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Hi,
I'm an organizer of the tournament SCVN based in Vietnam. We are planning the 2nd season of the online tournament (the final will be offline) and want to step up the game a bit. So I've come to the ask for advice from TL community on this.
Background
The tournament will consist of 2 leagues called Series A and Series B (similar to Proleague and K-league, or Round of 16 and Round of 24). Series B have between 10-20 players. Series A will have 8 players, with 4 top players from previous season and the other 4 being winners of Series B.
Stream/VODs
We plan to cast the games live on Youtube and Tiktok, as well as upload VODs afterwards. We will have 2 languages for the audience to choose from, Vietnamese and English.
Schedule
We plan to host 4 seasons per year, each season run during 3-4 weeks. Series B play first, then Series A.
Format
For Series A, previously we played kind of Double Elimination format. For this season, I want to transition to ASL-like format to be in sync with ASL format and attract foreign/Korean viewers. I highlight the match outlines below:
![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/FH9xQnv/Untitled.png)
Old format:
![[image loading]](https://bautroituoitho.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/1-1-1024x576.png)
I'd like to ask your advice here
1. Which format do you think is better?
Maybe you'll quickly say ASL format, but is there any advantages of the old format? I see one thing is that the ASL format requires the group matches to have all players present together for a long period of time. This is not feasible if the players are adults with work/families.
I personally thought the old format was a bit too confusing to follow. What do you think?
2. Is this old format (or any double-elimination format) used in other Starcraft or RTS tournaments? If there is more usage of it outside of ASL, maybe we will consider keeping it.
Maps
We plan to use only ASL S17 maps + Polypoid.
Question: Any other maps we should include / exclude?
One thing I can think of is that ASL S17 maps may be too new and stronger players may have easy time defeating amateurs, whereas conventional maps like Polypoid / FS will present a more balanced match, satisfying the audience.
Others
What will it take for you to watch this tournament, if it interests you at all?
Same question, but with donations.
Elsewhere, if you have some experience organizing tournaments, or just have some general advice for us, please let us know. We'll appreciate it! Thanks!
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Two more questions I'd like to ask admins / moderators:
1. Is is possible to add Liquipedia article covering our tournaments? We need to ask Admins to write for us? Or can TL.NET give us access to edit certain articles only?
2. Same question but for players. We'd like to create Liquipedia articles and SOSPA pages for the players so that they show up nicely when we use TL.NET tags.
For example:  ThuocLao
(No SOSPA entry for him)
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Can't really help you for the maps as it would be really up to you for a final decision, but if you re concerned the ASL17 maps maybe too new, use a mix of asl 17 and last ladder season? Perhaps allowing 1 veto per player?
Group stage, unfortunately it will always take a bit more time regardless of the way you set it (ASL style or regular round robin), if you have a full round robin you may be able to spread it over a few days (day:1 A vs B, C vs D, day 2: A vs C, B vs D, day 3: A vs D, B vs C). But for people with work and families, it may actually be easier to lock in one slot to do the whole group for a day (esp if you go bo1) than 3 smaller duration for 3 days. An option is to perhaps poll your players and prepare some backup dates just in case. Please note ASL format has the added advantage of avoiding tie breaks.
Otherwise the rest of your structure looks good and clear except the LB semifinal, wouldnt a round robin by then be a bit cumbersome and add too many possible scheduling constraints and possilby lots of games if you get into a tie break situation? Wouldnt it be easier to just have the 2 winner of lb round 2 play each other, winner plays loser of WB bracket?
What you call the old format, aside from that weird LB semifinal is quite common across esport yes, full round robin into WB and LB brackets are standards for LAN even in BW, and for a host of other game. Usually the limitation is how long a game takes.
3-4 seasons a year for 4 weeks each is fine, but take into account qualifiers (if any) and also the workload on the organiser (you).
As for watching personally I have little time, but as long as the VODs are easy to find you ll get more views.
i am sorry if I didnt reply in the details you wanted but hopefully this helps at least a little.
GL with everything! New tournaments are always a great thing to see 
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On February 08 2024 23:01 WGT-Baal wrote:
Otherwise the rest of your structure looks good and clear except the LB semifinal, wouldnt a round robin by then be a bit cumbersome and add too many possible scheduling constraints and possilby lots of games if you get into a tie break situation? Wouldnt it be easier to just have the 2 winner of lb round 2 play each other, winner plays loser of WB bracket?
Thanks for all of your inputs! One question about BO:
1. If we choose ASL format and no round robin. Is BO3 for all games in Group stages the right choice? Or it's too many, in which case we should do BO1 for first 2 matches, then BO3 for the remaining matches?
2. Any other comments about BO in the photos I've shared (for both ASL-style and old-style format)
Thanks!
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On February 09 2024 00:13 scvn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2024 23:01 WGT-Baal wrote:
Otherwise the rest of your structure looks good and clear except the LB semifinal, wouldnt a round robin by then be a bit cumbersome and add too many possible scheduling constraints and possilby lots of games if you get into a tie break situation? Wouldnt it be easier to just have the 2 winner of lb round 2 play each other, winner plays loser of WB bracket?
Thanks for all of your inputs! One question about BO: 1. If we choose ASL format and no round robin. Is BO3 for all games in Group stages the right choice? Or it's too many, in which case we should do BO1 for first 2 matches, then BO3 for the remaining matches? 2. Any other comments about BO in the photos I've shared (for both ASL-style and old-style format) Thanks!
1) I personally enjoy both for 2 different reasons: Bo1 first matches into bo3 gives you upsets and tailored creative builds for g1 because it is known a bit inadvance who the opponent is and what the map will be (the equivalent of the sniper back in proleague times), but it may also knock out a fan favourite by poor luck, it also somewhat punishes players who do not have time to prepare specifically.
bo3: gives you more stability, the best players (usually) advance, but it removes a bit of the excitement. That is my personal opinion, as a tournament organiser myself i d say you need to make the choice based on your preference and possibly your player s preferences, i dont think it would have too big an impact on time (bo1 to bo3 for 2 matches) in the grand scheme of the tournament, but if it s all on the same day it might? For those I d really encourage talking to the players to see if it would be an issue. Possible solutions would be splitting it into 2 days for instance.
2) i think it looks good otherwise in the photos you ve shared, bo5 semis and bo7 are cool, might be long (7 games tvt) sometimes but it s not shocking. Tip; for bo5 and bo7, you want to have a large enough map pool to avoid duplicate but also consider the amount of vetos if any and use that to select map pool. For example let s say you want 1 veto from the WB only, then you need 8 maps total. 2 vetoes = 9 maps, etc... Another way is to have no veto, 7 maps total.
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Netherlands5182 Posts
Since this is only your 2nd iteration (with another 3 planned in the same year) I'd say make it more fun for the players first and foremost.
The Liquipedia discord is a good place to ask Liquipedia related questions.
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I think, you should do bo3 at least. Bo1 just for ladder, it's fun but not professional.
My opinion, 10 days with 6 bo3, 4 bo5 and 3 bo7 (13 matches) is a good season. Stage 1: Dual tournament format, stage 2: knockout.
8 players: A1, A2, A3, A4 - Group A, B1, B2, B3, B4 - Group B
D1: A1 vs A4, B1 vs B4 (Bo3)
D2: A2 vs A3, B2 vs B3 (Bo3)
D3: Group A, Winner match (Bo5)
D4: Group B, Winner match (Bo5)
D5: 2 Loser matches (Bo3)
D6: Group A, Final match (Bo5)
D7: Group B, Final match (Bo5)
D8: Winner D3 vs Winner D7 (Bo7)
D9: Winner D4 vs Winner D6 (Bo7)
D10: Final (Bo7)
Note: if you do 2 Bo5 in a day, you can do loser match as bo5, so you just need 8 days for a season.
Maps:
You pick map A for game 3 (Bo3), map B for game 5 (Bo5), map C for game 7 (Bo7). SCVN is not ASL, you don't need to copy 100% maps from them.
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DO NOT Do a Bo7 finals. Bo7 is broken in favor of boring defensive players. I personally will watch the finals if the tournament finals is Bo5, but I will not watch if it's Bo7. I'll just watch until one player wins 3 games and then stop watching.
I'd even sponsor the tournament a few hundred dollars if the finals was also Bo3 lol
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On February 09 2024 08:57 bovienchien wrote:
I think, you should do bo3 at least. Bo1 just for ladder, it's fun but not professional.
My opinion, 10 days with 6 bo3, 4 bo5 and 3 bo7 (13 matches) is a good season. Stage 1: Dual tournament format, stage 2: knockout.
8 players: A1, A2, A3, A4 - Group A, B1, B2, B3, B4 - Group B
D1: A1 vs A4, B1 vs B4 (Bo3)
D2: A2 vs A3, B2 vs B3 (Bo3)
D3: Group A, Winner match (Bo5)
D4: Group B, Winner match (Bo5)
D5: 2 Loser matches (Bo3)
D6: Group A, Final match (Bo5)
D7: Group B, Final match (Bo5)
D8: Winner D3 vs Winner D7 (Bo7)
D9: Winner D4 vs Winner D6 (Bo7)
D10: Final (Bo7)
Note: if you do 2 Bo5 in a day, you can do loser match as bo5, so you just need 8 days for a season.
Maps:
You pick map A for game 3 (Bo3), map B for game 5 (Bo5), map C for game 7 (Bo7). SCVN is not ASL, you don't need to copy 100% maps from them.
That's so many games though...
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On February 08 2024 22:34 scvn wrote:Two more questions I'd like to ask admins / moderators: 1. Is is possible to add Liquipedia article covering our tournaments? We need to ask Admins to write for us? Or can TL.NET give us access to edit certain articles only? 2. Same question but for players. We'd like to create Liquipedia articles and SOSPA pages for the players so that they show up nicely when we use TL.NET tags. For example: ThuocLao(No SOSPA entry for him)
You can create pages and edit them on Liquipedia already. Pages and edits done by regular users (such as yourself) do have to be approved by an Editor. Here is just about everything you need to get started:
Help:Contents
Here is an example of a tournament I organized and its page:
NYC LAN 2019 1
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It is difficult having players commit to scheduling. Be prepared for no shows or unavailability.
Also do not expect to gain Korean viewership. I don’t think Koreans even watch BSL.
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Format: Personally I’ m against double elimination bracket, as it creates a lot of waiting time for the players, viewers, casters and organizers. Single elimination is more direct, and less waiting time. Groups I would not do unless there is more than 16 players for each tour, unless it’s a more complicated format.
That being said, I advise you to choose the format the organizers love the most, and the players and viewers from the last event liked the most. The bracket, the maps, and the format create the outlines of how your tournament will roll out. It creates the structure.
Maps: If where you I would outsource the selection of a 2 of maps to a map maker. Another 2 outsource them to what the players liked the most, and another 2 what the viewers of the last tournament liked the most, and another 2 what the organizers like the most. Ask for feedback directly to these people. Also TL polls are another good way of understanding what maps are good and trending at the moment and what is not. Do not just blindly copy paste asl maps.
Listen to everybody and but make your own decisions.
Streaming: you have to get on twitch. Consider streaming multi platform (like twitch and YouTube). If you manage to find a Spanish caster as well, there is a big audience on Facebook streaming from the South American community, that’s where they stream and play broodwar.
Another thing you should consider is if you want to live cast at all. You might consider giving players a deadline every week so they can play in a way that better fits their schedule. Casting from a 2 day old replay is still valid in my opinion, considering people watching online do not know the players or the tournament yet. You might have a lot of lag if you are casting live games.
Also, creating a TL thread where all the information about your tournament (once you make decisions), stating format, players, streams and other info is a must if you want people to start showing interest, and also so they can plan ahead to watch your tournament.
Maybe also create a logo for your tournament, Star-Craft-Viet-Nam
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EPT
