EPT[H]Why did this Strong FD push fail? - Page 2
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lu_cid
United States428 Posts
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mmp
United States2130 Posts
On February 11 2010 05:30 Noah wrote: mmp the problem is that it seems like I have to micro my terran units so much better than my opponent has to micro his protoss units. If a build requires me to have significantly better micro than my opponent I consider it to be weak anyway. As long as I have that much better micro I should win the game regardless of what builds either of us are using. Well Terran macro is also harder than Protoss macro, but that doesn't mean you should be playing Protoss, right?  Each rush build is designed to give your gosu micro the fairest chance at overcoming the Protoss zealot/goon count under certain conditions, because if he has too many units it's just 1a2a3a imba. Keep in mind that most builds aren't intended to gain a fast 'gg', but maybe to hurt the Protoss econ, or to lower the dragoon count, or to sneak a vulture inside and get intel. Other times it is just a good exchange if you can put pressure on your opponent while still keeping up in econ. Just use the right build for the right situation and think about how your early game build will help you achieve your midgame objectives. | ||
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mmp
United States2130 Posts
On February 11 2010 05:42 lu_cid wrote: I use this build all the time with great results. Usually I kill the toss's expo if he expanded quickly, and get my own expansion up in the mean time. It's fine against 2gate builds as well, I usually get some mines up at his natural and my exp is still faster. It does have some trouble against fast dt or reavers though. There is no scv cutting in the build other than at 10 supply. If your Strong FD arrives at the Protoss natural and there is no Nexus, RUN HOME ASAP LOL. Don't forget to lay a mine on the natural location. ^^ | ||
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Noah
Norway164 Posts
Also the problem with FD is that you're supposed to scout at 15, and when you find his base you're usually so far into your FD opening that you can't really switch it anyway as you've already made quite an investment into early Marines anyway. | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
That being said, the next advice applies to all FD variants (and 2 facts). The goal of the push is to have your marines take damage so your tank doesn't get killed instantly, and that force forces the dragoons to engage and pick apart marines or risk not having enough to engage at his base. The byproduct of this is that you have vultures which go behind his retreating goons and mine up behind him so he can't run away. If you do this correctly toss WILL lose dragoons. If toss has his dragoons all at the front line trying to just break your push, take your vults and just run into his base and start mining his gates and popping probes. The economic damage you do to him can be quite devastating, especially if you mine his ramp and get into his main. And, he'll probably kill your tank and marines, but you have vultures with mines to keep your nat secure and there's nothing he can do to stop your own expansion. | ||
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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
On February 11 2010 05:30 Noah wrote: mmp the problem is that it seems like I have to micro my terran units so much better than my opponent has to micro his protoss units. If a build requires me to have significantly better micro than my opponent I consider it to be weak anyway. As long as I have that much better micro I should win the game regardless of what builds either of us are using. Versus Strong FD, Protoss has to spend the entire battle retreating, taking well-timed potshots, and retreating again, because your army will rape his horribly if they actually meet. Meanwhile, you're controlling Tanks, which shoot immediately at long range from behind a meatshield, marines, which shoot immediately and are expendable, and vultures which shoot immediately + are expendable + force the Protoss to split his fire across specific little mini-nukes instead of your units. (Plus, he's raped if the vultures successfully get between his units and his base.) Oh, and the Protoss is controlling the clumsiest unit in Starcraft. Cry some more. | ||
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love1another
United States1844 Posts
On February 11 2010 03:17 Noah wrote: What I don't understand is how he could expand before me AND have more units than me at the same time. Dude... this is the freaking life story of PvT. On a helpful note, SevereDevil is totally right. The only times I manage to survive a SFD at the D level (which happens to be every time at the D level) is when the T fails to understand the map and gives me an opportunity to lol-ambush his push from high ground/flank. | ||
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mmp
United States2130 Posts
Seige expand is standard. If a Protoss consistently 12nexes to your seige expo, throw in a 14cc or bbs once in a while and they should get the hint. | ||
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17731 Posts
On February 11 2010 05:55 Noah wrote: Well the difference between switching to Protoss and to another Terran opener is quite big! Changing to Siege Expand or 2 fact is a tad less drastic. There is no way I'm betraying my Terran brethren to play as filthy Protoss scum anyway! Also the problem with FD is that you're supposed to scout at 15, and when you find his base you're usually so far into your FD opening that you can't really switch it anyway as you've already made quite an investment into early Marines anyway. I have no idea where you're getting your information from. There is no law that you're suppose to scout at 15 and never any other timing. Just because flash does it doesnt mean you should blindly copy him. Know why he does it, why he can get away with it and why you cant. If you go 11/11 you can scout at 13 not 15. You're playing randoms on iccup not progamers who play really unpredictable. I really feel you're learning, playing and thinking the wrong way about sc that really is hindering your growth as a player. | ||
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Noah
Norway164 Posts
I don't think I would get very far if I decide to make my own opening build myself based on my whooping total of no experience at all. Edit: Even with an earlier scout there is no guarantee that I will find my opponent in time to change my opening build according to his unless its a 2 player map. If I scout in the wrong direction I will still be well into a FD build before reaching the Protoss base and I will already have invested in Marines. | ||
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mmp
United States2130 Posts
You could have dealt more damage getting out of your base before losing 2 marines. This is one sucky thing about doing this build on a ramped map so be more careful. You can float your barracks as you're leaving your base. Bring an SCV with your rush to meatshield and to make a bunker if you should make it to the nexus. Most importantly, use your vultures better. Your first vulture died achieving nothing. This is necessary for a 2fac rush as well. On Fighting Spirit, you can sneak a vulture through his 3rd to get access behind the dragoons. You want to attack with your marines at the same time as the vulture is moving in, forcing the dragoons to stay and kill the vulture but suffering marine fire; they otherwise retreat from the spider mine but you want to force them all the way back to the ramp. Try to lay one mine before sending in your vulture so it won't die in vain. Make sure your factory is rallying more vultures to the fight (they produce surprisingly quickly). If you're in the center of the map, run the vultures behind the dragoons and set up a trap for the dragoons. You really don't want to go for a contain from one factory. It's better to just go home and be prepared for a possible drop. | ||
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Noah
Norway164 Posts
I am aware that it would be better if I had been able to micro better, I need to micro more to get better at it. The reason why I chose Strong FD as a build in the first place was to get used to being offensive and to doing pushes and learning how to micro on a smaller scale. I still feel that this isn't quite as good as just going Siege Expand. I'm going to spend my time figuring out how to make a proper push off 4/5/6 factories in response to what Protoss is doing instead of microing in what feels like an uphill battle. | ||
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nujgnoy
United States204 Posts
2. 8/10 depot This is a more fundamental problem with your approach to SFD. You pretty much build an 8/10 depot because you pull your 7th scv. You're supposed to use 8th scv that pops up to build your depot. Pulling 7th 1. gets earlier depot which lets you make scvs nonstop. 2. there's no mineral stockpiling (at least in your rep) 3. Your depot scv had to wait for some seconds before you had the money to build rax Bottom line: You can build scvs continuously at the cost of delayed rax and refinery Pulling 8th scv 1. Gets later depot and you cannot make scvs for some seconds 2. when depot is done, you have over 200 minerals (I think closer to 250) 3. You can build rax and ref and wait only few seconds to build the next scv Bottom line: You can build rax and refinery quickly at the cost of not building scvs continuously. But even then there's not much scv-cut time or scvs waiting around The logic of SFD is to get factory asap for fast 2 tanks from 1 factory. Pulling 7th scv is supposed to maximize economy by letting you build scvs constantly through avoiding 10/10 supply cap. Your depot timing is a contradiction to SFD, and this is why you end up with a ton of wait-time to build buildings. This is probably difficult to understand so just pull your 8th scv, not your 7th. You'll have some time where you don't build scvs which may be foreign to you, but this lets you accumulate money to build rax and refinery quickly. 3. You should have 100 gas at 14, which you should use immediately to build a 14 fac 4. You got supply blocked at 26/26. If you want to be aggressive you have to avoid sup cap or your timing will be off 5. You have to keep building vults nonstop after your 2nd tank. You were sitting at 400+ minerals for such a long time without building anything. 6. You can't just let your marines be killed so easily. The protoss should feel that his goon threat to fire on marines is met with your 2-tank threat to fire on his goons. You can't let 1 tank and 8 marines engage his goon force, he gets off too much damage on you than you do to him. 7. Your follow-up after the push is not optimal. Your priority should be 1. constant vultures through good macro and supply depot making 2. safety against dt/reaver. At this point you have mine, and scan will come too late and not enough to be cost effective. Build an ebay and bring scvs to build turret/bunker. Academy doesn't fit in well as a follow-up to SFD. If he made DTs, you would face them even before your aca is finished, let alone scan. You would either win or lose against dts with mines alone. And even if his dt comes after scan, you get 1 scan from which the dt can easily walk away from...not a good investment. Ebay or even factory is better. Actually what some pros do is to get wraith to counter reaver play. With theoretical micro, you should be able to do decently against dts with mines, which leaves you vulnerable completely to reavers. 1 wraith will help you climb tech tree and completely render a reaver and shuttle ineffective without dragoons suport. 8. micro 1. first thing dies when you engage other than probes is your tank. Do not lose your tank. Lose your marines and you're fine, but lose your tanks and you're lost. 2. Lay mines next to goons. There's no point in laying mines next to your army. You're supposed to lay mines next to goons so that they are forced to move back and target mines instead of tanks. 3. Marine placement. Before engagement, marines should be next to tanks so that the goons can't pick marines off. During engagement, marines should be in front of tanks so that the goons can't pick off tanks without heavy marine fire. 4. Your 2nd tank did nothing to goons. It didn't even fire one shot after the probes were dead. Might as well push earlier with 1 tank than go with 2 tanks with one of them not even firing. 5. Your charged all yours marines to die. You had 1 marine and 1 tank left after this second engagement (with you not damaging toss at all) 6. What you had was not a contain. You had 2 tanks and ~4 vults and 1 marine against 10 goons and 4 zealots. You didn't have any simcity (bunk/turret/depot). Your tanks weren't firing at him at all. He was free to take his third because your men were across the bridge. That's not a contain. Macro 1. You didn't know how to follow-up after your initial push (as outlined with aca note) 2. You had +800 mineral constantly for a while. There's wayyyy too many fundamental problems to think about using the terrain with vultures right now. The problem is that 1. your BO is off (although I can see that it's deceptively off that you would think that you're on the right BO) 2. you need to micro better (understand that your win or loss depends on your 2 tanks with this BO) 3. you need to have a clear idea how to follow-up with your push (aca won't help you) 4. And your macro is off This may sound discouraging, but trust me, this is not a problem with the BO; Idra's reasons for this BO being terrible has no application to this game which has more fundamental problems. Address your problems in the following order: macro, BO, micro, and follow-up and you'll be able to take down nexuses. | ||
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nujgnoy
United States204 Posts
On February 11 2010 05:07 Harem wrote: He was advocating that until Idra came in and told him how wrong he is and that strong FD is terrible vs both 10/15 and double nex. (where stylish thought strong fd raped both of them) Can you tell me where I can find this series of posts? I want to know Idra's exact reasons. I tried searching but I couldn't find any likeable posts where Idra and Stylish directly addressed each other (with keyword FD) | ||
Harem
United States11393 Posts
On February 11 2010 10:44 nujgnoy wrote: Can you tell me where I can find this series of posts? I want to know Idra's exact reasons. I tried searching but I couldn't find any likeable posts where Idra and Stylish directly addressed each other (with keyword FD) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=93862¤tpage=2#27 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=90862¤tpage=2#22 | ||
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dyos
United States108 Posts
You do NOT have to kill the nexus with it. The nexus is a big bonus. Basically, you want to kill as many goons as possible while saving your tanks. While microing your units, add factories for a 4/5fact timing. Because you have significantly destroyed his goon count, you will be able to end the game with a 4/5 fact with 1 add-on follow up. Save the 2 tanks, pump straight vultures from 3/4 facts, make 1 additional tank, for at least 3 (3 is the magic number) and go ram the units down his throat. It also soft-counters 12nexus opening on maps like python, thanks to the 4/5 fact follow up. It will also soft-counter a 12 nexus opening on Moon glaive. However, I would avoid doing it on Desti, and FS. The only time that it does not handle a 12 nexus opening on those maps is if the protoss has really good goon control and your own micro is lacking, otherwise I find strong FD incredibly strong on those maps. It also Hard counters gate-expand. Do not do it against a DT opening. Your mines will be a few seconds too late. It can fend off a 2 gate aggression, but you should siege expand against 2 gate aggression to get a faster CC. | ||
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shinjin
United States398 Posts
does the strong FD or a 2fac build now become viable? are there any hard counters to a 12 nexus if the base distances are close is my question, aside from the standard bunker rush (which still leaves you behind) | ||
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lazz
Australia3119 Posts
On February 11 2010 13:16 shinjin wrote: say someone 12 nexused on a map with close base distances (e.g python) does the strong FD or a 2fac build now become viable? are there any hard counters to a 12 nexus if the base distances are close is my question, aside from the standard bunker rush (which still leaves you behind) no. | ||
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dyos
United States108 Posts
Don't listen to this guy. Yes strong FD does work on python, even cross positions. Just make sure you micro well. That's why protoss don't 12 nexus on that map. They do it all the time on FS and matchpoint though. It's not a hard counter, but it works. | ||
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