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On August 01 2009 17:49 TwoToneTerran wrote:Whenever they win only because one player shows up (Both Skyhigh at WL and Effort vs Khan), it's not indicative of anything, but when they lose it's just a bad night, or a fluke, or what?
Well the fact that Skyhigh is not the same person as effort already says something about depth, doesn't it?
But I do agree that the whole depth point is overrated
On August 01 2009 17:51 tobi9999 wrote:
I understand your point but one could argue that Oz is deep too.
Zerg Jaedong/Killer
Protoss Backho/(Perfectman/Spear/Young)
Terran Lomo/HiyA
is this really that much worse?
First of all, why do you have Killer standing there, he's had like 5 TV matches and hasn't proven anything (yet)
But yeah the thing is, IF Oz's player bring their absolute A-game, then no, it isn't worse than CJ's line up at all.
But BackHo (kinda like movie) is terribly inconsistent, Lomo didn't play as good as he used to, and hiya was in a big slump.
Also, the distance between those 3 players and Jaedong is just so big - which doesn't have to mean that therefore they are worse than CJ in depth, it might just mean that JD is just that good.
After all there's a reason for why Oz was on #1 of the PL rankings nearly the entire team.
But people see these points and therefore think OK Oz's depth sucks because JD is so much better than everyone else in his team.
And tbh, when Oz didn't have backho and lomo and hiya weren't performing it was 100% true. Oz's non JD line up did suck. Hard.
But BackHo is back, he's been playing smarter than he used to, and lomo and hiya have had plenty of time to practice and to think about why they weren't doing that well during the season.
So yeah I do agree that the depth discussion is overrated, I'm barely pointing out that there's reasons for why people think that way.
Oh and you said Iris is only performing in GOM - but he's also still in the msl, being up 1 - 0 against Bisu. But I think this is also another problem for CJ because Iris seems to be very very very focused on the individual league and not so much on the pro league, unlike effort who is doing quite the opposite (well, now hes out of every individ. league anyways).
Oh and since I just read the new kespa rankings
This shows you perfectly why people think CJ depth >> Oz depth:
01.  Jaedong 3224.5 -
06. EffOrt 1876.1 ▲6
15. Kwanro 1258.3 ▲7
20.  Iris 982.9 ▲9
26. sKyHigh 849.0 ▲2
27. HiyA 812.6 ▽7
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On August 01 2009 17:51 tobi9999 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2009 16:38 TwoToneTerran wrote:On August 01 2009 16:11 tobi9999 wrote:
Wow, i still can't believe people think that CJ is deep, they have EffOrt and EffOrt. I dislike the "depth" prattling too, but there's no way you can say it's false. Their protoss line is mediocre to good, but Skyhigh/Iris and Effort/Kwanro make a damn good four man line up. Movie/Much, while not as strong, is better than any team's protoss line up that doesn't include dragons(Unless you have some misplaced hope in violet+tempest like me). But they did get roflstomped, with half of the previous players losing their games (and only one winning), so hopefully they're a bit more humble. I understand your point but one could argue that Oz is deep too. Zerg Jaedong/Killer Protoss Backho/(Perfectman/Spear/Young) Terran Lomo/HiyA is this really that much worse? Iris, although doing well in GOM, isn't really performing that well otherwise. Much, is slumping/sucks? because he almost never shows up to game and when he does he loses. Skyhigh is inconsistant, so is Kwanro due to using such risky builds. EffOrt is REALLY REALLY good, but he is a guy who has not won a starleague and is on a 8 game losing streak here. Movie, is also really inconsistant beating jaedong and leta one day, losing to Justin the other. CJ's players have big names, but not great skills in my opinion. Oz's players aren't that great either, but they're underestimated so much while CJ's players are overhyped
Iris has been 1-1 in the playoffs so far, and his comeback vs FBH? Lol not playing well is a bit much, but likely he will win his next game and continue his 50% win rate.
OZ isn't deep don't even kid yourself. They can clearly get wins though, don't necessarily need to be CJ deep to win especially in this format. But how is skyhigh inconsistent. He raped Leta 2x, whooped on great and defeated Lomo, he lost in an odd manner vs Stork but hes been rock solid so far. Lol at 8 game losing streak, while he technically is a SIX GAME losing streak. Come on he just saved CJ from the Wrath of Khan then lost 3-0 to his teammate and those lost 2 zvzs to Calm (9 pool vs 12 hatch) and 1 to jaedong. When you actually lay out the facts its not that bad, but perhaps thats why you had to inflate this losing streak?
You then toss in the fact that Effort hasn't won a starleague which is completely moot as no one except Jaedong or Savior on either team have a starleague title either. CJ players have big names but not great skills? Uh how do you think they got these big names? They werent dt dropping their way to victory(ok maybe Much did a few times).
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On July 20 2009 08:23 TwoStep wrote:
"The format has already proven to fully maximize S-class players." Maximize my ass,
Okay, I just did some math. Note that the scenario I used is not totally representative of what happens here. I don't know what conclusions you can draw from this, but it's still interesting.
Assume that for each game, Team A has 60% chance to win, and team B has 40%, except in a Super Ace match (not normal ace match). For the Super Ace match, the percentages are reversed.
Then, under the old Bo7 format, Team A would have a 71.0208% chance of winning. Under this new format, Team A has a 75.137% chance of winning.
If the percentages are 70/30 then Team A has a 87.3% and 83% change of winning; the winning percentage actually goes down, but not by much anyways.
The way it would actually maximize teams with one S-class player and little depth is if the final deciding ace match was a Bo3....which is what every STX fan wanted anyways.
So basically, STX feel gipped at the format because it allowed a less deep team to win, complained, and suggested a way that would make it easier for a less deep team to win.
Just think. CJ lost the first day to KHAN (it could have been 4-0, doesn't matter). The second day, just two of their players (beside Effort) won. And then Effort win three games and they're there. That's just what Oz needs. Just two victories in the same day and lean on Jaedong's victory machine.
In other words, this format is so that if you have depth, you're wasting your breath on winning useless games. You just need a 4-3 in the second day -and two of these games can be won by the same player - and the very same guy to win you the ace match.
That's why Oz >>>>>>> CJ. Because Jaedong >>>>>> Effort or Stork
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updated OP to make it a little more perfect
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Jaedong > Effort in the first day. And, oh, it didn't even had to go to tiebrakers.
That means that Jaedong just need to win one match and they're at the finals. And no one in his team need to anything. CJ can 4-0 Oz and then Jaedong will crush Effort again.
Man, I just hate this format.
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On August 02 2009 13:04 r3z3nd3 wrote:
Jaedong > Effort in the first day. And, oh, it didn't even had to go to tiebrakers.
That means that Jaedong just need to win one match and they're at the finals. And no one in his team need to anything. CJ can 4-0 Oz and then Jaedong will crush Effort again.
Man, I just hate this format.
that's a pretty good prediction.
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DUDE. if jd faces fantasy/bisu in the finals he's gonna win for sure.
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Braavos36402 Posts
I dunno why people keep whining about format. This is what proleague is now. Its about ace matches. There's no contract that says in Proleague the team with the most depth should win, so I don't know why people get so mad that the team with the best player wins. It happens in just about every team sport, basketball, football, etc. The team with the overall best player usually wins.
As for the specific STX vs Samsung match, Calm lost to great, then lost to Jangbi, so that's two people on the other team that your ace couldn't beat, not just one.
Yes, my team CJ lost to Hwaseung because of Jaedong in the super ace. But I think its completely fair and justified. CJ didn't play well on Day 1 and lost it there. We lost because CJ's players played bad not because of the format. At the end of the day it still comes down to who wins the games, lets just get past the format whining.
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OZ wont win PL. for the sake of esport development.
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psh oz will win to advance esports 
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On August 06 2009 00:43 monstar123 wrote:
OZ wont win PL. for the sake of esport development.
More like Jaedong will win everything and become the next super star for the sake of esports development .
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On August 02 2009 03:00 Ideas wrote:
updated OP to make it a little more perfect
That was a perfect update.
Also, everyone beware: on day 2 Perfectman is playing Bisu! Omg!
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On August 06 2009 01:31 JohnBall wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2009 03:00 Ideas wrote:
updated OP to make it a little more perfect That was a perfect update. Also, skt fanboys beware: on day 2 Perfectman is playing Bisu! Omg!
More accurate
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On August 06 2009 01:31 JohnBall wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2009 03:00 Ideas wrote:
updated OP to make it a little more perfect That was a perfect update. Also, everyone beware: on day 2 Perfectman is playing Bisu! Omg!
ahaha the the 7th coming is going to slaughter bisu!
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Some things are obvious:
1) Jaedong will (b)eat every single prey that stands on his way.
2) All Jaedong's teammates are extremely inconsistent.
3) OZ has better lineup on Day 1.
4) SKT Zergs suck.
Conclusions:
1) SKT badly needs to win both days without ace matches.
2) Day 1 will be decisive: if OZ wins, they'll be champions.
3) To win Day 1, OZ must win one of the ZvZ and probably BackHo - Best game.
4) Double win in Day 1 ZvZ's will be almost title-clinching for either team.
5) IT WILL BE DAMN CLOSE!!
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so what happens if oz wins both days thus no super ace.. ?
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On August 06 2009 02:22 StorrZerg wrote:
so what happens if oz wins both days thus no super ace.. ?
Everyone will say SKT1 is just bad because no one can admit that Oz might be better than they expected.
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On August 06 2009 02:11 levelzx wrote:
Some things are obvious:
1) Jaedong will (b)eat every single prey that stands on his way.
2) All Jaedong's teammates are extremely inconsistent.
3) OZ has better lineup on Day 1.
4) SKT Zergs suck.
Conclusions:
1) SKT badly needs to win both days without ace matches.
2) Day 1 will be decisive: if OZ wins, they'll be champions.
3) To win Day 1, OZ must win one of the ZvZ and probably BackHo - Best game.
4) Double win in Day 1 ZvZ's will be almost title-clinching for either team.
5) IT WILL BE DAMN CLOSE!!
Uh what? JD has 2 people on equal playing field on him on SKT that aren't zerg. Meaning an Ace match isn't necessarily going to be his win since he doesn't get to play a ZvZ ace.
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It would be funny if Jaedong doesn't get sent for Ace. I'd totally take Backho winning for Oz in the super ace match =D
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EPT
