EPTJust try and fight off zerglings with dragoons without watching them.
"Transparency, or why StarCraft owns Warcraft 3" - Page 5
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Boonbag
France3318 Posts
Just try and fight off zerglings with dragoons without watching them. | ||
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EmeraldSparks
United States1451 Posts
On April 17 2008 02:28 SoleSteeler wrote: Believe it or not, micro is extremely important in War3, if you AREN'T watching every unit and getting the use out of them, chances are your opponent is and you'll lose. If you don't watch your hero for a split second, he'll get surrounded and killed, or he'll flank half your army, etc. It's not like you can go back to your base for 2 minutes, come back and say "lawl he's microing, I better micro for a few seconds then watch for another 2 minutes". You have to be continually controlling your units. That's mainly what War3 is about. Doesn't it help that you never, ever have to go back to base for more than ten seconds? | ||
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SoleSteeler
Canada5427 Posts
On April 17 2008 03:34 Boonbag wrote: Wrong =[ .. and that's the whole point. Again moving and toying with your colorfull units for minutes and having almost nothign else to do is not what you can call "unit control". Just try and fight off zerglings with dragoons without watching them. If it was "minutes" I would agree. Battles CAN be over in seconds in War3 you know. They aren't always dancing around for "minutes". You obviously don't know anything about War3, based on what you're saying :/ And I have played SC/BW since the first day it was released, and continue to play it today, and have watched hundreds of VODs, I know about SC micro. With your example of Dragoons vs. Zerglings, will EVERY player micro his dragoons so they do a bit more vs. zerglings? Or will some players go back to their base and start producing 12 more dragoons to replace the ones he's about to lose? In War3, it's not like you have 6 huntresses and you can say "oh well, these units won't matter in the long run, I'll just let them die" where you can in SC without suffering as much. On April 17 2008 03:40 EmeraldSparks wrote: Doesn't it help that you never, ever have to go back to base for more than ten seconds? Of course. What's your point? Your view can be anywhere, my point is you're currently not doing much with your units, and apparently that doesn't "matter" in a War3 game. So I ask you two this: what is war3 about then if it's not micro and unit control? Why does one person win and not the other? It's certainly not macro, which is non-existent. | ||
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Boonbag
France3318 Posts
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SoleSteeler
Canada5427 Posts
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JustQuitWarcraftIII
United States679 Posts
On April 17 2008 03:29 SoleSteeler wrote: You can't say War3 Micro> SC micro no, notice I didn't say anything about SC's micro, I was merely defending the attack that War3's micro isn't "important" (however that would work). I think SC's micro is harder to pull off, but it's not as important as War3's micro, because if you don't micro in War3 it's pretty much auto lose. Not the case in SC, right? Yeah, I wasn't pointing fingers at anyone. SC creates more diversity since different players can adopt different styles of game-play. Micro alone cannot justify what a true, wickedly sick RTS game should be even though WC3 is very fun and more relaxing to play with. SC is about a balance of micro and macro. In the Dragoons vs Zerglings case, the player most likely chooses macro due to his abundance of resources or the bigger advantage gained thorough a quicker incoming of reinforcements. However, situations differ as seen in other times like the Casy vs Jaedong game. Casy could have always pumped out more units instead of concentrating on his few Vultures. But had he done so, the chance to pick off these Drones, thus wrecking havoc upon Jaedong's economy, would've been missed. So of course he'd keep these Vultures alive by all means. Even though he could've pumped out 10 more Vultures during that while, the chance of attacking these vulnerable Drones only presented itself once. Of course, getting hold of this chance was obviously far more important than simply making more units at the moment. So players generally weigh various situations to decided whether micro/macro shall give him more advantage and thus come to decide which of the two needs more focus. This is just my view on the issue and it might be flawed as I haven't gotten into SC so much. | ||
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Boonbag
France3318 Posts
On April 17 2008 04:07 SoleSteeler wrote: Explain to me why that is then. Don't just make a point and not back it up with your reasoning. The whole point of starcraft is beeing able to perfectly control your units while at the exact same time produce more. You don't "chose" between controling your units or producing some, you have to do both at the same time and the best you can. If you have to make a choice that either means a) you don't understand the game correctly b) you're not fast / skilled enough and need to practice more. | ||
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JustQuitWarcraftIII
United States679 Posts
Anyways Carmac's thread was a little harsh for openly denouncing WC3. I mean people know what they know but frankness causes hate and flame wars often. I like Tod and his involvement in the comment section really indicates the extent of the article's provocation. | ||
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SoleSteeler
Canada5427 Posts
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JustQuitWarcraftIII
United States679 Posts
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Boonbag
France3318 Posts
On April 17 2008 04:31 SoleSteeler wrote: Still, no player can perfectly control his units + produce them at the same time. Yes, you should be doing some of both, but you can't do both perfectly as if you were 100% focused on one or the other. For one, if you're not taking your eyes off the battle, then you don't have enough hotkeys for all your buildings. If you go back to your base, it's possible that in that 1-2 seconds, your units back there could be fucked. You see it happen all the time. I just rewatched Flash using metal against Jaedong on Katrina, at one point Jaedong flies his mutas out, but they don't get completely out of range, and then Flash's goliaths begin firing and the mutas run back to defend themselves, where Jaedong would have wanted to move them out, instead of damaging them further. My overall point is that if it happens in BW, it sets you back yes, (read the post above yours by JustQuitWarIII) but it wouldn't set you back as much as in War3. In War3 you HAVE to babysit your units the whole game, especially vs. your enemy (as opposed to vs. creeps). Therefore, War3 is pretty much all unit control/micro. I don't see how you can argue otherwise. Nowadays top pro gamers are getting closer and closer to doing so flawlessly. What you fail to understand, or rather, acknowledge, is that there is virtualy no limit to how much your gaming speed can devellop your starcraft game - there seems to be no real limit yet to the ammount of actions you can execute within the game at the same time. There is no such thing as a "break point" or a "wall" where doing more actions wouldn't translate into the game anymore. In warcraft III you reach that "limit" pretty fast. THe point where doing more action is either not necessary, or not possible. There is no such thing in Starcraft. | ||
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NathanSC
United States620 Posts
On April 17 2008 04:31 SoleSteeler wrote: Still, no player can perfectly control his units + produce them at the same time. Yes, you should be doing some of both, but you can't do both perfectly as if you were 100% focused on one or the other. For one, if you're not taking your eyes off the battle, then you don't have enough hotkeys for all your buildings. If you go back to your base, it's possible that in that 1-2 seconds, your units back there could be fucked. You see it happen all the time. I just rewatched Flash using metal against Jaedong on Katrina, at one point Jaedong flies his mutas out, but they don't get completely out of range, and then Flash's goliaths begin firing and the mutas run back to defend themselves, where Jaedong would have wanted to move them out, instead of damaging them further. My overall point is that if it happens in BW, it sets you back yes, (read the post above yours by JustQuitWarIII) but it wouldn't set you back as much as in War3. In War3 you HAVE to babysit your units the whole game, especially vs. your enemy (as opposed to vs. creeps). Therefore, War3 is pretty much all unit control/micro. I don't see how you can argue otherwise. I don't think that's a very good example to use. Jaedong lost that game, and it is very easy to say he lost it due to the poor unit control you mentioned. A better example to use to argue that Warcraft 3 micro is more important is to point to a professional game where one player simply refused to micro and still steamrolled his opponent. Edit: A professional game of SC of course. | ||
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JustQuitWarcraftIII
United States679 Posts
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Mora
Canada5235 Posts
*sigh* | ||
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SoleSteeler
Canada5427 Posts
On April 17 2008 04:35 Boonbag wrote: Nowadays top pro gamers are getting closer and closer to doing so flawlessly. What you fail to understand, or rather, acknowledge, is that there is virtualy no limit to how much your gaming speed can devellop your starcraft game - there seems to be no real limit yet to the ammount of actions you can execute within the game at the same time. There is no such thing as a "break point" or a "wall" where doing more actions wouldn't translate into the game anymore. In warcraft III you reach that "limit" pretty fast. THe point where doing more action is either not necessary, or not possible. There is no such thing in Starcraft. I agree with everything you say here, and I don't think I've given reason to believe that I think otherwise? Where have I said otherwise? And yes they are getting closer and closer, but playing perfectly will always be impossible, perfect within the limitations of the UI is a better way of saying it. | ||
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SoleSteeler
Canada5427 Posts
On April 17 2008 05:05 Mora wrote: a potentially great thread was ruined. *sigh* The thread isn't ruined. But I don't think it had too much potential, from the OP. Everyone agrees with the OP... we all know SC is 100x better as a spectator sport than War3, is much harder to play, etc. | ||
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MeriaDoKk
Chile1726 Posts
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alffla
Hong Kong20321 Posts
:S | ||
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ZergPowerrr
20 Posts
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lololol
5198 Posts
On April 17 2008 05:51 alffla wrote: im getting so confused with the discussion now lol :S Discussion? Where? ....the responses by the WC3 pros just remind me of a dota pro(and ex-wc3 pro) rambling about how fucking hard it is to be a top dota player... | ||
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