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On April 15 2008 18:34 G.s)NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +ToD wrote:
I don't think it dominates Warcraft, certainly not outside of Korea for sure.
I do agree that Starcraft is more spectator friendly since its more basic, and really fast, always bringing action packed games.
"A more skilled" game is discutable, ofcourse the speed required to play the game at high level is much higher than in Warcraft, but Warcraft is much more axed on Strategies and timings which are much more important than in Starcraft.
Ofcourse at highest level things might be harder in Starcraft as it's literally recognized as a sport with high salaries given to the bestest players in Korea, the interest for the game causes a lot more people to take it really seriously practicing tons for TV games etc.
While in Warcraft we have a few tournaments where you must qualify to take part in, and a lot of invitational ones these days, the players are sponsored by teams that are very often not even based in same country as them. There is no coaches, every player is his own coach and practices in his own way.
And Starcraft does have a lot of sponsorship actually, way more than Warcraft, but the thing is that is only happening in Korea. Didn't expect such bullshit from a top player like ToD. He definately has no clue about Starcraft it seems. Starcraft is superior in any point of gameplay. There's no need to discuss. Starcraft is superior in micro, macro AND strategy. The strategy decisions in Warcraft 3 are limited while you can choose hundreds, thousands of strategies in Starcraft. The only point Warcraft 3 is superior is the count of races.
He said that WC3 relies more on strategy than on speed in low-level games. And I agree with him. Most people who play starcraft do not have perfect timings, so if you watch most D/D+/C-/C/C+ games you will surely see people losing in a lot of ways that don't normally end a match. For example, the first 9 mutas should never kill a terran player, unless he had suffered huge losses earlier, but I'm sure that there are some players who lost the game to 9 mutas because their army was somewhere else and so on. Not because of bad strategy, or bad timing, but because of bad play.
He did say that AT HIGH LEVELS, things are harder in StarCraft. And it's true.
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That's just wrong that Starcraft is transparent for spectators.
Just like in WarCraft, in Starcraft most of the things that really make difference are almost always behind the scene and without game knowledge will never be understood. For simple example let's take reaver drop or even better - mutalisks harass. That's often irrelevant whether it makes big damage or not, but inexperienced spectator may and often does assume that if muta didn't killed a lot than zerg is losing. The main difference here between Starcraft and WarCraft is that Starcraft offers "eye-candy" for spectators which doesn't let them have a tedious time and makes them think they understand what's going on. That just makes spectators have fun of simply watching battles.
Eye-candy ingredients are constant action and diversity of this action. When there is no diversity (ZvZ) or constant action (average TvT) it becomes harder and harder to keep spectators.
Another aspect which has nothing to do with Starcraft gameplay itself is that there is entertaining scene behind it with trashtalk and etc. One can find TvT boring but will surely watch it if that's his favorite player is playing against his biggest rival or any other entertaining background behind.
And to counter "my girlfriend loves watching SC" I myself WarCraft noob in every aspect, but find watching it's replays as a very entertaining deed.
And this article is looks rather like a trollbait.
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On April 15 2008 19:45 0xDEADBEEF wrote:
SC micro > WC3 micro, SC macro > WC3 macro.
fixed.
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If you look at youtube Starcraft vods gets so many more views than warcraft 3 ones
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On April 15 2008 22:23 Highways wrote:
If you look at youtube Starcraft vods gets so many more views than warcraft 3 ones
Isn't it because W3 players can watch replays while SC obviously can't?
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On April 15 2008 22:23 Highways wrote:
If you look at youtube Starcraft vods gets so many more views than warcraft 3 ones
That's because YouTube quality totally kills War3 matches. They make it about 10x harder to follow than if you had the replay. That's why 99% of WC3 audio commentaries are found in replay + mp3 format compared to VOD format for SC commentaries. Naturally, replays also get much higher # of hits, often in the thousands..
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I haven't read all the comments but there are commentators if the game is broad casted live. The commentator clarifies the things you don't understand. Let's take Tasteless broad casting in Korea as an example. He actually takes the time to explain little things like building placement, muta stacking, hold lurker, tanks has longer range than vision, walling in etc.
I've played SC and WC3 for a lot of years and I like swords, bows and magic a lot more than sci-fi. Yet I enjoy watching SC a lot more than WC3. In fact I haven't really watched WC3 in a loooong time just because it's so boring to watch.
SC is all the action, non of the bullshit. WC3 just bullshit and nearly no action.
SC is straight up fuck your opponent over. WC3 is creep, creep, oh shit opponents army *tp home* creep, creep some more.
I was watching a replay not long ago of the human player Sky. He didn't even scout his opponent for the entire game. He basically camped his 2 bases fought 2 battles and won. I just /facepalmed and went back to watching SC again.
I think the only player I've enjoyed watching is Moon doing crazy stuff like abusing zeppelin with archers and killing endless amounts of towers with DH and panda.
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They really all over those War3 pros balls.
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United States33699 Posts
I don't think crazy BW fans like us are really qualified to assume what it looks like to someone who's never played the game, it's practically instinct to us, and it's hard to try and think beyond that
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Both games take a lot of knowledge to understand in the first start.
As an RTS Fan and having played both games a lot, I know for sure SC is better cause its faster and almost every game is so fun with so many quirks to it.
War3 is repetitive. But there are so many brilliant moments to the game too. Definitely one of the best, but a rung lower than SC.
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On April 15 2008 18:34 G.s)NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +ToD wrote:
I don't think it dominates Warcraft, certainly not outside of Korea for sure.
I do agree that Starcraft is more spectator friendly since its more basic, and really fast, always bringing action packed games.
"A more skilled" game is discutable, ofcourse the speed required to play the game at high level is much higher than in Warcraft, but Warcraft is much more axed on Strategies and timings which are much more important than in Starcraft.
Ofcourse at highest level things might be harder in Starcraft as it's literally recognized as a sport with high salaries given to the bestest players in Korea, the interest for the game causes a lot more people to take it really seriously practicing tons for TV games etc.
While in Warcraft we have a few tournaments where you must qualify to take part in, and a lot of invitational ones these days, the players are sponsored by teams that are very often not even based in same country as them. There is no coaches, every player is his own coach and practices in his own way.
And Starcraft does have a lot of sponsorship actually, way more than Warcraft, but the thing is that is only happening in Korea. Didn't expect such bullshit from a top player like ToD. He definately has no clue about Starcraft it seems. Starcraft is superior in any point of gameplay. There's no need to discuss. Starcraft is superior in micro, macro AND strategy. The strategy decisions in Warcraft 3 are limited while you can choose hundreds, thousands of strategies in Starcraft. The only point Warcraft 3 is superior is the count of races.
What did you expect a progamer like ToD who plays War3 for a living? Starcraft is definitely superior in macro and strategy (as well as overall), but micro.. just no. Maybe SC micro is more pleasing to watch and seems faster, but it's not harder than War3's.
Hundreds, thousands of strategies in SC...? No, there's actually only about 1-3 dominant strategies in every matchup, unless you count BO variation as different strategy (e.g. 1 Fac CC vs 2 Fac). Anyways, he's not exactly that educated about SC, but it's just the same as many SC pros who have no clue about War3.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Lol I thought ToD was pretty respectful towards SC :C Well, his chess example wasn't but his second post was, mostly.
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On April 15 2008 23:34 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Lol I thought ToD was pretty respectful towards SC :C Well, his chess example wasn't but his second post was, mostly.
Well, ToD has actually always been known to be one of the more whiny/less mannered pros. I never liked him when I was following the War3 scene.
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On April 15 2008 22:53 Xeiji wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2008 22:23 Highways wrote:
If you look at youtube Starcraft vods gets so many more views than warcraft 3 ones Isn't it because W3 players can watch replays while SC obviously can't?
wow what the fuck are you talking about?
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But I don't understand why SC players build their base all over the map. omg !
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a very nice article there, I really don't like ToD's attitude in the comments though.
On April 15 2008 23:55 meRz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2008 22:53 Xeiji wrote:On April 15 2008 22:23 Highways wrote:
If you look at youtube Starcraft vods gets so many more views than warcraft 3 ones Isn't it because W3 players can watch replays while SC obviously can't? wow what the fuck are you talking about?
I think he is talking about the fact that all the "professional" WC3 replays are released and in SC the hands get their hands on them only if they're leaked.
Also replays are a much bigger thing in WC3 than SC as far as I know for the reason above, heck, even their biggest community site has the word "replay" in it.
Oh and I'd like to add my opinion to the "which game has harder micro" debate, I myself have never played neither of the games competitively and to be honest I'm pretty much terrible at both of them, but in both games I've played micro maps a lot, in WC3 I usually learned what and how to do something in a matter of very little time and execute the micro challenge perfectly but In SC I've yet to do anything like that.
Again though, this is just from playing micro maps, so the micro probably is very different in actual play and because of that my opinion should pretty much be ignored.. but I wanted to write and now I look cool for writing a longer than average post. woho!
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On April 15 2008 23:55 meRz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2008 22:53 Xeiji wrote:On April 15 2008 22:23 Highways wrote:
If you look at youtube Starcraft vods gets so many more views than warcraft 3 ones Isn't it because W3 players can watch replays while SC obviously can't? wow what the fuck are you talking about?
maybe the fact that we have proleague, MSL, OSL vods and not replays, while they do provide replays. Don't know about it much, but from what people posted here it seems that games are distributed in other way for each game.
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I would like to add that a friend of mine was reading sk-gaming looking for CS news and found some stuff about BW some weeks ago. He had never played it in his life, then he watched the vods from gomtv invitational, he could understand most of what was going on thanks to transparency + tasteless casting. And he really enjoyed watching it.
Then on the other hand. Some friends of mine link me to Quake videos and I can't understand crap about it. I used to play WC3 myself a long time ago but if I watch it today I get confused myself. While BW is just so clean.
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On April 15 2008 21:39 InRaged wrote:
And this article is looks rather like a trollbait. That's Carmac in a nutshell actually
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Well I'm not going to go into an essay here guys, but I just wanted to state, Starcraft is harder than Warcraft III overall and it's pretty obvious. Just take a look at the differences between the Mineral Field and the Gold Mine. I think that's the best example I could give, but there are many other good examples as to why.
As for the article, great read.
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EPT
