Do Zerg players just like to help?

On March 19 2009 01:27 nttea wrote:
Yes, that is because us zerg considers ourselves as a complete entity, one players success and failures are the hive's own succeeds and failures. This collective superiority stands in sharp contrast with the terrans inferior every-man-for-himself mindset.

On March 19 2009 01:28 Zyarktodt wrote:


Then why is there only one overmind(dominant player) at a time?

On March 19 2009 01:33 gophillies3939 wrote:
4sh5sh6sh7sh there u learned zerg

On March 19 2009 01:28 Zyarktodt wrote:


Then why is there only one overmind(dominant player) at a time?

On March 19 2009 01:42 Lq_ fAn wrote:

you know jeadong had and have insane mechanics but he was just regular progamer but know he's a beast and not because of 4sh5sh6sh.....

On March 19 2009 03:32 raga4ka wrote:
I really need to lurn standart ZvT I practise my muta micro and do a lot of 2 hat muta in to lurker or the other way around , but i normaly suck at controling large armys middle game vs terran i end up losing a lot of lings ... Well at least until C - i don't have eny problems . if there is eny vods on standart ZvT i would be happy to see them : / .

On March 19 2009 05:44 Spyfire242 wrote:
I don't think any race is harder to learn than another race, I do believe however that certain races suit certain players better, for example I played zerg for a very long time before I realized that Terran is better suited to my style of play and that I am much better with them, for me they are easier to learn and control than zerg but for someone else terran may be harder. And to the OP, maybe you are just unlucky I am sure there are many terrans out there willing to teach, id offer to but I am still learning myself so I am D+ at best.

On March 19 2009 06:15 FabledIntegral wrote:

By no means am I saying toss is an easy race to play... just easIER.

On March 19 2009 01:26 Chill wrote:
Yes Zerg is the hardest race to learn. If people are at a reasonable level I really like helping them because I know how long it takes to learn from experience only.

On March 19 2009 07:09 SkepTicAL wrote:
Ya terran is not much strategic thinking to it, just repetition of situations until you get good at it. There isn't much room to be creative mid/late game. That's why people make the joke terrans are robots, when in fact they need to be robots in order to consistently win. In the foreigner scene, I do believe terran is the hardest race to master because of the lack of insight we get compared to the koreans. Not trying to be bias or anything, but look at gg.net's ranking system(of course not terribly accurate but generally it gives decent insight), there are only 3 terrans in a list of 30 players, that says something right there.

On March 19 2009 06:47 Chill wrote:
I agree with your analysis. I've always the hardest part of learning each race is:
Terran - raw mechanics
Zerg - Larve management and army composition
Protoss - intuition

On March 19 2009 07:18 Naib wrote:


See, that's why Protoss is the hardest race - because you get a feel how the game flows, but you can't learn intuition unlike mechanics and army composition.

On March 19 2009 07:12 SkepTicAL wrote:
..... Ok progamer, how can it not be seen by the good foreign terrans than but somehow you have god's gift of seeing what the koreans do.

TvZ is the only m/u that comes to me where you can be creative with builds lately like fantasy and oov, but TvP and TvT are a pretty strict guideline that you cannot stray away from unless you wanna get skull bashed.

On March 19 2009 07:30 ramen247 wrote:


i never said i could see them as well. i am only saying that terran play goes much deeper than what the foreigners see. like a subtle switch in build order, or a brief army movement. all of them have a purpose that doesnt look very creative but definitely is.

the korean terran is very different from the foreigner terran in many ways.

On March 19 2009 02:29 StRyKeR wrote:
I think it's because we're underdogs in every ZvT matchup, even if it's the current most dominating Zerg player at the match up like Jaedong. We all have this anti-T angst and we let it out by helping as many Zergs as possible. There's also the map imbalance that no other race can really understand. Protoss have recently started bitching about Tears of the Moon as if Protoss deserved a better map pool, not understanding the shitfest of maps that Zergs have to deal with, every map which is basically pro-T. Baekmagoji, Sin Chupung-Ryeong, Rush Hour, etc., and in the best case the map is balanced.

And don't bring up maps like Blue Storm because that's like one exception out of like 20.

On March 19 2009 07:54 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:


Agreed. Zergs have a map-angst that no other race can understand.

Do realize that back in 2001-2003, the map pool was basically complete Terran biased. Ever wonder WHY the only good Zerg back then seemed to be YellOw? Ever wondered WHY we all love Hong Jin Ho despite his continuous stream of silvers? It's because he single-handedly held up the Zerg race in the face of some of the most imbalanced maps of the time....Lost Temple, Forte, Ragnorak, Rivalry, Hall of Valhalla, etc etc...If we took out YellOw's games on some those maps, those maps ZvT record drops anywhere from 5-10%...

Zergs have had to deal with a lot of crap from map imbalance, it's about time something like Tears of the Moon came around...

On March 19 2009 10:01 404.Nintu wrote:
Just read first page and I have to say,

There are tons of commentated Terran FPvods. Probably more than any of the other 2 races. wtf? Also, the Stylish thread alone is probably the most detailed and indepth race guide (on 2 MU's) in the foreign community. I find this thread strange.

On March 19 2009 10:06 sixghost wrote:

He means the general level of help in strat forum threads. Stylish alone doesn't mean terran matches zerg in this regard.

On March 19 2009 07:38 SkepTicAL wrote:
Dude those are necessary switches. A guy going tank+vulture TvT WILL get wraithed because that is the counter to stop that terran from moving forward, that isn't being creative, that is something you pick up through experience. What tech switches do you see in TvP, i see vulture+tank the entire time until arbs or carriers are out. TvT?? There's different combination to go but you should know what to do based on the map. Again, TvZ leaves room for creativity(look at upmagic) but that is the only way in which T can show their creativity.

Edit: What do you mean by a breif army movement? I would think moving your army around is neccesary. Can you stop sounding like a poet and give me some real situation examples please.

On March 19 2009 06:42 Sadist wrote:
Terran is less situation dependent and reactionary in most circumstances imo. Combine that with the fact that late game its incredibly hard to play/hold expansions etc. Zerg to me feels more like managing the game at least for the most part, I mean obviously you need decent enough control but at the lower-moderate level you dont really need to be fast or anything. Drone management and maybe defiler use would be the only real difficult tasks. Protoss is similar to zerg in that respect as well. With Terran IMO it feels like you have to attack THEM and that puts you at a disadvange a bit because you can get caught unsieged or out of position and cant run away and save your shit like the other races .Late game terran units are just difficult to control/use. Ultras basically rape shit with little effort and can run around the map, whereas toss can recall or have carriers or stuff that can snipe your expansions. Its also very difficult to come back in games since terrans harass is stopped relatively easy so you gotta try to goad the person into attacking you in an unfavorable position for them.

I dunno to me Terran is less about a guide and more playing mechanically perfect with micro/macro than the other races at least at lower levels. Early game Terran is far and away the least forgiving of the 3 races. I guess there are just little intricacies I dont really understand and I feel most if not all non-koreans dont understand. It seems to be that with zerg and toss you can kinda just do something and you can make it work out or at least not make you lose (unless its something retarded like going entirely goon vs 4 fact pure tank or something)whereas terran you can get fucked really hard early because of your build and be basically dead unless the opponent fucks up bad.

Ive definitely noticed more zerg players help each other out though, but above is my reasoning behind why terran is more difficult to get help with.

On March 19 2009 07:56 Zozma wrote:
Stop complaining. People will think we're terran.

On March 19 2009 03:12 Oystein wrote:
The terrans are to busy complaining about how overpowered the other races are to help others

On March 19 2009 10:16 404.Nintu wrote:

Considering a 37 page thread where a B+ Terran answers any and all questions you have, offering like 20 commenated vods with builds and tips.. That's precisely what I'm talking about, and yes, it's in a strat forum thread. Plus Petzerglings guide and vods, plus my vods.

I just find it kind of strange to hear that stuff when I feel like terran has way more guides in strat forum than Z. But whatever. =)

On March 19 2009 10:18 ramen247 wrote:



tvt can be creative. no one knew wtf boxer was trying to do until they finally saw it in action against hiya.

and creativity isnt just about unit combo -_-...

justcuz tvp is always vult tank until arbs or carriers doesnt mean all tvp is played the same way.
all terrans have their own style of tvp that is evident to the progamers themselves, but is harder to distinguish for us. that is how progamers can distinguish each other. whether it be a way that terran manuevers his army around the map, or the way the terran builds up to the timing point, those are all creativity based on their own style of play, but they are not immediately distinguishable.

A a terran plays more and more, they can find their inner sense and unleash it through their own gameplay, and that is how he will be identified by people-his style.

On March 19 2009 11:23 SkepTicAL wrote:


..... can you just admit that terran is the most limited when it comes to creativity? Moving your army a certain way and making supply depots isn't being creative, its a necessity. All i hear is this poetic fungshei(sp) stuff about swift movements and finding your inner self, hit me with some strong arguments to change my mind please.

P.S Where is boxer these days?

On March 19 2009 11:37 Kyo Yuy wrote:
I actually decided to play T after I gave up trying to learn PvZ. There's just so much variety in how the matchup is played and Protoss has to constantly react to the Zerg's changing strategy.

From what I've seen on TL, T tends to have the most rigorously defined build orders which can sometimes be carried all the way to max supply.

Although Terrans require the highest mechanics, I find that my APM is naturally higher playing Terran simply because I can do the exact same build every game and still win as long as my mechanics are significantly better than my opponent's. I can't really do that with PvZ - for example +1 speedzeal archon dies to lurkers so quickly it's not even funny, even though that's the only build I know how to do .

On March 19 2009 11:45 t_co wrote:
I think something really cool would be a "walk me through his head" of Flash, Fantasy, Forgg, FBH, Mind, or Sea in a game. I really liked how Idra was able to talk about game decisions behind the mechanics in games when he did live reports (e.g. talking about Flash v Kal on Medusa in WL, about how flash delayed 4th for a push).

Timing pushes aside, what other intuitive things can a T player do? Idra, Artosis?

On March 19 2009 11:31 ramen247 wrote:



alrite how about this?

tell me creative ways to play zerg.

no, rushes are not freking creative.

On March 19 2009 12:28 sixghost wrote:

Have you been watching some of these ZvTs lately? July has been doing shit like 2hatch lurker, switching into muta, then going guardians/hydra/lurk w/e he wants. He abused FBH and Light doing this kind of stuff.

ZvT has been so fun to watch lately, especially when July decided to do stuff like this. It's too bad all of this is coming at a time when Bio is less and less common.

Not to mention Hoejja using burrow in just about 50% of his games

On March 19 2009 06:42 Sadist wrote:
Terran is less situation dependent and reactionary in most circumstances imo. Combine that with the fact that late game its incredibly hard to play/hold expansions etc. Zerg to me feels more like managing the game at least for the most part, I mean obviously you need decent enough control but at the lower-moderate level you dont really need to be fast or anything. Drone management and maybe defiler use would be the only real difficult tasks. Protoss is similar to zerg in that respect as well. With Terran IMO it feels like you have to attack THEM and that puts you at a disadvange a bit because you can get caught unsieged or out of position and cant run away and save your shit like the other races .Late game terran units are just difficult to control/use. Ultras basically rape shit with little effort and can run around the map, whereas toss can recall or have carriers or stuff that can snipe your expansions. Its also very difficult to come back in games since terrans harass is stopped relatively easy so you gotta try to goad the person into attacking you in an unfavorable position for them.

I dunno to me Terran is less about a guide and more playing mechanically perfect with micro/macro than the other races at least at lower levels. Early game Terran is far and away the least forgiving of the 3 races. I guess there are just little intricacies I dont really understand and I feel most if not all non-koreans dont understand. It seems to be that with zerg and toss you can kinda just do something and you can make it work out or at least not make you lose (unless its something retarded like going entirely goon vs 4 fact pure tank or something)whereas terran you can get fucked really hard early because of your build and be basically dead unless the opponent fucks up bad.

Ive definitely noticed more zerg players help each other out though, but above is my reasoning behind why terran is more difficult to get help with.

On March 19 2009 13:06 Sadist wrote:
I know you arent fucking bitching.
Wraiths are made of fucking paper, stop crying. YOu arent playing anyone with good enough control to be able to abuse them enough to where they are a problem (you cry about wraiths...but what about mutalisks rofl)
How about you sacrifice an overlord, thats what everyone did before when terran teched, you know before zerg began abusing the fact that they knew terrans build without even scouting? ;D 2 Hydras at your ramp completely stops vul harass too, so stop bitching.

If you make a mistake early game as terran you are dead. Its that simple. Scourge and Muta rape marine med drops anyway, so I dont get what the problem is. Use lords placed in a big ass ring around the map like everyone did before on LT.

Stop bitching about zvt and go build some ultras or hold lurker.

On March 19 2009 13:06 Sadist wrote:
I know you arent fucking bitching.
Wraiths are made of fucking paper, stop crying. YOu arent playing anyone with good enough control to be able to abuse them enough to where they are a problem (you cry about wraiths...but what about mutalisks rofl)
How about you sacrifice an overlord, thats what everyone did before when terran teched, you know before zerg began abusing the fact that they knew terrans build without even scouting? ;D 2 Hydras at your ramp completely stops vul harass too, so stop bitching.

If you make a mistake early game as terran you are dead. Its that simple. Scourge and Muta rape marine med drops anyway, so I dont get what the problem is. Use lords placed in a big ass ring around the map like everyone did before on LT.

Stop bitching about zvt and go build some ultras or hold lurker.

On March 19 2009 13:10 IdrA wrote:
zerg players help more because they subconciously realize they are pathetic little girls for playing a race with a unit with infinite mana that can make you invincible and make all of your opponents units die in one hit. as such they crave reassurement that they are not utter failures at life, and so try to justify their existence by helping others.

terrans are manly men and have no such weak constitution.

On March 19 2009 13:22 Spyfire242 wrote:
If a 4 pool fails you deserve to lose, you knew that as soon as you decided to 4 pool.

Edit: I would not compare an 8rax to a 4pool..

On March 19 2009 06:47 Chill wrote:
I agree with your analysis. I've always thought that the hardest part of learning each race is:
Terran - raw mechanics
Zerg - Larve management and army composition
Protoss - intuition

On March 19 2009 13:39 AzureEye wrote:


Why do I deserve to lose if it fails? Doing 4 pool is not instant loss. There is a possibility that you might get an opponent. Its the same as 8 rax proxy, you do it because you know there is a chance that it might work. Its not "deserve" to lose, its "instant" lose if 4 pool fails.

Yes, you would not compare an 8proxy rax with 4 pool because that comparison supports the theory that its true that Z is less forgiving in ZvT and you play Terran.

On March 19 2009 13:37 Avidkeystamper wrote:

If it weren't for zerg in the first sentence, you could switch that to terran and we'd all be thinking Sci Vessels.

On March 19 2009 13:37 Avidkeystamper wrote:

If it weren't for zerg in the first sentence, you could switch that to terran and we'd all be thinking Sci Vessels.

On March 19 2009 14:05 Spyfire242 wrote:
And makes one unit semi invincible.

On March 19 2009 17:30 Last Romantic wrote:
Infinite amounts of defilers can never kill one vessel.

One vessel can kill infinite amounts of defilers.

Ergo, Terran is infinitely stronger than Zerg and it is only through miraculous power of will that the swarm wins at all.

On March 19 2009 17:30 Last Romantic wrote:
Infinite amounts of defilers can never kill one vessel.

One vessel can kill infinite amounts of defilers.

Ergo, Terran is infinitely stronger than Zerg and it is only through miraculous power of will that the swarm wins at all.

On March 19 2009 13:39 AzureEye wrote:


Why do I deserve to lose if it fails?

On March 19 2009 15:25 AttackZerg wrote:
Defilers against terran are by far the most powerfull spell caster in the game. Dear god I don't think I've played a terran I'm actually 'better' then in weeks yet I still win a decent amount.

On March 19 2009 19:31 IdrA wrote:
well if we're operating from the assumption that defilers are overpowered it makes perfect sense

On March 19 2009 21:22 Chill wrote:

If Defilers are overpowered and ZvT is balanced then there is either a massive game-wide skill disparity, or Lair Zerg is underpowered.

On March 19 2009 13:10 IdrA wrote:
zerg players help more because they subconciously realize they are pathetic little girls for playing a race with a unit with infinite mana that can make you invincible and make all of your opponents units die in one hit. as such they crave reassurement that they are not utter failures at life, and so try to justify their existence by helping others.

terrans are manly men and have no such weak constitution.

On March 20 2009 01:13 StylishVODs wrote:
Oh comon ofcourse lairtech-only is "unbalanced" in lategame. That's why you have the hivetech.
It doesn't mean hivetech is overpowered or that lairtech is underpowered. It means zerg has to combine it's tech to play the game.

It's like whining about marines being underpowered if they make no medics.
They also have to be combined to play the game at a decent level.

On March 20 2009 01:13 StylishVODs wrote:
Oh comon ofcourse lairtech-only is "unbalanced" in lategame. That's why you have the hivetech.
It doesn't mean hivetech is overpowered or that lairtech is underpowered. It means zerg has to combine it's tech to play the game.

It's like whining about marines being underpowered if they make no medics.
They also have to be combined to play the game at a decent level.

On March 20 2009 01:28 Neverborn wrote:


Well I think the basic idea was that zerg had to "survive" the lair phase so that he could put up a decent fight when he got to hive. Nowdays it seems like every zerg is well into hive tech by 12-13 minutes, but if I remember accurately, hive was often several minutes slower than that back in 2001-2002. I think we're looking at lair tech from different perspectives.

On March 20 2009 01:32 Chill wrote:

Did you notice the "If" in my sentence? Its ridiculousness is designed to refute Idra's baseless argument -_-

On March 20 2009 01:21 Megalisk wrote:


It's funny cause F91 owned your ass with little defiler play.

On March 20 2009 01:46 Zyarktodt wrote:


It's funny cuz F91 only used defilers in one game - and that was on Andromeda. I play zerg and even I have to admit F91 pretty much won that game after IdrA turtled like a noob against F91's high econ power drones. Defilers were pretty much the icing on the cake. So no, I didn't really see F91 own IdrA with defilers.

However, I did see him not own, but absolutely RAPE IdrA with mutas. So much for non-korean muta micro eh IdrA?

On March 19 2009 02:28 Naib wrote:
Soo, now that 1a2a3a is a bannable offense

On March 19 2009 19:10 Chill wrote:

You realize this makes no sense, right?

On March 19 2009 15:25 AttackZerg wrote:
Defilers against terran are by far the most powerfull spell caster in the game. Dear god I don't think I've played a terran I'm actually 'better' then in weeks yet I still win a decent amount.

On March 20 2009 05:41 AttackZerg wrote:


Sure it does.

Nydus + 3 defilers and less then 12 lurkers can camp any map with main-ramp-natural so well that even though my mechanics are comparably worse along with my micro/macro I can camp with defiler/lurker/scourge for DAYS and win. It takes a dozen tanks to plow threw a field of burrowed lurkers(splash) or alot of sci, while even just 3 gas gets me enough lurker/defiler-plague+swarm to turtle until ultras.

On March 20 2009 06:03 Oppa wrote:





+1