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darktreb
United States3017 Posts
On July 30 2009 16:44 Adeny wrote: This isn't the argument at all. The argument is that protoss is EASIER to play, not the better race. This. Also, how does progaming balance affect what is said about Protoss players at the D level?? | ||
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Magic84
Russian Federation1381 Posts
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Probe.
United States877 Posts
On July 30 2009 16:44 Adeny wrote: This isn't the argument at all. The argument is that protoss is EASIER to play, not the better race. If you could play the game in slow motion, at 5% speed and do everything perfectly, protoss would probably be the weakest race. No. The argument was that protoss was the "easy race" because all they had to do is 1a2a3a to win or make DT. People were complaining that if a protoss just macro and attack moves their army is way stronger, would always win battles, and thus is the "overpowered" race. Why the hell would people complain to losing to protoss simply because it's just easier to play as perfectly? | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On July 30 2009 16:54 CaptainPlatypus wrote: Agreed, and I thought I made that clear. Note that I don't even look at win rates. All this is talking about is what races are best suited to defeating the other rates, given this set of players and the set of maps that they're playing on (and all the other factors that happen to exist) And in that light, it's an interesting set of data  | ||
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CaptainPlatypus
United States852 Posts
On July 30 2009 17:05 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:And in that light, it's an interesting set of data Thanks Any chance of TLPD getting an export function so I don't need to make 147 player entries in an excel table by hand to do it? ;-) | ||
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Adeny
Norway1233 Posts
On July 30 2009 17:05 Probe. wrote: No. The argument was that protoss was the "easy race" because all they had to do is 1a2a3a to win or make DT. People were complaining that if a protoss just macro and attack moves their army is way stronger, would always win battles, and thus is the "overpowered" race. Why the hell would people complain to losing to protoss simply because it's just easier to play as perfectly? 'Kay I've been trying to formulate an explanation but I'm unable to put it to words. I'll try to make a summarization of my thoughts but it's probably not going to make any sense. The amount of skill required to play protoss to a certain potential is lower at the low levels of play. The races are fairly (for the sake if it lets say perfectly) balanced if both players play their races at even potential. So if we have a protoss and a terran player playing at 20% of the maximum potential of their race (D+ or w/e), the terran player will have the stronger individual skill (separated from race), because it requires more individual skill for him to raise terran to be equal to protoss. Thus protoss is ezpzmode 1a2a3a. | ||
OneOther
United States10774 Posts
either way, great work on this interesting set of data ;D | ||
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Probe.
United States877 Posts
On July 30 2009 17:27 Adeny wrote: 'Kay I've been trying to formulate an explanation but I'm unable to put it to words. I'll try to make a summarization of my thoughts but it's probably not going to make any sense. The amount of skill required to play protoss to a certain potential is lower at the low levels of play. The races are fairly (for the sake if it lets say perfectly) balanced if both players play their races at even potential. So if we have a protoss and a terran player playing at 20% of the maximum potential of their race (D+ or w/e), the terran player will have the stronger individual skill (separated from race), because it requires more individual skill for him to raise terran to be equal to protoss. Thus protoss is ezpzmode 1a2a3a. The only reason people think it's "easier" to play as protoss is because they think it's "overpowered". If all the protoss player has to do is 1a2a3a to win, it's not only easy to do that, but also that means just by attacking and macroing alone they can win a game thus the race is "overpowered". | ||
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lazz
Australia3119 Posts
On July 30 2009 16:45 gjg.instinct wrote: I wonder if it's a factor that terran and zerg users are simply better players since their races require greater focus / precision over more aspects of the game. this is what bad terrans actually believe | ||
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meegrean
Thailand7699 Posts
Skill is still much much more important than race balance | ||
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Adeny
Norway1233 Posts
On July 30 2009 18:10 Probe. wrote: The only reason people think it's "easier" to play as protoss is because they think it's "overpowered". If all the protoss player has to do is 1a2a3a to win, it's not only easy to do that, but also that means just by attacking and macroing alone they can win a game thus the race is "overpowered". You are stubborn. Okay, lets try a metaphor. 6 marines can kill one reaver comfortably with the proper micro. Which army is greater, 6 marines or one reaver? The 6 marines ofcourse. However if the terran doesn't go to the length of individually spreading every marine so that each shot never hits 2 marines, the reaver will win the fight. If the terran is simply not skilled enough to spread his marines against the reaver, HE STILL HAS THE GREATER ARMY HE JUST ISN'T ABLE TO UTILIZE ITS POTENTIAL to overcome the opponent's army. So at a low level where terrans can't spread their marines properly (metaphorically speaking ofcourse), my mom could win by playing the reaver, and my mom could win as easily as Bisu could, however the terran would have to be above a certain skill threshold to be able to make his superior army actually win. See the 6 marines as the terran's tools in a game, and the reaver as the protoss' tools. I'm out of ideas on how to explain this so that'll have to be my last attempt. | ||
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Probe.
United States877 Posts
On July 30 2009 18:30 Adeny wrote: You are stubborn. Okay, lets try a metaphor. 6 marines can kill one reaver comfortably with the proper micro. Which army is greater, 6 marines or one reaver? The 6 marines ofcourse. However if the terran doesn't go to the length of individually spreading every marine so that each shot never hits 2 marines, the reaver will win the fight. If the terran is simply not skilled enough to spread his marines against the reaver, HE STILL HAS THE GREATER ARMY HE JUST ISN'T ABLE TO UTILIZE ITS POTENTIAL to overcome the opponent's army. So at a low level where terrans can't spread their marines properly (metaphorically speaking ofcourse), my mom could win by playing the reaver, and my mom could win as easily as Bisu could, however the terran would have to be above a certain skill threshold to be able to make his superior army actually win. See the 6 marines as the terran's tools in a game, and the reaver as the protoss' tools. I'm out of ideas on how to explain this so that'll have to be my last attempt. I know what you're trying to say, I just think it's stupid. People often complain that protoss is easier to play as at a low rank but i don't see how. It takes pretty much the exact same amount of skill to play any race, it's just user specific. When i started off as protoss i was D/D+ level. Soon after i tried zerg and hit C-. It takes the same amount of skill for the protoss to make and units and attack as it does for a terran or zerg to make units and defend. Also your example sucks. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13365 Posts
I'd be interested to see this analysis done post Savior and Bisu's infamous MSL final. | ||
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dhe95
United States1213 Posts
On July 30 2009 17:05 Probe. wrote: No. The argument was that protoss was the "easy race" because all they had to do is 1a2a3a to win or make DT. People were complaining that if a protoss just macro and attack moves their army is way stronger, would always win battles, and thus is the "overpowered" race. Why the hell would people complain to losing to protoss simply because it's just easier to play as perfectly? They would... until the other races reach a skill level where they can macro and micro well. Dragoons and zealots are a lot more easier to micro than tanks and vultures and casting storms is a lot easier than dodging them. So until a Terran can micro tanks and vultures and a Zerg can storm dodge, protoss will seem a lot easier to them. Most of this protoss imba you hear are at D levels, where most of the protosses either suck at C so they bash on D, or they're at the same skill level as you are, but your race has a higher learning curve. | ||
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LuDwig-
Italy1143 Posts
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baubo
China3370 Posts
On July 30 2009 19:49 RowdierBob wrote: I think there's a slight flaw when you're looking at progaming in its entirety. Before the Bisu PvZ revolution, the T>Z>P=T theory was probably correct, but since then it has changed quite a bit. I'd be interested to see this analysis done post Savior and Bisu's infamous MSL final. The matchup is still very much Z > P. Bisu's build was a nice counter to Savior's style. And Bisu's own PvZ could maintain its brilliance due to his incredible APM and multi-tasking skills. But none of that change the fact that protoss after FE is in full defensive mode. And the amount of defense they need is usually a guess. Guessing wrong usually leads to immediate gg or a huge disadvantage going into the mid-game. While guessing right simply leads to a balanced position or only slightly favorable position. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13365 Posts
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Camlito
Australia4040 Posts
On July 30 2009 18:40 Probe. wrote: I know what you're trying to say, I just think it's stupid. People often complain that protoss is easier to play as at a low rank but i don't see how. It takes pretty much the exact same amount of skill to play any race, it's just user specific. When i started off as protoss i was D/D+ level. Soon after i tried zerg and hit C-. It takes the same amount of skill for the protoss to make and units and attack as it does for a terran or zerg to make units and defend. Also your example sucks. You must be zork. Anyway protoss is easier to play at lower levels mechanically, through reasons that have been explained 300 times. This is why protoss is used to learn the game for most players, but after the learning stage, those players decide if they want to try another race with the skills they learnt from protoss, or stay with protoss. (Many players do play zerg or terran to start, but protoss is the favored starting race). This could be why people hate/think protoss is overpowered, because there's so many protosseswhen they start, along with how forgiving protoss is at the start, they get annoyed, and go on about how it's easier. This thinking probably carries on to the C ranks, and then somehow at 1 stage (during the 6 dragons period) came to progaming lol. There were some people in LR threads who said protosses at progaming level finally learnt how to "1a2a3a" -_-. | ||
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wo0py
Netherlands922 Posts
Statistics are very dangerous when things are taken out. Its difficult to take every aspect. Like strategy changes and map pools. | ||
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Archaic
United States4024 Posts
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