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On February 27 2009 01:08 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
Savior played pretty good tonight.
But Zero played fucking great. That ZvZ was Jaedong level, or possibly even above. This kid has major, major talent.
agreed. Im not as disappointed as I could have beens, seeing that Savior played actually quite good. Its no shame to lose to a micro monster zvz. What really hurt us savior fans was the games he lost to chumps playing like he wouldnt care anymore... This was not the case today, he played to his full potential (in zvz) and got beaten, nothing to be heartbroken about ;P
That said I think savior still has good chances to win a starleague sometime if he continues to play like he does right now and probably gets a good bracket once or smth.
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On February 26 2009 22:55 monstar123 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2009 21:39 jello_biafra wrote:On February 26 2009 21:37 monstar123 wrote:
WTF are u talking about ?
Savior is bonjwa. How can he lose his throne ? Boxer - is nott deserves to be bonjwa. He is father of SC. I think he lost his throne quite some time ago. ok he lost his throne, but Boxer, Nada , OOv did not lose ?
Boxer lost his throne when Nada came along, Nada lost his throne when oov came along, oov lost his throne when Savior came along. Savior lost his when Bisu and others came along. I don't mean to belittle Savior's or anyone else's achievements, I'm just saying that no one stays at the top forever, and when you're toppled you're no longer a reigning Bonjwa.
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"Those who have been at the top know the way back."
That's my favorite Boxer quote.
I came late to the party and missed every single Bonjwa reign. Even if it's not realistic, what can I do but hope to see a comeback?
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i like the OP a lot. yes, how there is something intangible about savior that makes him great, that sort of magic i think we would all like to have in our game.
i think he still has a chance at another starleague. :D
my major theory, ill try to keep this short, is just that when youre on top- all the SCprogaming world studies you. everyone wants to beat your style, your builds. essentially, the whole scene becomes about dismantling this Zerg monstrosity, and it was bound to happen. sAviOr evolved, learned and became a style of play that is now an intrigal part of the game, but still- its time has passed. the only question is if he can evolve himself into this newer game. i enjoy watching what he does, either way, no matter what.
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savior will come back if he continues to practice hard. Other than some recent stumbles, hes been surprisingly strong, and his lead of iccup (over players like flash) is a good sign.
If he gives up after this and decides it was his last shot then he wont come back. Its more to do with mental state and practice effort than ability.
In either case, savior will go down in history as one of the most dominant forces in pro-sc
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On February 27 2009 01:26 Zozma wrote:
"Those who have been at the top know the way back."
That's my favorite Boxer quote.
I came late to the party and missed every single Bonjwa reign. Even if it's not realistic, what can I do but hope to see a comeback?
We still have the opportunity to watch as Bisu gets closer to becoming a bonjwa!
This article brought a tear to my eye. THIS is the reason why i love TeamLiquid.net. Aside from that i have always thought that although Savior was a fantastic player, at his time. That was then this is now. The level of starcraft has changed so much even in a couple years other, more normal leveled, progamers are playing at what would be considered amazing a couple years back. It is unfortunate that this is more apparent in Savior, but if he doesn't get his abilities higher up to exceed the current level of players he will never get another MSL or OSL. Boxer even said that players these days are so much better and that even today he is playing at the highest skill level that ever before. But because everyone around is that much better he looks like he is in a "slump"
PS. after a certain point APM does hurt you. Savior does have a lower APM than most Zergs and i think his perfect timing when he reigned supreme allowed him to compensate for this. But since his timing has never gained the perfection that he had before this handicap is starting to really show in his play.
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Savior's ZvZ was always nothing very special even if he has been showing good results lately, and Zero is seriously one of the best mutalisk users nowadays.
I think this is a complete overreaction, and besides, it's a known fact that Savior isn't like how he used to be, but he is improving nowadays and it's too early to say that his improvement has halted because he lost a ZvZ against a very talented mutalisk user.
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On February 26 2009 21:13 darktreb wrote:Savior didn't have to happen, but he did.
It will never happen again.
I'm not a huge fan of savior, but the OP would have been really sad if this was true. We already have a better player with better sense than  sAviOr and his sn is  Flash. There will probably be an even better player than him one day (provided SC stays around long enough). Sad for savior fans to see him go (I even found myself rooting for him) but there will certainly be others.
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On February 27 2009 01:47 passby20 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2009 21:13 darktreb wrote:Savior didn't have to happen, but he did.
It will never happen again. I'm not a huge fan of savior, but the OP would have been really sad if this was true. We already have a better player with better sense than sAviOr and his sn is Flash. There will probably be an even better player than him one day (provided SC stays around long enough). Sad for savior fans to see him go (I even found myself rooting for him) but there will certainly be others.
Flash isn't known for his sense. I mean, he does have great sense, but that's not what he's known for. For a time he was The Cheeser, and for a time, he was I Don't Build ComSat, and very recently he was I Stay On One Fact For 10 Minutes. He was never a sense specialist. What he had were monster timing builds with massive macro that rolled over anyone who had inefficiencies in his build. Flash is also a very quick adapter, which does fall in the category of game sense, but usually he forced his opponents to adapt to him and not the other way around. Game sense is "adapting without perceiving", which I can't say Flash has done a lot of.
In fact, Flash starts losing his games when people figure him out but he doesn't employ his game sense to figure them out in kind. I Don't Build ComSat was thwarted by surprise early Arbiters by the likes of HerO and Best. I Stay On One Fact For 10 Minutes was recently thwarted by Bisu's bulldog tactics and early aggression. It was frustrating to see Flash with one factory against these attacks which he did not perceive because he's so stubborn with his build.
I can't really recall any moment when Flash showed great game sense. EDIT: Okay, that's a lie. But still it's not Flash's bread and butter.
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On February 27 2009 00:45 Boblion wrote:
Losing a bo5 zvz doesn't mean that you suck or you won't win anything in the future.
A zvt or a zvp reveals way more about the real level of the player.
Mirrors aren't a really valuable information about player skill.
Look at Reach. He is still imo a great decent pvp player but his pvz is absolutly horrid and his pvt is meh.
Does it make him a top protoss ?
No no no.
For the same reason there are lot of really great z players who aren't that good at zvz. Jaedong and Lux are the only players i auto-bet in zvz because they are dominant whereas the average z player is ... average at zvz. Even July has an average zvz ( at this level ) whereas he is still a beast in his others mu ( especially zvp ).
Good read though.
Reach has great PvT what are you talking about? And when Reach was dreadful at PvZ was when Zerg's were thought to have a significant advantage over Protoss and we're running wild ZvP.
Watch Reach's recent PvZ's now that he's got some of his former self back and see how well he plays with a standard strong PvZ opening.
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Neither is Savior "leaving"; he's coming out of his slump. He won't be the undisputed bonjwa like he used to be, but he isn't showing that absolute hopelessness he showed during his slump anymore.
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Well, silver lining for me: at least Zero is much less of a threat to Leta than Savior would have been, I think.
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On February 26 2009 22:27 Plexa wrote:
Explain to me how Best managed to win that game - because I have nooo idea.
both the early rush and the dt cheese didn't do that much damage. much sacrificed an early mining probe to go build a plyon and gateway. best had his expansion up sooner than much
they got their 3rds up roughly the same time. best spotted much's first 4th and made him cancel. then later he took out much's 4th nexus after being built.
then best had an excellent storm drop. then he spotted much's proxy buildings.
best had better unit composition and good storms. best's goon micro kept taking out much's zealots.
that's how he managed to win the game.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On February 27 2009 02:53 Zozma wrote:
Well, silver lining for me: at least Zero is much less of a threat to Leta than Savior would have been, I think.
I think Zero is a much more legit threat to Leta than Savior and I'm a big Savior fanboy. Zero is really, really good. He has really good game sense, good macro, and Jaedong's mutalisk control.
Luxury could beat Leta too. He could take someone down with just 11 mutas. However, Leta's probably favored in both matches because zvt is imbalanced.
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On February 27 2009 04:01 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2009 02:53 Zozma wrote:
Well, silver lining for me: at least Zero is much less of a threat to Leta than Savior would have been, I think. I think Zero is a much more legit threat to Leta than Savior and I'm a big Savior fanboy. Zero is really, really good. He has really good game sense, good macro, and Jaedong's mutalisk control. Luxury could beat Leta too. He could take someone down with just 11 mutas. However, Leta's probably favored in both matches because zvt is imbalanced.
This depends a lot on what Leta is going to start doing in his TvZ matches.
If he still plans on going mech then Savior would have been more dangerous, Savior has shown a special aptitude for killing mech builds lately. Bio is up in the air.
I like ZerO, quite a lot actually but he has 2 MU's that have been largely untested lately. He can't always tech to ultralisks in those MU and so eventually we will have to see his lurker/ling/defiler control.
If it's anywhere near as good as his mutalisk control he will be fine, if it's not however and Leta decides it's time to play bio at a high level ZerO is going to have problems.
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On February 27 2009 04:01 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2009 02:53 Zozma wrote:
Well, silver lining for me: at least Zero is much less of a threat to Leta than Savior would have been, I think. I think Zero is a much more legit threat to Leta than Savior and I'm a big Savior fanboy. Zero is really, really good. He has really good game sense, good macro, and Jaedong's mutalisk control. Luxury could beat Leta too. He could take someone down with just 11 mutas. However, Leta's probably favored in both matches because zvt is imbalanced. Ugh.
TvZ IS NOT IMBALANCED. Maybe it makes you feel better to say that after losing fifteen straight games against Terran on iCcup, but it's still not true.
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Yeah although it's kind of nice to read this I disagree with the premise. Bisu is a master of starcraft that amazes me even more than Savior. Bisu just has a magical style, one of relentless early game harass into deadly midgame timing attacks.
Bisu play the game in such a way that after the game that I don't think what went right for the enemy, or wrong for his opponent. I'm left thinking how the hell can things like this even happen, where it seems like the opponent did nothing wrong and Bisu didn't do anything special but he just crushed his enemy anyway.
Savior isn't an anomoly, he was merely someone along the path of the development of SC.
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If you had infinite time to build a program on a computer with virtually unlimited processing power to play SC, you could build yourself each player in history. Except Savior.
lol this made me roll my eyes. I'm someone who was into Pro SC during the Boxer/Nada eras, then I only came back to it when Flash was just emerging (epic GOMTV against Stork). So I missed the whole Savior reign and don't feel much about him, except a sort of "rooting for the underdog" because any win for him these days seems like a struggle against the odds. I'd like to see more of the magic though that seems to have captivated so many.
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Braavos36402 Posts
On February 27 2009 04:49 yoshtodd wrote:Show nested quote +If you had infinite time to build a program on a computer with virtually unlimited processing power to play SC, you could build yourself each player in history. Except Savior. lol this made me roll my eyes. I'm someone who was into Pro SC during the Boxer/Nada eras, then I only came back to it when Flash was just emerging (epic GOMTV against Stork). So I missed the whole Savior reign and don't feel much about him, except a sort of "rooting for the underdog" because any win for him these days seems like a struggle against the odds. I'd like to see more of the magic though that seems to have captivated so many.
you can see it yourself just go watch old VODs in TLPD
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i think MJY ran into a sleeping giant that was zero...
esp. in ZvZ.
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EPT
