EPThttp://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1597
Turns out Protoss AI is imba! Nerf Nerf!
Bot Fight: Examination of Starcraft AI
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Goosey
United States695 Posts
http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1597 Turns out Protoss AI is imba! Nerf Nerf! | ||
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ATeddyBear
Canada2843 Posts
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9934 Posts
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ShaLLoW[baY]
Canada12499 Posts
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Lemonwalrus
United States5465 Posts
Edit: Although I suppose balance on the human vs human level probably doesn't correlate to balance on the comp vs comp level. | ||
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DrywMz
United States394 Posts
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Hurricane
United States3939 Posts
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hunter3
United States155 Posts
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ydg
United States690 Posts
terran usually always m&m rushes and then m&m and tanks toss can do the zeal rush or a dt rush | ||
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grobo
Japan6199 Posts
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Stegosaur
Netherlands1231 Posts
On April 15 2008 08:15 hunter3 wrote: Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought there were several flavors (aggressiveness, rush tactics, etc) of AI for each race. I read somewhere that the faction name (i.e. "Furinax Tribe" or "Epsilon Squadron") would tell you which one it was. If so, would these AI tests would have to take these into account. I remember the WC2 map editor had AI 'flavors' when putting AI players into a map, so indeed, I bet SC comps have this as well. | ||
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8882
2718 Posts
I remember one of my first battle.net games (it was like my 2nd game ever) - me+my friend vs two protoss comps on LT - we lost because we couldnt wall. I wonder if I would won vs the rush nowadays, if I did not expect it and without mines. Generally I think the AI was nerfed somehow after BW came out - I think in stacracraft the zerg would 5 pool from time to time and now it's like 9, also in the past the computers used to siege the tanks as far as I remember. On April 15 2008 08:27 Stegosaur wrote: I remember the WC2 map editor had AI 'flavors' when putting AI players into a map, so indeed, I bet SC comps have this as well. As far as I know there are like 4 types of computer opponents (easy, medium, hard and insane) and "campaign" computers who use semi scripted attacks (e.g. attack beacons with DTs) and there is one computer AI used for melee games (expansion). (well technically there is also the "area town" AI which means only mining) These AIs use different units and I think the expansion AI is a bit better than the insane AI (insane means difficulty level, not stupidity  ).I think you mistake different "tribes" with the randomness of the AI - e.g. you can do something, save a game and say in two minutes the computer will attack you. Load the game - and he will not attack you. I used it to abuse the campaign when I really sucked. However the "expansion" AI has more of a scripted attack and usually will make one of the standard build orders (consisting of like 3-5 attack waves?) and then starts behaving more randomly. | ||
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besiger
Croatia2452 Posts
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xmShake
United States1100 Posts
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
On April 15 2008 08:27 Stegosaur wrote: I remember the WC2 map editor had AI 'flavors' when putting AI players into a map, so indeed, I bet SC comps have this as well. Yeah, 90% sure this is true. The AI can definitely do different things. For Zerg: -4 pool -12 hatch expo *I think -9 pool, hatch in base, mass sunken For protoss: -3 gate, save up zealots till 12, attack. -cannons, and 14? nexus -DT rush For Terran: -marines and medics -Anything else???? also, the computer will pretty much always time its attacks together if there are more than one and they are allied. Pretty sure they wont delay 4 pool or dt rush, but every other attack is delayed until both are done first cycle attack. I should point out that bw ai work off 3 basic cycles. Basically they follow a preset build order (like 12 zealots) execute it, and then when those units die, it moves to the next cycle. When the 2nd cycle is done it attacks again, when those units die it moves to third cycle, and then stays on third cycle for the rest of the game. The Terran wave is: * 12 Marines, 3 Medics vs. Terrans OR 10 Marines, 4 Firebats, 3 Medics vs. Protoss or Zerg * 5 Tanks, 12 Marines, 3 Medics * 4 Battlecruisers, 6 Wraiths, 2 Valkyries, 3 Tanks, 2 Goliaths, 3 Ghosts, 10 Marines, 2 Medics, and a Partridge in a Pear Tree. Zerg: Zerg AI: The Zerg AI uses only one general strategy regardless of map and enemy race. There is a random chance of using a pool first 6 zergling rush. If used, nothing else changes except that their later attacks take longer to prepare. The attack waves are as follows: *initial lings/build * 20 Hydralisks, 2 Lurkers * 9 Mutalisks, 4 Devourers, 4 Guardians, 8 Scourge * 60 Zerglings The final attack loop is variable. The AI will pick one of the following for each attack: * 12 Mutalisks, 4 Devourers, 4 Guardians * 6 Fully Upgraded Ultralisks, 12 Hydralisks * 20 Hydralisks * 20 Hydralisks, 20 Zergling * 40 Zerglings with the Adrenal Glands upgrade Protoss: Protoss AI: The Protoss AI has 4 basic attack methods: Normal, Dark Templar Attack, Dark Templar Defense, and Double Nexus. The Dark Templar Attack method is used if the scouting unit sees the enemy may not be ready with detectors. Dark Templar Defense is used if a scouting unit sees an enemy Protoss player possibly making Dark Templars. Double Nexus is used if the map seems to provide a close, guardable expansion. Normal is used in all other cases. The attack waves on land maps are as follows: * 12 Zealots if using Normal OR 12 Zealots and 1 Dark Templar if using Dark Templar Attack * 12 Zealots, 6 Dragoons, 2 Dark Templar * 12 Zealots, 8 Scouts, 4 Corsairs * 10 Scouts, 8 Corsairs, 5 Carriers See: http://www.battle.net/scc/faq/aiscripts.shtml | ||
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besiger
Croatia2452 Posts
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
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besiger
Croatia2452 Posts
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GTR
51507 Posts
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Sean.G
Spain889 Posts
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mikeymoo
Canada7170 Posts
I guess that's why after the first attack most computers are pretty much useless. | ||
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Luddite
United States2315 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Assuming that your playing on hunters, with the dumbest possible strategies, in an 8 player free for all, with unlimited resources. | ||
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
On April 15 2008 09:25 mikeymoo wrote: What you've posted is actually really interesting fusionsdf- I didn'trealize computers worked off of waves like that. The first wave always seemed the same, but I didn't realize the way it looped into two and three. I guess that's why after the first attack most computers are pretty much useless. thanks | ||
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Vin{MBL}
5185 Posts
and it's like the comp KNOWS where you are and doesnt scout HAX | ||
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Newbistic
China2912 Posts
On April 15 2008 13:13 Vin{MBL} wrote: I HATE that zerg 4pool it makes me want to cry and it's like the comp KNOWS where you are and doesnt scout HAX I think it's just throw in to discourage people from playing too many compstomps. But yeah, its a bitch if you want to train vs comps. For whatever reason, the worker stack + attack doesn't work as well vs the computer either, I can never trap their lings :/ | ||
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B1nary
Canada1267 Posts
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
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Polyphasic
United States841 Posts
On April 15 2008 09:04 GTR-2-Go wrote: You guys should start playing vs the Ahzz AI, I have troubles with it sometimes with TvP (Spirit Toss anyone?) what is the ahzz AI? | ||
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
On April 15 2008 13:32 Polyphasic wrote: what is the ahzz AI? http://www.broodwarai.com/pages/BWAIWarII.html jeje his experiment has been done years ago and came up with the same inevitable truth -the original toss AI script is simply the best out of the three. gone off to recruit another to our band of brothers, thanks for the find op : ) (brood war thread btw) | ||
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jimminy_kriket
Canada5523 Posts
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MiniRoman
Canada3953 Posts
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
When the 2nd cycle is done it attacks again, when those units die it moves to third cycle, and then stays on third cycle for the rest of the game." So basically horrible multitask macroing while attacking? No wonder they're nub. | ||
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VIB
Brazil3567 Posts
I cannot comprehend how can it be "fun" to watch and analise AI created by others O.o You're just studying the person who wrote it, if you didn't notice... | ||
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BluzMan
Russian Federation4235 Posts
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Carnac
Germany / USA16648 Posts
On April 15 2008 08:32 fusionsdf wrote: Yeah, 90% sure this is true. The AI can definitely do different things. For Zerg: -4 pool -12 hatch expo *I think -9 pool, hatch in base, mass sunken For protoss: -3 gate, save up zealots till 12, attack. -cannons, and 14? nexus -DT rush For Terran: -marines and medics -Anything else???? also, the computer will pretty much always time its attacks together if there are more than one and they are allied. Pretty sure they wont delay 4 pool or dt rush, but every other attack is delayed until both are done first cycle attack. I should point out that bw ai work off 3 basic cycles. Basically they follow a preset build order (like 12 zealots) execute it, and then when those units die, it moves to the next cycle. When the 2nd cycle is done it attacks again, when those units die it moves to third cycle, and then stays on third cycle for the rest of the game. The Terran wave is: * 12 Marines, 3 Medics vs. Terrans OR 10 Marines, 4 Firebats, 3 Medics vs. Protoss or Zerg * 5 Tanks, 12 Marines, 3 Medics * 4 Battlecruisers, 6 Wraiths, 2 Valkyries, 3 Tanks, 2 Goliaths, 3 Ghosts, 10 Marines, 2 Medics, and a Partridge in a Pear Tree. Zerg: Zerg AI: The Zerg AI uses only one general strategy regardless of map and enemy race. There is a random chance of using a pool first 6 zergling rush. If used, nothing else changes except that their later attacks take longer to prepare. The attack waves are as follows: *initial lings/build * 20 Hydralisks, 2 Lurkers * 9 Mutalisks, 4 Devourers, 4 Guardians, 8 Scourge * 60 Zerglings The final attack loop is variable. The AI will pick one of the following for each attack: * 12 Mutalisks, 4 Devourers, 4 Guardians * 6 Fully Upgraded Ultralisks, 12 Hydralisks * 20 Hydralisks * 20 Hydralisks, 20 Zergling * 40 Zerglings with the Adrenal Glands upgrade Protoss: Protoss AI: The Protoss AI has 4 basic attack methods: Normal, Dark Templar Attack, Dark Templar Defense, and Double Nexus. The Dark Templar Attack method is used if the scouting unit sees the enemy may not be ready with detectors. Dark Templar Defense is used if a scouting unit sees an enemy Protoss player possibly making Dark Templars. Double Nexus is used if the map seems to provide a close, guardable expansion. Normal is used in all other cases. The attack waves on land maps are as follows: * 12 Zealots if using Normal OR 12 Zealots and 1 Dark Templar if using Dark Templar Attack * 12 Zealots, 6 Dragoons, 2 Dark Templar * 12 Zealots, 8 Scouts, 4 Corsairs * 10 Scouts, 8 Corsairs, 5 Carriers See: http://www.battle.net/scc/faq/aiscripts.shtml most of this sounds accurate, however the comp doesnt 9 pool. it either uses 4 pool or goes hatch pool (sometimes hatch in main, sometimes at exp) | ||
GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
A familiar battle: Siege Tank vs. Mutalisk. Also popular is the Valkyrie vs. Dragoon fight. The Terran AI always seems to have the wrong unit, at the wrong time, in the wrong place, doing the wrong thing, and not nearly enough of them. That made me laugh xD | ||
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kovarex
Czech Republic65 Posts
Much more interesting would be to make some way (library) to control units with computer program, so it would have (almost) limitless posibilities (same as player) and could also micro, and if the library was standardised, it could also ensure that the code itself doesn't maphack. I would not like to do the hard work with the library to control bw, but if it was done, I would really !!ENJOY!! making bot playing bw, it is very challenging task and even small modules to play for example just micro (so bots could compete in some micro maps) would be interesting enough. It would be funny to see for example bots playing on iccup, getting ranks, so one would be pushed to be able to beat at least computer (like in go). I really got cought by the idea, so if there are any programmers around who would like to do something like that I would like to know, it is also possible that the "library" I'm talking about already exists, I will google a bit. | ||
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Goosey
United States695 Posts
On April 22 2008 23:47 kovarex wrote: + Show Spoiler + I believe that the bot competition uses some simple and very limited scripts, so you can't define micro etc, but anyway evolution programming could be nice (and funny) way how to find very good scrips (My firend was making half life bots using evolution programming) Much more interesting would be to make some way (library) to control units with computer program, so it would have (almost) limitless posibilities (same as player) and could also micro, and if the library was standardised, it could also ensure that the code itself doesn't maphack. I would not like to do the hard work with the library to control bw, but if it was done, I would really !!ENJOY!! making bot playing bw, it is very challenging task and even small modules to play for example just micro (so bots could compete in some micro maps) would be interesting enough. It would be funny to see for example bots playing on iccup, getting ranks, so one would be pushed to be able to beat at least computer (like in go). I really got cought by the idea, so if there are any programmers around who would like to do something like that I would like to know, it is also possible that the "library" I'm talking about already exists, I will google a bit. I was thinking about this the other day, of trying to use a BWL plugin to create an AI which operates based on the information the human has and uses the human's controls (actually generating mouse moves, clicks, keyboard events). I have not looked into how much information the BWL library has access to. To do this you would need to be able to access the data for fog of war, all visible unit positions, resource count, etc etc. If this is possible through their API it sounds like a potentially interesting project to me. I am a programmer in games industry, but have never done a complex AI, so it would be a fun learning experience.. | ||
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omnigol
United States166 Posts
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VIB
Brazil3567 Posts
On April 23 2008 00:25 Goosey wrote: I have plenty of experience with AI and I always loved the idea of creating one for sc/wc since I ever started playing it many years ago. But now I finally got the c++ knowledge to actually make a program that could do it. Mimicking key and mouse strokes would be easy. I just don't know anything about where/how the variables unit position / fog of war are stored. Any idea of how I can get started to find that information? I'm sure many people done this before (finding those variables). I was thinking about this the other day, of trying to use a BWL plugin to create an AI which operates based on the information the human has and uses the human's controls (actually generating mouse moves, clicks, keyboard events). I have not looked into how much information the BWL library has access to. To do this you would need to be able to access the data for fog of war, all visible unit positions, resource count, etc etc. If this is possible through their API it sounds like a potentially interesting project to me. I am a programmer in games industry, but have never done a complex AI, so it would be a fun learning experience.. | ||
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Bajadulce
United States322 Posts
Your interest in improving the computers behaviour is always a welcome sight for the dream that Entropy and Racine started almost a half-decade ago. Considering how dynamic Starcraft is and how limited the internal Ai engine and how it deals with scripts are, Starcraft Ai is actually quite good. The UMS scene and recent Micro grid challenges such as Star's vulture Ai and the Muta Challenge here at TL.net have proven that with some decent micro, a computer can be quite difficult... and fun! Few ppl have experimented with controlling the Ai outside of UMS triggers and the simple ai scripts, but there have been some attempts. What kinds of things are necessary to accomplish this, I do not know, but our small family @ Broodwarai.com might be a good place to snoop around as we have some very gosu programmers lurking there and we would love to have more! *** as for the "bot contest" in first post *** Interesting study, but a bit skewed. I would agree with omnigol in that "why isn't this guy testing 1v1 Ai matchups on normal maps?" We have been running the Ai vs. Ai War that Entropy linked to for nearly 4 years and different races fair better on different maps even as computers. Furthermore the "insane" Ai's that were used in his challenge are junk despite their cheating. In fact our non-cheating scripts blew them away on nearly every map in our BWAIWar II. The Protoss insane being the exception. Still it's fun to see ppl interested in something as old and simple as Starcraft Ai. ... here's looking forward to Starcraft2! | ||
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VIB
Brazil3567 Posts
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misterroboto
Canada27 Posts
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VIB
Brazil3567 Posts
On April 23 2008 06:00 misterroboto wrote: Select AI Race: ProtossActually, I think that being able to modify the starcraft/BW AI would give the community yet another great learning tool. One would be able to practice against one particular strategy without having to rely exclusively on training partners. In modern chess, the computer has been fully integrated in the learning process and is even helping finding new counters to popular strategies. If only the people that made deepblue were starcraft enthusiasts Select AI Skill: A+ Select AI APM: 350 Select AI BO: Bisu FE Fast-Sair that would be fun  | ||
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Deleted User 30223
3104 Posts
when they actually have AI, that is | ||
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Eatme
Switzerland3919 Posts
EDIT:I did this many years ago so my memory is kinda shady. | ||
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kovarex
Czech Republic65 Posts
PS. I already made program that solves L&D go problems quite well (similar to bw micro but in different game), so bw could be another challenge. I would also want to ask if anyone made program that will make this: You insert: what is the fastest way to get 24 speed zerglins? Answer: some BO This should be quite easy to do, all you need to know is the effectivness table for mining and some estimations like - time to go with probe to build pylon etc. | ||
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VIB
Brazil3567 Posts
On April 23 2008 06:54 kovarex wrote: Doubt it, doesn't think it's as easy as you make it sound. It would depend so heavily on the map (changes mining speed, possible expo timing) and some hard-coded game mechanics (building placement, worker movement/collisions) that to estimate anything with a reasonable error margin you would need to actually simulate it many times with an AI and learn from the results. Of course you could make some very rough estimation for all of those but it's so many little errors that after multiplying them all you'll actually have a big error margin and the final result would be very very unreliable.I would also want to ask if anyone made program that will make this: You insert: what is the fastest way to get 24 speed zerglins? Answer: some BO | ||
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PrincessLeila
France170 Posts
On April 23 2008 06:54 kovarex wrote: Bajace: Ok I moved the discussion to the broodwarai forums, the problem is that they concentrate 99% of the time on script programing, but I hope I can get some help there, I'm more and more decided to work on that, and after all I could use it as school work. PS. I already made program that solves L&D go problems quite well (similar to bw micro but in different game), so bw could be another challenge. I would also want to ask if anyone made program that will make this: You insert: what is the fastest way to get 24 speed zerglins? Answer: some BO This should be quite easy to do, all you need to know is the effectivness table for mining and some estimations like - time to go with probe to build pylon etc. Yeah it exists and i've used it some years ago. The version 2.0 was very cool, but it was slow. And there was no 'permanent SCV production' option, so the fastest BO was with minimum SCV. I guess its ok for hardcore cheese. But, really, i can't recall its name | ||
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kovarex
Czech Republic65 Posts
I believe that error don't multiply, the error will be the smaller the more probes will be already mining, and building producing, and I believe it will be really small. I believe it can get to like 95% or so of accuracy which is far good enough, the purpose would be to use it as tool when making new bo's. I will try to make it in the next week/month and I can show the results | ||
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Bajadulce
United States322 Posts
If only the people that made deepblue were starcraft enthusiasts Chess is a static game on a static board and so there are limited permutations of possible scenarios. An rts such as Starcraft would be almost impossible to account for even a fraction of the possible scenarios. But DeepBlueStarcraft would be sweet! I would also want to ask if anyone made program that will make this: We have a program in our database called "evolution forge" basically you plug in what you want to build say 12 hydralisks and it calculates the fastest build order. It's an interesting program, but a bit of a novelty more than anything else. Here is the program if you are interested in checking it out regardless: EvolutionForge v1.62You insert: what is the fastest way to get 24 speed zerglins? Answer: some BO | ||
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IzzyCraft
United States4487 Posts
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t_co
United States702 Posts
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Bajadulce
United States322 Posts
Zbath's original idea was a script that contained nothing but endless zerglings w/ eventual defiler/dark swarm and very little else. It was meant to be a funny little script designed for my 12yr old nephew and some of his friends to play team melee TvZ on a normal map. Here the excitement was in the first 10 minutes as you desperately fought back wave after wave of ever increasing zerglings (upwards of 100) by bunkering down/firebats/medics etc. Eventually you would manage to scrape by and work your way towards comps base. Zbath was meant to be gay. It was always intended as somewhat of a joke, but my nephew sure loved it. The Fa$te$t community also got a hold of it and seemed to enjoy it's wackyness. ... Ya it was/is a pretty wacky Ai. ZBATH_AIWar_v1.0.zip Oddly enough there's actually a newer version. The version you know of was heavily nerfed!. Here is the Ai vs. Ai version w/ a just as obnoxious Protoss. Basically it would wipe out about 7 Blizzard Insane Ai's without much problem. ... ya it's gay as all hell, but that's the point!.. MUST KILL ALL OTHER AI'S! | ||
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Eatme
Switzerland3919 Posts
Anyway the ai ranks 1 : P 2 : T 3 : Z. The Insane ai conclusion is due to that they have strict build orders and apparently the terran has a very lousy one compared to the other ai scripts. The most ideal thing one shuld do when it comes to ai scrips is to make one that does a normal "rush" build really well, like a 9pool speedling-->all lings with cut gas or a 7z-->goons so they could be used as a ok teammate when you are a friend short. Atleast thats the scenario most of the times when I have to use the ai playing bw. EDIT:Damn smileys. | ||
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LonelyMargarita
1845 Posts
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thunk
United States6233 Posts
GTR is right; the Ahizz AI is crazy. They're first wave of units is unbelieveable. And it's crazy how they build factories ALL OVER THE PLACE. I think that the AI would be 10x better if they were told to aim for a few unit combos for each race. Zerg: zerglings -> muta/ling -> lurker/ling -> ultra/ling Protoss zeal -> zeal/goon into adding random support units Terran mmf/tanks or vult/tank/gol. | ||
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knyttym
United States5797 Posts
On April 23 2008 12:39 thunk wrote: Terran mmf/tanks or vult/tank/gol. actually Racine AI Terran goes MnM TvZ and Metal TvP I'm not sure how they do it but it works | ||
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VIB
Brazil3567 Posts
On April 23 2008 07:50 kovarex wrote: Hope it works ^^ make sure you post it here when it's done, I would love to know.I will try to make it in the next week/month and I can show the results | ||
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prOxi.swAMi
Australia3091 Posts
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EvoChamber
France2505 Posts
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SilverSkyLark
Philippines8437 Posts
But sometimes, Terran will tend to go for Battlecruisers like 20 minutes into the game, but it's also stupid enough to send Valkyries into my Goliaths. And yeah, the High Templar of the AI kicks ass, it tears my mnm setup with deadly accuracy, but it never was good against other AIs. I just don't like the way AI handle Terran, the mnm rush it makes gets slaughtered easily unless you give the AI time to get the medic to heal the drugged marines. | ||
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kovarex
Czech Republic65 Posts
On April 23 2008 07:57 Bajadulce wrote: We have a program in our database called "evolution forge" basically you plug in what you want to build say 12 hydralisks and it calculates the fastest build order. It's an interesting program, but a bit of a novelty more than anything else. Here is the program if you are interested in checking it out regardless: EvolutionForge v1.62 How could I not know about such a program, it uses both evolution programming (my subject in school that I really like) to find bo's in bw. I will thest the program soon, is there a way how to get source codes? | ||
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Kingsp4de20
United States716 Posts
On April 24 2008 00:50 kovarex wrote: How could I not know about such a program, it uses both evolution programming (my subject in school that I really like) to find bo's in bw. I will thest the program soon, is there a way how to get source codes? wow I just tested this program, its AWSOME! | ||
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VIB
Brazil3567 Posts
On April 23 2008 07:57 Bajadulce wrote: Wow just tried that, told it to make 12 mutas, been over 30 min and it's still trying to find a build better than his currently 4hatch build which leads to building 2 spires, 2 lairs and sending 9 drones to gas on 1 extractor.EvolutionForge v1.62 Even if he does find a good build after a couple of hours, this is absolutely not viable for our (at least my) needs. I need to estimate it in real time. What if a scouting worker come to harass and forces his drones to defend, changing his mineral/sec rate. Or even worse, gets to actually kill a drone or get a manner pylon somehow. "oh shit wait a bit I need to recalculate this, no rush 2 hour kk?" | ||
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Chau
Canada408 Posts
It was wierd. | ||
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