• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 01:30
CEST 07:30
KST 14:30
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2914Serral wins Maestros of the Game 243ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play3Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners7Code S Season 2 (2026): RO4 and Finals Preview12
Community News
IntoTheTV X SOOP SC2 League : Weekly & Monthly4Clem: "I don't have that much hope in Blizzard"2ZeroSpace Early Access is Now Live!26Weekly Cups (July 13-19): Terran & Protoss rise; Zerg falters2Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16)90
StarCraft 2
General
How would you feel about frequent/monthly balance patches for SC2? Reynor: GSL Loss Wasn't About Preparation Format What's the best tug of war? Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16) Clem: "I don't have that much hope in Blizzard"
Tourneys
RSL Revival: Season 6 - Qualifiers and Main Event PIG STY FESTIVAL 8.0! (13 - 23 August) IntoTheTV X SOOP SC2 League : Weekly & Monthly INu's Battles#18 - Cure, herO, Rogue & ByuN Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2)
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
[M] (2) Industrial Park New Map Maker - Looking for Advice - Love or Hate
External Content
Mutation # 535 Assembly of Vengeance The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 534 Burning Evacuation Mutation # 533 Die Together
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion Recent recommended BW games screpdb: new Starcraft reporting tool ASL22 General Discussion
Tourneys
Star Con San Diego 2026 BSL LAN Party - Kraków 29-30 August - OPEN SIGNUPS [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Escore Tournament - Season 3
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers PvT advise for noobs Fighting Spirit mining rates Creating a full chart of Zerg builds
Other Games
General Games
General RTS Discussion Thread Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile ZeroSpace Early Access is Now Live! Diablo IV
Dota 2
Looking for a Dota Mentor Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
TSM pausing esports and CLG Dead
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Power Rank TL Mafia Community Thread NeO.D_StephenKing vs This Guy From 1 Million Dance
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread Artificial Intelligence Thread US Politics Mega-thread How to buy a book - shipping from Korea to Europe
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club The HerO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread Series you have seen recently... [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread 2026-27 Football Thread placeholder TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Simple Questions Simple Answers FPS when play League Of Legend on laptop
TL Community
Northern Ireland Global Starcraft The Automated Ban List
Blogs
How Games can Help with Majo…
TrAiDoS
Hello guys!
LIN1s
ASL S22 English Commentary…
namkraft
Poker (part 2)
Nebuchad
An Exploration of th…
waywardstrategy
ramps on octagon
StaticNine
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 12901 users

A History of Terran vs. Zerg - Page 6

Forum Index > BW General
199 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 4 5 6 7 8 10 Next All
Letmelose
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
Korea (South)3227 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-05-31 07:20:19
May 31 2009 07:17 GMT
#101
Translator's notes:
1) I found it unclear what the author meant by 3 gas Hive during Ma Jae Yoon's era that ended with Kim Jun Yeong's Starleague win, because the 3 gas muta to Hive build is still being used today. It might be either a 3 gas Hive rush, which Ma Jae Yoon was fond of doing, or simply the same build as today used on less favorable maps (Longi+ReTem era).


I'm not sure if I'm qualified to explain, but I'll try anyways. It's because the battle between "standard" three hatchery opening and "standard" single barrack into fast expansion resulted in a complete and utter defeat for the zergs. After terrans readjusted the fast expansion build to incorporate fast +1 attack to minimize the effect of the relatively late 3 hatchery mutalisk harass - and learned how to deal with zerg hive play by keeping the main army alive (therefore keeping control of the centre) and delaying the 4th gas for zergs (which keeps ultralisks out of the picture) while constantly getting the better end of the deal with well upgraded marines and mass vessels - zergs were basically done for.

The 3 hatchery opening, with flexible larva count and high drone count, gave zergs a head start against terrans who were unable to counter it successfully at the time. Mutalisk harass and hive play were secondary at the time when the build was in its infancy. Like it is explained by the author of the article, the 3 hatchery play has evolved a lot, and so did the standard FE play by the terrans. The 3 hatchery play of Savior (the progamer central to this story) in 2005, 2006 and 2007 are all different. He constantly had to change his style in order to stay ahead of terrans who were coping with his style better and better.

But with terrans no longer spazzing out to defiler play, and with zergs unable to get map control even after defiler usage, 3 hatchery play popularized by Savior met its demise. GGPlay was the last zerg to profit from the 3 hatchery management (in fact, there is almost no difference in GGPlay's 3 hatchery play in Daum OSL and standard 3 hatchery play now almost two years on). Even though 3 hatchery management is still used today, it has lost a lot of value as the mainstream play in ZvT. The 2 hatchery play didn't get popularized without a reason - 3 hatchery evolution came to a dead end sometime around Daum OSL. With terrans knowing the exact counter to it by the very second, zergs were forced to find another way.
TL+ Member
Osmoses
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Sweden5302 Posts
May 31 2009 08:14 GMT
#102
Great read. Everyone loves a good graph.
Excuse me hun, but what is your name? Vivian? I woke up next to you naked and, uh, did we, um?
Pokernubz
Profile Joined May 2009
Canada88 Posts
May 31 2009 09:37 GMT
#103
Great read, just about as epic as watching an epic ZVT
Lee Jae Dong! Phil Ivey! Lee Young-Ho! Tom Dwan!
azndsh
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States4447 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-05-31 11:27:16
May 31 2009 11:26 GMT
#104
man this was awesome

prediction: we're going to start seeing hydra breaks zvt next at this rate
Starparty
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
Sweden1963 Posts
May 31 2009 12:14 GMT
#105
is it just me that thinks naming programers with their real names in post likes this is quite irritating, since everyone who is not hardcore, but still interested, is selectivelly excluded from knowing what the hell OP is speaking about what so ever??
The artist formerly known as Starparty
StRyKeR
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
United States1739 Posts
May 31 2009 13:54 GMT
#106
On May 31 2009 21:14 Starparty wrote:
is it just me that thinks naming programers with their real names in post likes this is quite irritating, since everyone who is not hardcore, but still interested, is selectivelly excluded from knowing what the hell OP is speaking about what so ever??


I wanted to stay true to the original post. However, I have put their handles in parentheses after the names' first mention
Ars longa, vita brevis, principia aeturna.
Skeggaba
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
Korea (South)1556 Posts
May 31 2009 15:01 GMT
#107
This article is amazing - the person who wrote it must be a HUGE nerd. And i like nerds.
Thanks for the translation!
Bisu[about JD]=I was scared (laughs). The force emanating from his facial expression was so manly that I was even a little jealous.
OmgIRok
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Taiwan2699 Posts
May 31 2009 16:12 GMT
#108
Great article + translation!

Just goes to show how StarCraft is forever changing, and excites me because of the fact that there will be more TvZ imbalances going, which might lead to new BO's, strats, etc.
"Wanna join my [combo] clan?" "We play turret d competitively"
Polyphasic
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States841 Posts
May 31 2009 16:51 GMT
#109
koreans read this all day? no wonder they dominate in strategy
can't making a relationship last longer than 2 weeks, since 1984 :thumbs:
Polyphasic
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States841 Posts
May 31 2009 16:54 GMT
#110
On May 31 2009 14:18 Zzoram wrote:
When did muta clumping first show up in Pro Starcraft? Is there a VOD of the first televised muta control game? It must have been shocking.


yes i would like to know this as well.

i believe the first person to use this in a pro match might have been julyzerg.

but it was probably perfected much later by other zergs.

julyzerg's TvZ when he started using stack mutas was monster. the terrans had no idea what was going on, and his mutas would just go in and slaughter marines and scvs like they were bnet noobs. no missile turrets, just marines running around like idiots. so fun to watch.
can't making a relationship last longer than 2 weeks, since 1984 :thumbs:
danieldrsa
Profile Joined June 2008
Brazil523 Posts
May 31 2009 17:17 GMT
#111
im still an ignorant in Starcraft, so i can be saying bullshit,
but that is the best article ive read here in TL since 2007
-*-
Night[Mare
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
Mexico4793 Posts
May 31 2009 17:20 GMT
#112
On May 29 2009 10:54 Last Romantic wrote:
This article was very cool :D Or maybe I just like history.


it's amazing how fast terran comes with an answer to zerg builds, hence, 60% or more of the time T winrate vs zerg is above 60%.

also, i agree with LR
Teamliquidian townie
GogoKodo
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
Canada1785 Posts
May 31 2009 19:37 GMT
#113
I don't have a chance to read through all this now but I got through a little and it's pretty interesting.
Nice work with the translation, thanks.
twitter: @terrancem
iNcontroL *
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
USA29055 Posts
May 31 2009 20:00 GMT
#114
really nice article
Tuke
Profile Joined January 2009
Finland1666 Posts
May 31 2009 20:03 GMT
#115
Awesome article, thx for this
TeamLiquid CJ Entusman #42
QuoC
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
United States724 Posts
May 31 2009 20:14 GMT
#116
unbelievably complicated..
i hope whoever's doing this is getting paid 0_o
Dario "TLO" Wünsch -- Favorite SC2 Player
Torenhire
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States11681 Posts
May 31 2009 20:46 GMT
#117
Awesome!
SirJolt: Well maybe if you weren't so big and stupid, it wouldn't have hit you.
Eniram
Profile Blog Joined January 2004
Sudan3166 Posts
May 31 2009 22:23 GMT
#118
TO OP: Imagine the things you could accomplish if you devoted this effort elsewhere.
You can like take a newb to like water, but you cant like make a newb drink. Ya know? - Jeremy
funnybananaman
Profile Joined April 2009
United States830 Posts
May 31 2009 23:13 GMT
#119
very interesting article, although i think it would be greatly improved with a section about TvZ history dating back to the boxer vs yellow days. but when i think starcraft, tvz is the classic matchup in my opinion.
Zzoram
Profile Joined February 2008
Canada7115 Posts
June 01 2009 10:23 GMT
#120
What is the oldest VOD available with muta micro? Anyone know? I'd like to watch it. Even if it isn't the first instance of it, I'd still like to see how it was handled in it's infancy.
Prev 1 4 5 6 7 8 10 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 3h 30m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
NeuroSwarm 276
RuFF_SC2 197
Nina 77
FoxeR 54
StarCraft: Brood War
Shuttle 1392
Leta 170
yabsab 14
firebathero 0
League of Legends
JimRising 774
Counter-Strike
summit1g10001
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox589
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor152
Other Games
WinterStarcraft696
ROOTCatZ239
Nathanias59
amsayoshi26
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1082
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH292
• davetesta24
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• iopq 8
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• lizZardDota2110
Upcoming Events
RSL Revival
3h 30m
Clem vs ByuN
Rogue vs Lambo
OSC
6h 30m
Online Event
9h 30m
WardiTV Weekly
1d 5h
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
INu's Battles
2 days
Cure vs herO
ByuN vs Rogue
PiGosaur Cup
2 days
The PondCast
3 days
Kung Fu Cup
3 days
Patches Events
3 days
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
4 days
CrankTV Team League
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
CrankTV Team League
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Afreeca Starleague
5 days
RSL Revival
6 days
WardiTV Summer Champion…
6 days
Afreeca Starleague
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

ASL S22 SEASON OPEN Day 2
HSC XXIX
Eternal Conflict S2 E3

Ongoing

CSL 2026 Summer (S21)
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
RSL Revival: Season 6
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
SCTL 2026 Spring
Eternal Conflict S2 Finale
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S3: W5
ASL Season 22: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 22: Qualifier #2
Acropolis #5
CSLAN 4
ASL Season 22
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
HSC XXX
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
PiG Sty Festival 8.0
Light Tournament 2026
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
Logitech G Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #5
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.