I am sucker for stats so I compiled all Jaedong , Bisu and Flash 's BOx games and made stats about it. Below a BOX or double elimination round etc. is called a match.
I’ve went through all their official games and have made some statistics about it. Below comebacks are where a player loses his first game and then goes on to win the match. Normal win is where the player wins the first game, and goes on to win the match.
Check it out
Jaedong Comeback wins to won matches ratio: 22/68 32.3% Normal win of won matches: 46/68 67.6% Win ratio (of matches): 68/87 78.2%
Bisu Comeback wins to won matches ratio: 12/55 21.8% Normal win of won matches: 43/55 78.2% Win ratio (of matches): 55/84 65.5%
Flash Comeback wins to won matches ratio: 5/59 8.5% Normal win of won matches: 54/59 91.5% Win ratio (of matches): 59/77 76.6%
If anyone have a good way to plot this, plz advise me, as this might be easier to intepret.
So JD not only has a huge win ratio of matches, but he also has a high comback win ratio, compared to Bisu and Flash in this case. Especially the old "loose the first game in a match and then win rest" fasion. This can also been seen in the listed games below.
Flash , however, makes very low amount of comebacks when he loses the first game. But he, as JD, still has a very high totalt win ratio and almost all of them are dominations. This is also very impressive.
The difference between Jaedong and Flash is very interesting IMO, especially considering both players have such high win ratio's overall.
I’m a huge Jaedong fan, and because of this I’ve been following him pretty closely, probably like most other people here at TL. One thing that I’ve noticed about JD, besides his crazy skill level, is that he very often loses the first game in a BOX or a double elimination round and then proceeds to win it. So I thought I would look into this with a little more detail. Below a BOX or double elim. round is called a match.
I’ve went through all his games that are listed in his profile here at TL and have made some statistics about it and I have also listed all his “comebacks” below. It turns out that over 37.8% of all his match- wins are comebacks. While this might sound impressive for some and maybe less for others I’ve made the same stats for Bisu and Flash. Bisus comeback pecentage is 25.6 which is actually quite high. But if you take both players win ratio (of matches) into account (Bisu 63.2% Jaedong 77.6%) it’s a quite high percentage for Jaedong. Flash, on the other hand, have a mere 7.3% won matches by comeback.
Now one might argue that it is not necessarily a good thing to win with a comeback, because you actually lost the first game. And this certainly is the case for Jaedong compared to Flash, because Flash have an almost as high matches won percentage, 73.2%, as Jaedong so one might say Flash is more dominant in his wins. While this hold true I think that Jaedongs stats display an absolutely stunning mind state. Jaedong plays extremely well under pressure, and maybe even best when one win or loss means do or die!
Jaedong has the highest match winning percentage at 77.6% followed by Flash at 73.2% and Bisu at 63.2%. Note that I simply selected these three players because they have all been pretty dominant for a relatively long time
Whenever Jaedong is down 0-1 or 0-2 commentators start talking about the "Jaedong score". He's quite famous for dropping 1 or 2 games against someone then taking the whole series.
He plays quite well under pressure and if he would be a little more adaptive to certain situations he'd win more titles.
On May 15 2009 03:34 JWD wrote: Nice stats, but I'm not so sure it's fair to call advancing out of a MST or OSL group with two wins after a loss a "comeback game".
But Jaedong has always been known to "heat up" over the course of a BoX series, and this OP proves it! Well done.
I think it is, because you have to "come back" and win the next to games without losing. And in some cases its even the same player you have to meet in the final game.
But guess it's just a discussion of the definition of comeback. And lets NOT derail this thread already.
On May 15 2009 03:34 JWD wrote: Nice stats, but I'm not so sure it's fair to call advancing out of a MST or OSL group with two wins after a loss a "comeback game".
But Jaedong has always been known to "heat up" over the course of a BoX series, and this OP proves it! Well done.
I think it is, because you have to "come back" and win the next to games without losing. And in some cases its even the same player you have to meet in the final game.
But guess it's just a discussion of the definition of comeback. And lets NOT derail this thread already.
Oh I agree you could call 2-1ing a group from the loser's game a comeback, but just not a "comeback game". Yeah it's a stupid nit...don't worry about it
Nice stats, thanks for the write up, what is also impressive that JD only lost 2 Bo5s in his career, once to Forgg in the fateful arena MSL, and his first Bo5 to Rock which is hilarious because he then proceeded to win the OSL after the OSC and rape the shit out of Stork in the finals.
As people have said Jaedong is known for dropping the first few games and then making a comeback. It would be interesting to see how many of those 1st games lost are from risky builds. Maybe he thinks if he loses the first game it will make the other player over confident. Not that I think he would lose the first game on purpose but maybe theres some psychological reasoning behind this? Ah maybe I'm looking too much into it.
Nah, it's just Jaedong being the, at his best, strongest player to play the game so far. When he's down a game I figure there's a switch or something he just turns on and goes "Welp time to win." I'm not even a huge Jaedong fan (I like Flash more), but can't deny he's battling at the top for the pure skill and he has that something special, star sense if you will, only matched by Savior in his prime.
This is what you call clutch. Interesting how it applies to e-sports and not only sports like basketball where famous players like MJ and Kobe are known to be quite clutch. In terms of team play, I'd say SkyHigh wins it for a team comeback :D
Actually, from my experience with fighting games, it happens often that better players intentionally play worse against weaker players on the initial contact, and as a result the weaker players think they're ahead and play to win. As a result, they reveal all their tricks and strategies and all of their game finishing moves right away. Once the better player learns all those tricks, he can counter his opponent perfectly and win the rest of the match with no fear for suddenly losing to something he didn't see coming earlier.
If JD is doing that he obviously won't admit it, since it ruins the whole point of this mind game. But maybe that's what he really does? Makes his opponents expose their cards while keeping his own hidden, and then sweep 100% ensured victories over them with no chance to lose on a fluke because he knows everything they're going to do in every situation before it even happens.
Look at the first 2 games of JD vs Fantasy on the recent OSL. I'm not going to put a spoiler tag because it's beyond time for that. JD lost those two games despite having a very good situational advantage, to really silly things. He made a bad engagement with his muta/scourge and promptly lost them all in the first game, which let fantasy move out earlier than the Z wants and grab map control, from which point JD was run over. In game 2, JD let the vultures get into his base, even that he could really easily stop them.
Maybe the truth is, he just wanted to see what follow up fantasy has planned after his vulture harass? He wanted to know what's fantasy gameplan after breaking the muta pressure? And once he knows those things, it's really easy to prepare for them ahead of time and just sweep wins.
In game 3, JD made lurkers, but in reality it was obvious that he could win with just muta/hydra a lot earlier. Maybe the reason he made lurkers is because he learned that fantasy uses bio after his valk, and he wanted to prepare for that ahead of time, expecting that to happen in game 3?
Did SkyHigh do any allkills besides the Oz reverse-allkill in the finals of last season?
Concerning Jaedong, I think he's got everything it takes to be a star. He's an awesome player, is great in interviews, and creates some really tense moments because he's so amazing when under pressure. Batoo OSL final might not be the best ever if you already know the results, but when watching those games live I was completely hyped up.
On May 15 2009 05:21 Aqo[il] wrote: Actually, from my experience with fighting games, it happens often that better players intentionally play worse against weaker players on the initial contact, and as a result the weaker players think they're ahead and play to win. As a result, they reveal all their tricks and strategies and all of their game finishing moves right away. Once the better player learns all those tricks, he can counter his opponent perfectly and win the rest of the match with no fear for suddenly losing to something he didn't see coming earlier.
If JD is doing that he obviously won't admit it, since it ruins the whole point of this mind game. But maybe that's what he really does? Makes his opponents expose their cards while keeping his own hidden, and then sweep 100% ensured victories over them with no chance to lose on a fluke because he knows everything they're going to do in every situation before it even happens.
Q: You often lose your first game in an important series. A: I think losing the first match gives me a reason to try harder to win the other games. I focus on getting a measure of opposing player's condition, his movement and mind games.
On May 15 2009 05:24 Harem wrote: Q: You often lose your first game in an important series. A: I think losing the first match gives me a reason to try harder to win the other games. I focus on getting a measure of opposing player's condition, his movement and mind games.
On May 15 2009 05:24 Harem wrote: Q: You often lose your first game in an important series. A: I think losing the first match gives me a reason to try harder to win the other games. I focus on getting a measure of opposing player's condition, his movement and mind games.
oo that's a quote?
Yeah, it's from an interview after he beat Bisu in that GOMTV Special Match.
On May 15 2009 05:21 Aqo[il] wrote: Actually, from my experience with fighting games, it happens often that better players intentionally play worse against weaker players on the initial contact, and as a result the weaker players think they're ahead and play to win. As a result, they reveal all their tricks and strategies and all of their game finishing moves right away. Once the better player learns all those tricks, he can counter his opponent perfectly and win the rest of the match with no fear for suddenly losing to something he didn't see coming earlier.
If JD is doing that he obviously won't admit it, since it ruins the whole point of this mind game. But maybe that's what he really does? Makes his opponents expose their cards while keeping his own hidden, and then sweep 100% ensured victories over them with no chance to lose on a fluke because he knows everything they're going to do in every situation before it even happens.
There's some truth to what you're saying. However, you gotta keep in mind the fact that in a fighting game, round to round is essentially the same conditions. Whereas in starcraft, several factors greatly change the gameplay. You have to consider map, spawning locations, opening builds, any of which could drastically alter the mechanics of the game. In a fighting game, your character's move list doesn't alter from match to match, and your tendencies don't change unless you consciously alter them. In a starcraft match, you have preplanned builds that don't necessarily overlap from game to game. While you could give an assessment of the "quality" of a player's gameplay, you can't necessarily predict what the opponent will do in the following matches.
On another note, I'm sure coaches and players study their opponent heavily before matches to find tendencies or patterns in their decision making during the game, therefore I'm not sure if it's really necessary to lose the first match to gain some marginal information that you might have missed from studying the player's past games.
Even that there are many small differences in -how- you play SC on different maps, the mindset remains the same. And by this I mean, timing for decisions as what triggers your moving out, what triggers your defensive play, etc. All the smaller details in the game are just mechanical breeds of a simplified meta-image of the game. And that meta-image is something that is drastically different from player to player, and it changes in each player every time he plays and depending on who he plays very quickly. Analyzing how fantasy plays against, lets say Luxury, does not mean he's going to use the same mindset against Jaedong. The best study you can get is in the real thing.
I don't really think losing the first match and then 3-0ing someone in the next 3 matches really counts as a real comeback or anything -_-. Just my opinion.
OSL Finals was definitely a sick comeback though and Jaedong obviously can be the most clutch player in SC. I don't think anyone denies it.
I seem to remember Jaedong saying something like You practice a lot for the first match, and then when you lose it it's like a wake up call and you start getting into the game (or pumped up, w/e) in some interview (I think after his vs. Stork finals)
On May 15 2009 05:24 Hammy wrote: Did SkyHigh do any allkills besides the Oz reverse-allkill in the finals of last season?
Concerning Jaedong, I think he's got everything it takes to be a star. He's an awesome player, is great in interviews, and creates some really tense moments because he's so amazing when under pressure. Batoo OSL final might not be the best ever if you already know the results, but when watching those games live I was completely hyped up.
About the reverse allkill, this is something one might consider adding to the "comeback" games. But I chose only to use stats from singles starleagues and not from proleague.
This is one of the reasons I like Jaedong and dislike flash, it's much more interesting to watch Jaedong.
I was going to rant here about what a terrible player Flash was, but I shouldn't go derailing threads.
On May 15 2009 18:53 hideo wrote: You notice it within games too... he's losing, then he just turns the whole thing around.
Yeah, that's extremely fun to watch. It's like "wow, what enormous preasure, I'm not sure if Jaedong can take this" and then suddenly dropdropdropdropswarmdropswarm mutas out of NOWHERE, god mode activated an attack from three sides simultaneously.
On May 15 2009 18:53 hideo wrote: You notice it within games too... he's losing, then he just turns the whole thing around.
Yeah, that's extremely fun to watch. It's like "wow, what enormous preasure, I'm not sure if Jaedong can take this" and then suddenly dropdropdropdropswarmdropswarm mutas out of NOWHERE, god mode activated an attack from three sides simultaneously.
Flash? Terrible?
You must be joking.
Rant as much as you want, I can probably find a valid counter-argument for every single one of your points.
On May 15 2009 21:15 scwizard wrote: Very interesting find.
This is one of the reasons I like Jaedong and dislike flash, it's much more interesting to watch Jaedong.
I was going to rant here about what a terrible player Flash was, but I shouldn't go derailing threads.
No, please explain. Just how is Flash a terrible player?
If you look at his stats, he loses to good players more frequently than other top players do. The only reason his stats are good is because he can consistently beat players a class below him.
Also he doesn't perform well under pressure and can be inflexible at crucial moments.
Also I'm an antifan.
EDIT: Obviously Flash isn't terrible. He's a top player. By saying "rant about how terrible he is" I didn't mean he was terrible, I meant that the initial rant that I almost posted, was illogical etc.
Also the thing about the stats really only applies to recentish games. I would imagine that back in the last Bacchus OSL he was a better player than he is now.
On May 15 2009 21:15 scwizard wrote: Very interesting find.
This is one of the reasons I like Jaedong and dislike flash, it's much more interesting to watch Jaedong.
I was going to rant here about what a terrible player Flash was, but I shouldn't go derailing threads.
No, please explain. Just how is Flash a terrible player?
If you look at his stats, he loses to good players more frequently than other top players do. The only reason his stats are good is because he can consistently beat players a class below him.
Also he doesn't perform well under pressure and can be inflexible at crucial moments.
Also I'm an antifan.
EDIT: Obviously Flash isn't terrible. He's a top player. By saying "rant about how terrible he is" I didn't mean he was terrible, I meant that the initial rant that I almost posted, was illogical etc.
I'll refute your second point first, saying that Flash doesn't perform well under pressure. Look at the Bacchus OSL Finals, Semifinals, and Quarterfinals. Flash encountered the only three players in the world that could be comparable to him, and he beat them all. Look at GSI. Flash took down probably the number 1 PvT in the world at that time in a Bo5 series and his first final. Flash is young, but his mindset is strong enough and I don't think he's affected much by nerves.
Now, I looked at Flash's game list and singled out his last games against A/S class players... + Show Spoiler +
*Newest to oldest
vs Effort L vs Skyhigh W vs Hiya L vs Skyhigh L vs Fantasy L vs Yellow[arnc] W vs Leta W vs Light W vs Leta L vs Leta L vs Best L vs Upmagic L vs Really W vs hyvaa W vs Hwasin W vs Leta W vs Kal W vs Hwasin W vs Jaedong W vs Hiya W
12-8 against A/S class players, 60%. I dare say that that's better than everybody that was just listed except Jaedong, Leta, Fantasy, and maybe Skyhigh (too lazy to check right now)
On May 15 2009 21:15 scwizard wrote: Very interesting find.
This is one of the reasons I like Jaedong and dislike flash, it's much more interesting to watch Jaedong.
I was going to rant here about what a terrible player Flash was, but I shouldn't go derailing threads.
No, please explain. Just how is Flash a terrible player?
If you look at his stats, he loses to good players more frequently than other top players do. The only reason his stats are good is because he can consistently beat players a class below him.
Also he doesn't perform well under pressure and can be inflexible at crucial moments.
Also I'm an antifan.
EDIT: Obviously Flash isn't terrible. He's a top player. By saying "rant about how terrible he is" I didn't mean he was terrible, I meant that the initial rant that I almost posted, was illogical etc.
I'll refute your second point first, saying that Flash doesn't perform well under pressure. Look at the Bacchus OSL Finals, Semifinals, and Quarterfinals. Flash encountered the only three players in the world that could be comparable to him, and he beat them all. Look at GSI. Flash took down probably the number 1 PvT in the world at that time in a Bo5 series and his first final. Flash is young, but his mindset is strong enough and I don't think he's affected much by nerves.
Now, I looked at Flash's game list and singled out his last games against A/S class players... + Show Spoiler +
*Newest to oldest
vs Effort L vs Skyhigh W vs Hiya L vs Skyhigh L vs Fantasy L vs Yellow[arnc] W vs Leta W vs Light W vs Leta L vs Leta L vs Best L vs Upmagic L vs Really W vs hyvaa W vs Hwasin W vs Leta W vs Kal W vs Hwasin W vs Jaedong W vs Hiya W
12-8 against A/S class players, 60%. I dare say that that's better than everybody that was just listed except Jaedong, Leta, Fantasy, and maybe Skyhigh (too lazy to check right now)
FYI, both Leta and Fantasy cheesed Flash, that is good telling of who the superior player is doesnt it? Who believes in his skill set the most.
On May 15 2009 21:15 scwizard wrote: Very interesting find.
This is one of the reasons I like Jaedong and dislike flash, it's much more interesting to watch Jaedong.
I was going to rant here about what a terrible player Flash was, but I shouldn't go derailing threads.
No, please explain. Just how is Flash a terrible player?
If you look at his stats, he loses to good players more frequently than other top players do. The only reason his stats are good is because he can consistently beat players a class below him.
Effort, Skyhigh, Jaedong and Fantasy (I'm not counting that shit that happened on Battle Royal). I don't think these guys are pushovers, winning these guys are pretty amazing. Let's look at Jaedong's 5 recent losses - Hyvaa, Ganzi, Movie x2 and Fantasy. Name value-wise, they are pretty even except for Ganzi and Movie x2. So that makes Jaedong (according to your logic) worse, no?
On May 15 2009 21:25 scwizard wrote: Also he doesn't perform well under pressure and can be inflexible at crucial moments.
This trait is something very exceptionally strong people have (Jaedong, Bisu, Savior in his prime, etc). Being inflexible and breaking down sometimes under pressure does not equate to 'being a terrible player'. Besides, Flash hardly broke down under pressure, his loss against Effort was due to Effort's great play, while his loss against Jaedong was simply because Jaedong played better.
God damn, then if Flash lost a game or two because of some pressure, then the rest of the 'non-A/S class' should quit progaming huh?
On May 15 2009 21:25 scwizard wrote: Also I'm an antifan.
Confirmation bias moar
On May 15 2009 21:25 scwizard wrote: EDIT: Obviously Flash isn't terrible. He's a top player. By saying "rant about how terrible he is" I didn't mean he was terrible, I meant that the initial rant that I almost posted, was illogical etc.
Oh yeah, I'm pretty sure the rest of TL didn't think so.
On May 15 2009 21:25 scwizard wrote: Also the thing about the stats really only applies to recentish games. I would imagine that back in the last Bacchus OSL he was a better player than he is now.
Statistics are the most deceiving lies ever. Did you even watch these guys play?
On May 15 2009 06:05 Vasoline73 wrote: I don't really think losing the first match and then 3-0ing someone in the next 3 matches really counts as a real comeback or anything -_-. Just my opinion.
OSL Finals was definitely a sick comeback though and Jaedong obviously can be the most clutch player in SC. I don't think anyone denies it.
It kind of is, though, because winning the first game of a BoX is a huge statistical indicator of winning the series. Its actually quite rare for the person who wins the first game to lose the series.
Well its something I always kind of suspected but is always nice to have it on stats so thanks. He may not have the best mechanics (not that they are bad ofcourse), but he has the strongets mental strenght of the pro players.
He has never had a long term slump like almost every other pro players out there. And thats another reason I think he will take at least 3 more starL titles excluding Gom Tv.
On May 15 2009 21:25 scwizard wrote: I would imagine that back in the last Bacchus OSL he was a better player than he is now.
Are you actually telling us you haven't seen the kid play and you still think he's terrible?
Back around Bacchus time he was invincible. You couldn't cheese him, you couldn't rush him, you couldn't trick him, and if the game went past 15 minutes you were absolutely fucked no matter what you did. Trying to harass him was like flushing your APM down the toilet, it was so pointless. Flash just said "fuck you" to map balance as well --- if he didn't like how the map played, he'd either make a build that worked or just BBS and win. That's why he was able to go through Jaedong, Bisu and Stork to earn his title, on crazy maps like Troy and Katrina.
Now it just so happens that a few people have caught up with his macro and adapted to his methods --- see Bisu vs Flash in GOM S2. That doesn't mean he isn't still one of the scariest players around, and it sure as hell doesn't mean he's terrible now. We all know it's just a matter of time before he goes into godmode again and just rips another individual league to shreds.
~~~~~~~~~~
Edit: hey, this thread is about Jaedong not Flash. Thanks for the stats. I think this is what I like best about Jaedong. I like how he gets angry and charged up. Watching him own ZvZ's over and over again in proleague is fun, but the really great part is watching him play in a series, where by the deciding game he always has this expression like he's ready to kill the guy in the other booth with his bare hands.
On May 15 2009 04:55 Orbifold wrote: Jaedong has the heart of a champion. I remember Super Daniel man telling a story about an interview he did with Jaedong:
SDM: Jaedong, when you have to play other top players like Flash and Bisu do you ever get scared before or during the game?
JD: What's the point?
Total baddass.
Other than the fact that JD said he was nervous as shit during the OSL finals against Fantasy.
At first I thought the OP meant that inside each game it was a comeback, and I was like, "Wtf, OP actually sat down and watched every single JD game to make this?" , Then I thought, "Who is to say what exactly defines a comeback anyways". Then I read the thread. I wonder what the stats would look like if we WERE talking about what I thought.
BTW
221-102 (68.42%) | Last 10 (old -> recent): L W W W L W W W W W | View Games vT: 87-50 (63.50%) | Last 10 (old -> recent): W L L L W W W L L W | View Games vZ: 67-16 (80.72%) | Last 10 (old -> recent): W W W W W W L W W W | View Games vP: 67-36 (65.05%
Fucking beastly ZvZ , and his other stats are great too. MVP of the year anyone?
I'm not sure if anyone else noticed this in the OSL semis, but I felt like Jaedong didn't play up to his usual standard in game 1. Then game 2 rolled around and it looked like Fantasy's amazing harass was going to tear him down, but then all of a sudden I swear he just 'woke up'. I think in his mind he was saying something along the lines of "I CAN HARASS TOO - LET'S SEE WHO CAN MULTITASK BETTER" and started to play amazingly like the Jaedong we've grown accustomed to.
Did it seem like this to anyone else? :O I really feel like when Jaedong gets fired up, there's no one who can compete with him. You can see it in his eyes - Also happened after his loss to Orion. He looked absolutely RAGING after that loss. He then went on to make Effort look like an amateur.
On August 16 2009 22:45 deverlight wrote: I'm not sure if anyone else noticed this in the OSL semis, but I felt like Jaedong didn't play up to his usual standard in game 1. Then game 2 rolled around and it looked like Fantasy's amazing harass was going to tear him down, but then all of a sudden I swear he just 'woke up'. I think in his mind he was saying something along the lines of "I CAN HARASS TOO - LET'S SEE WHO CAN MULTITASK BETTER" and started to play amazingly like the Jaedong we've grown accustomed to.
Did it seem like this to anyone else? :O I really feel like when Jaedong gets fired up, there's no one who can compete with him. You can see it in his eyes - Also happened after his loss to Orion. He looked absolutely RAGING after that loss. He then went on to make Effort look like an amateur.
I noticed that in game 2 as well. Especially when he made the first drop on Fantasys first min only expasion. Just dropped 8 lings, but it was the start of fantasy falling apart. And like you said it was like he chose to think, lets see who hsa best multitasking, and JD came out on top. Its even more evident when you think about it this way; you dont often see JD or zergs, make speed ovies+ drop vs bio terran.
On August 16 2009 23:28 Nevuk wrote: I'm actually more impressed by Bisu's comeback ratio than by JD's.
Ok. Why?
While it's not quite as "Wow" it's still fairly high and I'd never heard about it. I'd love to see some comparisons with past greats like Boxer, Yellow, Nada, Savior etc.
On August 16 2009 23:28 Nevuk wrote: I'm actually more impressed by Bisu's comeback ratio than by JD's.
Ok. Why?
While it's not quite as "Wow" it's still fairly high and I'd never heard about it. I'd love to see some comparisons with past greats like Boxer, Yellow, Nada, Savior etc.
Well 25% isn't exactly super high. Flash's comeback ratio just is really... bad. I guess Bisu's is like average.
On August 16 2009 23:28 Nevuk wrote: I'm actually more impressed by Bisu's comeback ratio than by JD's.
Ok. Why?
While it's not quite as "Wow" it's still fairly high and I'd never heard about it. I'd love to see some comparisons with past greats like Boxer, Yellow, Nada, Savior etc.
Yeah, I actually was quite surpriced myself when I made these stats. I picked Flash and Bisu because they where the two best or their races at the time, and I thought they would have very low comeback %. Turned out Flash had extremely low and bisu had quite high. If I find the time, I'll go through other great players.
Anger helps him. Look at his face after losses. He is ANGRY!!! That is what differs him from other players. They are going to cry after a defeat, and he is going to kill his offender.
That is the main reason of such incredible results: Jaedong is the most angry progamer. When he loses, he becomes such angry that he can tear everyone apart.
This also explains his incredible short worst sreak (4 losses): after each loss his anger becomes stronger and stronger. Jaedong becomes furious and kills his opponents.
He is the only progamer who doesn't try to stay calm after victories and defeates. He is the only progamer who doesn't become upset after losses. He is the only one who becomes angry after failures. This is the secret of his success.
On August 16 2009 22:45 deverlight wrote: I'm not sure if anyone else noticed this in the OSL semis, but I felt like Jaedong didn't play up to his usual standard in game 1. Then game 2 rolled around and it looked like Fantasy's amazing harass was going to tear him down, but then all of a sudden I swear he just 'woke up'. I think in his mind he was saying something along the lines of "I CAN HARASS TOO - LET'S SEE WHO CAN MULTITASK BETTER" and started to play amazingly like the Jaedong we've grown accustomed to.
Did it seem like this to anyone else? :O I really feel like when Jaedong gets fired up, there's no one who can compete with him. You can see it in his eyes - Also happened after his loss to Orion. He looked absolutely RAGING after that loss. He then went on to make Effort look like an amateur.
Yes i totally agree. Game 1 he just fell apart under Fantasy's dropships and multitasking.. i was like "WTF THIS IS NOT JAEDONG IM SEEING". and then, he woke up.
Its just JD style BoX.. I waws surprised at how low Flash's comeback ratio was.. and Bisu's is still pretty decent, but JD is the master of comebacks undisputed.
On August 16 2009 23:27 meegrean wrote: Jaedong's God Mode tends to only activate right after losing a first game. Think of it as some kind of adrenaline rush
It's because he remembers to upgrade adrenal glands.
I gotta say, it's really satisfying to be a Jaedong fan when you read his answers in interviews:
-It seems that many players have finally grasped an understanding of your play. ▲I can almost feel their team's analysis of my play in my opponents' strategies. However, this is just another motivation for me to elevate my play to the next level. As they work hard to beat me, I must work even harder to become an even better player. Although I feel pressured sometimes, this pressure is what is pushing me to become the best. Working hard to become a perpetually strong player is very important to me.
This to me says that he's never complacent. He's aware that others are getting better and others are studying his play and countering it thusly. And he believes that this is just motivation to play even better starcraft! Unbelievable! A lot of great players just become too used to their dominance and too confident in their abilities to ever adjust their play. I think it might have been George St.Pierre that said you only become a true champion once you've defended your title. And I think JD understands this more than any other player!
On July 10 2010 17:41 Scaramanga wrote: I dont understand when you say "Comeback wins to won matches ratio", what do you count as a match were a player has comeback?
On May 15 2009 03:30 Ota Solgryn wrote:
I’ve went through all their official games and have made some statistics about it. Below comebacks are where a player loses his first game and then goes on to win the match. Normal win is where the player wins the first game, and goes on to win the match.
On July 10 2010 17:41 Scaramanga wrote: I dont understand when you say "Comeback wins to won matches ratio", what do you count as a match were a player has comeback?
Probably losing the first set in a Bo3 and the first two in a bo5
Actually I count it as JUST the first game. So I BO5 a comeback is here regarded as LWWW or LLWWW. I did this because JD has ALOT of those LWWW and these statistics were originally based on JD "ability" to do that.
haha I was kind of hoping this thread was about their Build Order stats, as in what BOs they tend to use the most and how often they win using different opening BOs =p
It might be interesting to see the probability that these players comeback, given the opportunity to do so (i. e. after getting put in a comeback situation, how often do these players rise to the occasion?)
On July 12 2010 11:45 DaisyP wrote: It might be interesting to see the probability that these players comeback, given the opportunity to do so (i. e. after getting put in a comeback situation, how often do these players rise to the occasion?)
No, he didn't. The stats simply show the percentage of wins that are comebacks and not comebacks. They don't show the percentage of successful comebacks out of comeback attempts/opportunities.
These are some really interesting strats. Perhaps it shows that JD wins the games he has to win (more so then the others). Regardless, I am sure this took alot of work. Thanks!
Really cool. Would be nice if was updated so it includes recent months as well. Also as heyoka suggested, splitting it into bo3 and bo5 would be interesting.
On July 12 2010 12:18 heyoka wrote: I was just wondering yesterday how often players win after losing the first game. Very cool.
Can you separate it for bo3 and bo5? I'm interested specifically in what the stats look like for a 5 game series.
For me to do that I would have to go through all their games again. Which took maybe 4 hours. So I do not have time to do that atm, sorry.
On July 12 2010 13:48 Lebesgue wrote: Really cool. Would be nice if was updated so it includes recent months as well. Also as heyoka suggested, splitting it into bo3 and bo5 would be interesting.
It is updated for the recent months as well. With the latest games taken into account are from this friday.
I have the same problem with Jaedong. When I play vs lesser players I might play a bit loose in the first game, but when I see I'm in trouble I'll start playing for real.
JD wasn't able to pull off his comeback vs Flash last time tho, becouse he is not a lesser player.
JD has pulled comebacks over good players too. Look at his comeback over Fantasy in the OSL.
You can't pull off comebacks all the time, and I don't think it has anything to do with the the class of player. I wouldn't attribute his comeback stats to him playing relaxed in the first game at all. Keep in mind Flash had just lost the OSL to Effort against Flash, which exposed alot of his TvZ weaknesses. Also add to that that Effort and Flash are good friends, JD couldn't use Effort's style.
That being said, Flash played like a frickin mad man that series. Also, it was a clash between the Dominator and the Comeback King
Dominator won that series, but I doubt it'll be the last. Personally enjoy watching comebacks rather than pure domination :p
effort vs flash doesn't have anything to do with what I was talking about :O
.... I was going to write a lot of stuff here but then I read your signature/quote and understood that you have your biased opinions that cannot be changed.
Not to be pedantic, but I think having comebacks as a percentage of total wins doesn't quite tell the story that nicely.
If I won all 100 of my matches, and 10 of them were comebacks, you'd show a 10% comeback ratio. But really I won all of my comeback games, I just didn't need to do it that often.
If you want to make the statement:
Flash , however, makes very low amount of comebacks when he loses the first game
You really need to have a stat that measures how often he comes back against the total times he goes behind, not the total wins.
On July 13 2010 02:06 Clerseri wrote: Not to be pedantic, but I think having comebacks as a percentage of total wins doesn't quite tell the story that nicely.
If I won all 100 of my matches, and 10 of them were comebacks, you'd show a 10% comeback ratio. But really I won all of my comeback games, I just didn't need to do it that often.
if you want to know how good someone is at coming back. Flash's low percentage is more representative of the fact that when he's going to win a series, he just dominates it from start to finish, than of the "fact" that he's worse at comebacks than Bisu and Jaedong. (He may be, but these numbers don't show it.)
On July 13 2010 02:06 Clerseri wrote: Not to be pedantic, but I think having comebacks as a percentage of total wins doesn't quite tell the story that nicely.
If I won all 100 of my matches, and 10 of them were comebacks, you'd show a 10% comeback ratio. But really I won all of my comeback games, I just didn't need to do it that often.
EPT
Jaedong
Bisu
Flash
