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First of all, excuse my relatively short answer to your huge post. As Plexa pointed out sAviOr's style of play, the impeccable timing, doing the right things the right moment, choosing the right strat/bo for the right moment, etc. etc. makes it look all the more rapy when he makes a single mistake and loses the game. That's what people keep forgetting, when they see sAviOr lose nowadays. They just don't know what it would've look like if what he had in mind had succeeded. And then they immediately start throwing around words like "pathetic", "horrible", etc., which really annoys me. Not because I'm a sAviOr fan. It annoys me because of their obvious lack of understanding the game and their respectless attitude towards one of the greatest players ever.
Unlike most people, I do firmly believe the things mentioned above are something sAviOr can and will get back. He's just gotta get the feel for it again. However, this takes time. It's not that I can't understand why people are expecting a "BAM! comeback" from someone like MJY. But it just doesn't work that way. Also, it takes a lot of televised games to find and play your game again. That's why I think it's a huge mistake by CJ Entus to try "preserving" sAviOr by not playing him as often as they should. Opposite to Flash, whose schedule probably really is too tight, I think that's exactly what sAviOr needs. He hast to PLAY. Again, and again, and gain. And then timing, strategic mastery, and everything that once made the Maestro great can become second nature to him again.
Btw. Plexa: I don't want to make a discussion out of it, but even though you put it in brackets, I don't think you should call Bisu a Bonjwa, yet. Not that I think that he'll ever become one, but that's just my personal opinion.
So long,
Moon
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On February 26 2009 23:04 Mooncat wrote:
Btw. Plexa: I don't want to make a discussion out of it, but even though you put it in brackets, I don't think you should call Bisu a Bonjwa, yet. Not that I think that he'll ever become one, but that's just my personal opinion. Ya, I agree, not yet. In the near future? Perhaps. That's why he's in brackets.
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On February 26 2009 22:45 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2009 22:40 Cpt.beefy wrote:
"I always read that Savior has "lost his grip on timing" but isn't it just Starcraft that has evolved again? "
Exactly, Savior timings were build over a year or so of standard play, couple that with immaculate micro and good macro and u have a Bonjwa.(of the time)
Saviors domination (especially over Toss) had nothing to do with anything, he was just reading the game over years of experience on standard play / timings.
Then efficient new builds were created with new timings and situations?
Which destroyed (a) his timings (b) his aura of invicibility/self-belief (something he said in a recent interview) In the end he only lost because he was winning for SOOO long. Eh? I disagree. TvZ didn't change one bit over the next 6~ months after GOM S1 so that can't account for Savior starting to lose to Terrans. And Protoss timings, well rather the Bisu Build, was designed to be completely anti-Saviors stlye - but it's not like FE was uncommon during Saviors reign - it was common throughout all of 2006. It was a mild adjustment to his standard play that would have solved all of his problems. It was much more the fact that he lost his confidence and hence grip on the game. Losing to Bisu and then FBH really really hurt and took a visible toll on Savior (and his game). With doubt now factored into the equation it isn't surprising that he couldn't get his timing precisely spot on like he needed it to be for his style to work.
Obviously his self-belief would be the biggest factor in his losing streak which is something i said actually, but your right TvZ hasn't changed one iota in the last year...
delayed hive tech due to better Terrans defensive turreting against muta delayin tactics, reintegrated mech-builds on maps that favour it, and don't... there are alot of other examples as to how this game has changed since savior lost to bisu all those moons ago. most are due to map, an' the rest is due to players peaking and falling/ self belief.
Im a little lost though, you disagree then state he couldn't get his timings right?
HUh?
You agree with I....
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On February 26 2009 22:55 monstar123 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2009 21:39 jello_biafra wrote:On February 26 2009 21:37 monstar123 wrote:
WTF are u talking about ?
Savior is bonjwa. How can he lose his throne ? Boxer - is nott deserves to be bonjwa. He is father of SC. I think he lost his throne quite some time ago. ok he lost his throne, but Boxer, Nada , OOv did not lose ?
i think you are confusing player nicknames e.g. the emperor, with the term bonjwa. nobody considers any of those players current day bonjwas, but they will always be remembered by their nicknames - the maestro, cheater, emperor, not sure of nadas lol..
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On February 26 2009 23:17 Cpt.beefy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2009 22:45 Plexa wrote:On February 26 2009 22:40 Cpt.beefy wrote:
"I always read that Savior has "lost his grip on timing" but isn't it just Starcraft that has evolved again? "
Exactly, Savior timings were build over a year or so of standard play, couple that with immaculate micro and good macro and u have a Bonjwa.(of the time)
Saviors domination (especially over Toss) had nothing to do with anything, he was just reading the game over years of experience on standard play / timings.
Then efficient new builds were created with new timings and situations?
Which destroyed (a) his timings (b) his aura of invicibility/self-belief (something he said in a recent interview) In the end he only lost because he was winning for SOOO long. Eh? I disagree. TvZ didn't change one bit over the next 6~ months after GOM S1 so that can't account for Savior starting to lose to Terrans. And Protoss timings, well rather the Bisu Build, was designed to be completely anti-Saviors stlye - but it's not like FE was uncommon during Saviors reign - it was common throughout all of 2006. It was a mild adjustment to his standard play that would have solved all of his problems. It was much more the fact that he lost his confidence and hence grip on the game. Losing to Bisu and then FBH really really hurt and took a visible toll on Savior (and his game). With doubt now factored into the equation it isn't surprising that he couldn't get his timing precisely spot on like he needed it to be for his style to work. Obviously his self-belief would be the biggest factor in his losing streak which is something i said actually, but your right TvZ hasn't changed one iota in the last year... delayed hive tech due to better Terrans defensive turreting against muta delayin tactics, reintegrated mech-builds on maps that favour it, and don't... there are alot of other examples as to how this game has changed since savior lost to bisu all those moons ago. most are due to map, an' the rest is due to players peaking and falling/ self belief. Im a little lost though, you disagree then state he couldn't get his timings right? HUh? You agree with I.... I agree that his timings were off, i disagree as to why they were off. I dont think the game changing had much to do with it (savior's reign encompassed 1gate -> FE play for instance) rather I think the far greater emphasis needs to be placed on his dwindling confidence. And no, I didn't say TvZ hasn't changed, I said from when Nada lost to Savior in Shinhan 3, TvZ didn't change that much over the next 6 months (which was saviors decline). For instance, Savior lost to Nada mere weeks after Shinhan 3 in Shinhan Masters which imo, was due to him losing vs Bisu not the change in TvZ gameplay.
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konadora
Singapore66286 Posts
Savior hasn't completely lost it, it's just that everyone has gotten good, hence his 'godliness' power level difference is someone significantly diminished. And hate to say it, but Zero did play better earlier today. Doesn't mean that because of this one bo5, Savior has lost his game sense. Or else, the 9 win streak wouldn't have been possible now would it?
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On February 26 2009 22:04 Tensai176 wrote:
I will always remember Savior from the quote someone said when he was playing him,
"I demanded myself composure and told myself, same old, same old, just another zerg, just another zerg."
I botched that quote up (sorry T_T), but honestly it sends shivers down your spine.
It was Hwasin I believe
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I agree that he lost his edge, but recently he has been playing a lot better. I wouldn`t go as far as denying him ever winning a star league again. I think he still has a chance.
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konadora
Singapore66286 Posts
On February 26 2009 23:48 minus_human wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2009 22:04 Tensai176 wrote:
I will always remember Savior from the quote someone said when he was playing him,
"I demanded myself composure and told myself, same old, same old, just another zerg, just another zerg."
I botched that quote up (sorry T_T), but honestly it sends shivers down your spine. It was Hwasin I believe
Didn't Savior call Hwasin his insurance or something? Or did I get the players mixed up?
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Savior always had fairly crappy ZvZ though. He was only at around 60% when he was at his peak, and that was back when their weren't many great ZvZers.
I still think he'll put in solid consistent results over the next year.
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On February 26 2009 23:27 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2009 23:17 Cpt.beefy wrote:On February 26 2009 22:45 Plexa wrote:On February 26 2009 22:40 Cpt.beefy wrote:
"I always read that Savior has "lost his grip on timing" but isn't it just Starcraft that has evolved again? "
Exactly, Savior timings were build over a year or so of standard play, couple that with immaculate micro and good macro and u have a Bonjwa.(of the time)
Saviors domination (especially over Toss) had nothing to do with anything, he was just reading the game over years of experience on standard play / timings.
Then efficient new builds were created with new timings and situations?
Which destroyed (a) his timings (b) his aura of invicibility/self-belief (something he said in a recent interview) In the end he only lost because he was winning for SOOO long. Eh? I disagree. TvZ didn't change one bit over the next 6~ months after GOM S1 so that can't account for Savior starting to lose to Terrans. And Protoss timings, well rather the Bisu Build, was designed to be completely anti-Saviors stlye - but it's not like FE was uncommon during Saviors reign - it was common throughout all of 2006. It was a mild adjustment to his standard play that would have solved all of his problems. It was much more the fact that he lost his confidence and hence grip on the game. Losing to Bisu and then FBH really really hurt and took a visible toll on Savior (and his game). With doubt now factored into the equation it isn't surprising that he couldn't get his timing precisely spot on like he needed it to be for his style to work. Obviously his self-belief would be the biggest factor in his losing streak which is something i said actually, but your right TvZ hasn't changed one iota in the last year... delayed hive tech due to better Terrans defensive turreting against muta delayin tactics, reintegrated mech-builds on maps that favour it, and don't... there are alot of other examples as to how this game has changed since savior lost to bisu all those moons ago. most are due to map, an' the rest is due to players peaking and falling/ self belief. Im a little lost though, you disagree then state he couldn't get his timings right? HUh? You agree with I.... I agree that his timings were off, i disagree as to why they were off. I dont think the game changing had much to do with it (savior's reign encompassed 1gate -> FE play for instance) rather I think the far greater emphasis needs to be placed on his dwindling confidence. And no, I didn't say TvZ hasn't changed, I said from when Nada lost to Savior in Shinhan 3, TvZ didn't change that much over the next 6 months (which was saviors decline). For instance, Savior lost to Nada mere weeks after Shinhan 3 in Shinhan Masters which imo, was due to him losing vs Bisu not the change in TvZ gameplay.
ok
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Lovely read, but I have to agree with Plexa.
Saviors dominance was because he was the first Zerg to truly understand perfect timing, simply put, he was the first to know when to drone whore and when to make units and what combinations.
Personally I also think this is why he was one of the only zergs with low apm and one of the only pro zergs to really use sunkens because he just had a little extra drones which meant he could get away with it. And the sunkens would again make it easier for him to defend and he could handle "fast" players with his relatively "slow" hands.
Jaedong is a player that has extremely fast hands and he has the timing of Savior (possibly better) so he dosent even have to make extra sunkens (see Jaedong vs Bisu @ Bluestorm), which gives him an even bigger advantage.
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I still hope that Savior would make another comeback 
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On February 26 2009 23:50 konadora wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2009 23:48 minus_human wrote:On February 26 2009 22:04 Tensai176 wrote:
I will always remember Savior from the quote someone said when he was playing him,
"I demanded myself composure and told myself, same old, same old, just another zerg, just another zerg."
I botched that quote up (sorry T_T), but honestly it sends shivers down your spine. It was Hwasin I believe Didn't Savior call Hwasin his insurance or something? Or did I get the players mixed up?
that was bisu after (iirc) he raped him with scouts.
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On February 26 2009 21:33 Plexa wrote:
Every Bonjwa has a sense about them which allows them to excel in a particular area. For Boxer is was Micro, for Nada it was Management, for Oov it was Macro, for Savior is was Timing (and for Bisu it is harass in my opinion). This sense later disappears as it is permeated about the progaming scene and becomes common place amongst other gamers and hence they lose their star quality. Nevertheless, they will remain champions and will always be a threat no matter what age they live in.
The funny thing there is that a) harass messes up timing (which is why Bisu is a hard counter to Savior's style) and b) harass isn't really something that gets better or worse over time. Harass is always harass, and player can play to use it or not use it, perhaps why Bisu will have a longer reign of terror than other dominant players.
And the style that would counter Bisu's hard harass style is a solid defense. Flash's defense is the most perfect defense of any player that I've seen yet Bisu has beat him multiple times.
Just my comment, I could write bunches about it but I don't have time right now.
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I think we are jumping to conclusions about Savior here. First of all, he lost a ZvZ Bo5 against one of the best muta microers in the game (yes, Zero has some of the best muta micro in the game, i'm saying that right now). I don't even care about that series at this point, as it is a ZvZ. His play recently against other races has been superb. His recent game against Sangho in the WL was ART. He was everywhere at once, and there was absolutely nothing Sangho could do about it. He lost expo after expo, then couldn't even take out the raiding force. It was really something to watch. I personally did not see Savior in the prime of his career (I started actively following the pro scene after Mind raped Bisu in that MSL final (GOM?)), but he looks really freaking good right about now. His series against Upmagic should show that his timing isn't gone. Those attacks (in the victories) were at the PERFECT time between when Upmagic had no units and inadequate amounts of turrets to hold anything off. I'm a huge Upmagic fan, so I'm giving huge props to Savior in that regard.
And for the record, I do think Savior will win another Starleague.
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Losing a bo5 zvz doesn't mean that you suck or you won't win anything in the future.
A zvt or a zvp reveals way more about the real level of the player.
Mirrors aren't a really valuable information about player skill.
Look at Reach. He is still imo a great decent pvp player but his pvz is absolutly horrid and his pvt is meh.
Does it make him a top protoss ?
No no no.
For the same reason there are lot of really great z players who aren't that good at zvz. Jaedong and Lux are the only players i auto-bet in zvz because they are dominant whereas the average z player is ... average at zvz. Even July has an average zvz ( at this level ) whereas he is still a beast in his others mu ( especially zvp ).
Good read though.
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I agree 100% with the OP
still holding out hope for savior coming back to dominance though (even if its unlikely)
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Valhalla18444 Posts
Savior played pretty good tonight.
But Zero played fucking great. That ZvZ was Jaedong level, or possibly even above. This kid has major, major talent.
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I agree with Plexa and his first post was amazing imo.
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EPT
