EPT[I] PvP Full game build
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Gnarly
United States151 Posts
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0neheart
United States92 Posts
edit: basically what i mean is that you can (and usually do) get owned before all your fancy tech kicks in | ||
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genericname92
United States148 Posts
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indecision
Germany818 Posts
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Sentient66
United States651 Posts
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da_head
Canada3350 Posts
On October 16 2009 13:12 genericname92 wrote: If I remember correctly, storms cancel out hallucinations, and since pretty much every toss will get storm at some point, hallucination wouldn't be that useful. what he said. | ||
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Count9
China10928 Posts
If a good player is going reavers, I could easily snipe the shuttle before I engage his army if he dances it against the fake army. If he opted for HT play, I could easily snipe them with goons from behind, since that's where they will be. If against DT, this is dependent on which opening I choose to use, so I left that alone for now. No you can't, you will be dead. Oh, and: So why not DT FE the 'F' in FE stands for 'Fast' btw. | ||
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da_head
Canada3350 Posts
On October 16 2009 13:32 Count9 wrote: No you can't, you will be dead. Oh, and: the 'F' in FE stands for 'Fast' btw. i think that he means to fe THEN dt or dt then expand? either way fails. lul | ||
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Sentient66
United States651 Posts
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Duke
United States1106 Posts
in my experience after going DT->expand, you need to use your gates on units and not HTs unless you can spare a couple cannons, especially if he has made obs in a timely fashion, so the halluc is going to come really late(giving him economic edge if he's good) unless you manage to expand before you make dts(which would make you vulnerable to all-in &/or reavers) anyway post some replays before i keep writing for no reason D: yes, any spell (storm, ensnare, stasis, plague, etc) all insta-kill hallucinations. | ||
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Gnarly
United States151 Posts
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CursOr
United States6335 Posts
On October 16 2009 13:04 Gnarly wrote: If a good player is going reavers, I could easily snipe the shuttle before I engage his army if he dances it against the fake army. If he opted for HT play, I could easily snipe them with goons from behind, since that's where they will be. If against DT, this is dependent on which opening I choose to use, so I left that alone for now. This part struck me as... well its been quoted a number of times... You mention lack of confidence as a weakness you exploit... you dont think that over confidince is the same sort of weakness? I wish you luck with your hallucinations though. | ||
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Sentient66
United States651 Posts
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
The only legitimate use of this would be to attempt to use dark archons in pvp like mutas are used in pvz, just to continually snipe HT and try and destroy their templar-less army. Maelstrom on zealots really doesn't last long enough, they have too much health for it to be useful for anything but a scarab and they don't stack so at most you would only get 9 zeals. | ||
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Gnarly
United States151 Posts
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
I love to experiment in broodwar, but I also understand that my strange builds are not as good as the standard ones. They are only for fun. So sure try going hallicinations, but realize its never going to be as good as just sticking with storm. May I suggest hallcinating shuttles though. You only need to use one templar for that. Then you can do some fake harassment while your real army moves out. Like I said..its not effective, but it is fun. BTW. Your build sounds like it's planned by a true D- level player. Dt fe can work but only as a transition with cannons into a strong 2 base macro play with a very late robotics. | ||
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siv00
261 Posts
GL tho~ | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
On October 16 2009 14:23 Gnarly wrote: They have to hit the right units. I did not think that HTs carry a direct counter to one of its own spells. That just seems stupid. But even then, they have to hit the right units, and how are they going to know when they need to be doing so much other stuff? It would be stupid to go through your units and the possibly fake units combined with real units to see which ones do not deal damage, then storm it, which may just result in one dispel versus storming real units to get real kills. This is one of the reason why hallucination sucks. Just go test it in singleplayer. Here, I just did : http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=22528 It insta dies to maelstrom as well. | ||
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
sometimes it happens like jangbi's dark archon but this won't happen, hallucination sucks. | ||
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Gnarly
United States151 Posts
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
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genericname92
United States148 Posts
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
On October 16 2009 14:54 Gnarly wrote: You are retarded. You must be. Am I wasting templar energy? I could be killing units, but could completely fuck up the storms. I may not even get to. With hallucination, I don't need to bring in the HTs as they will have done their job for now. I know for a fact that I get to use the spell as they won't see any battle. It can also greatly increase the size of your army and could COMPLETELY negate an attack, over having to attack and possibly losing. The goal of hallucination is not to win, but allow me to make the other player make more decisions, and to allow me to fully use the race which is more fun, over needing to win every single game. Also, if you read in what I wrote, I talk of cannons, needing them, and how I will be adding gates in my transition to ALLOW for a late robo. You just completely said what I said. Get out. And to Nevuk: I think better players would be able to effectively aggressively and defensively hallucination. Inexperienced players would probably try to storm the hallucinations units, probably checking first, wasting valuable micro time, ignoring the fact that his reinforcement/ retreat path has been cut off, not transferring probes and forgetting pylons and tech and whatnot. Why does this suck? Even if a player knew what to do, it's still not something that's easy because you can't detect it. You can only see what you actually see, and you can easily see HT, where they are going to storm, and able to dance before the storm. It's not worth effort. Really. The first time they see the blue smoke they will realize why your army seems so much larger, and it is really hard to keep your hallucinations separate in the army formation unless you charge in blindly with them a la Bisu v Iris game 5, where it made sense to clear mines. Also, it isn't like there is any consideration at all about storming - you see enemy units, you storm the clumps/spots that will do the most damage. So if they storm your army and there are 16 hallucinated zealots, say 9 of them touch the storm and die. Having 6 meatshields that take something like triple damage isn't worth the 800 energy it takes for it. The reason hallucinate is terrible is because storm is so much better for less energy - you could get 10 storms instead of the hallucinated army. Your specific idea is to draw them out with a hallucinated army. That's fine, but how early are we talking? 3 base, right? By this point most P are going to be able to do the damage required to kill a single hallucination with pure goon fire, as they take double damage (i believe) and ignore size definitely. Using a few zealots or actually like 2 or 3 dark templars works considerably better for this purpose, as to kill either you do have to move your army out of position. The idea about the dark archon does have merit, though it may be too micro intensive to be justifiable, especially since it takes 50 energy and you can't sweep in and kill more than 4 templars at a time. | ||
]343[
United States10328 Posts
@OP: try. it. out. such theorycrafting is nice and all, but pretty much completely impractical. (also try it out against a solid D not a D-) | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
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da_head
Canada3350 Posts
pst, 100>75 energy btw  o and i'll also be happy to face you.  | ||
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Gnarly
United States151 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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frogmelter
United States971 Posts
Yes, all spells dispels them I don't understand why people are being so mean Yes, I too don't think this idea will work, but you guys are being a bit harsh I don't think it will work because you are delaying storm for halluciation... that could be crippling in a fight Not to mention... observers... They can scout the halluciations happening... It's lights out if that happens TBH I just don't think you can take the economic and military hit by doing this... They will just run you over IMHO | ||
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Red Alert
United States119 Posts
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frogmelter
United States971 Posts
http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Hallucination They do take double damage Sorry for any confusion I might have caused | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On October 16 2009 15:38 Gnarly wrote: If they see blue smoke, they know there's hallucinated units in there, yes. But they don't know which ones. They can find out by killing them, and that's what I want. Them not killing the real units so that my real units can kill them. This also makes it easier to focus fires since concentrating on the shots of my goons with that many and then moving the right units would take too much and screw him over in the long run, as opposed to just falling back, or being a boss. Not everyone gets to be a boss, though. He doesn't need to know which ones are fake. If he storms your hallucinations, he just traded a 100 energy spell for a 75 energy spell, his advantage. If he storms your real units--well, I shouldn't need to tell you why that's bad for you. On October 16 2009 15:38 Gnarly wrote: I would also not allow for my units to be clumped. That's just asking for a storm. So the effectiveness of his storms would be reduced. That's the thing. Having a bunch of hallucinations around makes it hard for you to just say "I would also not allow for my units to be clumped. You have to keep your hallucinations distinguishable from your real units, while at the same time keeping them unclumped and dispersed? It's implying that you have free reign to make the choice of where and when to engage, when, in practice, that's not always the case. Not to mention how much of a control nightmare that is. Keeping your dragoons unclumped, while having your fake dragoons dispersed among your real ones AND being able to focus-fire without either your dragoons separating into real and fake, and without them being clumped takes far more control than just aiming storms--if you have to do that much more work to make hallucinations better than storm, you may as well storm, and then go macro or micro your dragoons. | ||
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flothefreak
Germany77 Posts
plus, hallus take double damage of everything | ||
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ceaRshaf
Romania4926 Posts
What about a "probe-recall-rush-into-FE" strategy?Probes are never used in attack and i thought it would be cool to give them some action I have a build that might work to do it, but haven't tested it yet. Let's talk for ages if it could be done. Or maybe i ll just play a couple of games and try it and see for myself what a daydreamer i am. Not trying to be offensive but realistical. | ||
Liquid`Zephyr
United States996 Posts
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Gnarly
United States151 Posts
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rredtooth
5459 Posts
On October 16 2009 13:04 Gnarly wrote: lawlsI consider myself quite the tactician, I like to play chess quite a bit. | ||
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Knickknack
United States1187 Posts
zcorezgoon citadel+forge archive+cannon at nat 5:00 you have 3g/2z/1cannon. expo, and more cannons if necessary 4hts total then goons with range and speedlots robo and hallucinate move out when hts have 200energy ~10min. 4htx4 = 16halluninated goons. morph archons. attack! then have fun beating people that are worse than you anyway. :D Its not a terrible build if they play right into your hands, ie they just macro up as well and are not as good as you at it. | ||
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SiegeTanksandBlueGoo
China685 Posts
On October 16 2009 14:54 Gnarly wrote: You are retarded. You must be. Am I wasting templar energy? I could be killing units, but could completely fuck up the storms. I may not even get to. With hallucination, I don't need to bring in the HTs as they will have done their job for now. I know for a fact that I get to use the spell as they won't see any battle. It can also greatly increase the size of your army and could COMPLETELY negate an attack, over having to attack and possibly losing. The goal of hallucination is not to win, but allow me to make the other player make more decisions, and to allow me to fully use the race which is more fun, over needing to win every single game. Also, if you read in what I wrote, I talk of cannons, needing them, and how I will be adding gates in my transition to ALLOW for a late robo. You just completely said what I said. Get out. And to Nevuk: I think better players would be able to effectively aggressively and defensively hallucination. Inexperienced players would probably try to storm the hallucinations units, probably checking first, wasting valuable micro time, ignoring the fact that his reinforcement/ retreat path has been cut off, not transferring probes and forgetting pylons and tech and whatnot. Why does this suck? Even if a player knew what to do, it's still not something that's easy because you can't detect it. You can only see what you actually see, and you can easily see HT, where they are going to storm, and able to dance before the storm.  Seriously though, spells cancel out hallucination. Stop daydreaming. | ||
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SiegeTanksandBlueGoo
China685 Posts
On October 17 2009 02:28 Gnarly wrote: What if my opponent does not scout that I am going hallucination? He scouts that I go DT opening, that doesn't even matter because soon enough he will know. Then I could be going for storm, a reaver switch, or archons, or something else. If he goes obs and storm, that's a long time before you attack, after being hit by a DT opening as well. The point of the DTs are to delay his mid-game transition, so that I can do mine easier. What if he went reavers instead of storm? I don't have storms to worry about, but I have a late reaver push to deal with. Since I know it's coming, from spotter pylons and proper scouting, I can set up my defense to make it not worth attacking me, or to even harass me. If he went 4gate goon or something, well, that's self defeat. If he doesn't feel safe to attack, as DT can contest for map control versus one observer. Just the thought of the DTs sneaking in after he pushes out could cause him to focus on them, wasting time to attack me. But if he just goes straight for me, without proper defense, he is screwed. As for the micro involved with clump avoiding, all you have to do with move your real units with the fake ones a few times in different directions. The amount of clicks could be a simple six clicks, just to get them together. Then to focus fire, I would probably have 8 goons per group, since it takes, I believe, sixteen shots without +1 to kill a goon, and with what seems like a goon heavy army, I could snipe a few goons and he could snipe a few fake ones. I've played a lot of UMS, and my micro is pretty precise, as long as I know how to do it. You guys keep saying how there WILL be storms that WILL be doing MASSIVE damage NO MATTER WHAT, and that he WILL scout and WILL know exactly what to do. Quit with your ancient thinking, and talk from real experience, as I'm confident none of you have any experience with legit hallu-play. So what if he storms my fake units, what if he only gets one, which is the cost of 50 energy, compared to 75 energy? What if he gets three goons, which is 375 minerals and 150 gas. And the chance that he will have HTs ready to storm after being hit by a DT opening in time for to destroy me is unlikely, in my opinion. As for replays, I am going to be doing a lot of games today, and I will get a few replays in here. But the reason I started the thread before any actual play, was to get a BETTER idea of what ordering my mid-game could be in. To see if anyone knew what they were talking about. To Zephyr: It could be more viable to go with a fake zealot army instead of goons, just simply due to the gas issue. And the fake archons could provide some nice fodder, and could make an inexperienced player draw his reavers back, which would make his attack mush less effective. That's nice. To ceaRshaf: Who made you boss? Even a couple of games would still do no justice, it would take a lot of thinking, and a lot of playing in order to truly see if it's viable. Be realistic. Let's play chess then, any time controls, anywhere. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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OneOther
United States10774 Posts
thumbs up | ||
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noobienoob
United States1173 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Make a Scout and hallucinate it ftw! | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On October 17 2009 03:14 redtooth wrote: lawls Must bring this to the third page. | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
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noobienoob
United States1173 Posts
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m3rciless
United States1476 Posts
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MiniRoman
Canada3953 Posts
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Jonoman92
United States9103 Posts
Also, stating you could simply snipe their shuttle if they go reavers is just ridiculous. | ||
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Count9
China10928 Posts
On October 17 2009 04:21 m3rciless wrote: man you guys got trolled good. First reply gave it away =( | ||
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fanatacist
10319 Posts
On October 16 2009 13:15 indecision wrote: the way you write makes me think you should stop daydreaming about starcraft in middle school QFT | ||
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ultramagnetics
Poland215 Posts
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shurgen
350 Posts
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
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Tsagacity
United States2124 Posts
Like playing with LAN buddies who talk about their "unbeatable" strat of mass cannons and then mind controlling an SCV and a Drone in order to build a 600 supply army!I'm just disappointed I probably won't get to see the conclusion  On October 17 2009 07:16 fanatacist wrote: Right on. This is exactly what I did back in middle school the way you write makes me think you should stop daydreaming about starcraft in middle school | ||
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0neheart
United States92 Posts
On October 17 2009 11:12 Tsagacity wrote: Threads like these make me sooooo nostalgic Like playing with LAN buddies who talk about their "unbeatable" strat of mass cannons and then mind controlling an SCV and a Drone in order to build a 600 supply army!I'm just disappointed I probably won't get to see the conclusion don't forget scout harass | ||
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saltywet
Hong Kong1316 Posts
dodging storms is not as easy as you make it sound, especially if you're a player who has idle templars around generating energy. and storming more than 3 units is not as hard as you make it sound either, especially with a large armies engaging. the fact that you are using hallucinations which take 2x damage is useless, as enemies will have dragoons in an arc when you try to attack, and even if you have the bigger arc and your hallucinations tank some hits, essentially you have a less damage density. do the math assuming equal numbers, and all hallucinations take hits first, 8 blue dragoons facing 4 red hallucinated dragoons and red 4 dragoons, hallucinated dragoons die in 5 hits each, so in 2.5 rounds all hallucinations die, during which 4 red dragoons will have killed 1 dragoon max, leaving 7 blue dragoons left. one practical/joke strategy i can think of with this is to use a fake army to engage your opponent while using your main army to snipe off their main base and expos | ||
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ocho
United States172 Posts
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JohannesH
Finland1364 Posts
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
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da_head
Canada3350 Posts
On October 17 2009 14:45 jalstar wrote: hallucinated dark archons are the key to winning pvz i lol'd | ||
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jtype
England2167 Posts
To me personally, the best use for hallucinations are not really for messing with your opponent's head (although that can be effective), but more for using the game's AI to your advantage, ie. hallucinating a bunch of shuttles so that your real one doesn't get targeted first and taken out by static defenses. Making your opponent waste storms on hallucinated units, on the surface, seems like it would be a win/win. It's not as good as it seems though, as not only will you be less likely to have any storms now either, but also, the time you spent on hallucinating your units, could have been spent macro-ing up more actual units and/or getting better army positioning (which, as we all know, is a massive part of PvP). Correct me if I'm misunderstanding your idea here, but I can see two main situations coming from this: 1) You hallucinate a large portion of your army and send them into the battle first, so as to keep your real army safe and make your opponent waste a few spells and mess with his head a bit. Pros: -He's just wasted a few storms and for a split-second he's a little bit confused as to why your units are disappearing so quickly. Cons: - He quickly recovers from this and realizes that, the resources (minerals,gas,time,APM) you spent on that trick, he spent on macro and army positioning. - You now have to move the rest of your army (your real army) into position now, most likely costing you the battle. Or, you could retreat and save your army, but then this whole thing would be a waste of time anyway. - You now have less, if any, HT energy. - He now get's the psychological advantage; knowing that a mind-game that you so clearly committed to, has failed. 2) You hallucinate a large portion of your army and mix them in with your real units, increasing the apparent size of your army. Pros: - His units are now taking some real damage from some of yours and he thinks that there's more units than there actually are. - When he storms the front of your army, it doesn't completely disappear in the blink of an eye. Cons: - His storms are damaging some of your real units anyway. - Once your hallucinated units disappear, you're left with a smaller bunch of units; out of position and already taking damage. - He quickly recovers from this and realizes that, the resources (minerals,gas,time,APM) you spent on that trick, he spent on macro and army positioning. - You now have to move the rest of your army (your real army) into position now, most likely costing you the battle. Or, you could retreat and save your army, but then this whole thing would be a waste of time anyway. - You now have less, if any, HT energy. - He now get's the psychological advantage; knowing that a mind-game that you so clearly committed to, has failed. So, really, is it worth the spending of so many resources on something that only gives you a split-second advantage, before see-sawing back into a massive disadvantage for yourself? | ||
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fanatacist
10319 Posts
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ultramagnetics
Poland215 Posts
->Hallucinating zealots to drag mines in pvt is obviously useful, hallucinating arbies/shuttles also. ->In pvz hallucinated archons are extremely useful. Also, if you need to make an archon, and have templars with extra energy, use up your hallucinate and then make archon. ->Pvp, what if your have templars out with energy but storm isn't done researching. If its a tight situation (opponent pressuring you, or opponent taking another base), you can use your hallucinate right away, rather then waiting for storm. | ||
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Gnarly
United States151 Posts
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MuffinDude
United States3837 Posts
And dark archon is just a waste. Your da must be in position just in case the arbiter goes stasis or recall, but then you just wasted your feedback on arbiter and he'll just storm you to death. And most people get early detection, so going for fast dt will usually be deflected. I can easily get obs out or get 1 cannon on each base to just counter the dt. You say that your opponent wasted 150~300 min on cannon? Well congratz, you just wasted time and resources getting dt when you barely did any damage with it. Your strategies may work in D-, but once you get to higher level, it'll fail. And hallucination suck, just watch rock v chalrenge that went into tie. Rock tries to break into chalrenge's fortified base with hallucination/arbiter, but chalrenge just stormed the hallucination and easily killed the arbiter whenever rock tried it. And who cares if I don't know which one. Lets say you use hallucinate 6 times to get a control group of army. You just spent 600 energy when I could of spend 8 storms. With just 3 storms, I can take out your hallucinated army while doing damage to your real army and 5 more storms to dish out extra damage. While I kick your ass with storm, you have no storm to damage my units. You'll lose easily. Hallucination is in there because it can be useful sometimes, but just because blizzard added the skill doesn't mean you have to use it. They also didn't add the skill because they think that its awesome and balance the game out. Its just another option that the protoss player could use, but not all options are good options. Mind control takes too much energy and time. If you don't spend it on reavers or something, your opponent will just come in and roll over you while you tech to mc because you don't have the reavers to fight back. | ||
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da_head
Canada3350 Posts
On October 18 2009 03:11 ultramagnetics wrote: ->Pvp, what if your have templars out with energy but storm isn't done researching. If its a tight situation (opponent pressuring you, or opponent taking another base), you can use your hallucinate right away, rather then waiting for storm. why the hell would u upgrade hallucination b4 storm? o.O | ||
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ultramagnetics
Poland215 Posts
Anyways, to gnarly: If you want to have fun with this strategy that's awesome- starcraft is about having fun. But it's a very weak strategy that will very rarely win against the same level opponent. Quoting Gnarly: "To counter DT, you can either go DT, or play safe. What is noted about playing safe is that it doesn't give you any advantage. Getting early obs does deflect a DT rush, yes. But if you can't rush into his base, why not just chill out with those DTs for a second? If I opt to rush, and have to pull back, I still have those DTs and I still have the threat of walking in once he moves out, if he doesn't have enough detection. But going early obs means later storm, and most likely reaver play. My hallucinations don't need to worry about storm, they will be facing reavers." You are assuming that a DT gives you automatic map control and allow you to get an early advantage. That is completely wrong- and unless you kill some probes, dts put you way behind in the game. Also, dt play is very easy to detect, any protoss can keep the probe in your base until the first goon- meaning that he will see a lack of upgrade, lack of 2 gates, and your citadel will be delayed. Even if you get rid of the probe, protoss can get suspicious of you going dts by seeing the weak unit count/composition on your ramp. That will prompt any decent protoss to get earlier obs and own you. Anyways, most protoss go 2 or 3 gate goons with robo facility and obs or reaver. Both of these strategies own any sort of DT play (a strong speedlot/archon build after DTs can be hard to deal with though.. but you're not doing that). Why does standard dragoon or reaver play own DTs? Cause goons can out micro similar amounts of zealots/dts and come out on top with almost no losses. They are ranged units with long range vs slow melee units. You think that by having DTs on the map protoss can't attack you and stop you from expanding? That's complete bs. The second protoss sees that you have dt, he can send his obs/goons to your base, and contain you or even break your ramp. He doesn't have to stay back because while he is moving out he has a second obs and more dragoons building that will be ready to fend off any dt counter. Even if you manage to expand you have to do that with lots of cannons (to counter dragoons), allowing your opponent to double expand. Finally reaver play will own you even worse. Reavers completely rock dts/zealots and he can harrass your mineral line and you have no way of stopping him since you don't have dragoons. He will drop his reaver, kill your probes and run load his reaver back into the shuttle before your dt/zealots can get more then a hit or 2 off. Maybe having those hallucinations would be nice but that would come in the mid-game, where you would already be behind. And storm is more powerful anyways. This build is not going to be viable, but it can be fun. Almost everyone before me posted valid reasons why this build isn't viable and why your logic is flawed. Stop being so stubborn, and see that this is an only-for-fun build. | ||
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druj
137 Posts
Hallucination might be useful in the rare late game scenario when your resources are low and you guys are ending up forcing to feedback/mc each other's units. Might be good to force your opponent to waste spells on doppelgangers. | ||
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hyst.eric.al
United States2332 Posts
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Gnarly
United States151 Posts
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MuffinDude
United States3837 Posts
And you usually can only get map control with dt if they go cannon and temp. If they go observer reaver, then dt won't give you map control. And don't say that hallucination will work because they don't have storm. You just spent like 125 min 100 gas per dt, and you probably need like 2~4 if are aiming for map control. So doing the math, you just spend 250~500 min and 200~400 gas on dts. Then you have to research hallucination, which is 150 min 150 gas. And to get just 6 hallucinated units(half a control group), you need 3 high templars, which requires 150 min 450 gas. So in total, you spent around 550~800 min and 800~1000 gas getting to this point. First of all, where are you even going to get that much gas so quickly? And second, before you get that ready, your opponent will already be pushing his way to your natural and have at least one shuttle/reaver and observer. Without storms or your own reaver, you'll probably lose the battle and the game soon after because dts are mainly for harassment and you have smaller army because you took time getting dts and ht. It just won't work. Fun? probably. Will it win you games? no. | ||
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Gnarly
United States151 Posts
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MuffinDude
United States3837 Posts
Robo -> obs -> citadel -> archives -> ht Robo -> obs -> bay -> reaver Robo -> obs -> citadel -> archives -> dt Citadle -> Archives -> dt The first two build will negate your dt and map control very easily and give the map control to your opponent because he'll have a bigger army since you can't really count dts because dt are usually only used for harassing. The third build is a direct counter to fast dt, as shown by jangbi in jangbi v movie at proleague 08-09 playoffs. Movie went fast dt and Jangbi managed to get obs out. Jangbi got his own dts and shuttle them to movie's base to destory movie's main before movie got detection. The last build, well, then you'll have to see who played safe and who has the better dt micro. Any of these builds will easily counter a fast hallucination. Reavers shit on hallucinated units and with proper micro, it will easily let the owner of the reaver win the battle. And you should already know by now that hallucination won't work on storms. My main point is, by the time you have hallucination, your opponent will get storms, and your hallucinations will be useless. Also, cannons won't put you behind. The time you spent to get to dt is so long that by the time you get dts, you'll army will be significantly smaller than you're opponent's since he'll probably have more gateways to work with or if its about the same, you'll be at least a reaver down. If you watched anytime v herb today, then you'll notice that while herb had about 2 zealot and 6 goons and 3 more goons just popping out while anytime only had 4 goons and a dt. If herb just put down one cannon, then he'll have only two less goon (150 min more for forge), 2 zealot 6 goons and 1 goon just popping out, thats still bigger than anytime's army. And he already had a robo and was really close of making a observer. Once the observer comes out, anytime would of lost map control and herb could of easily put a contain on anytime. This proves to show that putting cannons won't put you behind a person who goes fast dt. You have to understand that there will be practically no situation where hallucination will be better than storms because by the time you can get a good amount of hallucinated units, your opponent will have the storms ready to get rid of your hallucinations. | ||
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onewingedmoogle
Canada434 Posts
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Gnarly
United States151 Posts
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MuffinDude
United States3837 Posts
On October 19 2009 01:20 Gnarly wrote: So one should never ask questions? My god, you are ignorant. I am losing my interest with this certain mid-game plan, but luckily, it's because I'm onto something knew. I'm trying to figure out some timings to see if it's viable at all, then we can start talking about it. Good, do some research before making up random strategies, because this strategy is viable only if the timing didn't suck so much. | ||
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wassbix
Canada499 Posts
On October 19 2009 01:41 MuffinDude wrote: Good, do some research before making up random strategies, because this strategy is viable only if the timing didn't suck so much. You're talking to a tactical genius here, watch your tone. Also, lol hallucination. Only edge you'll ever get over a standard build is your opponent laughing too hard and forgetting to micro his own units. | ||
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Smokin_Squirrel
Korea (South)674 Posts
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Tooplark
United States3977 Posts
On October 16 2009 14:08 cUrsOr wrote: You mention lack of confidence as a weakness you exploit... you dont think that over confidince is the same sort of weakness? Faith in one's friends is too. | ||
Manifesto7
Osaka27149 Posts
You are retarded. You must be. Don't be a dick. | ||
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