EPTSnow On New ASL S22 Map, Zerg Nerf
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jinjin5000
United States1557 Posts
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Simplistik
2154 Posts
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Vasoline73
United States8081 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3159 Posts
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iopq
United States1149 Posts
On July 05 2026 15:33 NoS-Craig wrote: Storm/Reavers drops will be deadly on those stacked minerals. zerg can easily drop two lurkers in the Protoss mineral line | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France8173 Posts
On July 05 2026 13:20 Simplistik wrote: I don't play fastest, but is there some kind of mining(?) advantage for Protoss with the stacked minerals? I think having a trillion minerals early and mid game is most beneficial to Protoss. Zerg is generally all about gas. Also storms and reavers will be super hard to defend. Vultures and mutas can’t pop a whole group of stacked workers at once. | ||
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Soulforged
Latvia981 Posts
Be fair when you are already dominating and bored. The whole map commentary, regularly making tougher group from themselves, not taking the goon AI fix...this type of attitude is not limited to Protoss players, but is prevalent among them. Annoyingly, Rain's the only top tier Protoss with eyes on the prize and nothing to prove. | ||
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sas.Sziky
Hungary337 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13465 Posts
On July 05 2026 13:20 Simplistik wrote: I don't play fastest, but is there some kind of mining(?) advantage for Protoss with the stacked minerals? For ZvP, toss are very vulnerable to the Zerg hydra and muta timings in early game and then do well in the mid game if they can survive the early game madness. The stacked minerals/income boost early will get them to their mid game strength faster and nerf Zerg’s ability to gain early advantages/win. In PvT the mass shuttle play and harass will be very strong letting Protoss choose how they kill their terrans (gateway man mass or carriers). | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey729 Posts
On July 05 2026 15:33 NoS-Craig wrote: Storm/Reavers drops will be deadly on those stacked minerals. Don't think I understand - doesn't reavers kill a random number of workers instead of all of those stacked? I've never seen a reaver clear a mining line in one scarab. | ||
Peeano
Netherlands5724 Posts
On July 06 2026 15:42 mtcn77 wrote: Don't think I understand - doesn't reavers kill a random number of workers instead of all of those stacked? I've never seen a reaver clear a mining line in one scarab. Really now? You have never played fmp (more than once)? Just like how storm, archon, sair (all splash damage) deal damage to all 11 stacked mutas. The same applies to splashing ground units. If a scarab hits stacked workers, they're all gone. Even if there are a 100 of them. | ||
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Bonyth
Poland611 Posts
applies to units with splash like reavers (scarabs), tanks, archons, corsairs and others | ||
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TelecoM
United States10834 Posts
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mtcn77
Turkey729 Posts
On July 06 2026 16:49 Peeano wrote: Really now? You have never played fmp (more than once)? Just like how storm, archon, sair (all splash damage) deal damage to all 11 stacked mutas. The same applies to splashing ground units. If a scarab hits stacked workers, they're all gone. Even if there are a 100 of them. I think the shoe is on the other foot. How many times have you seen scarabs kills 100% of the probes in its vicinity? Me, none. | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands5724 Posts
On July 06 2026 23:00 mtcn77 wrote: I think the shoe is on the other foot. How many times have you seen scarabs kills 100% of the probes in its vicinity? Me, none. More than enough, hence my assumption you must have never played fmp, the damage zones picture Bonyth posted doesn't really matter if the workers are stacked (and not running away). Anyway, giving your response and posting history I believe that the people who've wondered if you've ever played BW at all are right. As an example I can watch SC2 or WC3 all I want, but if I never play nor study the game a bit I will never really understand what's going on like I can in BW. Maybe you can finally play the game some time: I advise you to play all the campaigns (both original and BW) to familiarize yourself with all the units, then follow up by going on battle.net. and try to get D rank with all races. If you don't post on TL until you do, that'd be great. | ||
FlaShFTW
United States10545 Posts
On July 06 2026 15:42 mtcn77 wrote: Don't think I understand - doesn't reavers kill a random number of workers instead of all of those stacked? I've never seen a reaver clear a mining line in one scarab. Just admit you don't play the game brother. | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey729 Posts
On July 07 2026 00:49 Peeano wrote: More than enough, hence my assumption you must have never played fmp, the damage zones picture Bonyth posted doesn't really matter if the workers are stacked (and not running away). LOL look who is backtracking with that giant disclaimer claiming to know any better. Don't back down your words and please, don't make a fool of yourself putting people down who have nothing to do with you.tl.net | ||
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WGT-Baal
France3520 Posts
On July 06 2026 23:00 mtcn77 wrote: I think the shoe is on the other foot. How many times have you seen scarabs kills 100% of the probes in its vicinity? Me, none. The scarab targeting can cause it to fail if workers run away while stacked, or semistacked from multiple mineral fields. Usually called a "dud". Basically the trailing workers body block the scarab preventing it from detonating on the leading worker. There are mitigation so it happens often that a scarab will kill all workers/vultures/zerg units in the splash area as with any other splash dealer. But it also happens it might dud. Moving from stacked patches while triggering the dud is much harder than with regular patches, as anyone who s ever played fastest maps could tell you. Because the leading and trailing workers are so close to each other, the scarab wouldn't dud anyway and your entire stack dies. That s why snow s opinion regarding balance is quite strong here. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10545 Posts
On July 07 2026 01:39 WGT-Baal wrote: The scarab targeting can cause it to fail if workers run away while stacked. Usually called a "dud". There ate mitigation so it happens often that a scarab will kill all workers/vultures/zerg units in the splash area as with any other splash dealer. But it also happens it might dud. Moving from stacked patches while triggering the dud is much harder than with regular patches, as anyone who s ever played fastest maps could tell you. That s why snow s opinion regarding balance is quite strong here. I don't think that's what MTCN is saying here. If the scarab duds, no damage is done at all to anything because... well, it duds. If the scarab deals damage, the damage trigger happens and if the workers are stacked on the patches in the same tile as is on fastest, then if one were to take damage, they all take that damage because of the scarab splash. I have never seen it where a scarab goes off on a fastest mineral patch and see surviving workers UNLESS they react in time and the workers start moving/glitching over the patch. So either mtcn is saying that he's seen a scarab hit a fastest patch and not every worker dies, in which case he either is self-reporting that he doesn't actually play the game, or he left out critical information that the workers were starting to move/unstack; or he's saying that scarab hits the workers but duds out... which would be a very silly thing to assume and write based on his language of "100% of the probes". | ||
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Optimate
251 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands5724 Posts
On July 07 2026 01:25 mtcn77 wrote: LOL look who is backtracking with that giant disclaimer claiming to know any better. Don't back down your words and please, don't make a fool of yourself putting people down who have nothing to do with you.tl.net I'm not backtracking at all, I'm teaching you even more. Go play some BW already. | ||
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Miragee
8699 Posts
On July 07 2026 01:25 mtcn77 wrote: LOL look who is backtracking with that giant disclaimer claiming to know any better. Don't back down your words and please, don't make a fool of yourself putting people down who have nothing to do with you.tl.net How is he backtracking? Both of his posts said "stacked workers". Wtf? | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey729 Posts
On July 07 2026 05:24 Miragee wrote: How is he backtracking? Both of his posts said "stacked workers". Wtf? He said as if they are not moving back to return cargo. There are countless examples where scarabs dud. Let's not continue this nonsense further. PS: if they introduced a fmp map, they have really broken the scene. Goodbye, not watching any custom tournament. | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands5724 Posts
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Miragee
8699 Posts
On July 07 2026 05:37 mtcn77 wrote: He said as if they are not moving back to return cargo. There are countless examples where scarabs dud. Let's not continue this nonsense further. PS: if they introduced a fmp map, they have really broken the scene. Goodbye, not watching any custom tournament. At least you are self-aware. | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey729 Posts
On July 07 2026 05:46 Peeano wrote: As if? They return cargo by spinning 90° on the same spot. Dude please stfu already. If you anticipate reavers and your mineral line is 2 tiles across, I think you could wall it to be extra safe. PS: scarabs dud on any contact with any other unit than the one you targeted. I think accounting for this fact you wouldn't leave your mineral line undefended, but who am I talking to. Go on. | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands5724 Posts
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mtcn77
Turkey729 Posts
On July 07 2026 06:10 Peeano wrote: If anyone wondered why I advised to ignore mtcn77. There you go. I bet you don't defend the mineral line and scarab behaviour switches to 100% hit. Make it make sense. User was banned for this post. | ||
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A.Alm
Sweden558 Posts
Mb add more build-able terrain on map, 2nd gas in main base or something else to nerf protoss a bit if it shows to be needed. I rly want the fastest map minerals to work out :D | ||
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium4113 Posts
I think the issue with stacked minerals is that Nexus first + zealots / cannons defense becomes almost a must-do on this map, which is very strong against both Z and T. | ||
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stambe
Bulgaria498 Posts
On July 06 2026 18:59 Bonyth wrote: ibb.co applies to units with splash like reavers (scarabs), tanks, archons, corsairs and others There is no 12,5% splash radius. There is only 100%, 50% and 25% splash radii. Since day one in SC/BW. | ||
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quaristice
136 Posts
i still really want to see this map in asl, hope it makes it definitely. also i see that tl.net has banned this community's funniest source of comedy | ||
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Vasoline73
United States8081 Posts
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HOLYBATS
Turkey812 Posts
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines668 Posts
Anyway, great translations as always jinjin. It really does show that snow is a pretty chill and open minded player when it comes to new maps. | ||
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Bonyth
Poland611 Posts
On July 07 2026 23:32 stambe wrote: There is no 12,5% splash radius. There is only 100%, 50% and 25% splash radii. Since day one in SC/BW. Are you certain? I remember calculating that it takes more minerals to build scarabs than vulture's cost to kill a properly microed speed vulture. Edit: u were right, there is no 12,5% value. Vulture is so fast that it can receive 0 splash damage from scarab... | ||
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Simplistik
2154 Posts
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TMNT
3281 Posts
Not to mention that standard 4p maps are inherently Terran favored, but that has been the status quo in Korean scene that everyone including even Protoss players take it for granted and consider it the norm. | ||
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Soulforged
Latvia981 Posts
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stambe
Bulgaria498 Posts
On July 08 2026 16:34 Bonyth wrote: Are you certain? I remember calculating that it takes more minerals to build scarabs than vulture's cost to kill a properly microed speed vulture. Edit: u were right, there is no 12,5% value. Vulture is so fast that it can receive 0 splash damage from scarab... The Vulture can take 0 damage from a non-dud Scarab, because its soo fast and at a right angle the scarab will detonate when the Vulture is already in its 50% or 25% splash radius, but due to its speed it will outrun the explosion front swing animation and will end up outside of it, thus taking no damage at all. Still, i dont know where the 12,5% damage radius confusion came from? If that was the case, the Vulture would still take a slight amount of damage (12 damage if that would have been the case) from Reavers, but definitely not 0 damage. | ||
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stambe
Bulgaria498 Posts
On July 09 2026 11:44 Simplistik wrote: Somehow, somebody missed the entire point of discussing this map. Haha, oh well, bye. He got the Ghost treatment from the mods. I say we Nuke the entire site from orbit. Its the only way to be sure! | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10545 Posts
On July 09 2026 16:07 Soulforged wrote: Does it even favor P with the amount of minerals that will be present in main, which would be much lower than fastest? I'm not actually sure how it'd play out with immediately reaching saturation and Zerg-like worker counts. Well, fast nexus openers will saturate natural faster etc, the build time requirements overall will make rushes weaker, so it probably does still favor P, but we can't just treat it as fastest. I don't think it's as much about the number of minerals in the main, but rather the speed in gathering. | ||
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Soulforged
Latvia981 Posts
Has to favor P in first minute if only because they do not occupy/spend workers to make buildings(opportunity cost goes way up), but interesting implications after saturation is reached really fast, but natural not up yet. | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands5724 Posts
Would delaying Supply Depot by 1 scv make you hit a better timing later? Why? Get 8 workers for all 8 block asap. Make 9th /10th / 11th / 12th all start buildlng shit. I would really like to see some graph that shows the income rate vs workers. You hit your ideal saturation already at 8. Or does a 9th still not make you suffer from dimished returns? When do you hit full saturation? At 10-11 workers? | ||
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Soulforged
Latvia981 Posts
For example, in matchups like PvP, where natural is normally taken slowly(relative to other P MU's), there's quite a bit of play around when to make a nexus. With full saturation of main, there are viable options of taking that nexus at mid 20's on a prolonged probe cut, pausing at 30 precisely for a small cut, and also non-stop production, oversaturating main while the natural is making, and there's tradeoffs for all those options. Do you oversaturate to have workers to transfer? Do you cut probes to make nexus earlier to be able to make more probes earlier, and have extra mineral line faster for better efficiency? Do you cut probes to follow up with units despite expanding, either defensively or offensively? That type of stuff can get pretty deep in PvP simply because viable nexus timings are close on the timeline to the saturation point(e.g. 5-6min). Meanwhile, something like PvZ or PvT, while having plenty variance, once initial openers are known to both players, has much less choice. Quick main saturation may introduce that type of early game factor into more matchups, and it just acts _weird_. Usually oversaturation is diminishing returns before near-flat 0, here it'll be static until near-flat 0(probably, didn't test). Then there's the fact that normally an extra mineral line increases efficiency even when undersaturated, but here you are nearly guaranteed to hit saturation before natural is done, and natural has worse efficiency than main... I'd rather have a more conservative experimentation in this direction, such as more 10 or 11 mineral patch main maps, but I can't deny this is interesting. | ||
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z7-TranCe
Canada3168 Posts
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