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I think the main issue for me is that we haven't seen any resolution to the allegations that were brought up. I have my own thoughts of course on the validity of the claims, but why is it that we have people here that couldn't even give a shit one way or the other? A lot of the things brought up at the time were pretty serious. Regardless of outcome, they need to be addressed don't they?
There have been allegations against him from MULTIPLE people across MULTIPLE esport scenes. People apart of our small brood war community have been allegedly victimized, and what happened? He just vanished, never addressed anything, and has since not made any statements to defend himself, or apologize for his actions.
Maybe I'm crazy, but I don't feel like its remotely appropriate having him take part in the flagship foreigner tournament without at least some sort of resolution one way or another. The de facto endorsement of whatever transpired between rapid and his accusers here feels pretty gross, and I'm really interested to get Zzzero's perspective on this. I hold Zzzero in the highest regard, and I hope that he can see why this is so concerning to some of us.
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On December 10 2023 06:06 MineraIs wrote:
Fuck rapid
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My opinion on the topic is: west community are mostly weirdos. Half of them do crazy stuff in private life and another half (or maybe all of them) loves to play judge without any qualifications. There are special institutions that should resolve such cases and u should base ur judge on their work, not on some at least shady arguments. On that matter, if I was in same place as Rapid I would probably gone dark regardless I was guilty or not. That's how fucked up modern world and west people are - you can spend saving of ur life on lawyers and maybe even clear ur name officialy, but it still won't fix public opinion much. To be clear, I'm not stating whether Rapid has or hasn't done something illegal. I just say its not starcraft community business, at least not until you are provided with some court sentence.
PS: art_of_turtle, you seriously amongst them? Didn't you describe a very similar problem some time ago with false accusations / blackmailing?
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On December 10 2023 07:14 radley wrote:
My opinion on the topic is: west community are mostly weirdos. Half of them do crazy stuff in private life and another half (or maybe all of them) loves to play judge without any qualifications. There are special institutions that should resolve such cases and u should base ur judge on their work, not on some at least shady arguments. On that matter, if I was in same place as Rapid I would probably gone dark regardless I was guilty or not. That's how fucked up modern world and west people are - you can spend saving of ur life on lawyers and maybe even clear ur name officialy, but it still won't fix public opinion much. To be clear, I'm not stating whether Rapid has or hasn't done something illegal. I just say its not starcraft community business, at least not until you are provided with some court sentence.
PS: art_of_turtle, you seriously amongst them? Didn't you describe a very similar problem some time ago with false accusations / blackmailing?
BSL made that statement themselves 3 yrs ago only to come back on it with 0 reason given. I think that's really the main issue.
You can't just ignore that history. I agree with you there are a lot of weirdos in gaming and the court of public opinion is not the way to go, but this is not the root of the problem here, surely you understand how it is different
If rapid came back apologised/or provided some defe se and restarted to build trust and then was put in bsl then fine. But that s not the case. If bsl has new elements clearing his name then release them and i ll retract my statement
Also like it or not you are part of "the west"
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On December 10 2023 07:14 radley wrote: To be clear, I'm not stating whether Rapid has or hasn't done something illegal. I just say its not starcraft community business, at least not until you are provided with some court sentence.
While I don't agree with you for the most part, I can see where you're coming from. While I don't think its great to just excise someone on the basis of some random allegation, there is a pattern of allegations here that certainly show a need for concern at the very least no? I also don't think you need to do something actually illegal to be so in the wrong that your actions warrant consequences. I feel that given the body of albeit anecdotal evidence, some things that were at the very least wildly inappropriate happened. I don't think the starcraft community should need a court to make some sort of legal ruling to justify social consequences for bad acting.
With regards to the trial of public opinion and lack of concrete evidence, I understand wanting to err on the side of innocence until proven guilty. It certainly it could be the case that every single one of the unrelated women who have talked about his bad acting openly could be making it all up for clout or some other kind of benefit to them personally. I think the idea that this is what is happening here is pretty dubious, since rapid doesn't seem to be extravagantly wealthy or famous, but it is possible I suppose. Regardless, I feel at a minimum SOME sort of acknowledgement of and response to of the allegations is needed before we see Rapid make a comeback with the foreigner scene.
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On December 10 2023 07:47 docholiday_tv wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2023 07:14 radley wrote: To be clear, I'm not stating whether Rapid has or hasn't done something illegal. I just say its not starcraft community business, at least not until you are provided with some court sentence.
While I don't agree with you for the most part, I can see where you're coming from. While I don't think its great to just excise someone on the basis of some random allegation, there is a pattern of allegations here that certainly show a need for concern at the very least no? I also don't think you need to do something actually illegal to be so in the wrong that your actions warrant consequences. I feel that given the body of albeit anecdotal evidence, some things that were at the very least wildly inappropriate happened. I don't think the starcraft community should need a court to make some sort of legal ruling to justify social consequences for bad acting. With regards to the trial of public opinion and lack of concrete evidence, I understand wanting to err on the side of innocence until proven guilty. It certainly it could be the case that every single one of the unrelated women who have talked about his bad acting openly could be making it all up for clout or some other kind of benefit to them personally. I think the idea that this is what is happening here is pretty dubious, since rapid doesn't seem to be extravagantly wealthy or famous, but it is possible I suppose. Regardless, I feel at a minimum SOME sort of acknowledgement of and response to of the allegations is needed before we see Rapid make a comeback with the foreigner scene.
Zzzero passed judgement 3 years ago. So i understand what radley s trying to say just like you. But that ship sailed
with that old bsl statement. This is the main issue here. Either something new came to light for bsl to lift their ban, in which case they should say it, or worse nothing happened and bsl just ignored it and hoped noone would notice, so which is it?
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+ Show Spoiler +On December 10 2023 07:14 radley wrote:
My opinion on the topic is: west community are mostly weirdos. Half of them do crazy stuff in private life and another half (or maybe all of them) loves to play judge without any qualifications. There are special institutions that should resolve such cases and u should base ur judge on their work, not on some at least shady arguments. On that matter, if I was in same place as Rapid I would probably gone dark regardless I was guilty or not. That's how fucked up modern world and west people are - you can spend saving of ur life on lawyers and maybe even clear ur name officialy, but it still won't fix public opinion much. To be clear, I'm not stating whether Rapid has or hasn't done something illegal. I just say its not starcraft community business, at least not until you are provided with some court sentence.
PS: art_of_turtle, you seriously amongst them? Didn't you describe a very similar problem some time ago with false accusations / blackmailing?
Playing Zerg or Protoss is NOT weird. Just because there are people everywhere (not just the west, cuz that would be hilarious if it's your opinion...) may do weird, unacceptable, illegal or whatever stuff doesn't mean we should try to race for the bottom.
You DO know people get wrongly convicted and there are plenty of criminals out.
Just because you can, does not mean that you should.
Just because he hasn't done anything horrible (as far as we know of), doesn't mean that bringing him back is the hill to die on either.
The notion that "you can never clear your name" is ridiculous because yourself and others are defending him RIGHT NOW even as he has not bothered to say 1 word to the public for 3 years...
I think the BSL name should have more integrity than what apparently is... For whatever incomprehensible reason.
BW does not collapse without Flash playing in ASL... I don't think Rapid not casting would be the biggest loss. Things were going good for the past few years without him.
Also post w/e you are saying about art_of_turtle with a link... I'm curious. I know one thing. He didn't go hide under a rock for 3 years and then come back to cast the biggest foreign tournament outside of China without addressing whatever it is... ^_._^
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United States43348 Posts
On December 09 2023 23:55 Ikirouta wrote:
Obviously what he did was wrong but is there no mercy in this community? Its been a bit, give the guy a chance. If a small community condemns everyone who has done something in their life, that community will cease to exist very soon. Its obvious he regrets the fuckup he did, but so do we all, we've all done things that are wrong, everyone of us is a human. Show him some mercy. On the other hand I think he should publicly apologize but in the end, I don't care that much. Just be happy that we have a tournament and casters!
It’s not about mercy, it’s about standards. Nobody is crucifying him, they’re just saying we shouldn’t invite him in to our things.
Mercy isn’t involved because punishment isn’t involved. Not hanging out with someone isn’t a punishment.
Let’s put it another way. Why should he cast it? Not for his game knowledge or for his active participation in our community, both of which are non existent.
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On December 10 2023 07:27 WGT-Baal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2023 07:14 radley wrote:
My opinion on the topic is: west community are mostly weirdos. Half of them do crazy stuff in private life and another half (or maybe all of them) loves to play judge without any qualifications. There are special institutions that should resolve such cases and u should base ur judge on their work, not on some at least shady arguments. On that matter, if I was in same place as Rapid I would probably gone dark regardless I was guilty or not. That's how fucked up modern world and west people are - you can spend saving of ur life on lawyers and maybe even clear ur name officialy, but it still won't fix public opinion much. To be clear, I'm not stating whether Rapid has or hasn't done something illegal. I just say its not starcraft community business, at least not until you are provided with some court sentence.
PS: art_of_turtle, you seriously amongst them? Didn't you describe a very similar problem some time ago with false accusations / blackmailing? BSL made that statement themselves 3 yrs ago only to come back on it with 0 reason given. I think that's really the main issue. You can't just ignore that history. I agree with you there are a lot of weirdos in gaming and the court of public opinion is not the way to go, but this is not the root of the problem here, surely you understand how it is different If rapid came back apologised/or provided some defe se and restarted to build trust and then was put in bsl then fine. But that s not the case. If bsl has new elements clearing his name then release them and i ll retract my statement Also like it or not you are part of "the west"
I don't know what ur talking about Baal regarding to me being part of west, but people's mentality border in central Europe is right between Germany and Poland. More close to true would be saying that France is becoming East, given the amount of Arabian representatives and constatly growing indulgence to their lifestyle. All this equality in everything that possible mantra comes from west (although whats funny, it kinda resembles communists, just maybe in some different aspects of life) and spreads like a cool looking cancer on rest of world. The goal is good, but nobody talks loudly how much of abuse of this new benefits comes from sides that are supposedly badly treated because of their gender, nationality, sexual orientation, believings and gluten intolerancy. Not gonna lie, it's becoming more and more visible even in Poland. Related to the topic, recently in Poland there were discussions about changing regulations regarding sexual abuse. May be a bit exagerrated, but in some cases it could change the way of prosecutions of sexual abuse from standard way of prooving guilt to having to provide proof of being ungilty. For me it's madness to even think about change like that. Imagine that you can be prosecuted for rape supposedly done a year ago by someone who have beef with you and you have to proove it wasn't you, not the opposite. Not 100% sure, but if I record correctly it was even stricly talking about men harrasing women (like there are no examples of women abusing children or even adult men in the past as well).
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On December 10 2023 08:25 radley wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2023 07:27 WGT-Baal wrote:On December 10 2023 07:14 radley wrote:
My opinion on the topic is: west community are mostly weirdos. Half of them do crazy stuff in private life and another half (or maybe all of them) loves to play judge without any qualifications. There are special institutions that should resolve such cases and u should base ur judge on their work, not on some at least shady arguments. On that matter, if I was in same place as Rapid I would probably gone dark regardless I was guilty or not. That's how fucked up modern world and west people are - you can spend saving of ur life on lawyers and maybe even clear ur name officialy, but it still won't fix public opinion much. To be clear, I'm not stating whether Rapid has or hasn't done something illegal. I just say its not starcraft community business, at least not until you are provided with some court sentence.
PS: art_of_turtle, you seriously amongst them? Didn't you describe a very similar problem some time ago with false accusations / blackmailing? BSL made that statement themselves 3 yrs ago only to come back on it with 0 reason given. I think that's really the main issue. You can't just ignore that history. I agree with you there are a lot of weirdos in gaming and the court of public opinion is not the way to go, but this is not the root of the problem here, surely you understand how it is different If rapid came back apologised/or provided some defe se and restarted to build trust and then was put in bsl then fine. But that s not the case. If bsl has new elements clearing his name then release them and i ll retract my statement Also like it or not you are part of "the west" I don't know what ur talking about Baal regarding to me being part of west, but people's mentality border in central Europe is right between Germany and Poland. More close to true would be saying that France is becoming East, given the amount of Arabian representatives and constatly growing indulgence to their lifestyle. All this equality in everything that possible mantra comes from west (although whats funny, it kinda resembles communists, just maybe in some different aspects of life) and spreads like a cool looking cancer on rest of world. The goal is good, but nobody talks loudly how much of abuse of this new benefits comes from sides that are supposedly badly treated because of their gender, nationality, sexual orientation, believings and gluten intolerancy. Not gonna lie, it's becoming more and more visible even in Poland. Related to the topic, recently in Poland there were discussions about changing regulations regarding sexual abuse. May be a bit exagerrated, but in some cases it could change the way of prosecutions of sexual abuse from standard way of prooving guilt to having to provide proof of being ungilty. For me it's madness to even think about change like that. Imagine that you can be prosecuted for rape supposedly done a year ago by someone who have beef with you and you have to proove it wasn't you, not the opposite. Not 100% sure, but if I record correctly it was even stricly talking about men harrasing women (like there are no examples of women abusing children or even adult men in the past as well).
Poland is eu and nato and thus the west, it s not rocket science. Whether it s good or bad is not for here.
I m not talking about actual laws, i don't know nor care what Poland does, as I m not polish. This is about bsl going back on their own word. Tournaments have rules and bans, there are proper processes in and out of a ban. This wasnt followed up and that s the problem. Maybe to you it s not that obvious but as a tournament admin myself this is unacceptable.
To put it in a way you understand and related to gaming, so we can free ourselves from out of context topics: imagine someone is a maphacker and gets banned from BWCL. Then the next big bwcl tournament I invite the person to play without any announcement or explanation. How would that look?
Now in that example if for whatever reason it came to light the maphacking case wasn't airtight and we made a mistake, we would post about it and reintegrate the player.
Or we would have a general amnesty that would also include that player. Either way it would be publically announced, especially if we had made a big announcement out of the ban. Examples include the selector case.
This is about integrity of the tournament and the rules.
Actual legal action and public opinion is irrelevant once the first ban is issued. Can we at least agree on that?
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+ Show Spoiler +On December 10 2023 08:25 radley wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2023 07:27 WGT-Baal wrote:On December 10 2023 07:14 radley wrote:
My opinion on the topic is: west community are mostly weirdos. Half of them do crazy stuff in private life and another half (or maybe all of them) loves to play judge without any qualifications. There are special institutions that should resolve such cases and u should base ur judge on their work, not on some at least shady arguments. On that matter, if I was in same place as Rapid I would probably gone dark regardless I was guilty or not. That's how fucked up modern world and west people are - you can spend saving of ur life on lawyers and maybe even clear ur name officialy, but it still won't fix public opinion much. To be clear, I'm not stating whether Rapid has or hasn't done something illegal. I just say its not starcraft community business, at least not until you are provided with some court sentence.
PS: art_of_turtle, you seriously amongst them? Didn't you describe a very similar problem some time ago with false accusations / blackmailing? BSL made that statement themselves 3 yrs ago only to come back on it with 0 reason given. I think that's really the main issue. You can't just ignore that history. I agree with you there are a lot of weirdos in gaming and the court of public opinion is not the way to go, but this is not the root of the problem here, surely you understand how it is different If rapid came back apologised/or provided some defe se and restarted to build trust and then was put in bsl then fine. But that s not the case. If bsl has new elements clearing his name then release them and i ll retract my statement Also like it or not you are part of "the west" I don't know what ur talking about Baal regarding to me being part of west, but people's mentality border in central Europe is right between Germany and Poland. More close to true would be saying that France is becoming East, given the amount of Arabian representatives and constatly growing indulgence to their lifestyle. All this equality in everything that possible mantra comes from west (although whats funny, it kinda resembles communists, just maybe in some different aspects of life) and spreads like a cool looking cancer on rest of world. The goal is good, but nobody talks loudly how much of abuse of this new benefits comes from sides that are supposedly badly treated because of their gender, nationality, sexual orientation, believings and gluten intolerancy. Not gonna lie, it's becoming more and more visible even in Poland. Related to the topic, recently in Poland there were discussions about changing regulations regarding sexual abuse. May be a bit exagerrated, but in some cases it could change the way of prosecutions of sexual abuse from standard way of prooving guilt to having to provide proof of being ungilty. For me it's madness to even think about change like that. Imagine that you can be prosecuted for rape supposedly done a year ago by someone who have beef with you and you have to proove it wasn't you, not the opposite. Not 100% sure, but if I record correctly it was even stricly talking about men harrasing women (like there are no examples of women abusing children or even adult men in the past as well).
I would love to hear other's from your country explain this. Of course you can go too far in ANY direction.
Bottom line is... Do you have underaged family members? You have a niece, a daughter, a cousin? You let Rapid babysit or not?
Also historical communists are known for how much they care about rape eh... Red Terror and the likes... A rabbit hole not for this thread maybe...
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On December 10 2023 07:14 radley wrote:
My opinion on the topic is: west community are mostly weirdos. Half of them do crazy stuff in private life and another half (or maybe all of them) loves to play judge without any qualifications. There are special institutions that should resolve such cases and u should base ur judge on their work, not on some at least shady arguments. On that matter, if I was in same place as Rapid I would probably gone dark regardless I was guilty or not. That's how fucked up modern world and west people are - you can spend saving of ur life on lawyers and maybe even clear ur name officialy, but it still won't fix public opinion much. To be clear, I'm not stating whether Rapid has or hasn't done something illegal. I just say its not starcraft community business, at least not until you are provided with some court sentence.
PS: art_of_turtle, you seriously amongst them? Didn't you describe a very similar problem some time ago with false accusations / blackmailing?
I understand the “innocent until proven absolutely guilty” mentality but it’s pretty clear by the numerous accusations from multiple people and the fact that he went completely dark after that he’s guilty of at least something perverse and nefarious.
Also, I don’t know how you can come to an ignorant and extreme conclusion that all people in the western community are “weirdos” for one man’s behaviour and action. That kind of statement is clearly prejudice and uncalled for.
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The main issue here as I see it is that, as far as I can tell, Rapid has not addressed this at any point. I feel the majority of the people on this thread would not be jumping on Rapid if he had tried to talk about the situation. Instead, he went dark for 3 years and now he is back again. It is fine to come back, it was ok to take some time to figure his life out, it is ok to refuse to acknowledge something while you are still emotionally affected by this, but his presence now seems that he is either over it or he hopes that we have forgotten.
Well... we have not forgotten, our memory span is longer than 3 years and saying something as blunt as "I am sorry guys, in the past I have done wrong and I have learnt my lesson, I will try to be better in future" would have been fine. Equally, if he believes he is innocent saying that the accusations were wrong and asking for them to be proven before he can accept guild would also have been fine. The matter of the fact is that he has done none of this and we are expected to "take the higher road" and simply shrug it off and forget about it? That is not happening. I agree with AoT that I will not be promoting or supporting BSL anymore until we hear an official statement from the organizers.
Yes, we are a small community, so there is no reason to allow one single person to divide it even further... Let us ask this person to play by the rules and address his issues or make it apparent to him that he is not welcome in this small community, so that we may preserve it ^^
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You know what, I won't continue the discussion because it clearly has no sense. Sorry for trouble and have fun.
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I wouldn't expect anything less from Poland
User was warned for this post
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When I was watching the stream, I was very shocked to hear Rapid casting. I think it was a mistake to include him for multiple reasons:
1) As other people mentioned, the sexual harrassment allegations were never resolved. He never issued an apology or provided any explanation for his behaviour. I know Brood War is a bit of a men's club of a game, but allowing people with numerous sexual harrassment allegations to participate makes the community less safe for women.
2) It's not "cancelling" Rapid to not allow him to participate as a caster. There is no reason I can think of for BSL to damage its own reputation and credibility just to give Rapid a spot as a caster.
3) Setting aside points 1 & 2, which are already damning, his casting and game knowledge is just not up to par.
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On December 10 2023 09:05 radley wrote:
You know what, I won't continue the discussion because it clearly has no sense. Sorry for trouble and have fun.
You are right. This is fun. It's fun trying to escape from the craziness of reality and it always catching up to me...
Arguing about what should be common sense darkening the 25th year anniversary of BW instead of enjoying Julia's accomplishment.
This IS exactly how I want to spend my time... Hope you smell the sarcasm in my text.. ^_._^
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I distinctly remember feeling like Wolf was the only caster I disliked more that Rapid - at least in the beginning. Over time he became better at casting, but just when he was starting to pick up enough steam to become someone respected in the scene this huge drama broke out.
+ Show Spoiler +So you've never heard the tragedy of Darth Rapid the horny.
I'm not surprised. It's not a story the simps of starcraft would tell you. It's a Team Liquid legend.
Darth Rapid was a caster of starcraft so sex-oriented and so hung that he could influence a conversation to create opportunities to send dick pics. He had a such knowledge of his genitals, that he could even send pictures of if to many people at the same time.
The dark side of the internet is a gateway to many opportunities some would consider to be unnatural.
He became so prolific, the only thing he was afraid of... was losing his right to send people pictures of his dick. Which eventually of course he did.
Unfortunately, he taught the people he wanted to bang everything about his dick, and they cancelled him in his sleep.
Ironic. He could be honest about his dick, but not himself.
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Imagine being BSL, needing another $5k for the next season and asking for donations, and then doing this. Brain dead.
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EPT
