EPTOn October 17 2009 14:45 jalstar wrote:
hallucinated dark archons are the key to winning pvz
hallucinated dark archons are the key to winning pvz
i lol'd
[I] PvP Full game build - Page 4
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da_head
Canada3350 Posts
i lol'd | ||
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jtype
England2167 Posts
To me personally, the best use for hallucinations are not really for messing with your opponent's head (although that can be effective), but more for using the game's AI to your advantage, ie. hallucinating a bunch of shuttles so that your real one doesn't get targeted first and taken out by static defenses. Making your opponent waste storms on hallucinated units, on the surface, seems like it would be a win/win. It's not as good as it seems though, as not only will you be less likely to have any storms now either, but also, the time you spent on hallucinating your units, could have been spent macro-ing up more actual units and/or getting better army positioning (which, as we all know, is a massive part of PvP). Correct me if I'm misunderstanding your idea here, but I can see two main situations coming from this: 1) You hallucinate a large portion of your army and send them into the battle first, so as to keep your real army safe and make your opponent waste a few spells and mess with his head a bit. Pros: -He's just wasted a few storms and for a split-second he's a little bit confused as to why your units are disappearing so quickly. Cons: - He quickly recovers from this and realizes that, the resources (minerals,gas,time,APM) you spent on that trick, he spent on macro and army positioning. - You now have to move the rest of your army (your real army) into position now, most likely costing you the battle. Or, you could retreat and save your army, but then this whole thing would be a waste of time anyway. - You now have less, if any, HT energy. - He now get's the psychological advantage; knowing that a mind-game that you so clearly committed to, has failed. 2) You hallucinate a large portion of your army and mix them in with your real units, increasing the apparent size of your army. Pros: - His units are now taking some real damage from some of yours and he thinks that there's more units than there actually are. - When he storms the front of your army, it doesn't completely disappear in the blink of an eye. Cons: - His storms are damaging some of your real units anyway. - Once your hallucinated units disappear, you're left with a smaller bunch of units; out of position and already taking damage. - He quickly recovers from this and realizes that, the resources (minerals,gas,time,APM) you spent on that trick, he spent on macro and army positioning. - You now have to move the rest of your army (your real army) into position now, most likely costing you the battle. Or, you could retreat and save your army, but then this whole thing would be a waste of time anyway. - You now have less, if any, HT energy. - He now get's the psychological advantage; knowing that a mind-game that you so clearly committed to, has failed. So, really, is it worth the spending of so many resources on something that only gives you a split-second advantage, before see-sawing back into a massive disadvantage for yourself? | ||
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fanatacist
10319 Posts
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ultramagnetics
Poland215 Posts
->Hallucinating zealots to drag mines in pvt is obviously useful, hallucinating arbies/shuttles also. ->In pvz hallucinated archons are extremely useful. Also, if you need to make an archon, and have templars with extra energy, use up your hallucinate and then make archon. ->Pvp, what if your have templars out with energy but storm isn't done researching. If its a tight situation (opponent pressuring you, or opponent taking another base), you can use your hallucinate right away, rather then waiting for storm. | ||
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Gnarly
United States151 Posts
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MuffinDude
United States3837 Posts
And dark archon is just a waste. Your da must be in position just in case the arbiter goes stasis or recall, but then you just wasted your feedback on arbiter and he'll just storm you to death. And most people get early detection, so going for fast dt will usually be deflected. I can easily get obs out or get 1 cannon on each base to just counter the dt. You say that your opponent wasted 150~300 min on cannon? Well congratz, you just wasted time and resources getting dt when you barely did any damage with it. Your strategies may work in D-, but once you get to higher level, it'll fail. And hallucination suck, just watch rock v chalrenge that went into tie. Rock tries to break into chalrenge's fortified base with hallucination/arbiter, but chalrenge just stormed the hallucination and easily killed the arbiter whenever rock tried it. And who cares if I don't know which one. Lets say you use hallucinate 6 times to get a control group of army. You just spent 600 energy when I could of spend 8 storms. With just 3 storms, I can take out your hallucinated army while doing damage to your real army and 5 more storms to dish out extra damage. While I kick your ass with storm, you have no storm to damage my units. You'll lose easily. Hallucination is in there because it can be useful sometimes, but just because blizzard added the skill doesn't mean you have to use it. They also didn't add the skill because they think that its awesome and balance the game out. Its just another option that the protoss player could use, but not all options are good options. Mind control takes too much energy and time. If you don't spend it on reavers or something, your opponent will just come in and roll over you while you tech to mc because you don't have the reavers to fight back. | ||
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da_head
Canada3350 Posts
On October 18 2009 03:11 ultramagnetics wrote: ->Pvp, what if your have templars out with energy but storm isn't done researching. If its a tight situation (opponent pressuring you, or opponent taking another base), you can use your hallucinate right away, rather then waiting for storm. why the hell would u upgrade hallucination b4 storm? o.O | ||
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ultramagnetics
Poland215 Posts
Anyways, to gnarly: If you want to have fun with this strategy that's awesome- starcraft is about having fun. But it's a very weak strategy that will very rarely win against the same level opponent. Quoting Gnarly: "To counter DT, you can either go DT, or play safe. What is noted about playing safe is that it doesn't give you any advantage. Getting early obs does deflect a DT rush, yes. But if you can't rush into his base, why not just chill out with those DTs for a second? If I opt to rush, and have to pull back, I still have those DTs and I still have the threat of walking in once he moves out, if he doesn't have enough detection. But going early obs means later storm, and most likely reaver play. My hallucinations don't need to worry about storm, they will be facing reavers." You are assuming that a DT gives you automatic map control and allow you to get an early advantage. That is completely wrong- and unless you kill some probes, dts put you way behind in the game. Also, dt play is very easy to detect, any protoss can keep the probe in your base until the first goon- meaning that he will see a lack of upgrade, lack of 2 gates, and your citadel will be delayed. Even if you get rid of the probe, protoss can get suspicious of you going dts by seeing the weak unit count/composition on your ramp. That will prompt any decent protoss to get earlier obs and own you. Anyways, most protoss go 2 or 3 gate goons with robo facility and obs or reaver. Both of these strategies own any sort of DT play (a strong speedlot/archon build after DTs can be hard to deal with though.. but you're not doing that). Why does standard dragoon or reaver play own DTs? Cause goons can out micro similar amounts of zealots/dts and come out on top with almost no losses. They are ranged units with long range vs slow melee units. You think that by having DTs on the map protoss can't attack you and stop you from expanding? That's complete bs. The second protoss sees that you have dt, he can send his obs/goons to your base, and contain you or even break your ramp. He doesn't have to stay back because while he is moving out he has a second obs and more dragoons building that will be ready to fend off any dt counter. Even if you manage to expand you have to do that with lots of cannons (to counter dragoons), allowing your opponent to double expand. Finally reaver play will own you even worse. Reavers completely rock dts/zealots and he can harrass your mineral line and you have no way of stopping him since you don't have dragoons. He will drop his reaver, kill your probes and run load his reaver back into the shuttle before your dt/zealots can get more then a hit or 2 off. Maybe having those hallucinations would be nice but that would come in the mid-game, where you would already be behind. And storm is more powerful anyways. This build is not going to be viable, but it can be fun. Almost everyone before me posted valid reasons why this build isn't viable and why your logic is flawed. Stop being so stubborn, and see that this is an only-for-fun build. | ||
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druj
137 Posts
Hallucination might be useful in the rare late game scenario when your resources are low and you guys are ending up forcing to feedback/mc each other's units. Might be good to force your opponent to waste spells on doppelgangers. | ||
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hyst.eric.al
United States2332 Posts
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Gnarly
United States151 Posts
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MuffinDude
United States3837 Posts
And you usually can only get map control with dt if they go cannon and temp. If they go observer reaver, then dt won't give you map control. And don't say that hallucination will work because they don't have storm. You just spent like 125 min 100 gas per dt, and you probably need like 2~4 if are aiming for map control. So doing the math, you just spend 250~500 min and 200~400 gas on dts. Then you have to research hallucination, which is 150 min 150 gas. And to get just 6 hallucinated units(half a control group), you need 3 high templars, which requires 150 min 450 gas. So in total, you spent around 550~800 min and 800~1000 gas getting to this point. First of all, where are you even going to get that much gas so quickly? And second, before you get that ready, your opponent will already be pushing his way to your natural and have at least one shuttle/reaver and observer. Without storms or your own reaver, you'll probably lose the battle and the game soon after because dts are mainly for harassment and you have smaller army because you took time getting dts and ht. It just won't work. Fun? probably. Will it win you games? no. | ||
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Gnarly
United States151 Posts
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MuffinDude
United States3837 Posts
Robo -> obs -> citadel -> archives -> ht Robo -> obs -> bay -> reaver Robo -> obs -> citadel -> archives -> dt Citadle -> Archives -> dt The first two build will negate your dt and map control very easily and give the map control to your opponent because he'll have a bigger army since you can't really count dts because dt are usually only used for harassing. The third build is a direct counter to fast dt, as shown by jangbi in jangbi v movie at proleague 08-09 playoffs. Movie went fast dt and Jangbi managed to get obs out. Jangbi got his own dts and shuttle them to movie's base to destory movie's main before movie got detection. The last build, well, then you'll have to see who played safe and who has the better dt micro. Any of these builds will easily counter a fast hallucination. Reavers shit on hallucinated units and with proper micro, it will easily let the owner of the reaver win the battle. And you should already know by now that hallucination won't work on storms. My main point is, by the time you have hallucination, your opponent will get storms, and your hallucinations will be useless. Also, cannons won't put you behind. The time you spent to get to dt is so long that by the time you get dts, you'll army will be significantly smaller than you're opponent's since he'll probably have more gateways to work with or if its about the same, you'll be at least a reaver down. If you watched anytime v herb today, then you'll notice that while herb had about 2 zealot and 6 goons and 3 more goons just popping out while anytime only had 4 goons and a dt. If herb just put down one cannon, then he'll have only two less goon (150 min more for forge), 2 zealot 6 goons and 1 goon just popping out, thats still bigger than anytime's army. And he already had a robo and was really close of making a observer. Once the observer comes out, anytime would of lost map control and herb could of easily put a contain on anytime. This proves to show that putting cannons won't put you behind a person who goes fast dt. You have to understand that there will be practically no situation where hallucination will be better than storms because by the time you can get a good amount of hallucinated units, your opponent will have the storms ready to get rid of your hallucinations. | ||
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onewingedmoogle
Canada434 Posts
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Gnarly
United States151 Posts
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MuffinDude
United States3837 Posts
On October 19 2009 01:20 Gnarly wrote: So one should never ask questions? My god, you are ignorant. I am losing my interest with this certain mid-game plan, but luckily, it's because I'm onto something knew. I'm trying to figure out some timings to see if it's viable at all, then we can start talking about it. Good, do some research before making up random strategies, because this strategy is viable only if the timing didn't suck so much. | ||
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wassbix
Canada499 Posts
On October 19 2009 01:41 MuffinDude wrote: Good, do some research before making up random strategies, because this strategy is viable only if the timing didn't suck so much. You're talking to a tactical genius here, watch your tone. Also, lol hallucination. Only edge you'll ever get over a standard build is your opponent laughing too hard and forgetting to micro his own units. | ||
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Smokin_Squirrel
Korea (South)674 Posts
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Tooplark
United States3977 Posts
On October 16 2009 14:08 cUrsOr wrote: You mention lack of confidence as a weakness you exploit... you dont think that over confidince is the same sort of weakness? Faith in one's friends is too. | ||
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