I was going to post this in the LR thread but it got bigger so I felt it deserved a full thread. Unlike most (but not all) Savior fans I've been realistic about MJY 2009 edition from the start. But of course I still hoped against hope for a better result. I know a lot of people are tired of Savior threads and Savior fans. But I think this deserves to be said.
Now that Savior's latest MSL run is over, I think it's fairly safe to say that he'll never win another Starleague. He'll still be a really good player (he's both overrated and underrated much more often than properly rated, but realistically, most days he's a top 5 or borderline top 5 Zerg who has a chance to win against almost anyone). He'll be seeded in the next MSL and can definitely still make another RO8 or two - maaaaybe even more.
The shame in this latest loss is that it's official. People who started watching SC in March 2007 or later will never, never truly understand why Savior is, or was, a truly unique player. People understand why the other bonjwas are special:
Boxer is the Emperor, the original and forever king of SC. Every great micro play and brilliant build has a little Boxer in it, and we remember him each time it happens, even if we don't get to see him play that much anymore. And of course, once in awhile we're still lucky enough to see it happen.
Nada is the phenom before the phenom, the first iteration of the child wonder a la Flash, winningest and most consistent player ever. Every upcoming Terran phenom will forever remind us of what Nada was once, and his incredibly consistency means we get to see a decent amount of him even today. If Flash goes on to become the greatest player ever (if BW doesn't die because of SC2, I think he'll get there eventually), Nada's legacy will live on all the more. But that's not at all necessary - Nada will forever be defined by winning. As long as winning is a part of SC, Nada will be remembered, and remembered well.
Oov is the true greatest revolutionist. He changed the way the entire game was played - every single matchup (except ZvZ). The entire game is now a continuous tribute to Oov. Every macro monster is forever linked to him. Every monster winning streak will forever remind us of the great Cheater Terran. Boxer made SC, and Oov remade it into a "final" form in some sense. The game will keep evolving but monster macro, even if it becomes 10 times more refined than what Oov first introduced, will always be a part of the game. And, due to the commentator controlled view of matches, there will always be that element of "surprise, giant army!", and we'll always remember Oov when that happens.
You guys gotta understand - the game may have been different back in 2006, but it wasn't THAT different. Savior's macro might merely be average now relative to the field, but the things he did to win games back then would STILL WIN GAMES NOW. The Bisu game was a passable example of this - a little scrappier than the dominant Maestro of 2006, but still acceptable. Savior controlled that game and it's the tension from it being Bisu versus Savior in 2009 instead of some Protoss versus Savior in 2006 that made the difference between us seeing it as a dominant performance by the Maestro who always wins all his coin flips and created his own luck 5 times a game, and a scrappy, close match eeked out by an underdog. I mean, come on, I know the game was reasonably close but Bisu was ELIMINATED. The greatest Protoss player to ever play the game was straight up eliminated in a non-fluke situation (such as base trade)!
This brings me to my main point. The loss to SC isn't that Savior doesn't win leagues anymore. The loss to SC is that Savior's sixth sense, the intangible force that defined his reign of terror will never be back. You can try to explain Savior's bonjwa reign, but it never feels completely satisfying. Sometimes you just can't explain things with words.
I casually ran into SC VODs all the time starting in 2002, but didn't really start watching consistently until 2006. I hadn't played the game for five years at the time and had no idea what was going on in the games. But, when I watched Savior play, I knew he was winning. Even before I had any idea who he was, and had any knowledge whatsoever of the SC proscene, I saw this guy whose aka was Savior play, and I could tell he was the best. I'll never quite understand it, and it is impossible to explain. It's not like I only watched his wins, and it's not like I watched them hand him a giant trophy or check after games. I just saw the games and it registered with me, somehow, some way. It was a long time before I recognized any other players and started looking to places like TL to learn more about the proscene. But I knew Savior was the best player at the time, even before I knew what a Starleague was.
And, more importantly, I knew Savior had some sort of remarkable game sense, something that couldn't be explained. Indeed I wasn't even surprised when I started reading about him on places like TL and discovered that other people, even those who followed progaming much more closely than me, couldn't quite explain it either.
We might get perfect players one day but we'll never see another player with that kind of sense. It can't be taught. It's like winning the lottery - it's astounding enough that it even happened once!
Just look at SC's evolution. It's inconceivable that the game would never have a micro revolutionist (the first obvious thing to become amazing at), or a macro revolutionist (the next level), or these micro/macro hybrid monsters that also know timings and builds and all-ins by heart. If people kept playing long enough, it was bound to happen. And indeed that's what happened. Even creative builds are just that - creative. Certainly they are extremely impressive, but play the game long enough and every creative build will show up, eventually. Of course we're a long way from exhausting them all, but that's not the point. If you had infinite time to build a program on a computer with virtually unlimited processing power to play SC, you could build yourself each player in history. Except Savior.
And that's why people love him even now, and that's why it's truly truly sad that while he may still reach another RO8 or two, the 'Maestro' will never be back. Because unlike other players, it doesn't feel like Savior "had to happen". Boxer had to happen - somebody had to be the father of the game for it to survive the beginning, and he happened to take on that role. Nada had to happen - someone has to be the winningest player ever. Maybe not as early as Nada, but it was bound to happen. Oov had to happen - macro is such a fundamental part of SC the game as a science that the emergence of an Oov was as inevitable as someone eventually discovering gravity. I say these things without meaning to take away one ounce of what Boxer, Nada, and Oov did. What they did was truly unique, and they deserve all the credit in the world for being the people to do it. They will always be legends, and deservedly so.
Michael Jordan didn't win the most championships in NBA history or score the most points (though he is #1 in average), but still he stands out above Russell, Wilt, Baylor, Kareem, Magic, Bird, and even now LeBron, Kobe, Wade, and more. It's because while great players and winning players had to happen, Michael Jordan didn't have to happen. He just happened, and people were all the luckier to have gotten to see it. It seems inconceivable that anyone will ever supplant Jordan in the public mind, even if man-machines like LeBron come along and shatter all preconceptions of what is possible for a human being. Yes, this is partly a byproduct of being in the right place at the right time, but that's how everything works in the world.
Same goes for Savior. Savior didn't have to happen. He was an anomaly, a tangent, a detour, taken by the game on the way to it becoming more science than art, on the way to the skill level of the playing field becoming so high that bonjwa-level dominance seems unlikely to ever happen again. Watching Savior in his prime was like watching a meteor shower without understanding what it is. You can't quite explain it so you just sit back and enjoy the show. Like every other bonjwa, the playing field caught up to Savior. But, unlike the other bonjwas, it also feels like Savior lost his throne just as much as it was taken from him. The spark that made him special, the spark that started to fade after Bisu 3-0'd him - it never ever came back. Still, Savior was in the right place at the right time, and he made the most of it.
Interesting point to make although I disagree that Savior didn't have to happen. Savior specialized in the art of timing - a fundamental part of the game today. Savior was a unique player who lived his entire bonjwa career on a knife edge. He was able to conjure up the exact right combination of units at the exact right time to win his games. Perfect examples of this lie in Savior vs Daezang on Peaks and Savior vs Nada on Longinus.
Savior's ability to wait right up until the last possible moment to engage with the bare minimum units to stave off the attack - and then ride his advantage from winning the battle to victory - made for some of the most breathtaking moments in all of Starcraft. Obviously, once he started to lose his immaculate grip on timing (and hence his sense) his games started to look like complete rapes (as he was caught with too few units and what not). Of course no one expects Savior to return to this truly amazing state, but him winning another league is not inconceivable - once a champion, always a champion.
The timing Savior had in his day, is now commonplace amongst all the top players - perhaps to a lesser extent than it was in Savior, but its still there. Look at Jaedong's play for instance, during his golden run last year around this time, he was able to stall terran long enough with his mutalisk harass to build up an impressive army and win. His ability to maximize damage with very few units requires precision timing in when to engage, and then when to power drones and what not. This, in my opinion, is the direct result of Savior. Every top gamer now possesses this art of timing and thus is able to keep winning games like Savior did. Another example i just thought of is Flash vs Stork in the Bacchus group stage on Blue Storm.
Savior had to happen, his immaculate timing is one of the fundamental aspects of top tier gaming in today environment - just as much as macro or micro.
Every Bonjwa has a sense about them which allows them to excel in a particular area. For Boxer is was Micro, for Nada it was Management, for Oov it was Macro, for Savior is was Timing (and for Bisu it is harass in my opinion). This sense later disappears as it is permeated about the progaming scene and becomes common place amongst other gamers and hence they lose their star quality. Nevertheless, they will remain champions and will always be a threat no matter what age they live in.
On February 26 2009 21:37 monstar123 wrote: WTF are u talking about ? Savior is bonjwa. How can he lose his throne ? Boxer - is nott deserves to be bonjwa. He is father of SC.
Great post. I remember watching Savior play and thought it was so perfect, so flawless, that I couldn't conceive of a way he could be beaten. It was the way he always incorporated these little nuances I had thought uncontrollable and insignificant into a larger, cohesive game plan, and how he seemed to have a plan for everything. From the way he consistently owned a prime oov, absorbing and deflecting every big terran blob with defiler control to his calm handling of every trick Nal_Ra could throw at him, I thought he was the final incarnation of the evolution of BW. I completely despaired of finding an opponent that could restore balance to the BW world.
evolution of sc is like a never stopping train, once you get off its really hard to catch it up again. But this is just another version of the truth. I think the main reason for savior fading away is that he lost the aura of immortality around him. This happens all the time in other sports as well, for example the tennis. Its not like Federer is playing bad, just his opponents dont have the "oh, god I'm playing vs Federer, I will lose fore sure" mind set anymore. Sometimes your reputation is just enough to win you games... Thou beating bisu, really warmed the hearts of his fans
ouch spoiler... yea i remember watching a few of saviors old vods and it seems to be as though he has maphack on or something, abit like the elite few players today who can catch sneakdrops/proxies etc. magically at exactly the right timing.
On February 26 2009 21:33 Plexa wrote: Savior's ability to wait right up until the last possible moment to engage with the bare minimum units to stave off the attack - and then ride his advantage from winning the battle to victory - made for some of the most breathtaking moments in all of Starcraft. Obviously, once he started to lose his immaculate grip on timing (and hence his sense) his games started to look like complete rapes (as he was caught with too few units and what not). Of course no one expects Savior to return to this truly amazing state, but him winning another league is not inconceivable - once a champion, always a champion.
The timing Savior had in his day, is now commonplace amongst all the top players - perhaps to a lesser extent than it was in Savior, but its still there. Look at Jaedong's play for instance, during his golden run last year around this time, he was able to stall terran long enough with his mutalisk harass to build up an impressive army and win. His ability to maximize damage with very few units requires precision timing in when to engage, and then when to power drones and what not. This, in my opinion, is the direct result of Savior. Every top gamer now possesses this art of timing and thus is able to keep winning games like Savior did. Another example i just thought of is Flash vs Stork in the Bacchus group stage on Blue Storm.
I always read that Savior has "lost his grip on timing" but isn't it just Starcraft that has evolved again? Maybe the reason Savior reigned when he did is because it was such an era of standard play. Not the same standard play we see nowadays, but the older less refined standard play. The one that doesn't have years and years of feedback to make it easily "tweakable" based on the situation. In an age when timing pushes are so much more common at all levels, the standard builds have got to adapt and players no longer crumble when their opponents know exactly how far ahead they are in their tech.
Of course Saviors genius wasn't about just beating brainless standard play. It was much more complex, but I totally agree when you say that great timing is seen much more frequently nowadays. However I think it's been taken to a whole new level. Now players time their moves more precisely because they can assimilate more information. I'll use you're example of stalling a terran with mutalisk harass. The amount of damage done with those mutas will enable the player to know exactly how much the terran was delayed in his tech, thus telling him when he has to make his next move and how urgent it is for him to reach hive tech. I think this used to be more about feeling, but nowadays it just seems so much more precise and rigorous. It feels like it's been made into a science, not just instinct.
Feel free to tell me if i'm mistaken, although i've been following the scene for about 5/6 years now i've had some pretty long breaks so I must have missed some important stuff going on.
On February 26 2009 21:33 Plexa wrote: Savior's ability to wait right up until the last possible moment to engage with the bare minimum units to stave off the attack - and then ride his advantage from winning the battle to victory - made for some of the most breathtaking moments in all of Starcraft. Obviously, once he started to lose his immaculate grip on timing (and hence his sense) his games started to look like complete rapes (as he was caught with too few units and what not). Of course no one expects Savior to return to this truly amazing state, but him winning another league is not inconceivable - once a champion, always a champion.
The timing Savior had in his day, is now commonplace amongst all the top players - perhaps to a lesser extent than it was in Savior, but its still there. Look at Jaedong's play for instance, during his golden run last year around this time, he was able to stall terran long enough with his mutalisk harass to build up an impressive army and win. His ability to maximize damage with very few units requires precision timing in when to engage, and then when to power drones and what not. This, in my opinion, is the direct result of Savior. Every top gamer now possesses this art of timing and thus is able to keep winning games like Savior did. Another example i just thought of is Flash vs Stork in the Bacchus group stage on Blue Storm.
I always read that Savior has "lost his grip on timing" but isn't it just Starcraft that has evolved again? Maybe the reason Savior reigned when he did is because it was such an era of standard play. Not the same standard play we see nowadays, but the older less refined standard play. The one that doesn't have years and years of feedback to make it easily "tweakable" based on the situation. In an age when timing pushes are so much more common at all levels, the standard builds have got to adapt and players no longer crumble when their opponents know exactly how far ahead they are in their tech.
Of course Saviors genius wasn't about just beating brainless standard play. It was much more complex, but I totally agree when you say that great timing is seen much more frequently nowadays. However I think it's been taken to a whole new level. Now players time their moves more precisely because they can assimilate more information. I'll use you're example of stalling a terran with mutalisk harass. The amount of damage done with those mutas will enable the player to know exactly how much the terran was delayed in his tech, thus telling him when he has to make his next move and how urgent it is for him to reach hive tech. I think this used to be more about feeling, but nowadays it just seems so much more precise and rigorous. It feels like it's been made into a science, not just instinct.
Feel free to tell me if i'm mistaken, although i've been following the scene for about 5/6 years now i've had some pretty long breaks so I must have missed some important stuff going on.
It was timing int he conventional sense, it was reading the game and knowing precisely what to expect and when to expect it and what he needed to defend it. I mean Jaedong's mutalisk harass was a very poor example to use, it was just the first one that popped into my head haha. Stork vs Flash on Blue Storm from Bacchus group stage is a much better example of what Savior imparted on the scene.
Where you say this game is all about science you are completely and utterly wrong. Micro/Macro is such an important facet of this game, I'll agree, but it is no where near a science. Two examples come to mind; Best vs Flash from the OSL recent - all logic tells us Best would lose after canceling the Nexus but no, he won. And another is a game that i saw on Protoss Season 4
Explain to me how Best managed to win that game - because I have nooo idea. (Best vs Much on Hwarangdo btw)
Reading the game is so important these days, more so than plain old micro/macro and despite the perception the game is all about micro/macro we still have some players constantly performing better than others. Jaedong/Bisu/Flash/Stork have performed almost unwaveringly over the past year and its not because they have the best micro/macro. They have the ability to read the game, understand the game, and know when and where things are going to happen just like Savior could do in his prime. This allows them to be on another level to other gamers. Other players come and go with this sense - it's the nature of being in-form and out of form, but those four have it instinctively and is a fundamental part of their play style. And even between them there is such contrast is style between Bisu and Stork, and indeed between all four. It's just how rich this game has become once you move beyond the notion that the game is a science - it is without question an art form; each game a canvas ready to be painted with the brilliance of the gamers playing.
Except Backho, Backho is raw mechanics, zero game sense.
"I always read that Savior has "lost his grip on timing" but isn't it just Starcraft that has evolved again? "
Exactly, Savior timings were build over a year or so of standard play, couple that with immaculate micro and good macro and u have a Bonjwa.(of the time)
Saviors domination (especially over Toss) had nothing to do with anything, he was just reading the game over years of experience on standard play / timings.
Then efficient new builds were created with new timings and situations? Which destroyed (a) his timings (b) his aura of invicibility/self-belief (something he said in a recent interview) In the end he only lost because he was winning for SOOO long.
The words he spoke that day will forever bring a smile to my face not because he was beaten today but because he announced to every SC player that he regained his self-belief. Don't see this loss as THE END OF MAESTRO, just....... THE maestro losing,
Things are CONSTANTLY evolving in SC/BW and it will continue to evolve until we come full circle. Macro>Micro. Timings>Macro. Etc....
Btw I am a Bisu fan-boy but like everyone that enjoys this game, I WANT change, I WANT new player to come fort and beat my fanboy heroes. I WANT evolution and new things to try and to learn.
Thats why were still playin'....... Right?
Edit: Besides he lost a ZvZ big fucking deal, his last game was his own fault WHY O' WHY he made hactery first with a 2/1 deficet, I will never understand...
On February 26 2009 22:40 Cpt.beefy wrote: "I always read that Savior has "lost his grip on timing" but isn't it just Starcraft that has evolved again? "
Exactly, Savior timings were build over a year or so of standard play, couple that with immaculate micro and good macro and u have a Bonjwa.(of the time)
Saviors domination (especially over Toss) had nothing to do with anything, he was just reading the game over years of experience on standard play / timings.
Then efficient new builds were created with new timings and situations? Which destroyed (a) his timings (b) his aura of invicibility/self-belief (something he said in a recent interview) In the end he only lost because he was winning for SOOO long.
Eh? I disagree. TvZ didn't change one bit over the next 6~ months after GOM S1 so that can't account for Savior starting to lose to Terrans. And Protoss timings, well rather the Bisu Build, was designed to be completely anti-Saviors stlye - but it's not like FE was uncommon during Saviors reign - it was common throughout all of 2006. It was a mild adjustment to his standard play that would have solved all of his problems.
It was much more the fact that he lost his confidence and hence grip on the game. Losing to Bisu and then FBH really really hurt and took a visible toll on Savior (and his game). With doubt now factored into the equation it isn't surprising that he couldn't get his timing precisely spot on like he needed it to be for his style to work.
On February 26 2009 21:37 monstar123 wrote: WTF are u talking about ? Savior is bonjwa. How can he lose his throne ? Boxer - is nott deserves to be bonjwa. He is father of SC.
I think he lost his throne quite some time ago.
ok he lost his throne, but Boxer, Nada , OOv did not lose ?
I always felt the fall of Savior was primarly due to what happened outside of the game, rather than in but unfortunately we would never know... until Rekrul made that nightlife post, while many laughed at it as a joke I really think there was a deep hard cold truth to it.
First of all, excuse my relatively short answer to your huge post. As Plexa pointed out sAviOr's style of play, the impeccable timing, doing the right things the right moment, choosing the right strat/bo for the right moment, etc. etc. makes it look all the more rapy when he makes a single mistake and loses the game. That's what people keep forgetting, when they see sAviOr lose nowadays. They just don't know what it would've look like if what he had in mind had succeeded. And then they immediately start throwing around words like "pathetic", "horrible", etc., which really annoys me. Not because I'm a sAviOr fan. It annoys me because of their obvious lack of understanding the game and their respectless attitude towards one of the greatest players ever.
Unlike most people, I do firmly believe the things mentioned above are something sAviOr can and will get back. He's just gotta get the feel for it again. However, this takes time. It's not that I can't understand why people are expecting a "BAM! comeback" from someone like MJY. But it just doesn't work that way. Also, it takes a lot of televised games to find and play your game again. That's why I think it's a huge mistake by CJ Entus to try "preserving" sAviOr by not playing him as often as they should. Opposite to Flash, whose schedule probably really is too tight, I think that's exactly what sAviOr needs. He hast to PLAY. Again, and again, and gain. And then timing, strategic mastery, and everything that once made the Maestro great can become second nature to him again.
Btw. Plexa: I don't want to make a discussion out of it, but even though you put it in brackets, I don't think you should call Bisu a Bonjwa, yet. Not that I think that he'll ever become one, but that's just my personal opinion.
On February 26 2009 23:04 Mooncat wrote: Btw. Plexa: I don't want to make a discussion out of it, but even though you put it in brackets, I don't think you should call Bisu a Bonjwa, yet. Not that I think that he'll ever become one, but that's just my personal opinion.
Ya, I agree, not yet. In the near future? Perhaps. That's why he's in brackets.
On February 26 2009 22:40 Cpt.beefy wrote: "I always read that Savior has "lost his grip on timing" but isn't it just Starcraft that has evolved again? "
Exactly, Savior timings were build over a year or so of standard play, couple that with immaculate micro and good macro and u have a Bonjwa.(of the time)
Saviors domination (especially over Toss) had nothing to do with anything, he was just reading the game over years of experience on standard play / timings.
Then efficient new builds were created with new timings and situations? Which destroyed (a) his timings (b) his aura of invicibility/self-belief (something he said in a recent interview) In the end he only lost because he was winning for SOOO long.
Eh? I disagree. TvZ didn't change one bit over the next 6~ months after GOM S1 so that can't account for Savior starting to lose to Terrans. And Protoss timings, well rather the Bisu Build, was designed to be completely anti-Saviors stlye - but it's not like FE was uncommon during Saviors reign - it was common throughout all of 2006. It was a mild adjustment to his standard play that would have solved all of his problems.
It was much more the fact that he lost his confidence and hence grip on the game. Losing to Bisu and then FBH really really hurt and took a visible toll on Savior (and his game). With doubt now factored into the equation it isn't surprising that he couldn't get his timing precisely spot on like he needed it to be for his style to work.
Obviously his self-belief would be the biggest factor in his losing streak which is something i said actually, but your right TvZ hasn't changed one iota in the last year... delayed hive tech due to better Terrans defensive turreting against muta delayin tactics, reintegrated mech-builds on maps that favour it, and don't... there are alot of other examples as to how this game has changed since savior lost to bisu all those moons ago. most are due to map, an' the rest is due to players peaking and falling/ self belief.
Im a little lost though, you disagree then state he couldn't get his timings right?
On February 26 2009 21:37 monstar123 wrote: WTF are u talking about ? Savior is bonjwa. How can he lose his throne ? Boxer - is nott deserves to be bonjwa. He is father of SC.
I think he lost his throne quite some time ago.
ok he lost his throne, but Boxer, Nada , OOv did not lose ?
i think you are confusing player nicknames e.g. the emperor, with the term bonjwa. nobody considers any of those players current day bonjwas, but they will always be remembered by their nicknames - the maestro, cheater, emperor, not sure of nadas lol..
On February 26 2009 22:40 Cpt.beefy wrote: "I always read that Savior has "lost his grip on timing" but isn't it just Starcraft that has evolved again? "
Exactly, Savior timings were build over a year or so of standard play, couple that with immaculate micro and good macro and u have a Bonjwa.(of the time)
Saviors domination (especially over Toss) had nothing to do with anything, he was just reading the game over years of experience on standard play / timings.
Then efficient new builds were created with new timings and situations? Which destroyed (a) his timings (b) his aura of invicibility/self-belief (something he said in a recent interview) In the end he only lost because he was winning for SOOO long.
Eh? I disagree. TvZ didn't change one bit over the next 6~ months after GOM S1 so that can't account for Savior starting to lose to Terrans. And Protoss timings, well rather the Bisu Build, was designed to be completely anti-Saviors stlye - but it's not like FE was uncommon during Saviors reign - it was common throughout all of 2006. It was a mild adjustment to his standard play that would have solved all of his problems.
It was much more the fact that he lost his confidence and hence grip on the game. Losing to Bisu and then FBH really really hurt and took a visible toll on Savior (and his game). With doubt now factored into the equation it isn't surprising that he couldn't get his timing precisely spot on like he needed it to be for his style to work.
Obviously his self-belief would be the biggest factor in his losing streak which is something i said actually, but your right TvZ hasn't changed one iota in the last year... delayed hive tech due to better Terrans defensive turreting against muta delayin tactics, reintegrated mech-builds on maps that favour it, and don't... there are alot of other examples as to how this game has changed since savior lost to bisu all those moons ago. most are due to map, an' the rest is due to players peaking and falling/ self belief.
Im a little lost though, you disagree then state he couldn't get his timings right?
HUh?
You agree with I....
I agree that his timings were off, i disagree as to why they were off. I dont think the game changing had much to do with it (savior's reign encompassed 1gate -> FE play for instance) rather I think the far greater emphasis needs to be placed on his dwindling confidence. And no, I didn't say TvZ hasn't changed, I said from when Nada lost to Savior in Shinhan 3, TvZ didn't change that much over the next 6 months (which was saviors decline). For instance, Savior lost to Nada mere weeks after Shinhan 3 in Shinhan Masters which imo, was due to him losing vs Bisu not the change in TvZ gameplay.
Savior hasn't completely lost it, it's just that everyone has gotten good, hence his 'godliness' power level difference is someone significantly diminished. And hate to say it, but Zero did play better earlier today. Doesn't mean that because of this one bo5, Savior has lost his game sense. Or else, the 9 win streak wouldn't have been possible now would it?
I agree that he lost his edge, but recently he has been playing a lot better. I wouldn`t go as far as denying him ever winning a star league again. I think he still has a chance.
On February 26 2009 22:40 Cpt.beefy wrote: "I always read that Savior has "lost his grip on timing" but isn't it just Starcraft that has evolved again? "
Exactly, Savior timings were build over a year or so of standard play, couple that with immaculate micro and good macro and u have a Bonjwa.(of the time)
Saviors domination (especially over Toss) had nothing to do with anything, he was just reading the game over years of experience on standard play / timings.
Then efficient new builds were created with new timings and situations? Which destroyed (a) his timings (b) his aura of invicibility/self-belief (something he said in a recent interview) In the end he only lost because he was winning for SOOO long.
Eh? I disagree. TvZ didn't change one bit over the next 6~ months after GOM S1 so that can't account for Savior starting to lose to Terrans. And Protoss timings, well rather the Bisu Build, was designed to be completely anti-Saviors stlye - but it's not like FE was uncommon during Saviors reign - it was common throughout all of 2006. It was a mild adjustment to his standard play that would have solved all of his problems.
It was much more the fact that he lost his confidence and hence grip on the game. Losing to Bisu and then FBH really really hurt and took a visible toll on Savior (and his game). With doubt now factored into the equation it isn't surprising that he couldn't get his timing precisely spot on like he needed it to be for his style to work.
Obviously his self-belief would be the biggest factor in his losing streak which is something i said actually, but your right TvZ hasn't changed one iota in the last year... delayed hive tech due to better Terrans defensive turreting against muta delayin tactics, reintegrated mech-builds on maps that favour it, and don't... there are alot of other examples as to how this game has changed since savior lost to bisu all those moons ago. most are due to map, an' the rest is due to players peaking and falling/ self belief.
Im a little lost though, you disagree then state he couldn't get his timings right?
HUh?
You agree with I....
I agree that his timings were off, i disagree as to why they were off. I dont think the game changing had much to do with it (savior's reign encompassed 1gate -> FE play for instance) rather I think the far greater emphasis needs to be placed on his dwindling confidence. And no, I didn't say TvZ hasn't changed, I said from when Nada lost to Savior in Shinhan 3, TvZ didn't change that much over the next 6 months (which was saviors decline). For instance, Savior lost to Nada mere weeks after Shinhan 3 in Shinhan Masters which imo, was due to him losing vs Bisu not the change in TvZ gameplay.
Lovely read, but I have to agree with Plexa. Saviors dominance was because he was the first Zerg to truly understand perfect timing, simply put, he was the first to know when to drone whore and when to make units and what combinations.
Personally I also think this is why he was one of the only zergs with low apm and one of the only pro zergs to really use sunkens because he just had a little extra drones which meant he could get away with it. And the sunkens would again make it easier for him to defend and he could handle "fast" players with his relatively "slow" hands.
Jaedong is a player that has extremely fast hands and he has the timing of Savior (possibly better) so he dosent even have to make extra sunkens (see Jaedong vs Bisu @ Bluestorm), which gives him an even bigger advantage.
Every Bonjwa has a sense about them which allows them to excel in a particular area. For Boxer is was Micro, for Nada it was Management, for Oov it was Macro, for Savior is was Timing (and for Bisu it is harass in my opinion). This sense later disappears as it is permeated about the progaming scene and becomes common place amongst other gamers and hence they lose their star quality. Nevertheless, they will remain champions and will always be a threat no matter what age they live in.
The funny thing there is that a) harass messes up timing (which is why Bisu is a hard counter to Savior's style) and b) harass isn't really something that gets better or worse over time. Harass is always harass, and player can play to use it or not use it, perhaps why Bisu will have a longer reign of terror than other dominant players.
And the style that would counter Bisu's hard harass style is a solid defense. Flash's defense is the most perfect defense of any player that I've seen yet Bisu has beat him multiple times.
Just my comment, I could write bunches about it but I don't have time right now.
I think we are jumping to conclusions about Savior here. First of all, he lost a ZvZ Bo5 against one of the best muta microers in the game (yes, Zero has some of the best muta micro in the game, i'm saying that right now). I don't even care about that series at this point, as it is a ZvZ. His play recently against other races has been superb. His recent game against Sangho in the WL was ART. He was everywhere at once, and there was absolutely nothing Sangho could do about it. He lost expo after expo, then couldn't even take out the raiding force. It was really something to watch. I personally did not see Savior in the prime of his career (I started actively following the pro scene after Mind raped Bisu in that MSL final (GOM?)), but he looks really freaking good right about now. His series against Upmagic should show that his timing isn't gone. Those attacks (in the victories) were at the PERFECT time between when Upmagic had no units and inadequate amounts of turrets to hold anything off. I'm a huge Upmagic fan, so I'm giving huge props to Savior in that regard.
And for the record, I do think Savior will win another Starleague.
Losing a bo5 zvz doesn't mean that you suck or you won't win anything in the future.
A zvt or a zvp reveals way more about the real level of the player. Mirrors aren't a really valuable information about player skill.
Look at Reach. He is still imo a great decent pvp player but his pvz is absolutly horrid and his pvt is meh. Does it make him a top protoss ? No no no.
For the same reason there are lot of really great z players who aren't that good at zvz. Jaedong and Lux are the only players i auto-bet in zvz because they are dominant whereas the average z player is ... average at zvz. Even July has an average zvz ( at this level ) whereas he is still a beast in his others mu ( especially zvp ).
On February 27 2009 01:08 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: Savior played pretty good tonight.
But Zero played fucking great. That ZvZ was Jaedong level, or possibly even above. This kid has major, major talent.
agreed. Im not as disappointed as I could have beens, seeing that Savior played actually quite good. Its no shame to lose to a micro monster zvz. What really hurt us savior fans was the games he lost to chumps playing like he wouldnt care anymore... This was not the case today, he played to his full potential (in zvz) and got beaten, nothing to be heartbroken about ;P
That said I think savior still has good chances to win a starleague sometime if he continues to play like he does right now and probably gets a good bracket once or smth.
On February 26 2009 21:37 monstar123 wrote: WTF are u talking about ? Savior is bonjwa. How can he lose his throne ? Boxer - is nott deserves to be bonjwa. He is father of SC.
I think he lost his throne quite some time ago.
ok he lost his throne, but Boxer, Nada , OOv did not lose ?
Boxer lost his throne when Nada came along, Nada lost his throne when oov came along, oov lost his throne when Savior came along. Savior lost his when Bisu and others came along. I don't mean to belittle Savior's or anyone else's achievements, I'm just saying that no one stays at the top forever, and when you're toppled you're no longer a reigning Bonjwa.
i like the OP a lot. yes, how there is something intangible about savior that makes him great, that sort of magic i think we would all like to have in our game.
i think he still has a chance at another starleague. :D
my major theory, ill try to keep this short, is just that when youre on top- all the SCprogaming world studies you. everyone wants to beat your style, your builds. essentially, the whole scene becomes about dismantling this Zerg monstrosity, and it was bound to happen. sAviOr evolved, learned and became a style of play that is now an intrigal part of the game, but still- its time has passed. the only question is if he can evolve himself into this newer game. i enjoy watching what he does, either way, no matter what.
savior will come back if he continues to practice hard. Other than some recent stumbles, hes been surprisingly strong, and his lead of iccup (over players like flash) is a good sign.
If he gives up after this and decides it was his last shot then he wont come back. Its more to do with mental state and practice effort than ability.
In either case, savior will go down in history as one of the most dominant forces in pro-sc
On February 27 2009 01:26 Zozma wrote: "Those who have been at the top know the way back."
That's my favorite Boxer quote.
I came late to the party and missed every single Bonjwa reign. Even if it's not realistic, what can I do but hope to see a comeback?
We still have the opportunity to watch as Bisu gets closer to becoming a bonjwa!
This article brought a tear to my eye. THIS is the reason why i love TeamLiquid.net. Aside from that i have always thought that although Savior was a fantastic player, at his time. That was then this is now. The level of starcraft has changed so much even in a couple years other, more normal leveled, progamers are playing at what would be considered amazing a couple years back. It is unfortunate that this is more apparent in Savior, but if he doesn't get his abilities higher up to exceed the current level of players he will never get another MSL or OSL. Boxer even said that players these days are so much better and that even today he is playing at the highest skill level that ever before. But because everyone around is that much better he looks like he is in a "slump"
PS. after a certain point APM does hurt you. Savior does have a lower APM than most Zergs and i think his perfect timing when he reigned supreme allowed him to compensate for this. But since his timing has never gained the perfection that he had before this handicap is starting to really show in his play.
Savior's ZvZ was always nothing very special even if he has been showing good results lately, and Zero is seriously one of the best mutalisk users nowadays.
I think this is a complete overreaction, and besides, it's a known fact that Savior isn't like how he used to be, but he is improving nowadays and it's too early to say that his improvement has halted because he lost a ZvZ against a very talented mutalisk user.
On February 26 2009 21:13 darktreb wrote:Savior didn't have to happen, but he did.
It will never happen again.
I'm not a huge fan of savior, but the OP would have been really sad if this was true. We already have a better player with better sense than sAviOr and his sn is Flash. There will probably be an even better player than him one day (provided SC stays around long enough). Sad for savior fans to see him go (I even found myself rooting for him) but there will certainly be others.
On February 26 2009 21:13 darktreb wrote:Savior didn't have to happen, but he did.
It will never happen again.
I'm not a huge fan of savior, but the OP would have been really sad if this was true. We already have a better player with better sense than sAviOr and his sn is Flash. There will probably be an even better player than him one day (provided SC stays around long enough). Sad for savior fans to see him go (I even found myself rooting for him) but there will certainly be others.
Flash isn't known for his sense. I mean, he does have great sense, but that's not what he's known for. For a time he was The Cheeser, and for a time, he was I Don't Build ComSat, and very recently he was I Stay On One Fact For 10 Minutes. He was never a sense specialist. What he had were monster timing builds with massive macro that rolled over anyone who had inefficiencies in his build. Flash is also a very quick adapter, which does fall in the category of game sense, but usually he forced his opponents to adapt to him and not the other way around. Game sense is "adapting without perceiving", which I can't say Flash has done a lot of.
In fact, Flash starts losing his games when people figure him out but he doesn't employ his game sense to figure them out in kind. I Don't Build ComSat was thwarted by surprise early Arbiters by the likes of HerO and Best. I Stay On One Fact For 10 Minutes was recently thwarted by Bisu's bulldog tactics and early aggression. It was frustrating to see Flash with one factory against these attacks which he did not perceive because he's so stubborn with his build.
I can't really recall any moment when Flash showed great game sense. EDIT: Okay, that's a lie. But still it's not Flash's bread and butter.
On February 27 2009 00:45 Boblion wrote: Losing a bo5 zvz doesn't mean that you suck or you won't win anything in the future.
A zvt or a zvp reveals way more about the real level of the player. Mirrors aren't a really valuable information about player skill.
Look at Reach. He is still imo a great decent pvp player but his pvz is absolutly horrid and his pvt is meh. Does it make him a top protoss ? No no no.
For the same reason there are lot of really great z players who aren't that good at zvz. Jaedong and Lux are the only players i auto-bet in zvz because they are dominant whereas the average z player is ... average at zvz. Even July has an average zvz ( at this level ) whereas he is still a beast in his others mu ( especially zvp ).
Good read though.
Reach has great PvT what are you talking about? And when Reach was dreadful at PvZ was when Zerg's were thought to have a significant advantage over Protoss and we're running wild ZvP.
Watch Reach's recent PvZ's now that he's got some of his former self back and see how well he plays with a standard strong PvZ opening.
Neither is Savior "leaving"; he's coming out of his slump. He won't be the undisputed bonjwa like he used to be, but he isn't showing that absolute hopelessness he showed during his slump anymore.
On February 26 2009 22:27 Plexa wrote: Explain to me how Best managed to win that game - because I have nooo idea.
both the early rush and the dt cheese didn't do that much damage. much sacrificed an early mining probe to go build a plyon and gateway. best had his expansion up sooner than much
they got their 3rds up roughly the same time. best spotted much's first 4th and made him cancel. then later he took out much's 4th nexus after being built.
then best had an excellent storm drop. then he spotted much's proxy buildings.
best had better unit composition and good storms. best's goon micro kept taking out much's zealots.
On February 27 2009 02:53 Zozma wrote: Well, silver lining for me: at least Zero is much less of a threat to Leta than Savior would have been, I think.
I think Zero is a much more legit threat to Leta than Savior and I'm a big Savior fanboy. Zero is really, really good. He has really good game sense, good macro, and Jaedong's mutalisk control.
Luxury could beat Leta too. He could take someone down with just 11 mutas. However, Leta's probably favored in both matches because zvt is imbalanced.
On February 27 2009 02:53 Zozma wrote: Well, silver lining for me: at least Zero is much less of a threat to Leta than Savior would have been, I think.
I think Zero is a much more legit threat to Leta than Savior and I'm a big Savior fanboy. Zero is really, really good. He has really good game sense, good macro, and Jaedong's mutalisk control.
Luxury could beat Leta too. He could take someone down with just 11 mutas. However, Leta's probably favored in both matches because zvt is imbalanced.
This depends a lot on what Leta is going to start doing in his TvZ matches.
If he still plans on going mech then Savior would have been more dangerous, Savior has shown a special aptitude for killing mech builds lately. Bio is up in the air.
I like ZerO, quite a lot actually but he has 2 MU's that have been largely untested lately. He can't always tech to ultralisks in those MU and so eventually we will have to see his lurker/ling/defiler control.
If it's anywhere near as good as his mutalisk control he will be fine, if it's not however and Leta decides it's time to play bio at a high level ZerO is going to have problems.
On February 27 2009 02:53 Zozma wrote: Well, silver lining for me: at least Zero is much less of a threat to Leta than Savior would have been, I think.
I think Zero is a much more legit threat to Leta than Savior and I'm a big Savior fanboy. Zero is really, really good. He has really good game sense, good macro, and Jaedong's mutalisk control.
Luxury could beat Leta too. He could take someone down with just 11 mutas. However, Leta's probably favored in both matches because zvt is imbalanced.
Ugh.
TvZ IS NOT IMBALANCED. Maybe it makes you feel better to say that after losing fifteen straight games against Terran on iCcup, but it's still not true.
Yeah although it's kind of nice to read this I disagree with the premise. Bisu is a master of starcraft that amazes me even more than Savior. Bisu just has a magical style, one of relentless early game harass into deadly midgame timing attacks.
Bisu play the game in such a way that after the game that I don't think what went right for the enemy, or wrong for his opponent. I'm left thinking how the hell can things like this even happen, where it seems like the opponent did nothing wrong and Bisu didn't do anything special but he just crushed his enemy anyway.
Savior isn't an anomoly, he was merely someone along the path of the development of SC.
If you had infinite time to build a program on a computer with virtually unlimited processing power to play SC, you could build yourself each player in history. Except Savior.
lol this made me roll my eyes. I'm someone who was into Pro SC during the Boxer/Nada eras, then I only came back to it when Flash was just emerging (epic GOMTV against Stork). So I missed the whole Savior reign and don't feel much about him, except a sort of "rooting for the underdog" because any win for him these days seems like a struggle against the odds. I'd like to see more of the magic though that seems to have captivated so many.
If you had infinite time to build a program on a computer with virtually unlimited processing power to play SC, you could build yourself each player in history. Except Savior.
lol this made me roll my eyes. I'm someone who was into Pro SC during the Boxer/Nada eras, then I only came back to it when Flash was just emerging (epic GOMTV against Stork). So I missed the whole Savior reign and don't feel much about him, except a sort of "rooting for the underdog" because any win for him these days seems like a struggle against the odds. I'd like to see more of the magic though that seems to have captivated so many.
you can see it yourself just go watch old VODs in TLPD
When they asked Julyzerg about sAviOr he said: "He hacks"
Most of you here talk a lot bout how players have gotten way better since savior reing but beside a few like Jaedong Flash, etc.. This isnt too true. You all tend to talk about SaviOr losing his confidence but the thing is if you really know where to look MJY was more about focus than confidence, as a matter of fact he has NEVER, NEVER been a person that stands out because of his confidence.
Why? Read his early interviews, we started to know THE MAESTRO, THE HITLER ZERG, we WANTED a villain, starcraft needed a villain so we created one. The dark look, the silent face, etc.. We all assumed MJY was the "bad guy" of starcraft.
We got deceived.
When MJY got into CJ house he wasnt a quiet guy, he was cheerful,he liked to talk, a lot, to everybody. But they put him on Xellos room, not someone thats know to be a chatty guy. Just remember the "Xellos face" MJY even said one time that he tought about quitting because he felt lonely on a proteam.
But we didnt see that boy. We saw a BONJWA that crushed every other player without even smiling.
He didnt smile because he was confident. He didnt smile because he was nervous. Thats why he covers his eyes. Thats why he needs people to tell him how nice he looks on expensive clothes.
I wanted to elaborate more on this point but maybe some othe time. Thanks for reading
On February 27 2009 00:45 Boblion wrote: Losing a bo5 zvz doesn't mean that you suck or you won't win anything in the future.
A zvt or a zvp reveals way more about the real level of the player. Mirrors aren't a really valuable information about player skill.
Look at Reach. He is still imo a great decent pvp player but his pvz is absolutly horrid and his pvt is meh. Does it make him a top protoss ? No no no.
For the same reason there are lot of really great z players who aren't that good at zvz. Jaedong and Lux are the only players i auto-bet in zvz because they are dominant whereas the average z player is ... average at zvz. Even July has an average zvz ( at this level ) whereas he is still a beast in his others mu ( especially zvp ).
Good read though.
Reach has great PvT what are you talking about? And when Reach was dreadful at PvZ was when Zerg's were thought to have a significant advantage over Protoss and we're running wild ZvP.
Watch Reach's recent PvZ's now that he's got some of his former self back and see how well he plays with a standard strong PvZ opening.
Lol. His PvZ is bad ( for a pro obviously ) for ages. I mean it is fun to watch him, i love him but he is fucking horrid and terribad. Honestea used the expression " 2003 vintage " for Reach's pvz and i totally agree with him. When i say that his PvT is meh it means that he isn't the favourite vs a semi decent terran whereas i think he can take a game of almost all the protoss players ( hell watch his game vs Stork or how he pwned the young Lecaf Toss ). PvP is a match up with a lot of gamble and mind games and i think that is why an old and experienced player like Reach can still produce some great games whereas his mechanics are a bit rusty compared to newer pro.
On February 26 2009 21:37 monstar123 wrote: WTF are u talking about ? Savior is bonjwa. How can he lose his throne ? Boxer - is nott deserves to be bonjwa. He is father of SC.
It's true- Savior never excelled at ZvZ- that's probably why his time of dominance was when every other Zerg got killed off by Terrans.
Still I'm sad to see him amongst the "decent" players. I liked Savior most of all the Bonjwas, as his style was no less dominant but consisted of always walking the edge to surmount a lead. Made for such nailbiters back then (Iris game 5 anyone?).
With Boxer the fun was in wondering what freaky build he had cooked up this time- with Nada how many tanks he'd fill the screen with and Oov how many tanks he'd fill the screen with in under 10 minutes .
sdflögksöj, I just wrote this really long reply disagreeing with Plexa's post, but it got lost. Goddamn Word (yes, it was so long I opened word for it).
I'll just try to shortly repeat the main points:
- while Savior revolutionized macro timing, it's only one of the things he excelled at and reducing him to timing is inadequate.
- Savior didn't live on the edge during his bonjwa career. He always tried to avoid big risks in his games and would routinely build more sunkens than most other Zergs. The reason we remember him as such a risky player is because his greatest games are those where his opponent brought him to the brink of defeat and managed to force him to abandon his usual, relatively safe style.
- Savior had qualities that I don't think we've seen matched since. I don't think there's a single player in the history of progaming that could rival his talent for battle tactics (meaning the side of micro that is strategical, not mechanic) and he was definitely one of the smartest guys ever to play this game.
- I think the beauty of Savior's game is best summed up by the fact that if an opponent gave Savior only a little room to breathe, he was doomed. Everything in Savior's game made sense, had a purpose and was concentrated towards the moment where Terran or Protoss would walk out of his base, ready to be crushed. The mixture of macro (ie timing and making good macro decisions), anticipating what his opponent was going to do and engaging him in the best way possible was what made him so singular.
We remember Savior mostly for his dominating macro in games like Superfight game 2 vs Boxer, but if you go back, there are a lot of games he wins purely by making a smart decision. Battle tactics is one of the most underappreciated skills in the BW community imho.
like, mentioning Savior vs Daezang on Peaks as an example of how Savior played so risky is really off imo. Savior didn't know what was happening until the last moment, there was no way he could prepare and if he'd known what was coming, he would definitely have had way more sunkens.
It's one of my favourite Savior games and I think it's another example that the best Savior moments were those where he was thrown off his usual game and put into a tough spot (in which he excelled like no other, the guy used to be incredibly clutch).
agree totally with orome. savior vs daezang was not risky play on saviors side, it was just him defending an unscouted 4 gate all-in by pulling stuff outta his ass and killing the zealots. I remember that game thinking "wow even for savior this will be impossible" when daezang moved out for the attack, but somehow savior held.
Idra didn't have to happen. Kidding, but man i'm still waiting for nada to stomp on kids faces once again, it seems like he's even further then savior.
I admire Savior fans, their undying love for the guy.
I'm the exact same way with IntoTheRainBOw and I thoroughly believe he will rise up out of nowhere and win a few starleagues and become the first true protoss bonjwa.
I just hope Savior fans realize that the anti-fans are just as important as the hardcore fans. It's what makes progaming feel really dramatic and real. Just as you hate FBH when he destroys Savior, I hated Savior when he beat my favourite players.
Unless savior does not take this as a mental blow, i believe that if he has the heart to do it, I think he can win another starleague. He has made a commitment to practice very diligently and the CJ house is full of great practice partners.
If savior looks at this as a turn around and not a sinking ship i believe he can do it.
There are a couple of starleagues around the corner.
On February 27 2009 11:28 Zozma wrote: Savior still has the seed.
It may be too late this time, but I want to see some e-hustle next MSL, Savior! Drop and give us a 20-game win streak!
20-game win streak o.O Sounds more like a double starleague sweep.
Everybody thinks that saviors comeback will come back immediately, but regaining strength is a gradual thing, once a new batch of starleagues come around the corner and savior continue his extensive training, i think he will be ready to win a star league or two.
On February 27 2009 06:26 Monsen wrote: It's true- Savior never excelled at ZvZ- that's probably why his time of dominance was when every other Zerg got killed off by Terrans.
FFS he could compite with fucking CHOJJA and he beat Silver. And while he lost the final to Chojja he won their next games.
On February 27 2009 06:26 Monsen wrote: It's true- Savior never excelled at ZvZ- that's probably why his time of dominance was when every other Zerg got killed off by Terrans.
Still I'm sad to see him amongst the "decent" players. I liked Savior most of all the Bonjwas, as his style was no less dominant but consisted of always walking the edge to surmount a lead. Made for such nailbiters back then (Iris game 5 anyone?).
With Boxer the fun was in wondering what freaky build he had cooked up this time- with Nada how many tanks he'd fill the screen with and Oov how many tanks he'd fill the screen with in under 10 minutes .
with oov, how many screens he'd fill tanks with? :p
I agree with the author on the fact that Savior didn't "have to happen". Yes, he brought about timings to the game, but it's not like the game was at a simplistic (poor word but I can't think of the right one right now) point in time like it was before macro, or before they hybrid evolved. Like Jordan, he just was there. I think the comparison to Jordan was perfect. Savior will never win the most titles or win the most games, but he will always be one of the greatest.
THe OP gets it right with savior's je ne sais quoi. Air Jordan is a valid comparison in terms of what he brought the playing field, viz. an ethereal quality that would influence all subsequent generations whether they were conscious of it or not.
Plexa is doing right to point out that savior's practical weapon is(was) timing. The OP mentions the fundamental elements of SC as micro and macro. But as SC is a dynamic and thus in motion there is also the Z axis of time. Timing and Ma Jae Yoon's understanding thereof influenced the next generation just as much as lim yo hwan micro influenced jaedong. certainly there is no direct evidence of this but if one looks to the current metagame they shall see how Savior's 2006 play brought the recognition and study of timing to the forefront in a similar manner as Lim Yo Hwan did for micro and Chio Yeon Sung for macro in previous years.
Winning a good deal of games in Proleague against strong oponents and reaching MSL Ro8. I would call that a good start of the year for Savior after being that bad. There are ten months left after all, he may even win a starleague.
For destroying everyone well he may has exaggerated a bit ...
The level of mechanics have improve so much since the era of Savior. I didn't feel Savior would be able to beat Zero straightup in zvz, especially in a bo5 unless Savior did something unorthodox which was what happened. Savior is just not improving enough mechanically.
On February 28 2009 06:58 [X]Ken_D wrote: The level of mechanics have improve so much since the era of Savior. I didn't feel Savior would be able to beat Zero straightup in zvz, especially in a bo5 unless Savior did something unorthodox which was what happened. Savior is just not improving enough mechanically.
He played Flash on ICCup and Flash thought it was Jaedong.
I don't think it has anything to do with mechanics... There's something going on upstairs, with his confidence.
On February 28 2009 06:58 [X]Ken_D wrote: The level of mechanics have improve so much since the era of Savior. I didn't feel Savior would be able to beat Zero straightup in zvz, especially in a bo5 unless Savior did something unorthodox which was what happened. Savior is just not improving enough mechanically.
He played Flash on ICCup and Flash thought it was Jaedong.
I don't think it has anything to do with mechanics... There's something going on upstairs, with his confidence.
We never seen that game. For all we know, it could be Savior getting a huge ass lead then falling apart to where Flash makes a comeback when he shouldn't. His confidence? He has been bonjwa and played on live stage for a long time. It has everything to do with his mechanics not being good enough. However, making it into the RO8 is a huge accomplishment for anyone.
I truly feel the OP as I feel the same way to myself.... I have finally returned and came back home after meeting sAviOr that day (check my previous post) and at the moment, I felt really excited and had a sense that he would do well in 2009 and that he won't disappoint us with his words that he stated back in 2008.
It's true, sAviOr "didn't had to happen" but the truth is, he did happen and now that it did happen, he needs to happen again. I suppose this is my view and my fanboyism for sAviOr but he needs to happen... why? because I believe... we believe... and he believes... that in 2009, a certain progamer said a certain statement that he will destroy EVERYONE in 2009..... and that man is Ma Jae Yoon....
I haven't given up yet and I'm sure neither would a whole number of other sAviOr fans and I'm sure MJY himself hasn't given up yet... he may not become what he used to be back in those days but I believe he will move on and continue his destiny and role that is set up for him in 2009, in 2010, and for that it matters, even in 2050.. (gosh, would Starcraft even exist in that day?? o.O)
Like I have stated before, I will state again to sAviOr as he has stated to us back in Blizzcon in 2008, I believe Ma Jae Yoon will destroy everyone in 2009!
The question is whether Savior will come back after his recent losses; he could potentially get depressed again and slump just as hard, if not harder, than before.
Why does everyone on TL have such an abundant flair for the dramatic. Its a game people good players will always be good or at least fun to watch. When was the last time a pro-sports athlete was given one of these funerals while still in the league. Jesus.
On March 01 2009 12:29 keV. wrote: Why does everyone on TL have such an abundant flair for the dramatic. Its a game people good players will always be good or at least fun to watch. When was the last time a pro-sports athlete was given one of these funerals while still in the league. Jesus.
Because you have no soul. If you had a passion you would understand.
On March 01 2009 12:29 keV. wrote: Why does everyone on TL have such an abundant flair for the dramatic. Its a game people good players will always be good or at least fun to watch. When was the last time a pro-sports athlete was given one of these funerals while still in the league. Jesus.
Because you have no soul. If you had a passion you would understand.
Way to completely miss the point. I'm sure signing death warrants on a player who just made it to the ro8 (BEATING GOOD PLAYERS) is a much better way to demonstrate my passion.
On March 01 2009 12:29 keV. wrote: Why does everyone on TL have such an abundant flair for the dramatic. Its a game people good players will always be good or at least fun to watch. When was the last time a pro-sports athlete was given one of these funerals while still in the league. Jesus.
Because you have no soul. If you had a passion you would understand.
Way to completely miss the point. I'm sure signing death warrants on a player who just made it to the ro8 (BEATING GOOD PLAYERS) is a much better way to demonstrate my passion.
I don't think you understand. Did we actually sign a death warrant? Have you actually read the posts the people on this thread have posted? The original poster said that HE believes that Savior will not win another starleague but many others say that he still has the flair, and that if he's willing to keep being diligent he will succed.
On March 01 2009 12:29 keV. wrote: Why does everyone on TL have such an abundant flair for the dramatic. Its a game people good players will always be good or at least fun to watch. When was the last time a pro-sports athlete was given one of these funerals while still in the league. Jesus.
Because you have no soul. If you had a passion you would understand.
Way to completely miss the point. I'm sure signing death warrants on a player who just made it to the ro8 (BEATING GOOD PLAYERS) is a much better way to demonstrate my passion.
I don't think you understand. Did we actually sign a death warrant? Have you actually read the posts the people on this thread have posted? The original poster said that HE believes that Savior will not win another starleague but many others say that he still has the flair, and that if he's willing to keep being diligent he will succed.
And way to take life to seriously....
I was referring to the original poster.
"It will never happen again." = I don't think it will happen again?
The whole point of my post was that people are either saying he's dead or he will ascend to the heavens. I'm just wondering where the in-between people are, when I saw the loss against zero I saw two good players playing and one over coming the other. As he was statistically expected to. I'm not saying savior is dead or going to destroy everyone. Just that he made it far into a tournament and lost to a better ZvZer. That is all I see, this doesn't indicate his "last hurrah" to me. Its sort of ironic that people blame pressure on a savior loss, the same pressure they knowingly create in these sorts of threads.
Some of us feel that these "overly dramatic" tributes are a nice way to honour and discuss one of the best SC players of all time. If you're the type who simply likes looking at his statistics and going "hmm yes he was statistically expected to win, of course hrm *twiddles fingers*" then by all means go ahead.
savior needs to start believing in himself, i think he just thinks that he needs to be on a bonjwa lvl to win, like that bonjwa mindset that he will destroy everyone, but i think he just has to focus more on his timings and superb game sense that he has, i'd say for him to focus less on trying to be a bonjwa status again or you know "coming back" but just live to win. LIVE TO WIN,Day by day KICK IT ALL THE WAY, I'm not caving in. LIVE TO WIN! YEAH! WIN!
On March 01 2009 12:29 keV. wrote: Why does everyone on TL have such an abundant flair for the dramatic. Its a game people good players will always be good or at least fun to watch. When was the last time a pro-sports athlete was given one of these funerals while still in the league. Jesus.
Because you have no soul. If you had a passion you would understand.
Way to completely miss the point. I'm sure signing death warrants on a player who just made it to the ro8 (BEATING GOOD PLAYERS) is a much better way to demonstrate my passion.
I don't think you understand. Did we actually sign a death warrant? Have you actually read the posts the people on this thread have posted? The original poster said that HE believes that Savior will not win another starleague but many others say that he still has the flair, and that if he's willing to keep being diligent he will succed.
And way to take life to seriously....
I was referring to the original poster.
"It will never happen again." = I don't think it will happen again?
The whole point of my post was that people are either saying he's dead or he will ascend to the heavens. I'm just wondering where the in-between people are, when I saw the loss against zero I saw two good players playing and one over coming the other. As he was statistically expected to. I'm not saying savior is dead or going to destroy everyone. Just that he made it far into a tournament and lost to a better ZvZer. That is all I see, this doesn't indicate his "last hurrah" to me. Its sort of ironic that people blame pressure on a savior loss, the same pressure they knowingly create in these sorts of threads.
Just my 2cents.
My point was simply that the Savior that everyone saw in 2006 will never be back. Nor will another player with that kind of relative influence on the entire field.
RO8 is no small feat, but look at the set of players that have made RO8 in the past two years, and then look at the set of players who've made RO4, and then look at the finalists and the winners. The field thins out quickly, for obvious reasons.
EPT
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