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I wanted to compile a list of strategies, timings, and build orders for island maps for possible use in Liquipedia. I don't want to read about imbalances, so go ahead and post how a Zerg player can play the cards he has been dealt. I am, by far, most interested in reading possible Zerg strategies. Maps like Island Hop, Halls of Valhalla and even maps like 815 and Neo Forbidden Zone are fine to discuss.
What strategies are available for:
ZvZ
ZvT
ZvP
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TvT
TvZ
TvP
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PvP
PvZ
PvT
General Questions
1)Does Zerg have to first tech to mutalisks most of the time?
2)Corsairs steam roll mutalisks on islands, so in PvZ Zerg should make what?
3)When is shuttle speed a must-have?
4)I read one time the first 10 minutes are a killer for Protoss in PvT, why is that if it is true?
5)Are corsairs using Disruption Web, or arbiters using recalls and stasis, more effective in general?
6)How should Zergs play with the complications of the vast amount of gas needed for Overlord upgrades, units, and tech buildings?
7)What role do the following units have in strategies, if any, or should they not be built ever? (Dark Templars, Reavers, Lurkers, Queens, Defilers, Siege Tanks, M&M, Ghosts)
Some Terran Strategies & Considerations
+ Show Spoiler +-Terrans can fly buildings for map control.
-Terran can fast expand after 14 scvs if there are no mineral blocks while Protoss has to wait for a shuttle. This gives Terrans a huge advantage in the early game which Protoss players may not be able to catch up to.
-Terran Dropships are faster than shuttles without protoss upgrade done which is a big advantage.
-Terran battle cruisers ability to yamato and science vessels ability to EMP Shockwave can argubably cause Terran air to be better than Protoss air.
Some Protoss Strategies & Considerations
-+ Show Spoiler +Protoss players normally have to play for the late game on island maps because it takes them longer to tech. If Protoss can tech arbiters they will "own" with recalls and stasis. Also, stasis will have a large effect on the late game.
-Protoss players can send their scouts before their shuttles before dropping. This is so the scouts act as meat shields and tank the damage.
-Superior mobility lies with protoss because of shuttle speed and arbiter recalls. This makes it difficult for a terran to defend multiple islands at once.
-Cannons of course for against mutalisks.
-+1 attack on sairs to kill scourges much quicker.
Some Zerg Strategies & Considerations
+ Show Spoiler +I played in an FFA where a zerg pumped nothing but scourges off several gas geysers against mass battle cruisers and it seemed to work well . . . .
Sunkens to counter drops.
Spire and Scourges first to protect scouting overlords from corsairs and wraiths?
Burrowed Hydras in surprise attacks and Queens are underused.
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With zerg on islands I have 2 main strategies (however dont remember the exact BO). Usually vs protoss it goes 2nd hatch->gas->pool->lair->2nd lair->Den at some point-> drop+overlord speed togeher in the lairs-> pressuring the protoss with hidras while expanding for 2nd gas and when I manage-> spire for scourges and later when 3rd gas eventually mass mutas with defence upgrades. I do this because I dont have scourge+muta control versus corsairs and 2nd lair costs 150/100 extra but gives critical hydra drop/map control time advantage according to my understandings.
Against Terran I go gas-.>pool-> lair-> 2nd hatchery-? Spire+ Drop ugrade when lair ready-> trying to map control with the mutas not allowing terran to drop out of his base while I expand somewhere. also the fast lair helps dealing with 2 port wraiths eventually.
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Zerg is just so far behind in these TT
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I'm pretty sure there isn't really that great of a balance on island maps. Pretty much everything i've seen for P and Z is dependent on fast drops whereas T has lift off so they can expand and defend without going fast wraiths or something.
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I think you should distinguish between island maps (Dire Straits) and semi-island maps (Hall of Valhalla). Shuttle speed is definitely a must-have on island maps and on semi-island maps it is oftentimes more viable to concentrate unit production outside of the main base.
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I just play pvz instead of tvz on island maps because its so ridiculously easy. Opening 1stargate, +1air -> robo if den, 2nd stargate if spire first. So easy...
Anyways, if I remember correctly, at least for island maps with a very close expo(ie gorky) most zergs opened like 9 gas, 11 pool(or something similiar, I don't play zerg so I don't know the timings, basically you want 100gas when your pool finishes). Get lair with first 100 gas, drop next, and slow drop expand into either speed lords + upgraded hydras, or muta depending on the opponents opening.
If you're looking for good island map games, look back 4 years or so when Gorky Island was a WCG map. Lots of top players playing this map competitively at the time.
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ZvT: Don't play them.
ZvP: Don't play them.
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I've played ZvP a few times on island maps. It's not as bad as you guys are making out.....
Sure, corsairs rape everything, but, if you get some mutas/scourge plus drop, you can drop and double expand while harassing a bit. By the time critical mass of sairs is up, you have 3 bases defended with sunkens and spores plus a few hydras.
Tech to hive,
Get Devouers,
.....,
Profit!
Btw - Paradoxxx is a pretty awesome island map. Kinda sucks that the easiest expansion is min-only, but, 2 gas in the main helps out a lot.
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I greatly enjoy island maps and try to play them whenever I can, so I should be able to give you workable advice.
Zerg
Zerg on islands is hard, but fun. It bothers me when I see Zerg players bitch about imbalance just because they can't do their normal 12 hatch style.
The ideal strategy depends somewhat on the map. I think that muta/scourge is actually the strongest, but it's also very hard to use because it requires great micro and it requires that you are able to completely stay on top of the game. Scourging that first shuttle/dropship is critical and if you miss, you could be in for a rough fight. Vs other Z players this is obviously not such an issue.
An easier to work with is hydra drop. On "islands" like Estrella, OL drop tech as soon as you get lair and get hydra range then speed. Get Evo pretty quickly so that you can get upgrades (I like +attack better for islands) and spore if needed (if he masses sairs). On "true" islands like Dire Straits, an old school strategy is to double lair in your main and get drop+speed and move hydras around the map. Hydras tend to be easier to use, but has the disadvantage that you lose a great deal of critical mobility.
Try to find replays from WCG Korea back when the map Estrella was in use. Those types of strategies should still be viable.
Q1) No. You can use drop and hydras. If you're doing an "island" map like Estrella, getting range for hydras first may help vs P since it will allow you to better protect your OL. From there you can ferry shit onto the lower level. On some maps like Valhalla where it's not easy to secure a second gas, going hydras first is *the* way to go.
Q2) Corsairs rape mutas when they have any kind of numbers advantage, but they suck balls when there are only one or two of them. If you open mutas, you want to keep his corsair count low. You won't be able to fight a toss massing sairs without at least 2 gas (assuming he still only has 1).
Q6) Your Zerg build should open with gas and pool quickly, teching to lair quickly. You usually want drop first, with speed coming when you can afford it (after your second gas unless you're doing 2 lair style on "true" islands). If I muta, I like to start carapace upgrade as soon as I can as well.
Q7-Z) Queen parasite is great for keeping track of where his shit is. Parasite on shuttles and dropships is especially important, but wait until you have some gas. Ensnare also works wonders at controlling wraith, muta, corsair, or victory fleets (car or BC). Remember that ensnare will make cloaked units visible if you ensnare the area the cloaked unit is located at.
Defilers are great against victory fleets. Darkswarm to cover any ground you have, plague to dish out massive damage.
Lurker can do wonders if you can drop a couple in his mining. Great for harrassment.
Any more advice would have to pertain more specifically to given maps. For example, in ZvP on Estrella, I find that there's a bit of rock-paper-scissors involved. You have two builds (hydra or muta) while Protoss has three (fast templar archives + shuttle for ground control, 1 stargate/1 robo, or 2 stargate). The last one mentioned for toss is by far his worst option since it is not very effective against hydra. I can't remember ever seeing a professional player use it. Fast temp requires him to get onto the lower ground quickly and then map control. If you can delay him from getting down, you should be okay, but if he gets onto the low ground too quickly, you can be in for some serious trouble. Star/robo is the more obvious strategy, but if you can keep his sair count down and/or snipe his first shuttle, the game should be yours. If you see 2 stargates, immediately switch to hydras and get spore.
Terran
Terran is great for islands, probably the strongest. Goliath drops are just ridiculous (especially with +1 attack), wraiths can really fuck up your air if the Terran has the gas for it and he can float buildings.
Q7-T) You have to ask if tanks should be built? LOL! They fucking rock on any map. ;; Mid/late game power is dependent on them. Period.
M&M drops can rape Zerg and can be good against Protoss if you catch him by surprise. M&M should not be built vs Terran unless he's a newb and you can hide a rax in his base and make fun of him.
Ghost lockdown can be critical against other BC or carriers, but is in practice very hard to use.
Protoss
Your strategy is entirely dependent on his race. Protoss can be good, but I think they are the least versatile. However, you also have by far the strongest endgame if you can get into a good position. Car + arb (yes both) rapes everything.
Q3) Always ASAP in any MU.
Q4) Goliath drops are powerful, but Protoss can what? Only 2 goons fit on a shuttle, so goon drops are much less effective. Reaver is easily blocked by Terran metal when he only has to defend 1 base. Zealot drops are just LOL without zeal speed. DT drops are the only offensive option I find favorable. Generally I get ranged goons and play defensive, securing bases to use during this time, teching to cars as soon as I can. However, if it's "island" like Estrella where only the main bases are on islands, then I will mass gate on the lower ground and power hard, working to control the map.
Q5) I use sairs vs Zerg, arbiters vs Protoss and Terran.
Q-7) DT drops can be good and against Z during mid/late game sair+dt can be powerful since you probably already have sairs (possibly with attack upgrade) anyway.
Reavers are very strong as an opening vs Z and pretty much necessary against other P. Vs T they still work, but not nearly as well.
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Here is a quote from ToKoreaWithLove from 2005 on ZvP which still is a good post IMO. Found it with the Search funciton.
You have an island map. You are zerg. You know how things work; toss will open quick sair and know everything you do, and by the time you have drops he KNOWS you go hydra and just had all the time in the world to get an expansion, halt sair production and have reavers ready. PvZ is reversed; suddenly you are the defensive, slow one while the toss player for once can keep his army on the move instead of defending a choke or trying to break out of a badass contain.
Instad you open a daring build where your single hatch manages to spit out two scourges right after his first sair arrives. At about the same time your drop ability is ready and you have +1 armor working in the spire and is pumping scourge and scouting around the protoss base. You have a spore in your main to aid in the early air battles. You now take two expansions, both with gas. One of them might be far away since you hid an overlord below a high ground expansion. All this time the protoss is forced to be carefull with his early sair, so he either expands or goes 1 gate sair 1 robo reaver or two gate sair.
1. If he expands he has few sairs and few reavers. You slowly work your way to a more muta-based force and has that armor upgrade ready. You either start +2 armor or jump right to hive, depending on situation. Eitherway; by this time the protoss is getting agressive with a sair force. Might have a shuttle around, but your spores can help you and your scourge picks off the shuttle while your spread out mutas can battle the sairs okai. If he has many many sairs on no reaver you get a spore more or something and fall back. His sairs alone is no threat, remember, and he has to hurt you before hive tech.
2. He goes 1 gate sairs and reaver drop. You laught at him and crush him with a mass of scourge from every direction while mutas take fire and clean up.
3. He plays defensively while adding bases and teching to everything you fear. Now you're on your own - take expansions yourself and mix up a nice force of muta and devs. Max out of armor grades, attack is also nice but hard to find gas for. Might want to mix defilers, depending on the map layout.
You are not trying to kill him with your muta, you are stalling him and forcing him to mass an air force that is more or less obsolete when you get hive tech. The threat of mass muta destroying expansion attemps will force him to make sairs, and thats importand. Your lack of mobility will be your death as a hydra user.
Versus two gate sairs I would defend myself with spores while building up a muta/scourge force. The toss can't stop your expansions without ground, and if he pressures hard with 2 gate sairs without expansion/later expansion there will always be a window where he has to cut production for robo and defensive buildings. In this window you will have the air superiority you are aiming for and you should be working on hive. 12 sairs versus 12 muta with a mass of scourge is not that hard, just let your mutas (spread) take some hits while flanking with scourge. Also expand when the toss does - once you have 4 gas and greater spire no number of sairs can kill your dev-backed air army.
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I think knowing how to play Terran v Terran and Protoss v Protoss is a lot more common knowledge than knowing how to play Protoss v Terran and Terran v Protoss. Can you give me some tips on how to play PvT and TvP please?
Topics to talk about:
Timings
What happens in the first 10 minutes PvT, TvP.
How the fact that Terrans can fit better units into their transports can help them strategically.
The standard strategies Terrans and Protoss players employ against each other.
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EPT
