The graph above shows the balance between Terran and Zerg starting from the dynasty of Bonjwa Ma Jae Yoon (sAviOr) to today. At first glance, one can conclude that the two races simply had their transient moments of dominance, hacking away at each other to and fro. However, if you think of the era, the players representing that era, and the strategies representing that era, you can put meaning to every detail in this graph. writing is based on analyzing this graph and recovering the trends in strategies in TvZ and ZvT.
(* Note: The graph shows TvZ winrate. That is, the higher the graph, the better the Terrans are doing.)
1. August 2006 to November 2006 - 3-hatch muta to 4 gas
Shinhan Starleague Season 2 - Lee Yun Yeol (NaDa) win Pringles MSL Season 2 - Ma Jae Yoon win
This is the era in which the so-called 3-hatch - muta control - defiler, the Zerg's three-legged strategy, is perfected. There is the incident of Zergs winning 10:0 on Arcadia vs. Terran.
During this era, Zergs follow Ma Jae Yoon's 3-hatch muta into 4 gas build. Terrans have a lot of trouble fighting against the mutalisks and lurkers of a 4 gas Zerg and eventually die to defilers [note: yes, he means that the 4 gas was complete before Hive]. However, Lee Jae Ho (Light) successfully secures a win against Zerg on Arcadia and the Terrans start fighting back.
2. December 2006 to March 2007 - Longinus and Reverse Temple, the 1rax cc
Shinhan Starleague Season 3 - Ma Jae Yoon win GomTV MSL - Kim Taek Yong win
Zergs struggle through the Longinus + Reverse Temple combo. The Terrans nonchalantly block their entrance and go 1rax cc, sometimes even without a single marine. During this time, Terrans achieve 71:57 (55.47%) against Zerg and Ma Jae Yoon records 14: 9 (60.87%).
The Terran trend during this era is a 1rax cc fitted to the favorable maps. The Terrans' fast expo allow them to gather marines and medics that much faster, and the mutalisk's ability to stall time decreased accordingly. Due to this stall control, Ma Jae Yoon's 3-hatch into 4 gas build is destroyed. As a result, Ma Jae Yoon changes course from a 4 gas Lair to a 3 gas Hive and gives up the Lair timing macro war. This build works surprisingly well, and this build becomes the norm in ZvT for a while to come.
3. April 2007 to August 2007 - The rolling of the Ball
Daum Starleague - Kim Jun Yeong (GGPlay) win GomTV MSL s2 - Kim Taek Yong (Bisu) win Shinhan Proleague 2007 - Samsung Khan Win
(The upward bulge to the left of the graph includes the wins and losses during the Longinus and Reverse Temple era.)
Zergs utilize Ma Jae Yoon's 3 gas to Hive build more and more effectively. The Zergs gain a foothold in the strategic war against the Terrans. In particular, Kim Jun Yeong, who perfects the strategy of using 3 gas to Hive, stalling with a few Zerglings and Defilers and amassing Ultralisks, wins the Daum Starleague and leads the so-called Ma Jun Dong era.
The wind changes direction at the end of June. On June 24, 2007, Lee Sung Eun (firebathero) defeats Ma Jae Yoon in the GomTV MSL s2 RO8 in a BO5. 3 gas provides the bare minimum gas requirement for Zergs to tech to Hive effectively. Lee Sung Eun showcases a strategy of fighting skirmishes with the Zerg for map control while keeping his units alive, slowly eating away at the Zerg's gas. In this way, he makes it difficult for the Zerg to get 4 gas.
By the time Kim Jun Yeong wins a Starleague in July 2007, the Terrans had already caught up and their win rate is rather high. Kim Jun Yeong's win signifies the last gasp of the 3 gas to Hive build.
September 2007 to February 2008 - Crazy Zerg, 2-hatch muta
GomTV MSL s3 - Park Sung Gyun (Mind) win EVER Starleague 2007 - Lee Jaedong (Jaedong) win GomTV MSL s4 - Lee Jae Dong win Bacchus Starleague - Lee Young Ho (Flash) win
Considering all past Zerg trends, perhaps the biggest force and impact is made by the Crazy Zerg build. Looking back since 1999, arguably no other build has ever decreased the TvZ win rate so much as the Crazy Zerg. In particular, Blue Storm, practically built for muta harass, helps a lot.
Crazy Zerg is developed as a counter to the Terran Ball after the advent of 3 gas Hive. Instead of putting gas into Lurkers, Zergs only hatch mutas and zerglings and survive the Lair phase into an explosion of Ultralisks. Because of mutas and lings, Terrans have a hard time moving out before Vessels. By the time they gather enough of a force, their marines and medics face Ultralisks sitting in their nat. And then, the 2-hatch muta, the so-called 6:30 build, is introduced. Led by Park Myung Soo and Park Chan Soo, the resurrected 2-hatch muta build is especially effective on Blue Storm, and even Terrans expecting 2-hatch muta are obliterated by strong muta control and sometimes even mutas alone are enough to finish off the Terran.
Terrans respond with the so-called 7-rax build to counter Crazy Zerg. The idea is to increase the barracks count suddenly to achieve a timing push during the Zerg's Lair phase when all they have are mutas and lings. Without Lurkers, Zergs find it impossible to push back an ungodly mass of marines and medics, and eventually, Crazy Zerg dies out.
The greatly effective 2-hatch muta build, the so-called 6:30 build, does not make it out of Blue Storm.
5. April 2008 to October 2008 - Zerg's Dark Ages, the Resurrection of 2-hatch muta
EVER 08 Starleague - Park Sung Jun (JulyZerg) win Incruit Starleague - Song Byung Gu (Stork) win Arena MSL - Park Ji Soo (forGG) win Clubday MSL - Kim Taek Yong win 2008 Shinhan Proleague - Hwaseung win
Besides the fact that the Zergs are in despair, not much can be said during this time. There are only 86 TvZ's. One only needs to compare the ZvT stats, 33-53 (38.37%), to the Longi&ReTem era stats of 44% to realize just how bad it is. In particular, Othello 16: 9 (64%) and Tiamat 5:0 (100%) are quite revealing.
The commonality in both these maps is the existence of a close-by 3rd gas expo. This feature is epitomized in Othello, where you can take a 3rd right after your nat. This 3rd allows Terrans to quickly expo as well as reduce the route towards the Zerg. As soon as the Terrans take the third, the distances become shorter, and the Zerg race that relies heavily on mobility faces great pressure. Other maps that share this feature are Colosseum, Wuthering Heights, and Andromeda.
The popular Terran build at the time is very effective. For the first half of 2007 and even 2009 today, the 1rax cc and 3-hatch muta are so-called textbook builds that did not change very much. The 2008 first half in between these times is no different. The 1rax cc against the 3-hatch muta followed by the Ball is the Terran's reliable build. From there, variants such as a fast engineering bay into fast upgraded marines makes it even harder for Zergs. Added to the destruction of the Crazy Zerg strategy that was popular for the latter half of 2007, the frustration keeps growing.
The first effective response led by Jaedong is the Lurker-first opening. At the time, Zergs found it hard to deal with Terran's fast third. Flipping this logic around, using Lurkers to quickly take a third for Zerg is Lee Jaedong's Lurker-first strategy.
This sort of strategy is not new. It was seen in Lee Jaedong vs. Lee Young Ho, on Loki 2, GomTV MSL s4 RO8. Considered by many to be an epic game, Jaedong chooses lurker-first. Because Loki 2 had easy-to-take 3rds at the center-left and center-right, lurkers could be used to defend this location quickly and secure future gas expos.
But just as this strategy failed in this game, Jaedong's efforts end in vain. He is able to secure a few wins, but because the third is so exposed, it is difficult to defend with a small number of lurkers. In particular, once the Zerg and Terran both take their close 3rds, the rush distance becomes that much closer, forcing Zergs to defend the Terran's hanbang right in front of the Terran's base.
As Zergs continue to struggle, August 10, 2008 draws near.
Though not counted by KeSPA, an extremely important game is played on that day. It is the TG-Sambo Intel Classic Season 1 finals between Jaedong and Flash. In this series, Jaedong beats Flash 3:0. Considering the turmoil that Zergs have been going through, this result is remarkable, all the more because the first match is played on Othello's 16: 9 TvZ.
Jaedong's 3:0 hinges on the 2-hatch muta. The 2-hatch muta during this era is a response to 1rax cc. A major weakness that plagued the 2-hatch muta ever since its inception was its absence of an early game army. One could only defend with speedlings, but marines and medics are hard to defend against without sunkens.
With an early cc, Terrans are forced to delay the academy and extra barracks, delaying their marine and medic timing. As a result, the 2-hatch muta becomes macro-intensive much sooner than before. Consequently, a Terran going 1rax cc has to endure a long period of muta harass before Vessels kick in.
In the past, maps such as Blue Storm that allowed easy SCV kills attracted the 2-hatch muta build. Nowadays, the 2-hatch muta build is a textbook build for many maps. In particular, since October, maps such as Medusa, Destination, Chupungryeong, Harmony, etc. come with easy-to-muta-harass ledges and feature gas expos not near the center of the map but off to the side. These factors help the Zergs strike back.
Batoo Starleague - Lee Jaedong win Lost Saga MSL - Park Chan Soo win Winners League 08-09 Proleague 4th Round
In this way, the TvZ win rate slowly decreases. August is a turning point, at 5:5, and the trend continues to close to 40%.
This trend starts disappearing from October 17 until suddenly, in December, Terrans start winning like crazy. It is the rediscovery of the mechanic build. October 17 marks the date of Fantasy vs. GGPlay, Incruit Starleague RO4. Here, the so-called Val-iath, or iloveoov-style mechanic strategy, comes about, a combination of valkyries and traditional mech units rediscovered by Fantasy.
This trend is realized but stopped fairly soon. However, late November, Shin Hee Seung (Upmagic) introduces his own style of mech play and achieves a 9-1 record against Zergs. This style becomes the 'New Hope for Terran' and the TvZ win rate skyrockets. The mech play during this era is due a rediscovery of vulture spider mines and valkyries. Range-upgraded goliaths and valkyries efficiently shut down the mutalisk card while endless harass using cheap vultures throughout the game cooks the ire of Zerg and also observing Protoss players.
This mech era meets its end in the February of 2009, but no strategic trend has had as much of a major impact on the match up as Crazy Zerg and this mechanic play.
Nonetheless, this mechanic play is slowly evolving into Vionic (Valkyrie + Bionic) play. Recently, all maps come out favorable to muta harass. In such maps, 1rax cc openings get eaten alive by 2-hatch muta. In particular, during the Winners League finals, Jaedong vs. Iris, the fast mutas on Sin Chupungryeong indicate just how weak 1rax cc has gotten.
Due to that reason, the current trend is to annul the early muta threat using Valkyries and build up a marine medic army afterwards. In particular, with the power of Valkyries, the 2fact build that disappeared after the discovery of clumped muta control is resurging, and the Terrans are starting to strike back.
But still, the 2-hatch build is viable and TvZ seems to be at a 5:5 standstill for now.
I think a lot of edits can still be made to this article. I appreciate your helpful feedback.
- By Kim Yeon Woo (elcarim)
Translator's notes: 1) I found it unclear what the author meant by 3 gas Hive during Ma Jae Yoon's era that ended with Kim Jun Yeong's Starleague win, because the 3 gas muta to Hive build is still being used today. It might be either a 3 gas Hive rush, which Ma Jae Yoon was fond of doing, or simply the same build as today used on less favorable maps (Longi+ReTem era). 2) Some people mentioned Queens. The vibe I was getting from the author was that he only included skeletal, essential builds that greatly influenced the game. For example, 2 hatch muta is worlds apart from 3 hatch muta. Games Jaedong won against Flash during the GomTV finals might NOT have been possible without 2 hatch muta. However, it is arguable that games won with Queens could have been won without them, in the form of an extra Lurker or two. Also, Queens were not responsible for the surge in ZvT wins during that era (early 2009) -- it was the 2-hatch muta variations that countered mech and bionic builds alike. I believe the author wanted to point out that 2-hatch was the emergent trend.
This is quite interesting... although i wonder why it starts at 2006, there are some other noticeable changes in TvZ before that. But still this is well written and the progression in strategy is interesting.
On May 29 2009 11:13 n.DieJokes wrote: Very nice articles thank you; is there any reason Jaedongs experimentations with queens were left out? Were they just not relevant enough?
I don't think that was a trend. It was certainly useful, but not useful enough for all Zergs to pick up on it and etch it into a viable build into the annals of ZvT.
This is so incredibly awesome. I love when the game is quantitatively analyzed (like the earlier post about mining rates on specific mineral patches on python).
Do you know the total number of wins in a professional Korean sc match of Terran versus Zerg Win Ratio Statistic? Of ALL the games played of course. I remember someone posted in on TL before but I forgot the thread
On May 29 2009 11:13 n.DieJokes wrote: Very nice articles thank you; is there any reason Jaedongs experimentations with queens were left out? Were they just not relevant enough?
Basically only Jaedong can use the Lurker/Defiler/Queen combination to any effectiveness because of just how much multitasking and raw APM it requires.
When Jaedong says he struggles to use a certain unit combination there isn't much hope for us mortals >.>
On May 29 2009 11:34 AzureEye wrote: Do you know the total number of wins in a professional Korean sc match of Terran versus Zerg Win Ratio Statistic? Of ALL the games played of course. I remember someone posted in on TL before but I forgot the thread
I'm so glad somebody finally managed to translate this article. Thank you so much for the hard work. Kim Yeon Woo is one of my favourite posters in Korean communities and this article sheds so much light on the magnitude of the effect that strategic trends has on the balance of this match up.
On May 29 2009 11:13 n.DieJokes wrote: Very nice articles thank you; is there any reason Jaedongs experimentations with queens were left out? Were they just not relevant enough?
I don't think that was a trend. It was certainly useful, but not useful enough for all Zergs to pick up on it and etch it into a viable build into the annals of ZvT.
On May 29 2009 11:13 n.DieJokes wrote: Very nice articles thank you; is there any reason Jaedongs experimentations with queens were left out? Were they just not relevant enough?
Basically only Jaedong can use the Lurker/Defiler/Queen combination to any effectiveness because of just how much multitasking and raw APM it requires.
When Jaedong says he struggles to use a certain unit combination there isn't much hope for us mortals >.>
Who knows, by.Hero is apparently an APM bonjwa, if only terrans would start playing pure bio >.>
2. December 2006 to March 2007 - Longinus and Reverse Temple, the 1rax cc
Perhaps I'm ignorant, but weren't Terran doing 1rax CC on Rush Hour 3? Maybe Rush Hour 3 was during this time and I'm just getting my chronology screwed up.
On May 29 2009 12:40 SilverSkyLark wrote:Jaedong did Queens, but he was the only one good enought during his time to actually win with that build.
In due time, someone will immortalize Queens.
Ah common. I love Jaedong too, but he only did it once. It's hard to call it a foray into Queen usage when he hasn't tried it again since.
Which is unbelievable for me to say, someone who plays zerg/protoss and NEVER terran, who hates terran for their years of domination, and of course the siege "meat tank" push, of which I enjoy push-breaking them into oblivion over n over n over...
A fascinating look back and interesting stats...but I feel the author could have done a better job coming through on his assertion that by breaking down the stats by era, he could explain every fluctuation in balance - his descriptions often don't seem to correlate with or explain the data in the charts. Excellent article nonetheless.
Thanks for the great translation. But one zerg in particular already figured out mech. Yarnc is 14-2 last 16 ZvTs, Terrans must watch out, because this kid is dismantling them like crazy. He has a good shot of winning the OSL if he doesnt run into Bisu/Stork/JD.
2. December 2006 to March 2007 - Longinus and Reverse Temple, the 1rax cc
Perhaps I'm ignorant, but weren't Terran doing 1rax CC on Rush Hour 3? Maybe Rush Hour 3 was during this time and I'm just getting my chronology screwed up.
2. December 2006 to March 2007 - Longinus and Reverse Temple, the 1rax cc
Perhaps I'm ignorant, but weren't Terran doing 1rax CC on Rush Hour 3? Maybe Rush Hour 3 was during this time and I'm just getting my chronology screwed up.
It was awesome really. And i'm glad someone finally did this. I was really intrested in it. since i joined the scene(around the time Flash one the OSL) Terrans owned the zergs everywhere (+ZvT was my worst mu) which made me think TvZ is way easier than ZvT. I'm glad i have some stats to look at now. That 38% period is just insane, if you consider that starcraft is known as the most balanced RTS ever. Zergs are doing well against T for now, fortunately.
Altough i think you made a mistake: Terrans achieve 71:57 (44.53%) (probably you counted it as 57: 71)
On May 30 2009 01:44 gophillies3939 wrote: not even a mention that boxer brought back to valk ?
Boxer didnt bring back the valk, it was just the build Terrans used on Plasma, where Terrans used valks to deal with 2hat muta. Midas or Mind were the first to use it, then Fantasy adapted the build to work on all maps by dship play and caused mech resurgence.
On May 30 2009 01:44 gophillies3939 wrote: not even a mention that boxer brought back to valk ?
Boxer didnt bring back the valk, it was just the build Terrans used on Plasma, where Terrans used valks to deal with 2hat muta. Midas or Mind were the first to use it, then Fantasy adapted the build to work on all maps by dship play and caused mech resurgence.
I remember the Boxer vs Baxter games in GOM where Boxer did that, and Tl had some LOL WTF posts. Then afterwards Fantasy used it in Starleagues to beat zergs down.
Valks have been used sporadically since late 2007. Light vs jaedong, nada vs jaedong and I believe 1 upmagic game also. Boxer used valks as a 1 base counter to mutas, I think that was new, but overall valks vs mutas isn't.
There's a difference between using valks and standardizing valks, like how fantasy has done. Nowadays, every tvz game I can recall has use of Valkyries, even if only in the beginning to deter mutas while the m&m ball is strengthened and the tech tree is climbed. I can only think of casy vs roro on outsider and that's because he used old school one base play, rather than the 2 base macro style that has become the standard for modern tvz.
omg this is why i love TL, the fact that we can have articles that analyse the game like this is great. And this shows just how amazing SC is because of how the BO changed and led to certain winning trends for each race
Translator's notes: 1) I found it unclear what the author meant by 3 gas Hive during Ma Jae Yoon's era that ended with Kim Jun Yeong's Starleague win, because the 3 gas muta to Hive build is still being used today. It might be either a 3 gas Hive rush, which Ma Jae Yoon was fond of doing, or simply the same build as today used on less favorable maps (Longi+ReTem era).
I'm not sure if I'm qualified to explain, but I'll try anyways. It's because the battle between "standard" three hatchery opening and "standard" single barrack into fast expansion resulted in a complete and utter defeat for the zergs. After terrans readjusted the fast expansion build to incorporate fast +1 attack to minimize the effect of the relatively late 3 hatchery mutalisk harass - and learned how to deal with zerg hive play by keeping the main army alive (therefore keeping control of the centre) and delaying the 4th gas for zergs (which keeps ultralisks out of the picture) while constantly getting the better end of the deal with well upgraded marines and mass vessels - zergs were basically done for.
The 3 hatchery opening, with flexible larva count and high drone count, gave zergs a head start against terrans who were unable to counter it successfully at the time. Mutalisk harass and hive play were secondary at the time when the build was in its infancy. Like it is explained by the author of the article, the 3 hatchery play has evolved a lot, and so did the standard FE play by the terrans. The 3 hatchery play of Savior (the progamer central to this story) in 2005, 2006 and 2007 are all different. He constantly had to change his style in order to stay ahead of terrans who were coping with his style better and better.
But with terrans no longer spazzing out to defiler play, and with zergs unable to get map control even after defiler usage, 3 hatchery play popularized by Savior met its demise. GGPlay was the last zerg to profit from the 3 hatchery management (in fact, there is almost no difference in GGPlay's 3 hatchery play in Daum OSL and standard 3 hatchery play now almost two years on). Even though 3 hatchery management is still used today, it has lost a lot of value as the mainstream play in ZvT. The 2 hatchery play didn't get popularized without a reason - 3 hatchery evolution came to a dead end sometime around Daum OSL. With terrans knowing the exact counter to it by the very second, zergs were forced to find another way.
is it just me that thinks naming programers with their real names in post likes this is quite irritating, since everyone who is not hardcore, but still interested, is selectivelly excluded from knowing what the hell OP is speaking about what so ever??
On May 31 2009 21:14 Starparty wrote: is it just me that thinks naming programers with their real names in post likes this is quite irritating, since everyone who is not hardcore, but still interested, is selectivelly excluded from knowing what the hell OP is speaking about what so ever??
I wanted to stay true to the original post. However, I have put their handles in parentheses after the names' first mention
Just goes to show how StarCraft is forever changing, and excites me because of the fact that there will be more TvZ imbalances going, which might lead to new BO's, strats, etc.
On May 31 2009 14:18 Zzoram wrote: When did muta clumping first show up in Pro Starcraft? Is there a VOD of the first televised muta control game? It must have been shocking.
yes i would like to know this as well.
i believe the first person to use this in a pro match might have been julyzerg.
but it was probably perfected much later by other zergs.
julyzerg's TvZ when he started using stack mutas was monster. the terrans had no idea what was going on, and his mutas would just go in and slaughter marines and scvs like they were bnet noobs. no missile turrets, just marines running around like idiots. so fun to watch.
very interesting article, although i think it would be greatly improved with a section about TvZ history dating back to the boxer vs yellow days. but when i think starcraft, tvz is the classic matchup in my opinion.
What is the oldest VOD available with muta micro? Anyone know? I'd like to watch it. Even if it isn't the first instance of it, I'd still like to see how it was handled in it's infancy.
On June 01 2009 19:23 Zzoram wrote: What is the oldest VOD available with muta micro? Anyone know? I'd like to watch it. Even if it isn't the first instance of it, I'd still like to see how it was handled in it's infancy.
July versus Doggi, group stages of Gillette OSL, was the first game on air that had mutalisk stack micro. July used minerals to keep the mutalisk stacked instead of grouping them with overlords though. He was the only zerg player who was capable of doing such tricks with mutalisks until Shark figured out how to keep them permanently stacked.
Can't seem to find any VODs, but this highlight video has some of the mutalisk stack micro July first showcased in his debut stage. Micro that we take for granted these days were nonexistent back when July was around, and his level of micro really was years ahead of his time. I remember watching all his moves in absolute awe. Those were the days.
On May 29 2009 13:46 Chef wrote: Very cool but I'm confused.
2. December 2006 to March 2007 - Longinus and Reverse Temple, the 1rax cc
Perhaps I'm ignorant, but weren't Terran doing 1rax CC on Rush Hour 3? Maybe Rush Hour 3 was during this time and I'm just getting my chronology screwed up.
On May 29 2009 12:40 SilverSkyLark wrote:Jaedong did Queens, but he was the only one good enought during his time to actually win with that build.
In due time, someone will immortalize Queens.
Ah common. I love Jaedong too, but he only did it once. It's hard to call it a foray into Queen usage when he hasn't tried it again since.
JD didn't use queens just once.
He used them on Fantasy, Hwasin, Firebathero, and Skyhigh.
Holy shit, I don't remember 4 times. Which leagues were these in?
Imho valks are kinda must-do becouse of the mutaharrass, pure m&m+turrets cann't fight against it. I see zergs whining about mech but what if terrans had also stackable air that would do "splash"-damage to both air and ground. I'm sure they wouldn't want to fight with shitty shit-units against it -_-
Could someone please link a VOD of Crazy Zerg play? I think it was before my time that I started watching BW, it seems pretty ballsy and I love ultraz!
On June 02 2009 16:36 MrWinkles wrote: Could someone please link a VOD of Crazy Zerg play? I think it was before my time that I started watching BW, it seems pretty ballsy and I love ultraz!
On May 29 2009 13:46 Chef wrote: Very cool but I'm confused.
2. December 2006 to March 2007 - Longinus and Reverse Temple, the 1rax cc
Perhaps I'm ignorant, but weren't Terran doing 1rax CC on Rush Hour 3? Maybe Rush Hour 3 was during this time and I'm just getting my chronology screwed up.
On May 29 2009 12:40 SilverSkyLark wrote:Jaedong did Queens, but he was the only one good enought during his time to actually win with that build.
In due time, someone will immortalize Queens.
Ah common. I love Jaedong too, but he only did it once. It's hard to call it a foray into Queen usage when he hasn't tried it again since.
JD didn't use queens just once.
He used them on Fantasy, Hwasin, Firebathero, and Skyhigh.
Holy shit, I don't remember 4 times. Which leagues were these in?
This article reminds me of one things I love about the balance in Starcraft: it is highly dependent on map features. Even at the competitive amateur level on ICCUP, statistics clearly show that some maps favor one race over another. SC's racial balance is very close, but as strategies and tactics evolve to an ever more refined level, we see how delicate that balance can be. A map feature that would be seemingly minor in SC's early days -- impassable ground directly behind a mineral line -- has a huge impact on balance.
This gives me hope that SC2 will be as balanced as SC, if only because the community will step up and continually refine the map pool to make it so.
ZvT is obviously imba from what we see in the Graph... it's alot harder for Zerg to win ... that's why when most zerg players face a zerg opponent instead of playing zvz pick terran and go for the easy kill....
TvZ sucks bigtime, it's only nice for terran players... and it's not balanced at all... GG ! :O
This is such a great article that i definitely believe deserves to get bumped again.
it ends with the implication that 1 rax into CC was getting stale, but looking at the current form of TvZ, this build seems to be dominating. Once again, Jaedong managed to pull out an MSL win with a quick ultra build, but still, zergs are having a lot of trouble with Flash's brand of 1 rax into CC.
Id love to see this article continually updated, and if anyone has histories of the other matchups too (although tvz will always be my favorite) I would be very very interested in reading about them.
Though it's an old article I was glad for the bump. Hopefully this should stop the imba screamers. Can't believe that TvZ was almost 30% at one point, lol, I'm guessing that was led by JD and his mutas...
On April 08 2010 01:31 Wings wrote: Though it's an old article I was glad for the bump. Hopefully this should stop the imba screamers. Can't believe that TvZ was almost 30% at one point, lol, I'm guessing that was led by JD and his mutas...
What are you talking about? The graph clearly shows that TvZ - atleast statistically - is imba...
I think one of the biggest developments since this article is Flash's earlier second Rax in the 1 Rax CC build. He uses it to get more marines out than Terrans had with the later 2nd rax.
Against 2 hatch muta, these marines mean that you don't need as many turrets. This is risky, as seen by Flash's quick losses to Hyun, Zero, Calm, and Jaedong in late 2009 when his turret placement isn't perfect.
Against 3 hatch muta, Flash uses the bigger army to deny a 3rd gas. See his games against Jaedong and Savior on Fighting Spirit in late 2009.
2 hatch muta is more popular right now, but I think that's mostly due to the fact that nearly all the top zergs are aggressive to hyper-aggressive. 3 hatch is still used and can work quite well, as seen in Effort and Action's games against Mind in December and January.
On April 08 2010 16:37 jalstar wrote: I think one of the biggest developments since this article is Flash's earlier second Rax in the 1 Rax CC build. He uses it to get more marines out than Terrans had with the later 2nd rax.
Against 2 hatch muta, these marines mean that you don't need as many turrets. This is risky, as seen by Flash's quick losses to Hyun, Zero, Calm, and Jaedong in late 2009 when his turret placement isn't perfect.
Against 3 hatch muta, Flash uses the bigger army to deny a 3rd gas. See his games against Jaedong and Savior on Fighting Spirit in late 2009.
2 hatch muta is more popular right now, but I think that's mostly due to the fact that nearly all the top zergs are aggressive to hyper-aggressive. 3 hatch is still used and can work quite well, as seen in Effort and Action's games against Mind in December and January.
3hatch has had a huge resurgence after the first Jaedong vs Flash MSL, and nowadays 2hatch isn't seen all that much anymore, which is like a complete turnaround from not-too-long-ago where ZvT was 2hatch except for Effort games.
On April 08 2010 16:37 jalstar wrote: I think one of the biggest developments since this article is Flash's earlier second Rax in the 1 Rax CC build. He uses it to get more marines out than Terrans had with the later 2nd rax.
Against 2 hatch muta, these marines mean that you don't need as many turrets. This is risky, as seen by Flash's quick losses to Hyun, Zero, Calm, and Jaedong in late 2009 when his turret placement isn't perfect.
Against 3 hatch muta, Flash uses the bigger army to deny a 3rd gas. See his games against Jaedong and Savior on Fighting Spirit in late 2009.
2 hatch muta is more popular right now, but I think that's mostly due to the fact that nearly all the top zergs are aggressive to hyper-aggressive. 3 hatch is still used and can work quite well, as seen in Effort and Action's games against Mind in December and January.
3hatch has had a huge resurgence after the first Jaedong vs Flash MSL, and nowadays 2hatch isn't seen all that much anymore, which is like a complete turnaround from not-too-long-ago where ZvT was 2hatch except for Effort games.
I'm curious to see if builds that don't save up for the maximum possible mutas (at least, not unless the see signs of high aggression from the Terran) when the spire finishes are viable or not. You could afford significantly more larva, or earlier upgrades/hive.
On April 08 2010 01:31 Wings wrote: Though it's an old article I was glad for the bump. Hopefully this should stop the imba screamers. Can't believe that TvZ was almost 30% at one point, lol, I'm guessing that was led by JD and his mutas...
It was ZvT, not TvZ lol. Other way around dude. No way TvZ is ever going to be that low with all the crazy things they can do to zergs.
On April 08 2010 01:31 Wings wrote: Though it's an old article I was glad for the bump. Hopefully this should stop the imba screamers. Can't believe that TvZ was almost 30% at one point, lol, I'm guessing that was led by JD and his mutas...
It was ZvT, not TvZ lol. Other way around dude. No way TvZ is ever going to be that low with all the crazy things they can do to zergs.
You may want to take another gander at that graph..
On June 01 2009 19:23 Zzoram wrote: What is the oldest VOD available with muta micro? Anyone know? I'd like to watch it. Even if it isn't the first instance of it, I'd still like to see how it was handled in it's infancy.
July versus Doggi, group stages of Gillette OSL, was the first game on air that had mutalisk stack micro. July used minerals to keep the mutalisk stacked instead of grouping them with overlords though. He was the only zerg player who was capable of doing such tricks with mutalisks until Shark figured out how to keep them permanently stacked.
Can't seem to find any VODs, but this highlight video has some of the mutalisk stack micro July first showcased in his debut stage. Micro that we take for granted these days were nonexistent back when July was around, and his level of micro really was years ahead of his time. I remember watching all his moves in absolute awe. Those were the days.
july was performing sick mutalisk micro back in '04, but he was also the person that really made modern stacking known as well. I don't know about the Korean community, but it was this game
that made stacking well known to the foreign scene and it caused at least a couple threads here on tl after it happened
On April 08 2010 16:37 jalstar wrote: I think one of the biggest developments since this article is Flash's earlier second Rax in the 1 Rax CC build. He uses it to get more marines out than Terrans had with the later 2nd rax.
Against 2 hatch muta, these marines mean that you don't need as many turrets. This is risky, as seen by Flash's quick losses to Hyun, Zero, Calm, and Jaedong in late 2009 when his turret placement isn't perfect.
Against 3 hatch muta, Flash uses the bigger army to deny a 3rd gas. See his games against Jaedong and Savior on Fighting Spirit in late 2009.
2 hatch muta is more popular right now, but I think that's mostly due to the fact that nearly all the top zergs are aggressive to hyper-aggressive. 3 hatch is still used and can work quite well, as seen in Effort and Action's games against Mind in December and January.
3hatch has had a huge resurgence after the first Jaedong vs Flash MSL, and nowadays 2hatch isn't seen all that much anymore, which is like a complete turnaround from not-too-long-ago where ZvT was 2hatch except for Effort games.
I dont think the earlier 2nd rax has had as big of an impact in TvZ as the "mass tank late game" first popularized by fantasy vs JD on outsider from SPL finals has had. Pretty much every Terran transitions into many tanks (or even pure mech variants) in the late game now, and then there's the added strategy by flash of just taking half the map and turtling until the zerg has to leave.
Thanks for this bump, as someone who came to follow the starcraft scene somewhat late it was a very informative read. Is there anything like this for other match ups?
On April 08 2010 16:37 jalstar wrote: I think one of the biggest developments since this article is Flash's earlier second Rax in the 1 Rax CC build. He uses it to get more marines out than Terrans had with the later 2nd rax.
Against 2 hatch muta, these marines mean that you don't need as many turrets. This is risky, as seen by Flash's quick losses to Hyun, Zero, Calm, and Jaedong in late 2009 when his turret placement isn't perfect.
Against 3 hatch muta, Flash uses the bigger army to deny a 3rd gas. See his games against Jaedong and Savior on Fighting Spirit in late 2009.
2 hatch muta is more popular right now, but I think that's mostly due to the fact that nearly all the top zergs are aggressive to hyper-aggressive. 3 hatch is still used and can work quite well, as seen in Effort and Action's games against Mind in December and January.
3hatch has had a huge resurgence after the first Jaedong vs Flash MSL, and nowadays 2hatch isn't seen all that much anymore, which is like a complete turnaround from not-too-long-ago where ZvT was 2hatch except for Effort games.
I dont think the earlier 2nd rax has had as big of an impact in TvZ as the "mass tank late game" first popularized by fantasy vs JD on outsider from SPL finals has had. Pretty much every Terran transitions into many tanks (or even pure mech variants) in the late game now, and then there's the added strategy by flash of just taking half the map and turtling until the zerg has to leave.
The fast 2nd rax was definitely a paradigm shift by Flash but he stopped doing it after a while and other Terrans that tried to do the same thing just couldn't (Fantasy, for example). I definitely do agree with you that the late game mass tank transition was more important, particularly in how Flash definitely showed multiple times that by playing in such a way a 4+gas Zerg no longer seems like an unbeatable opponent.
On April 08 2010 01:31 Wings wrote: Though it's an old article I was glad for the bump. Hopefully this should stop the imba screamers. Can't believe that TvZ was almost 30% at one point, lol, I'm guessing that was led by JD and his mutas...
It was ZvT, not TvZ lol. Other way around dude. No way TvZ is ever going to be that low with all the crazy things they can do to zergs.
Nah, when Yarnc and Lux were actually trying and not throwing games, they were pretty damn good at ZvT. For the longest time, they were considered ZvT specialists who knew jack shit about ZvP. But when 2 hatch muta first came out, these two, along with other zergs were using it like mad and Terrans had a tough time adapting. That's when you see something like near 33% win rate for TvZ.
On June 07 2010 14:12 Nuublet wrote: Thanks for this bump, as someone who came to follow the starcraft scene somewhat late it was a very informative read. Is there anything like this for other match ups?
You can probably do a similar one for ZvP, and you'll see that over time zergs have continuously been raping protosses, except for a stretch when FE became popular (Around when Bisu raped Savior). Then after the rising popularity of 5 hatch hydra and whatnot, ZvP went back to being zerg favored.
On June 07 2010 14:12 Nuublet wrote: Thanks for this bump, as someone who came to follow the starcraft scene somewhat late it was a very informative read. Is there anything like this for other match ups?
You can probably do a similar one for ZvP, and you'll see that over time zergs have continuously been raping protosses, except for a stretch when FE became popular (Around when Bisu raped Savior). Then after the rising popularity of 5 hatch hydra and whatnot, ZvP went back to being zerg favored.
There was a TL poll not all that long ago that just had people vote on their favorite matchup to watch. TvZ, as I recall, won by just a bit over ZvP, which were both way ahead of TvP or any of the mirrors (obviously).
I think the reasons for that tend to be the stagnation factor. TvZ I think has proven to be the most dynamic matchup in the game over most of the game's existence, with broad swings in play happening pretty damn frequently. ZvP has obviously seen its share of revolution, but it seems to me that it has happened less frequently than in TvZ. Then of course there is TvP where I don't really know how to define a broad swing. All of the noticable changes in that matchup seem to take the form of "Terran player X figures out how to effectively handle whatever it is Toss players are favoring at the time. Toss throws another dart at the board 'o PvT strategies and history repeats".
Of course Flash is almost unbeatable PvT these days, but does it count as a true shift in strategy if Flash is the only one who can pull it off so consistently?
This was a really neat read. We probably read it 6 years ago, but seeing it again was nice. If there is a more modern version of this, we would be very interested in reading about the history of the mech switch. We started watching way bw way less in 2010 and only started watching it again a few months ago so we mostly missed the mech switch and have been piecing together the history of it by reading small posts of people talking about it.
I don't know much about the pre-Killer-slump-era but the overall winrate in TvZ since has favored Terran. The mech switch has been so successful, that no Zerg right now has any consistent performance to it. I mean, ZerO got like a few weeks of dominance with 3-gas hive before getting trashed again, while EffOrt tried to beat it back a bit with his ultra-defensive 3-hatch muta into 4 gas. Queens have also seen play. But so far there hasn't been any 2-hatch muta, 3-gas lair etc builds that really swung the meta to Zerg favor.
On July 27 2016 13:51 c3rberUs wrote: I don't know much about the pre-Killer-slump-era but the overall winrate in TvZ since has favored Terran. The mech switch has been so successful, that no Zerg right now has any consistent performance to it. I mean, ZerO got like a few weeks of dominance with 3-gas hive before getting trashed again, while EffOrt tried to beat it back a bit with his ultra-defensive 3-hatch muta into 4 gas. Queens have also seen play. But so far there hasn't been any 2-hatch muta, 3-gas lair etc builds that really swung the meta to Zerg favor.
Rumour has it that Jaedong struggled heavily against late-mech too, since it took so much away from his strong suits in the match-up. His win-rate against his teammate Sea was somewhere around 70 to 80 percent, but plummeted to around 50 percent once Sea started getting used to the late-mech meta-game. In fact, I think Flash has been on the record that SoulKey was the superior player against that specific strategy, but even he didn't get anywhere close to dismantling the strategy.
One of the great mysteries is whether the zerg race could come up with an answer against the late-mech strategy had the professional scene not ended, but I'm kind of pessimistic on that issue. Dealing with late-mech effectively essentially forces a zerg to cripple himself against the terran if he just chooses to stick to the bionic army. Sea himself has been on the record that the strategy is "broken", and I'm of the opinion that the zerg just has to play better than the terran, both in terms of raw execution and mind game to overcome his opponent (even more so than the past when it was already an advantageous match-up for the terran race), rather than having a go-to "answer".
On July 27 2016 13:51 c3rberUs wrote: I don't know much about the pre-Killer-slump-era but the overall winrate in TvZ since has favored Terran. The mech switch has been so successful, that no Zerg right now has any consistent performance to it. I mean, ZerO got like a few weeks of dominance with 3-gas hive before getting trashed again, while EffOrt tried to beat it back a bit with his ultra-defensive 3-hatch muta into 4 gas. Queens have also seen play. But so far there hasn't been any 2-hatch muta, 3-gas lair etc builds that really swung the meta to Zerg favor.
Rumour has it that Jaedong struggled heavily against late-mech too, since it took so much away from his strong suits in the match-up. His win-rate against his teammate Sea was somewhere around 70 to 80 percent, but plummeted to around 50 percent once Sea started getting used to the late-mech meta-game. In fact, I think Flash has been on the record that SoulKey was the superior player against that specific strategy, but even he didn't get anywhere close to dismantling the strategy.
One of the great mysteries is whether the zerg race could come up with an answer against the late-mech strategy had the professional scene not ended, but I'm kind of pessimistic on that issue. Dealing with late-mech effectively essentially forces a zerg to cripple himself against the terran if he just chooses to stick to the bionic army. Sea himself has been on the record that the strategy is "broken", and I'm of the opinion that the zerg just has to play better than the terran, both in terms of raw execution and mind game to overcome his opponent (even more so than the past when it was already an advantageous match-up for the terran race), rather than having a go-to "answer".
I think over time Zerg will figure it out, maybe through brute mechanics. Same happened when zerg dominated through superior muta micro. Otherwise mapmakers should introduce maps which are not so friendly for mech, but this may make pvt imbalance. IMO one reason why it is so terran favored in lategame is because zerg is less cost efficient and a split map scenario will always favor the terran. a 3 player map may balance it back to zergs favor since usually zerg takes the third base. I don't think that terran mech transition will work on rush hour that well for that reason.
Maybe zerg may need to go for oldschool hydra guardian style what sigamari vs goodfriend did on arkadia? Guardians can cost effectively snipe tanks as compared to brute ling ultra swarm, and terran needs to spend on anti air which takes away alot from the scaryness of tanks. In case terran kills off all guardians, zerg can just remax on ling + ultra again. Using guardians is easier than queens, and less risky IMO.
I will try out this style more when I get a shield battery invite
I think one of the main problems is that the transition to mech is done at a period where a zerg is teching/expanding which makes it very safe. I saw ZerO striking early in a few games with success but terrans adapted quickly. Maybe it's all the FS/CB that's being played. I'll certainly look at that sigamari vs GoodFriend game.
I wonder how much we can factor Jaedong being in a slump back when he was in Team 8 with Sea? Or how much better Soulkey would have been against late mech had KeSPA stayed...
Ok here's the problem with the match-up in general that goes beyond the invention of the late mech switch that fucked the match-up beyond repair in my personal opinion.
Iloveoov first fucks up the balance with his early expansion build, and then exploits the hell out of it. sAviOr evens out the match-up with his greatest gift to the zerg race, his famous three hatch build. With the progression of the mutalisk and defiler usage, top terrans struggle against top zergs unless they have a gay unbalanced map.
Iloveoov tries out his mechanic build through his protege, FanTaSy. Zerg struggles against it, but realizes that sAviOr's build was designed mainly for bionic play, goes through a different optimization by going armour heavy mutalisks and attack heavy ground troops. Iloveoov's experimentation with mech ultimately becomes more of a cheese that exploits brainless zergs who try to mutalisk micro their way out of trouble.
Now here's the fucked up part. FanTaSy introduces late-mech switch, the early expansion into 1+ attack to pressure the zerg, and delays the zerg's fourth gas with the threat of bionic troops. The zerg has to go for armour heavy upgrades in order to survive the early game, and can't transition for mechanic play before the terran shows his transition to mech (as in optimization), because if the terran goes through with SK terran his preemptive optimization against late mech will be his demise.
So terran is free to transition to mech while zerg secures his fourth gas, under threat of sticking SK terran to keep the zerg honest, and now can split the map in half. The zerg has the wrong composition, as well as the wrong kind of upgrades (ground armour instead of attack, and no air upgrades), so the terran's transition kicks in at the same time as the zerg, who cannot wise up due to the gayness of terran scans (as in any signs of early adaptation like multiple chambers, overlord upgrade, will prompt the terran to SK terran your ass to death), and now we have minimal amount of resources to fight for, and unless the terran screws up, he can and will split the map in half.
The only way to win is to play better, and it is universally accepted that optimal late game zerg play versus mech terran is the most mechanically intensive thing in the game. The unit composition is the most complex, and I have yet to see any evidence that mastery of late game zerg to the level of other styles of play (say, late game arbiter play) versus a well played late mech terran is actually feasible with human APM limitations. Removing mines with the optimal number of lings, while dropping units from overlords instead of drag attack moving, having the correct defiler swarm placement, using multiple queens quickly and unexpectidly so they don't get EMP'd, having good macro from multiple hatcheries, and all the while making good decisions whilst doing all this, and after all this being rewarded with enough surplus gas to end the game with mass ultralisks or other gas intensive hive units seems way too demanding, even for mechanical beasts like Jaedong.
It's just broken, and the only method to balance the match-up is to lessen the threat of bionic play to give zergs a little more room to optimize versus the mech switch in my opinion. However, things like mineral count, size of the natural choke are heavily linked to zerg versus protoss balance, so it is really hard to balance both match-ups correctly for the zerg race. Three player maps can solve this issue, but I think it then goes to far to the other side, as in it solves the zerg versus terran balance at the cost of terrans getting their heads kicked in by protoss. I think Starcraft has gotten to the stage where one map being balanced for all the match-ups may be a dream.
Ah man, I've been theorizing stuff for modifying both PvZ and ZvT for a long time and I always get stumped because the solutions I think of always make the other matchup broken.
It feels almost impossible to see someone reach that mechanical level that's needed to consistently beat late mech. Maybe if someone can invent tactics that can reach at least 80% of that level...
On July 27 2016 22:30 c3rberUs wrote: Ah man, I've been theorizing stuff for modifying both PvZ and ZvT for a long time and I always get stumped because the solutions I think of always make the other matchup broken.
It feels almost impossible to see someone reach that mechanical level that's needed to consistently beat late mech. Maybe if someone can invent tactics that can reach at least 80% of that level...
the best solution is upgrade consume for queens ^^
On July 27 2016 23:10 duke91 wrote: If only Iloveoov played zerg.... fuck boxer his legacy still last now and fucks up zerg.
Who was the zerg equivalent to iloveoov? Calm? Great?
sAviOr. Both arrogant assholes who toyed with their opponents for about a year and a half after coming up with game changing metagames, then fell into relative mediocrity after the rest of the field caught up to their meta-game. I'd say that Calm played mind games and smart one-off strategies rather than making astonishing meta-games that would shift the game as a whole.
What's the answer to both? Guardians (and to a lesser extent hydralisks and lurkers).
In my noob opinion I think saving mutas and morphing them into guardians will be key. Like other people have explained, zerg is teching up and getting a solid economy while terran is switching to mech and expanding behind map control based mainly on Marine/Medic/Vessel/some tanks and early(ier) mines.
A group of guardians could be used to attack the third and/or prevent the 4th (new main) from terran. Often terran players only have a group of marine medic to defend their 4th before the factories at this location go up. At this moment terrans tend to have a lot of vultures with mines that prevent ground attacks but will do nothing against guardians. They also only have 1 starport with a couple of vessels (any additional gas has gone into vulture upgrades, armory and extra factories).
Then I think zerg's will have to incorportate hydralisks to clean up large mine fields and to actually be able to kill a CC instead of just forcing it to lift. Hydralisks will allow us to expand easier to a 5th and 6th by preventing a single group of vultures from precluding this. The lack of vessels can be abused by lurkers under dark swarm, to defend key positions with minimal costs. Queens are solid but only in the latest stages of the game to lift up sieges and to effectively break a position like the 4th/5th that's defended by too many tanks, mines and turrets.
We as zergs need to abuse the fact that terrans don't have effective anti-air (when they're switching) and don't spend a lot of gas on vessels. We need to use units that can clean up mine fields rapidly and cost-efficiently, which is in my opinion the hydralisk as zerglings are only useful if there are no vultures nearby.
Drops aren't that useful because they are very expensive for the zerg and can't be rushed. A lot of terrans also have walls of turrets ready at their 4th while dropping at a third most often is to conspicuous.
On July 28 2016 00:24 B-royal wrote: What does a late mech switch lack?
- vessels - solid anti-air
What does mech have a lot? Mines and tanks.
What's the answer to both? Guardians (and to a lesser extent hydralisks and lurkers).
In my noob opinion I think saving mutas and morphing them into guardians will be key. Like other people have explained, zerg is teching up and getting a solid economy while terran is switching to mech and expanding behind map control based mainly on Marine/Medic/Vessel/some tanks and early(ier) mines.
A group of guardians could be used to attack the third and/or prevent the 4th (new main) from terran. Often terran players only have a group of marine medic to defend their 4th before the factories at this location go up. At this moment terrans tend to have a lot of vultures with mines that prevent ground attacks but will do nothing against guardians. They also only have 1 starport with a couple of vessels (any additional gas has gone into vulture upgrades, armory and extra factories).
Then I think zerg's will have to incorportate hydralisks to clean up large mine fields and to actually be able to kill a CC instead of just forcing it to lift. Hydralisks will allow us to expand easier to a 5th and 6th by preventing a single group of vultures from precluding this. The lack of vessels can be abused by lurkers under dark swarm, to defend key positions with minimal costs. Queens are solid but only in the latest stages of the game to lift up sieges and to effectively break a position like the 4th/5th that's defended by too many tanks, mines and turrets.
We as zergs need to abuse the fact that terrans don't have effective anti-air (when they're switching) and don't spend a lot of gas on vessels. We need to use units that can clean up mine fields rapidly and cost-efficiently, which is in my opinion the hydralisk as zerglings are only useful if there are no vultures nearby.
Drops aren't that useful because they are very expensive for the zerg and can't be rushed. A lot of terrans also have walls of turrets ready at their 4th while dropping at a third most often is to conspicuous.
From the Jaedong thread that I'm arguing for guardians, Modesty shows us that guardians have viable builds and can be extremely successful.
Effort has been playing with guardians and even mutalisk switches since he came back with some success, but it seems it's not universal. Last also uses 2port into mech sometimes
There's a huge difference between catching people off guard, and having a go-to strategy that will work despite the fact people know it's coming. The most annoying thing about late-mech is that it has no clear weaknesses even though everyone is trying their hardest to overcome it.
The use of zerg air units has always fucked up the mech composition if the terran starts out with mech, even if the terran knows in advance that it is coming. However, with late-mech, it's much more of a gamble, and it kind of depends on the terran fucking up, as any good terran will make mince meat out of the air transition if they know it's coming in advance. The use of efficient drops with basic units to store up the gas to transition into the do-or-die ultralisk push before the terran mech upgrades kick in, is probably the best method, and works to a degree even though terrans know it's coming in advance.
That's the solution we're looking for here. Shit that works, and not depending on your opponent being caught with their pants down. Stuff like fast command centre into 1+ attack upgrade doesn't work because the zerg didn't expect the greedy build, it works because zergs find it hard to punish its greed, and has been best countered with the three hatchery play. We're looking for safe, sound counters for the late-mech, and I don't think the use of air units is necessarily the answer because it's not an efficient use of gas like it is against traditional mech, and can be countered extremely easily if the terrans are wise to it. Yes, it can work, and zergs should look for timing windows for a surprise air switch to keep the terrans honest, but I don't think it works as the bread and butter style of play that counters late mech.
I'm not claiming to be very knowledgeable but hear me out.
Around 12 minutes in the game is when the mech switch starts to fully flesh out, vultures have both upgrades and terran has invested in an armory and into getting extra factories. Let's assume terran went for 1 starport only. At this point terran has 2-3 vessels maximally. He's taking his close third and most likely a 4th at another main.
Zerg should be in the process of getting his 4th gas.
Now how can zerg possibly put any efficient pressure on the terran? Vultures and spider mines are really good at preventing ground attacks. A group of marine medic can protect the 4th from any mutalisk threat.
I propose this:
1. Zerg scouts how many starports terran has during the mutalisk phase, if only 1 proceed to next step. 2. Zerg tries to conserve his mutalisks as much as possible. 3. Zerg morphs a greater spire around 10-11 minutes.
Now there is a threat of guardians, either terran scouts it or he doesn't. Let's say he doesn't scout it.
4. Zerg morphs guardians over a cliff to either attack the third or 4th of the terran. Zerg has scourge nearby to prevent wraiths and vessels from killing them. Most likely terran only has a control group of marine medic at this position and possibly a lot of vulture mines to prevent ground attacks.
5. This delays terran's 4th gas and forces out more vessels and goliaths, which means less tanks.
Now let's assume terran scouts the greater spire and he prepares by any of the next measures:
- more vessels - goliaths - wraiths
Zerg should try to scout this and now he doesn't morph any guardians. Terran has spent resources trying to defend against an attack that never came. There are now less tanks on the field.
I understand it's pure theorycrafting and I might be misunderstanding what terran can do against this. But that's why I'm here, to get educated. Right now, I still believe zerg's should experiment with this to try to delay terran's expansions. I just don't think an ultralisk "all-in" or having to end the game before a certain period of time sounds very fun at all. Brood war is supposed to be the ultimate game, where any opponent can win late game by being the better player and having better mechanics.
On July 29 2016 06:49 B-royal wrote: I'm not claiming to be very knowledgeable but hear me out.
Around 12 minutes in the game is when the mech switch starts to fully flesh out, vultures have both upgrades and terran has invested in an armory and into getting extra factories. Let's assume terran went for 1 starport only. At this point terran has 2-3 vessels maximally. He's taking his close third and most likely a 4th at another main.
Zerg should be in the process of getting his 4th gas.
Now how can zerg possibly put any efficient pressure on the terran? Vultures and spider mines are really good at preventing ground attacks. A group of marine medic can protect the 4th from any mutalisk threat.
I propose this:
1. Zerg scouts how many starports terran has during the mutalisk phase, if only 1 proceed to next step. 2. Zerg tries to conserve his mutalisks as much as possible. 3. Zerg morphs a greater spire around 10-11 minutes.
Now there is a threat of guardians, either terran scouts it or he doesn't. Let's say he doesn't scout it.
4. Zerg morphs guardians over a cliff to either attack the third or 4th of the terran. Zerg has scourge nearby to prevent wraiths and vessels from killing them. Most likely terran only has a control group of marine medic at this position and possibly a lot of vulture mines to prevent ground attacks.
5. This delays terran's 4th gas and forces out more vessels and goliaths, which means less tanks.
Now let's assume terran scouts the greater spire and he prepares by any of the next measures:
- more vessels - goliaths - wraiths
Zerg should try to scout this and now he doesn't morph any guardians. Terran has spent resources trying to defend against an attack that never came. There are now less tanks on the field.
I understand it's pure theorycrafting and I might be misunderstanding what terran can do against this. But that's why I'm here, to get educated. Right now, I still believe zerg's should experiment with this to try to delay terran's expansions. I just don't think an ultralisk "all-in" or having to end the game before a certain period of time sounds very fun at all. Brood war is supposed to be the ultimate game, where any opponent can win late game by being the better player and having better mechanics.
I agree on principle that the use of greater spire can be utilized to a great extent if terran lacks the ability to map hack with scanners. I've heard Flash discuss with Mong about EffOrt's frequent use of guardians, and said it's of the utmost importance to keep checking the timing of the zerg's greater spire, and the need to make wraiths accordingly, and that even if the zerg just "fakes" the greater spire transition without actually committing to guardians, the preemptive production cost and the cost of upgrading to greater spire more or less evens out. The terran can just keep checking the zerg's composition from multiple scans, and have cost efficient answers for it, and guardians become cost inefficient if the terran prepares properly for it in advance.
I think the use of guardians against late-mech is mainly for punishing negligent terran players, and a way to keep diligent terran players honest, but not really the answer that would work every single time against strategically sound terran players.
On July 29 2016 06:49 B-royal wrote: I'm not claiming to be very knowledgeable but hear me out.
Around 12 minutes in the game is when the mech switch starts to fully flesh out, vultures have both upgrades and terran has invested in an armory and into getting extra factories. Let's assume terran went for 1 starport only. At this point terran has 2-3 vessels maximally. He's taking his close third and most likely a 4th at another main.
Zerg should be in the process of getting his 4th gas.
Now how can zerg possibly put any efficient pressure on the terran? Vultures and spider mines are really good at preventing ground attacks. A group of marine medic can protect the 4th from any mutalisk threat.
I propose this:
1. Zerg scouts how many starports terran has during the mutalisk phase, if only 1 proceed to next step. 2. Zerg tries to conserve his mutalisks as much as possible. 3. Zerg morphs a greater spire around 10-11 minutes.
Now there is a threat of guardians, either terran scouts it or he doesn't. Let's say he doesn't scout it.
4. Zerg morphs guardians over a cliff to either attack the third or 4th of the terran. Zerg has scourge nearby to prevent wraiths and vessels from killing them. Most likely terran only has a control group of marine medic at this position and possibly a lot of vulture mines to prevent ground attacks.
5. This delays terran's 4th gas and forces out more vessels and goliaths, which means less tanks.
Now let's assume terran scouts the greater spire and he prepares by any of the next measures:
- more vessels - goliaths - wraiths
Zerg should try to scout this and now he doesn't morph any guardians. Terran has spent resources trying to defend against an attack that never came. There are now less tanks on the field.
I understand it's pure theorycrafting and I might be misunderstanding what terran can do against this. But that's why I'm here, to get educated. Right now, I still believe zerg's should experiment with this to try to delay terran's expansions. I just don't think an ultralisk "all-in" or having to end the game before a certain period of time sounds very fun at all. Brood war is supposed to be the ultimate game, where any opponent can win late game by being the better player and having better mechanics.
Watch this game
Ver even did a writeup on it which saves me the trouble.
I thought this recent game of Mong vs Hero (starts at 1:44:05) was a good example of how to play against mech. Drops at the 4th and main to constantly disrupt the Terran economy. If the Zerg just lets Terran set up 5 bases with no contest it's just an uphill battle from there. Even if Terran knows you are going for drops he can't possibly cover all his bases, macro and lay mines everywhere at the same time. Understand that the overlord upgrades are expensive, but Zerg needs to get them sooner or later anyway.
On July 29 2016 06:49 B-royal wrote: I'm not claiming to be very knowledgeable but hear me out.
Around 12 minutes in the game is when the mech switch starts to fully flesh out, vultures have both upgrades and terran has invested in an armory and into getting extra factories. Let's assume terran went for 1 starport only. At this point terran has 2-3 vessels maximally. He's taking his close third and most likely a 4th at another main.
Zerg should be in the process of getting his 4th gas.
Now how can zerg possibly put any efficient pressure on the terran? Vultures and spider mines are really good at preventing ground attacks. A group of marine medic can protect the 4th from any mutalisk threat.
I propose this:
1. Zerg scouts how many starports terran has during the mutalisk phase, if only 1 proceed to next step. 2. Zerg tries to conserve his mutalisks as much as possible. 3. Zerg morphs a greater spire around 10-11 minutes.
Now there is a threat of guardians, either terran scouts it or he doesn't. Let's say he doesn't scout it.
4. Zerg morphs guardians over a cliff to either attack the third or 4th of the terran. Zerg has scourge nearby to prevent wraiths and vessels from killing them. Most likely terran only has a control group of marine medic at this position and possibly a lot of vulture mines to prevent ground attacks.
5. This delays terran's 4th gas and forces out more vessels and goliaths, which means less tanks.
Now let's assume terran scouts the greater spire and he prepares by any of the next measures:
- more vessels - goliaths - wraiths
Zerg should try to scout this and now he doesn't morph any guardians. Terran has spent resources trying to defend against an attack that never came. There are now less tanks on the field.
I understand it's pure theorycrafting and I might be misunderstanding what terran can do against this. But that's why I'm here, to get educated. Right now, I still believe zerg's should experiment with this to try to delay terran's expansions. I just don't think an ultralisk "all-in" or having to end the game before a certain period of time sounds very fun at all. Brood war is supposed to be the ultimate game, where any opponent can win late game by being the better player and having better mechanics.
This just doesnt seem to work in pro scene. Pros will just constantly make MnM to fend off guardians. Additionally, its extremely hard to conserve mutas up until late mech starts rolling in because terrans are so good at trying to reduce number of mutas while they are aiming for zerg's third. 4/5 barrack +1 weapon is op as hell because of that. Flash mentioned that best thing a zerg can do vs late mech is to get a third without losing huge economic resources such as pumping 20-30+ lings. Flash said that jaedong did this beautifully and also wrecked terran's economy by devastating 20-30 marines with insane muta control with some lings. So jaedong always started out ahead like 6:4 because by doing this jaedong can take 4th extremely fast and get ultras really quickly. Flash also mentions that guardians/muta switch are HORRIBLE.
On July 29 2016 06:49 B-royal wrote: I'm not claiming to be very knowledgeable but hear me out.
Around 12 minutes in the game is when the mech switch starts to fully flesh out, vultures have both upgrades and terran has invested in an armory and into getting extra factories. Let's assume terran went for 1 starport only. At this point terran has 2-3 vessels maximally. He's taking his close third and most likely a 4th at another main.
Zerg should be in the process of getting his 4th gas.
Now how can zerg possibly put any efficient pressure on the terran? Vultures and spider mines are really good at preventing ground attacks. A group of marine medic can protect the 4th from any mutalisk threat.
I propose this:
1. Zerg scouts how many starports terran has during the mutalisk phase, if only 1 proceed to next step. 2. Zerg tries to conserve his mutalisks as much as possible. 3. Zerg morphs a greater spire around 10-11 minutes.
Now there is a threat of guardians, either terran scouts it or he doesn't. Let's say he doesn't scout it.
4. Zerg morphs guardians over a cliff to either attack the third or 4th of the terran. Zerg has scourge nearby to prevent wraiths and vessels from killing them. Most likely terran only has a control group of marine medic at this position and possibly a lot of vulture mines to prevent ground attacks.
5. This delays terran's 4th gas and forces out more vessels and goliaths, which means less tanks.
Now let's assume terran scouts the greater spire and he prepares by any of the next measures:
- more vessels - goliaths - wraiths
Zerg should try to scout this and now he doesn't morph any guardians. Terran has spent resources trying to defend against an attack that never came. There are now less tanks on the field.
I understand it's pure theorycrafting and I might be misunderstanding what terran can do against this. But that's why I'm here, to get educated. Right now, I still believe zerg's should experiment with this to try to delay terran's expansions. I just don't think an ultralisk "all-in" or having to end the game before a certain period of time sounds very fun at all. Brood war is supposed to be the ultimate game, where any opponent can win late game by being the better player and having better mechanics.
so pretty much a zerg player needs to be better than terran player in skills/apm/eapm/physicality/etc to beat him. It requires zergs to do much more than terran
Late game Mutalisk/Guardian switch sounds like a bad idea when Terran already has Science Vessels. Mutalisk without upgrade can't do anything once Terran gets enough Goliaths and Guardians are far too slow and too weak against Vessels.
How about crazy zerg? Midgame becomes riskier, but you have a much stronger footing in lategame. You force terran to build more rax instead so that they can hold this
On August 01 2016 06:28 duke91 wrote: How about crazy zerg? Midgame becomes riskier, but you have a much stronger footing in lategame. You force terran to build more rax instead so that they can hold this
To terrans, crazy zerg seems a "thank you for doing this prehistoric build" I can just build 11 barracks and pummel you to death and make you never build a 4th."
On August 01 2016 06:28 duke91 wrote: How about crazy zerg? Midgame becomes riskier, but you have a much stronger footing in lategame. You force terran to build more rax instead so that they can hold this
To terrans, crazy zerg seems a "thank you for doing this prehistoric build" I can just build 11 barracks and pummel you to death and make you never build a 4th."
Well then good luck dealing with swarm then. If terran goes for 11 rax, you just swarm infinitely and terran can never break your 4th. You have to go mech and with crazy zerg you at least get map control + possible timing to break terran. Either way, you have the opportunity to get ahead
On August 01 2016 06:28 duke91 wrote: How about crazy zerg? Midgame becomes riskier, but you have a much stronger footing in lategame. You force terran to build more rax instead so that they can hold this
To terrans, crazy zerg seems a "thank you for doing this prehistoric build" I can just build 11 barracks and pummel you to death and make you never build a 4th."
Well then good luck dealing with swarm then. If terran goes for 11 rax, you just swarm infinitely and terran can never break your 4th. You have to go mech and with crazy zerg you at least get map control + possible timing to break terran. Either way, you have the opportunity to get ahead
lol there's a reason why zergs never go crazy zergs. Look at match ups from feb to july, they always goin 3 hat muta 99% Of the time and 1% of the time 2 hat muta. Come on man you guys know this better.
You don't know crazy zerg works with 3 hatch muta, right? Actually it is only viable with 3 hatch since you need some eco to pull this off. Crazy zerg is to go standard 3 hatch muta ling, rush carapace and ignore lurkers. examples pure crazyzerg
crazyzerg with guardians
They never go crazy zerg because it is risky mid game to secure 3rd or 4th. However it may force terran to not go mechswitch since any switch would be costly in that it wouldn't secure a third, or simply die to a timing attack due to lack of m&m
Also don't just dismiss my proposal as stupid if all we do is theorycraft.
EPT![[image loading]](http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/4422/images/TL/history%20of%20tvz/TvsZ1.jpg)
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Best match up by far!
n I LOVE 
