EPTOn October 03 2009 02:46 StarChief wrote:
lets check... ... ....
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nope still here xD
lets check... ... ....
... .
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nope still here xD
Get the fuck out.
[H] ZvP Dealing with 2 Gate BO correctly - Page 2
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Chill
Calgary26004 Posts
Get the fuck out. | ||
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Chill
Calgary26004 Posts
You did the 9 pool build wrong. 9 pool is a terrible counter to 2 gate. You called 9 pool 12 hatch despite there being many resources showing you it is not. You didn't read the strategy forum guidelines or the teamliquid guidelines. You are wrong, but above that, you are a confident wrong - that is you spew wrong information in an abraisive, degrading manner. If you make another account, learn from this and have some humility when you are talking to the members of this forum. | ||
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basSically
5 Posts
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Chill
Calgary26004 Posts
If you survive the initial 2 gate, you are quite ahead, even if Protoss decides to expand. The economy boost from expanding after 2 gate takes quite awhile to kick in. I know it feels like you waste a lot of money on static defense and he is getting a free expansion out of it, but try to consciously think that it's not like that. You need to fight the lessons that playing 3 base vs Protoss FE has taught you. What you should do is use 12 speedlings to keep him in his base. You don't need enough defense to live a second zealot attack, you just need the speedlings to keep him guessing. No one is going to move out against 12 speedlings with slow zealots, because there could be 48 zerglings waiting, or a runby counter planned - there's no way for Protoss to know. While this is happening, you are simultaneously teching and making a lot of drones. The tech choice doesn't matter at this point, because he is completely in the dark, he has to defend against hydras, mutas and lurkers. Any one you choose is fine. Do not leave your base until you have this tech out. Once you have the tech out, take a third and fourth base with overlord detection, use your tech to keep him in his main, and begin to power ASAP. The transition point a lot of people miss, is switching from tech to power. They see the lurkers / mutas keeping protoss in his main for so long that they make a ton of drones and have a small army. Protoss then gets enough of the necessary unit (archons / templar / observers) to break out with a very large army and rolls over Zerg. So you need to prepare for this moment ahead of time. Protoss will feel like he's been in his main for 5 minutes and will start to get a little frantic, so when he gets out he will definitely be attacking. If you can survive this attack you will be quite a bit ahead, with Protoss still unable to scout and unable to take a third base. At this moment you can split larva between drones and units, switching over to pure units as you feel Protoss is going to try one more attack. Hive should have kicked in at this point and you should feel fairly comfortable. Sorry I can't tailor my advice to the specific game at hand. I'll try to watch it when I get home. | ||
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Espers
United Kingdom606 Posts
Should I be countering his main? Or at least feigning to counter? And generally on 4 p maps (happened on Luna) I won't scout in time and his Zealots will be at my nat before I can try to counter and I have to fight to protect my natural.. should I just let my hatch take damage as my lings build or just try to outmicro? | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On October 03 2009 04:19 FabledIntegral wrote: Out of curiosity, if I KNOW ahead of time my opponent is going to 2gate, I've been doing 11hatch 10 pool as opposed to 12 hatch 11 pool. If you know a 2gate is coming, would that be better? You are able to get a sunken and lings that much quicker (the 6 lings come fast enough that his 1 zealot will retreat because his reinforcements are too far behind). Worth it..? I typically do this build vs the D ranks just in case of a 2gate rush, as I can typically overcome the slight economy setback. If you KNOW that the opponent is going to go 2gate for some reason, then you could go 9hatch 9pool, as it is safer against 2gate compared to 12hatch. | ||
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Chill
Calgary26004 Posts
If you 9 pooled against 2 gate, you need to continuously build zerglings and then hatch. When he moves out, you need to check his ramp. If it's open, I would sacrifice my natural to try to kill probes / pylons. If he's blocked it, leave your lings to cut reinforcements while you continue to build lings rallied away from his army. Then, at the last moment, unite the armies and attack. Try to leave your hatchery with ~200-300 HP if possible. Obviously err on the side of too much rather than having a dead hatchery. | ||
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ProoM
Lithuania1741 Posts
On October 03 2009 03:23 Chill wrote: To the OP, I can offer this, although I didn't watch the reply (at work): If you survive the initial 2 gate, you are quite ahead, even if Protoss decides to expand. The economy boost from expanding after 2 gate takes quite awhile to kick in. I know it feels like you waste a lot of money on static defense and he is getting a free expansion out of it, but try to consciously think that it's not like that. You need to fight the lessons that playing 3 base vs Protoss FE has taught you. What you should do is use 12 speedlings to keep him in his base. You don't need enough defense to live a second zealot attack, you just need the speedlings to keep him guessing. No one is going to move out against 12 speedlings with slow zealots, because there could be 48 zerglings waiting, or a runby counter planned - there's no way for Protoss to know. While this is happening, you are simultaneously teching and making a lot of drones. The tech choice doesn't matter at this point, because he is completely in the dark, he has to defend against hydras, mutas and lurkers. Any one you choose is fine. Do not leave your base until you have this tech out. Once you have the tech out, take a third and fourth base with overlord detection, use your tech to keep him in his main, and begin to power ASAP. The transition point a lot of people miss, is switching from tech to power. They see the lurkers / mutas keeping protoss in his main for so long that they make a ton of drones and have a small army. Protoss then gets enough of the necessary unit (archons / templar / observers) to break out with a very large army and rolls over Zerg. So you need to prepare for this moment ahead of time. Protoss will feel like he's been in his main for 5 minutes and will start to get a little frantic, so when he gets out he will definitely be attacking. If you can survive this attack you will be quite a bit ahead, with Protoss still unable to scout and unable to take a third base. At this moment you can split larva between drones and units, switching over to pure units as you feel Protoss is going to try one more attack. Hive should have kicked in at this point and you should feel fairly comfortable. Sorry I can't tailor my advice to the specific game at hand. I'll try to watch it when I get home. Nice post, but I have few questions: Do you suggest getting ling speed before the lair? what if P tries to take 3rd (for example island expo, or small choke expo by putting a lot of cannons there)? Also, if you see 9/9 gates with 1 zealot and 4 probes coming in, should drones be used to defend? Thanks! (anyone can answer!). (Ok, except StarChief, but he's banned anyways  ). Also what if P does move out with his first ~12-15 zealots, relying on his cannons and wall-in? Thanks! | ||
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Chill
Calgary26004 Posts
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saltywet
Hong Kong1316 Posts
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On October 03 2009 08:01 saltywet wrote: what happens if you get proxy 2 gated as a zerg who goes 12 hatch? if the protoss cuts probes he can even get 4 zealots in your base before your pool finishes. this happened to me, i scouted it with my 12th scouting drone, i reacted by canceling 12 hatch and making 12 pool and a sunk in main, then he contained me with zealots and cannons down my ramp on python, whilst expanding everywhere. It's a build order counter... kinda like bbs vs 12 hatch... you're pretty screwed honestly, you'll probably lose the nat hatch. HOpefully you scout before and can cancel. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On October 03 2009 05:50 ProoM wrote: Nice post, but I have few questions: Do you suggest getting ling speed before the lair? what if P tries to take 3rd (for example island expo, or small choke expo by putting a lot of cannons there)? Also, if you see 9/9 gates with 1 zealot and 4 probes coming in, should drones be used to defend? Thanks! (anyone can answer!). (Ok, except StarChief, but he's banned anyways ). Also what if P does move out with his first ~12-15 zealots, relying on his cannons and wall-in? Thanks!Well that's pretty far into the game if toss has shuttles, is going on a third, and can afford a ton of cannons. That's not really dealing with 2gate anymore is it? By the time he has 12-15 zealots and cannons/wall-in (which would have to be off one base) you should be sitting on 3 hatch with a few sunkens + sim city. Because if he has 12-15 zealots he'll have speed as well. Judge the timing yourself whether you should get mutas or hydras or just more lings (if for some reason he's lacking a spinning forge). | ||
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Another_Pro
United States66 Posts
by 3:30 you defended so far so good losing only 1 drone and killing a zealot and 3 probes. at 3:37 you have 8 zerglings engaging 2 zealots and they start to run away while 2 more zealots arrive. Your zerglings are in between them and in my opinion you should have ran back and forth between the reinforcing zealots and the 2 that ran away (keep them from grouping up because groups of zealots in a wall or clump kill lings faster than you think, but lone zealots die fast to zerglings). Your goal here would have been to either get a zealot kill or 2 or at least force him to run back to his ramp. Instead you ran your lings back to your sunks. You also have poor macro... I have 90 APM average and my macro is better than yours. Macro is IMPORTANT. Ideally like i said above you should have your lings in the middle of the map threatening a counter so he has to camp his ramp. If he doesnt react and instead is camping outside your nat at this point in the game then you should be ready to kill reinforcing zealots ( use reinforcing lings and 2 sunks you had to stop the 4 zealots he had) What is all that APM for? You arent harassing or doing any micro for most parts of the game yet you have so much idle larva... at 4:40-4:45 he attacks and fails miserably but then you follow his zealots away from your sunks and lose a ton of lings... poor judgement and poor micro, If you had better micro you might have came out ahead of that battle but if you dont have that good of micro then instead run around and to his reinforcing zealots like i mentioned earlier. ALWAYS REMEMBER.... + Show Spoiler + Zerg makes drones when they have map control. They make military when they do not. Dont make drones if he is massing zealots and you know hes massing zealots and camping outside your nat. Make drones when you killed a substantial amount of zealots and are ahead enough to defend completely for 2 or 3 production rounds of drones (a production round meaning using 1 larva at every hatchery) at 5:16 you have 14 zerglings and he has 7 zealots... this is a combination of poor macro and bad judgement to engage earlier in the game. The only think keeping you "alive" is the 3 sunkens and zerglings and buildings in the way. You are hanging on by a thread. at 5:30 You have 7 drones at your nat with 7 mineral patches and only 5 drones per 9 patches at your main... You have local map control at your nat that prevents his current army from killing you. You need to add drones to your main at this point. at 5:50, ahhh... not that its a bad idea to take your gas (which you need to tech at this point) but getting at least 9 drones mining minerals at your main should take priority over mining gas. you sent almost 1/2 of your zerglings out and they all die at his nat... tisk tisk... You already had overlords at both his main and nat so they accomplished nothing, not even scouting info. Your lair is not done and you have too few drones mining minerals but yet you have drones getting gas at both bases, you dont need THAT much gas yet. 6:44 you have 6 idle larva at your nat and 446 minerals... make something!! Dont forget your macro. @7:30 about 14 zealots attack you and you have 14 zerglings 3 sunkens... and... 7-8 drones morphing? lol? I dont know what to say i cant give you any more advice at this point. + Show Spoiler + You lost more lings than i could count, you lost a hydra den, you lost a few drones, and you werent mining for ages... Thats not what bare minimum defense means. You barely lived and came out drastically behind -_- All you need is better macro, and better judgement (like when you lost lings after he failed to attack and like when you suicide lings in a miserable attempt to slow his expo) Both of these come with practice and a conscious effort to improve. Try reading this too: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=66048 | ||
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Another_Pro
United States66 Posts
Edit: 23-24 minutes into the game the protoss mins out both his main and nat, has no income and only just enough minerals for a nexus and you just let him expand freely.... He had no units at all to defend with. Now he has an expo and units and starts to cannon it up. GG... Edit 2: LoL you let this happen twice and he even started to long distance mine. | ||
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