Gundam Push VS Reaver and/or DT Drop

On November 19 2003 02:22 HovZ wrote:
u should type GG and leave

On November 19 2003 02:30 ObsoleteLogic wrote:
HovZ, do you ever have anything to contribute?

On November 19 2003 00:54 x[ReaPeR]x wrote:
if you Gundam Push and your opponent Reaver/DT drops you main what should you do? Do you have enough units at the push to just attack and win or what?

On November 19 2003 03:01 BlackJack wrote:
the best strat is reaver then dt drop ;p

On November 19 2003 04:34 HovZ wrote:
uhh, ya then ur 1 tank 4 riens and 1 vult at his base die to dt, very smart o logic. if u knew more about bw ud know why im right

On November 19 2003 04:34 HovZ wrote:
uhh, ya then ur 1 tank 4 riens and 1 vult at his base die to dt, very smart o logic. if u knew more about bw ud know why im right

On November 19 2003 04:50 ObsoleteLogic wrote:


I know more about BW than you could possibly fathom. The fact of the matter is, I'm not a good player. I know what to do, how to do it, but I can never actually do it myself; I get flustered and stop thinking in game. That you automatically concede defeat to a reaver/dt drop because you gundamed, shows that you really lack imagination/creativity.

On November 19 2003 05:25 HovZ wrote:
dudey, ok lets say u gundam. by the time u reach their ramp is the same time dts hit ur base. i use to gudnam alot so i know when dt drop comes. ur in no position to defend it. even if u do actually stop the dt drop u will eb so far behind that u will lose. thats why u should just leave. i know exactly what im talking about

On November 19 2003 05:34 ilnp wrote:

wow tvp is the ownage invincibility potion #1 sniper wolf
/sarcasm

consider how fast shuttles move vs tanks/marines. you're saying a shuttle and 2 dt's finish at the same time as your first tank?i think not. or maybe you just build fucking slow.

regardless, the dt's do come out fast enough to prevent you from hurting the protoss enough to make it worth it, so when you scout suspicious behavior you *do not rush*. by having the vultures from one factory and tanks from the other you have a serious unit lead because grabbing an engineering bay does not put you far behind. from then you can decide how you feel best to deal with the situation, but you most certainly have the lead. if the protoss is one of the players who DT drops then ports immediatley to an expansion to catch up, one might find the best response is an offensive one before you expand. if they gate up, then the best response would be an economical one. regardless, you most definitely are safe from any attack and have a significant advantage. it's my belief the gundam build is probably the safest TvP build there is for lost temple =[

*for an example of opening with a gundam build and not rushing i refer people back to elky vs rekrul, the original liquibition matches. he went 9-0

On November 19 2003 05:34 ilnp wrote:
*for an example of opening with a gundam build and not rushing i refer people back to elky vs rekrul, the original liquibition matches. he went 9-0

On November 19 2003 05:39 Grotfang wrote:


ElkY has that build in mind from the start.. it's not a fork, it's what he calls "2fact exp" and part of its strength lies in that it really looks like bamboo


sorry that I post so much, this is a really interesting topic for me

On November 19 2003 05:46 SoLaR[i.C] wrote:
Uhh...what's gundam and what's bamboo? Gundam = goliath? Bamboo

On November 19 2003 06:40 SpuniasauR wrote:
omfg. gundam is early vult with rine and plenty scv. sometimes tank, wat all versions of gundam have in common is that 1. the scvs press the goons so u can micro rines in front of em and vults mine behind. then u push forward. second it involves gettin as close as u can to the toss's base then one or 2 bunkers.

a bamboo IS THE SAME THING. its called a gundam becuz gundam thought it up. and it was nicknamed bamboo because its hard to break in early game pvt. see u can go hard out goon and ob but if ur micro is bad or ur unlucky in some way it can push u back as far as ur exp and then tanks/vults push can START from there, which i dont have to tell u is a pain in the ass. think LT if they can fire on ur ramp itll b hard to break the push successfully. if u go reaver u can stop it or go to the enemies base (the point of this thread) or if u go dt u can choose again, break it? or go to enemies base. i agree if the toss goes DT the gundam fucks the terran up bad cuz unless u have great mine placement ur screwed. turrets mostly wont be up in time and dts can wreck ur base. i personally prefer a straight fast tech to reaver when a guy goes gundam cuz it allows me to hit his lowly defended base or out range the bunker straight away with reaver. that is if i havent started singularity for goons (they outrange bunker with range upgrade and reaver allows for fastish obs compared to dt tech. ok so thats 4 u verbloten and solari, hovz and ilnp dont have a flame @ me, im just explaining 2 them.

On November 19 2003 06:48 Liquid`Drone wrote:
obsoletelogic

people with good understanding of starcraft are always good players.

even if you have 80 apm you can be a somewhat good player as long as you've got a good understanding of the game.

On November 19 2003 05:12 ilnp wrote:


I really doubt that's true. A lot of mediocre players (i use mediocre loosely because objectively i consider myself mediocre which would make you guys fucking ratass horrible) assume what holds them back at BW is their mouse speed/level of practice. That's not it. I don't play anymore but I can still come back and win a large percentage of my games against everybody "the rung below" even though a lot of speed/micro/feeling is gone. I just know what to do.

That's why you see a lot of really good players play other races with ease. Once you understand what makes each matchup function and work and why you're winning your games learning other matchups is very easy.

On November 19 2003 06:44 travis wrote:


shut up when you don't know what you are talking about.

gundam is VERY specific

On November 19 2003 15:07 ObsoleteLogic wrote:
Eri - Ever heard of modesty? And actually, the whole APM thing comes as a distraction to me; if I think about it in the slightest, I end up mashing keys and not thinking. Pavlovian reaction, almost. Terribly sad.

The three people I have played and lost to on this forum (in this discussion at least), are HovZ (which was a game I could have won, but didn't play that well), Travis (which was back in... January, I believe), and ilnp (also in January).

There are several people involved in this discussion whom I have beaten. I won't name names. Needless to say, many of you aren't even close to qualified to comment on how good or bad I am.

So kindly shut up.

On November 19 2003 15:33 BigBalls wrote:
i really dont feel like reading through 5 pages of this stuff, so Ill just say my opinion.


if you see something other than 1 gate goon, range, then robo, dont gundam rush him. Or if you do, make sure you are defending for other things. If you see 1 gate goon, range, then robo, gundam will push him back into his main for a while, if not win the game, and you can expo easily then mass.

However, if he is going reaver or dt, you dont have to rush. I dont know if you guys got the memo or not, but there is something called adaptation. You make some mines at your mins, a bunch at your ramp, get an ebay, get a few turrets, expo, then do your mass/turtle dropping garbage.

Dont put all your eggs in one basket

P.S. I think this is the strongest build, because its possible avenues can counter effectively almost every p opening.

On November 19 2003 15:07 ObsoleteLogic wrote:
Eri - Ever heard of modesty? And actually, the whole APM thing comes as a distraction to me; if I think about it in the slightest, I end up mashing keys and not thinking. Pavlovian reaction, almost. Terribly sad.

The three people I have played and lost to on this forum (in this discussion at least), are HovZ (which was a game I could have won, but didn't play that well), Travis (which was back in... January, I believe), and ilnp (also in January).

There are several people involved in this discussion whom I have beaten. I won't name names. Needless to say, many of you aren't even close to qualified to comment on how good or bad I am.

So kindly shut up.

On November 19 2003 16:21 Liquid`Drone wrote:
hey freezeternal

if you kill 8 scvs there's no point in dual expanding as your economy will be much better from just expanding once..

:D

and obsoletelogic I honestly don't understand what about my post was "arrogant" or in any other way "not modest", or if that "ever heard of modesty" was referring to something else.

I mean I can act arrogant, normally on purpose, but I can't understand why you'd say "ever heard of modesty" as a reply to my post. (my apm isn't close to 80. )

On November 19 2003 16:23 FreeZEternal wrote:


heheh..but it is fun to crush him badly with 200 units in 15 min -_-;;

On November 19 2003 16:46 BigBalls wrote:


its also fun to lose to a desperation push because you overextended yourself.

On November 19 2003 16:48 ObsoleteLogic wrote:
FA I don't ever remember playing you, sorry if we did.

Eri I was referring to myself. I could go and brag about the people I've beaten, say I'm good, but I don't.

On November 19 2003 17:10 BlackJack wrote:
90% of terrans in 2v2 spend too much resources on taking cliffs, than you can crush them or their ally before your economy starts to suck

On November 19 2003 17:15 BlackJack wrote:
according to my theory craft on LT: P/T is the most solid all around team

On November 19 2003 17:21 BlackJack wrote:
dual stargate + Tank drops + expo isles is pretty solid against dual Z

On November 19 2003 17:27 BlackJack wrote:
i don't die to zerg rushes. pylon/gate/zealots/pylon at ramp/forge/shield battery + cannon at ramp. That will hold off 60 or so zerglings pretty easily, and if neccessary you can slide some probes over. Terran of course will get a wall/bunker/8 rines/2 scv to block ramp. Toss will stop making zealots after 3 or 4 and build 2-3 cannons at his nexus, and you will have enough to defend against muta with the sair. If they switch to hydra, your allies drops you some tanks. Than you continue to crush their ledges with +1 sair/tank. You can have infinite ammount of muta/scourge but it won't beat 16 +1 sairs rofl

On November 19 2003 17:13 BlackJack wrote:
why not use FrozenArbiter?

On November 19 2003 17:37 FreeZEternal wrote:
And by the way,,,-_-;;we could not rush cuz there were too many speedlings outside of our bases -_-;;;;;

On November 19 2003 17:53 ObsoleteLogic wrote:
You lost 4 games in x17...? ):

On November 19 2003 16:48 ObsoleteLogic wrote:
FA I don't ever remember playing you, sorry if we did.

Eri I was referring to myself. I could go and brag about the people I've beaten, say I'm good, but I don't.

On November 19 2003 21:31 ObsoleteLogic wrote:
Simply because HovZ is better does not mean he knows the game better.

On November 19 2003 21:31 ObsoleteLogic wrote:
Hot_Bid, if I named people, that would be bragging. What I'm saying is, yeah, maybe I'm not that bad, but I don't feel that I am good. Simply because HovZ is better does not mean he knows the game better. I argue with him because he is wrong.

On November 19 2003 22:05 ilnp wrote:


Actually, if someone is better than you it is because they know the game better. However, HovZ is stupid and black, so he's still wrong.

On November 19 2003 22:05 ilnp wrote:


Actually, if someone is better than you it is because they know the game better. However, HovZ is stupid and black, so he's still wrong.

On November 19 2003 04:50 ObsoleteLogic wrote:


I know more about BW than you could possibly fathom. The fact of the matter is, I'm not a good player. I know what to do, how to do it, but I can never actually do it myself; I get flustered and stop thinking in game. That you automatically concede defeat to a reaver/dt drop because you gundamed, shows that you really lack imagination/creativity.

On November 20 2003 01:00 DeMoNiC wrote:
i understand what obsolete logic means, i understand the game fairly well( i know all the termonology, all the nice players, popular builds, i keep track of the leagues ect..) , but im really slow (less then 70 apm average) i cant multitask for shit, and my micro is quite poor since i havent practiced it enough and i obviously have slow hands, all and all i think even if i had played bw for 6 years i would not be as good as hovZ or Ilnp... unless i immensly improved my hand speed and strat execution within that time period.. in conclusion i suck =)

On November 19 2003 04:50 ObsoleteLogic wrote:

(quoting HovZ)

I know more about BW than you could possibly fathom. The fact of the matter is, I'm not a good player. I know what to do, how to do it, but I can never actually do it myself; I get flustered and stop thinking in game.

On November 20 2003 05:40 Hot_Bid wrote:


I'm pretty sure he and many people can "fathom" your boundless BW knowledge. I don't know what "profound knowledge" you may possess, and I don't know how you could possibly be such a Brood War savant and at the same time not be a good player. It's just contradictory.

You can't separate execution from "knowing the game" because it's such a huge part of BW. We've all watched Boxer kill lurkers with marines and we know everything about it, but that doesn't mean we know how to do it. Your statement about "knowing the intricacies and timing and stuff" is just blatantly wrong. If you did you'd be a good player.

Why don't you make an RWA of one of your own replays (maybe one of the occasional good games) and share some of the profound knowledge, I'm sure everyone here would benefit, oh great professional BW coach that is OL.

On November 20 2003 05:29 ObsoleteLogic wrote:
iGgs, what'd I ever do to you? I do have a "profound knowledge" of the game.

How do you know I don't?


p.s., you used ostensible incorrectly.

On November 19 2003 17:09 FreeZEternal wrote:
But why only play 1vs1? I'm kinda getting sick of 1vs1 so I am starting to play 2vs2 more often. You guys should try Brood War kor-2 in west server for team battles in hunters. So~!~!good. Nada is practicing 2vs2 too in Brood war kor-2. I remembered when I played against [Oops]November and his clan, 3vs3 in hunters for like 30 min.After that game, I did not play for the whole day(too tired).
At least you don't need to worry about gundam rushes, reaver drops and shits, but you have to micro your zeal the whole game -_-;;;.
It can be said that Brood war kor-2 is the namomo channel of team battles...heheh

On November 20 2003 00:45 ObsoleteLogic wrote:
Best counter to gundam is flat 2 goon obs. So long as you don't totally screw your micro (:

On November 20 2003 07:52 iGgs wrote:


wasnt there another instance of you disputing something or another in which you were unanimously proven wrong, between yourself and travis perhaps? you kept on obstinately arguing your point just as you're doing now when you were simply wrong. you never did anything to me, but maybe you should stop trying to portray yourself as such a smart guy all the time and act like a normal person. your psuedo intellect act has got me all but sick.

On November 20 2003 10:40 FrozenArbiter wrote:
To the person who said that 'range and 2 gate goon is the best vs gundam', what if they are not gundaming but 2 fac vult? Or add a 3rd fac and 3 fac vulture when you have no obs.

On November 20 2003 11:14 kaz wrote:



that's a horrible way to argue things -- logically, if you weren't going up against gundam then you wouldn't go with a counter-gundam build order, regardless of whether or not you believe fast reaver or 2gate ranged goons is the better order. i could rephrase your statement as such: "to the person who said that 3rax beats muta, what if they are not going muta but hydra/lurker? or add another hatch and go 4 hatch ling?" see what i mean?

in any case, from personal experience i've found fast reaver beats gundam, pretty much hands down, unless the terran player is better than i am at micro and multitasking. while he creeps up my choke, i have many options: add a second gate, stop his mining, bring the reaver home to take out bunker, drop his tanks w/ zealot(s), etc., etc. however, those options can disappear in the span of fifteen seconds -- it's all about timing.

On November 20 2003 12:36 surv wrote:
medics > obs

On November 20 2003 13:01 surv wrote:
I was joking. Eriador tried a blind strat on observers recenlty.

On November 20 2003 20:13 baal wrote:
Exellent post...

i think there is a way of stopping it beting a lil on luck...

turret by couples on the edges, we know that 2 turrets can kill a shuttle in an instant, if the P do not reacts very quick his DTs reavers will die, and if he retreats to enter on other side of the base his shuttle will be very damaged and any other turret can kill it.

id say like 4 turrets very well placed can surprise him and if they do its actually GG