 5 marines against 10/15 and achieve an even faster CC using minimal units. This is a little risky and may require a bunker if the mines fail, but 10/15 will have late obs and this is probably an all-around better choice than 2 tanks and a million marines.
I like to go Strong FD occasionally just to catch 1gate expand off guard. If you micro well and kill the nexus, that's a gg without the full investment of a 2fac.
9,10,10 is correct timing for the build. You can also do a Strong FD from an 8rax opening (same army at same timing, but fewer SCVs) if you want to gamble on stopping a 12nex in addition to 1gate expand, but this totally cripples your economy and I wouldn't recommend it unless you're aware of the consequences.
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mmp the problem is that it seems like I have to micro my terran units so much better than my opponent has to micro his protoss units. If a build requires me to have significantly better micro than my opponent I consider it to be weak anyway. As long as I have that much better micro I should win the game regardless of what builds either of us are using.
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if you want an agressive opening try to learn nadas 2 fact build
9depot
10rac
11gas
16fact -> shop
16depot
18fact
22depot
make tanks from 1st fact make vultures from 2nd fact
research mines or speed your choice but move out when you have 2-3 tanks
look it up on liquipedia
edit: vod
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/10074_Bisu_vs_firebathero/vod
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EPT
