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konadora
Singapore66357 Posts
On May 15 2009 21:15 scwizard wrote:Very interesting find. This is one of the reasons I like Jaedong and dislike flash, it's much more interesting to watch Jaedong. I was going to rant here about what a terrible player Flash was, but I shouldn't go derailing threads. Show nested quote +On May 15 2009 18:53 hideo wrote:
You notice it within games too... he's losing, then he just turns the whole thing around. Yeah, that's extremely fun to watch. It's like "wow, what enormous preasure, I'm not sure if Jaedong can take this" and then suddenly dropdropdropdropswarmdropswarm mutas out of NOWHERE, god mode activated an attack from three sides simultaneously.
Flash? Terrible?
You must be joking.
Rant as much as you want, I can probably find a valid counter-argument for every single one of your points.
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On May 15 2009 21:17 Smix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2009 21:15 scwizard wrote:
Very interesting find.
This is one of the reasons I like Jaedong and dislike flash, it's much more interesting to watch Jaedong.
I was going to rant here about what a terrible player Flash was, but I shouldn't go derailing threads. No, please explain. Just how is Flash a terrible player?
If you look at his stats, he loses to good players more frequently than other top players do. The only reason his stats are good is because he can consistently beat players a class below him.
Also he doesn't perform well under pressure and can be inflexible at crucial moments.
Also I'm an antifan.
EDIT: Obviously Flash isn't terrible. He's a top player. By saying "rant about how terrible he is" I didn't mean he was terrible, I meant that the initial rant that I almost posted, was illogical etc.
Also the thing about the stats really only applies to recentish games. I would imagine that back in the last Bacchus OSL he was a better player than he is now.
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JD Hwaiting !!
I think JD vs Bisu in a rematch/showmatch again would be blockbuster !!
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I'd like to see Jaedong and Bisu play a best of 7.
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3 Lions
United States3705 Posts
On May 15 2009 21:25 scwizard wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2009 21:17 Smix wrote:On May 15 2009 21:15 scwizard wrote:
Very interesting find.
This is one of the reasons I like Jaedong and dislike flash, it's much more interesting to watch Jaedong.
I was going to rant here about what a terrible player Flash was, but I shouldn't go derailing threads. No, please explain. Just how is Flash a terrible player? If you look at his stats, he loses to good players more frequently than other top players do. The only reason his stats are good is because he can consistently beat players a class below him. Also he doesn't perform well under pressure and can be inflexible at crucial moments. Also I'm an antifan. EDIT: Obviously Flash isn't terrible. He's a top player. By saying "rant about how terrible he is" I didn't mean he was terrible, I meant that the initial rant that I almost posted, was illogical etc.
I'll refute your second point first, saying that Flash doesn't perform well under pressure.
Look at the Bacchus OSL Finals, Semifinals, and Quarterfinals. Flash encountered the only three players in the world that could be comparable to him, and he beat them all. Look at GSI. Flash took down probably the number 1 PvT in the world at that time in a Bo5 series and his first final. Flash is young, but his mindset is strong enough and I don't think he's affected much by nerves.
Now, I looked at Flash's game list and singled out his last games against A/S class players...
+ Show Spoiler +*Newest to oldest
vs Effort L
vs Skyhigh W
vs Hiya L
vs Skyhigh L
vs Fantasy L
vs Yellow[arnc] W
vs Leta W
vs Light W
vs Leta L
vs Leta L
vs Best L
vs Upmagic L
vs Really W
vs hyvaa W
vs Hwasin W
vs Leta W
vs Kal W
vs Hwasin W
vs Jaedong W
vs Hiya W
12-8 against A/S class players, 60%. I dare say that that's better than everybody that was just listed except Jaedong, Leta, Fantasy, and maybe Skyhigh (too lazy to check right now)
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On May 15 2009 21:38 3 Lions wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2009 21:25 scwizard wrote:On May 15 2009 21:17 Smix wrote:On May 15 2009 21:15 scwizard wrote:
Very interesting find.
This is one of the reasons I like Jaedong and dislike flash, it's much more interesting to watch Jaedong.
I was going to rant here about what a terrible player Flash was, but I shouldn't go derailing threads. No, please explain. Just how is Flash a terrible player? If you look at his stats, he loses to good players more frequently than other top players do. The only reason his stats are good is because he can consistently beat players a class below him. Also he doesn't perform well under pressure and can be inflexible at crucial moments. Also I'm an antifan. EDIT: Obviously Flash isn't terrible. He's a top player. By saying "rant about how terrible he is" I didn't mean he was terrible, I meant that the initial rant that I almost posted, was illogical etc. I'll refute your second point first, saying that Flash doesn't perform well under pressure. Look at the Bacchus OSL Finals, Semifinals, and Quarterfinals. Flash encountered the only three players in the world that could be comparable to him, and he beat them all. Look at GSI. Flash took down probably the number 1 PvT in the world at that time in a Bo5 series and his first final. Flash is young, but his mindset is strong enough and I don't think he's affected much by nerves. Now, I looked at Flash's game list and singled out his last games against A/S class players... + Show Spoiler +*Newest to oldest
vs Effort L
vs Skyhigh W
vs Hiya L
vs Skyhigh L
vs Fantasy L
vs Yellow[arnc] W
vs Leta W
vs Light W
vs Leta L
vs Leta L
vs Best L
vs Upmagic L
vs Really W
vs hyvaa W
vs Hwasin W
vs Leta W
vs Kal W
vs Hwasin W
vs Jaedong W
vs Hiya W
12-8 against A/S class players, 60%. I dare say that that's better than everybody that was just listed except Jaedong, Leta, Fantasy, and maybe Skyhigh (too lazy to check right now)
FYI, both Leta and Fantasy cheesed Flash, that is good telling of who the superior player is doesnt it? Who believes in his skill set the most.
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konadora
Singapore66357 Posts
On May 15 2009 21:25 scwizard wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2009 21:17 Smix wrote:On May 15 2009 21:15 scwizard wrote:
Very interesting find.
This is one of the reasons I like Jaedong and dislike flash, it's much more interesting to watch Jaedong.
I was going to rant here about what a terrible player Flash was, but I shouldn't go derailing threads. No, please explain. Just how is Flash a terrible player? If you look at his stats, he loses to good players more frequently than other top players do. The only reason his stats are good is because he can consistently beat players a class below him.
Effort, Skyhigh, Jaedong and Fantasy (I'm not counting that shit that happened on Battle Royal). I don't think these guys are pushovers, winning these guys are pretty amazing. Let's look at Jaedong's 5 recent losses - Hyvaa, Ganzi, Movie x2 and Fantasy. Name value-wise, they are pretty even except for Ganzi and Movie x2. So that makes Jaedong (according to your logic) worse, no?
On May 15 2009 21:25 scwizard wrote:
Also he doesn't perform well under pressure and can be inflexible at crucial moments.
This trait is something very exceptionally strong people have (Jaedong, Bisu, Savior in his prime, etc). Being inflexible and breaking down sometimes under pressure does not equate to 'being a terrible player'. Besides, Flash hardly broke down under pressure, his loss against Effort was due to Effort's great play, while his loss against Jaedong was simply because Jaedong played better.
God damn, then if Flash lost a game or two because of some pressure, then the rest of the 'non-A/S class' should quit progaming huh?
On May 15 2009 21:25 scwizard wrote:
Also I'm an antifan.
Confirmation bias moar
On May 15 2009 21:25 scwizard wrote:
EDIT: Obviously Flash isn't terrible. He's a top player. By saying "rant about how terrible he is" I didn't mean he was terrible, I meant that the initial rant that I almost posted, was illogical etc.
Oh yeah, I'm pretty sure the rest of TL didn't think so.
On May 15 2009 21:25 scwizard wrote:
Also the thing about the stats really only applies to recentish games. I would imagine that back in the last Bacchus OSL he was a better player than he is now.
Statistics are the most deceiving lies ever. Did you even watch these guys play?
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On May 15 2009 06:05 Vasoline73 wrote:
I don't really think losing the first match and then 3-0ing someone in the next 3 matches really counts as a real comeback or anything -_-. Just my opinion.
OSL Finals was definitely a sick comeback though and Jaedong obviously can be the most clutch player in SC. I don't think anyone denies it.
It kind of is, though, because winning the first game of a BoX is a huge statistical indicator of winning the series. Its actually quite rare for the person who wins the first game to lose the series.
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Well its something I always kind of suspected but is always nice to have it on stats so thanks. He may not have the best mechanics (not that they are bad ofcourse), but he has the strongets mental strenght of the pro players.
He has never had a long term slump like almost every other pro players out there. And thats another reason I think he will take at least 3 more starL titles excluding Gom Tv.
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On May 15 2009 04:31 Shikyo wrote:
GOMTV MSL Season 4 was where he showed his best comeback skills, imo.
That MSL was tough as hell , but Jaedong was calss a above all then .
I wonder whats July and Savior's match winning percentage ?
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Jaedong is well known for making comebacks, although i think his win percentage would probably be 99% if he'd just win the first game.
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On May 15 2009 21:25 scwizard wrote:
I would imagine that back in the last Bacchus OSL he was a better player than he is now.
Are you actually telling us you haven't seen the kid play and you still think he's terrible?
Back around Bacchus time he was invincible. You couldn't cheese him, you couldn't rush him, you couldn't trick him, and if the game went past 15 minutes you were absolutely fucked no matter what you did. Trying to harass him was like flushing your APM down the toilet, it was so pointless. Flash just said "fuck you" to map balance as well --- if he didn't like how the map played, he'd either make a build that worked or just BBS and win. That's why he was able to go through Jaedong, Bisu and Stork to earn his title, on crazy maps like Troy and Katrina.
Now it just so happens that a few people have caught up with his macro and adapted to his methods --- see Bisu vs Flash in GOM S2. That doesn't mean he isn't still one of the scariest players around, and it sure as hell doesn't mean he's terrible now. We all know it's just a matter of time before he goes into godmode again and just rips another individual league to shreds.
~~~~~~~~~~
Edit: hey, this thread is about Jaedong not Flash. Thanks for the stats. I think this is what I like best about Jaedong. I like how he gets angry and charged up. Watching him own ZvZ's over and over again in proleague is fun, but the really great part is watching him play in a series, where by the deciding game he always has this expression like he's ready to kill the guy in the other booth with his bare hands.
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On May 15 2009 04:55 Orbifold wrote:
Jaedong has the heart of a champion. I remember Super Daniel man telling a story about an interview he did with Jaedong:
SDM: Jaedong, when you have to play other top players like Flash and Bisu do you ever get scared before or during the game?
JD: What's the point?
Total baddass.
Other than the fact that JD said he was nervous as shit during the OSL finals against Fantasy.
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Yeah, about being in the OSL finals, not about facing fantasy.
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On May 15 2009 04:35 Nick_54 wrote:
What about against Flash in Bacchus and ForGG in Arena? I remember him losing the first game there, what happened?
Yeah Jaedong sucks for not having won every series he's ever played.
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Soooo much fanboyism in the OP, and I love it.
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At first I thought the OP meant that inside each game it was a comeback, and I was like, "Wtf, OP actually sat down and watched every single JD game to make this?" , Then I thought, "Who is to say what exactly defines a comeback anyways". Then I read the thread. I wonder what the stats would look like if we WERE talking about what I thought.
BTW
221-102 (68.42%) | Last 10 (old -> recent): L W W W L W W W W W | View Games
vT: 87-50 (63.50%) | Last 10 (old -> recent): W L L L W W W L L W | View Games
vZ: 67-16 (80.72%) | Last 10 (old -> recent): W W W W W W L W W W | View Games
vP: 67-36 (65.05%
Fucking beastly ZvZ , and his other stats are great too. MVP of the year anyone?
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On May 15 2009 21:17 Smix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2009 21:15 scwizard wrote:
Very interesting find.
This is one of the reasons I like Jaedong and dislike flash, it's much more interesting to watch Jaedong.
I was going to rant here about what a terrible player Flash was, but I shouldn't go derailing threads. No, please explain. Just how is Flash a terrible player?
Beause his eyeballs twitch and he looks fugly
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On May 16 2009 05:33 onihunter wrote:
Soooo much fanboyism in the OP, and I love it.
^^ Yeah I know. I love it too
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Makes you also realise how infrequently FlaSh gets behind in a game :o
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EPT
