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On November 16 2022 12:00 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2022 03:47 WGT-Baal wrote:On November 16 2022 02:13 Jealous wrote:Getting Involved:OP says CPL 8 ended ages ago. Mutaller says CPL "9" is his favorite tournament (guessing it was 8). However, the CPL 8 Liquipedia page is still woefully outdated. Seeding page is using outdated tables and has huge red warning labels about the time for running scripts expiring:  Coach Pupil League/8/Seeding/Week 1Regular season results are not updated after Week 3: Coach Pupil League/8/Regular Season/Week 1VODs only up to Week 2 are added to the VODs list: Coach Pupil League/8/VODsPlayoffs page is empty, I don't see who the winner of this tournament that "ended an eternity ago" is: index.php?title=Coach Pupil League/8/Playoffs&action=edit&redlink=1If someone were to click the CPL main page, they would be under the impression that CPL 8 never even happened: Coach Pupil LeagueSo, all of you fans who want to do pointless activism on the forums to apply pressure to the people who actually do the work, here is a way for you to actually get involved. Start collecting information. Reach out to players and organizers for resources. EDIT: I just checked the CPL Discord, and an organizer uploaded not only all the replays but also all the results into a spreadsheet in #announcements it seems? Very easy to start going through and updating info. Start coding new results tables, copying templates, etc. If you love CPL and want it back so desperately, why are you doing no work to make it happen? If CPL 8 was your favorite tournament, why are you allowing the Liquipedia associated with it to be in disrepair? Anyone can edit Liquipedia if they have a TeamLiquid account. I expect OP, and every person who is here trying to apply pressure on the organizers, to demonstrate their passion by actually "getting involved" and fixing this situation. I think this was more tongue in cheek but everything you do highlight needs to be done for sure. Btw, would you join next CPL whenever that is? you do have a wealth of knowledge with builds etc Even if it is tongue-in-cheek, as a former admin, I get vicariously annoyed when people who aren't doing any work are demanding services from the people who do the work. You wouldn't go into a restaurant and order food and then yell loudly "WHERE IS MY FOOD WHEN WILL IT COME." CPL administration are unpaid volunteers so let them work at their own pace, I am sure they are not holding out on the community on purpose or because they just feel like torturing people with uncertainty. I find posts like this to be rude and selfish. And, as you agreed, there remains a ton of purely manual data-entry type work that literally anyone can do. My knowledge is outdated, I am 100% washed because I only play once in a blue moon, and I don't have the time to invest in CPL, but thank you. PS: Opinions are my own, I don't represent CPL in any way.
there goes my dream of having a team of old school admins, I m devastated!
But yeah actually having some sort of wish list from the CPL folks would be good, so we (the community) could help. Also pooling some admins between competitions if we can agree on an alternate schedule to reduce overlap would be very good, BWCL staff does an amazing job and I am proud to have them in my admin team but more people would help spread the workload for everyone and also bring in more admins to the scene in general.
A sort of CPL for admins in a way to get new blood in ^^ start chill and then get some sort of experience and divide the tasks.
In fact I would even go further and hope we ll have some sort of admin council so we can reach consensus decisions on common issues : common rules, common ban list, schedule discussion to avoid major problems (eg: CPL playof same time as BWCL playoff while BSL and SB 2v2 tours are on going, all usually culminating around 19:00 CET Sunday need not be a common situation, we can and should work around it)
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On November 17 2022 00:43 WGT-Baal wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2022 12:00 Jealous wrote:On November 16 2022 03:47 WGT-Baal wrote:On November 16 2022 02:13 Jealous wrote:Getting Involved:OP says CPL 8 ended ages ago. Mutaller says CPL "9" is his favorite tournament (guessing it was 8). However, the CPL 8 Liquipedia page is still woefully outdated. Seeding page is using outdated tables and has huge red warning labels about the time for running scripts expiring: Coach Pupil League/8/Seeding/Week 1Regular season results are not updated after Week 3: Coach Pupil League/8/Regular Season/Week 1VODs only up to Week 2 are added to the VODs list: Coach Pupil League/8/VODsPlayoffs page is empty, I don't see who the winner of this tournament that "ended an eternity ago" is: index.php?title=Coach Pupil League/8/Playoffs&action=edit&redlink=1If someone were to click the CPL main page, they would be under the impression that CPL 8 never even happened: Coach Pupil LeagueSo, all of you fans who want to do pointless activism on the forums to apply pressure to the people who actually do the work, here is a way for you to actually get involved. Start collecting information. Reach out to players and organizers for resources. EDIT: I just checked the CPL Discord, and an organizer uploaded not only all the replays but also all the results into a spreadsheet in #announcements it seems? Very easy to start going through and updating info. Start coding new results tables, copying templates, etc. If you love CPL and want it back so desperately, why are you doing no work to make it happen? If CPL 8 was your favorite tournament, why are you allowing the Liquipedia associated with it to be in disrepair? Anyone can edit Liquipedia if they have a TeamLiquid account. I expect OP, and every person who is here trying to apply pressure on the organizers, to demonstrate their passion by actually "getting involved" and fixing this situation. I think this was more tongue in cheek but everything you do highlight needs to be done for sure. Btw, would you join next CPL whenever that is? you do have a wealth of knowledge with builds etc Even if it is tongue-in-cheek, as a former admin, I get vicariously annoyed when people who aren't doing any work are demanding services from the people who do the work. You wouldn't go into a restaurant and order food and then yell loudly "WHERE IS MY FOOD WHEN WILL IT COME." CPL administration are unpaid volunteers so let them work at their own pace, I am sure they are not holding out on the community on purpose or because they just feel like torturing people with uncertainty. I find posts like this to be rude and selfish. And, as you agreed, there remains a ton of purely manual data-entry type work that literally anyone can do. My knowledge is outdated, I am 100% washed because I only play once in a blue moon, and I don't have the time to invest in CPL, but thank you. PS: Opinions are my own, I don't represent CPL in any way. there goes my dream of having a team of old school admins, I m devastated! But yeah actually having some sort of wish list from the CPL folks would be good, so we (the community) could help. Also pooling some admins between competitions if we can agree on an alternate schedule to reduce overlap would be very good, BWCL staff does an amazing job and I am proud to have them in my admin team but more people would help spread the workload for everyone and also bring in more admins to the scene in general. A sort of CPL for admins in a way to get new blood in ^^ start chill and then get some sort of experience and divide the tasks. In fact I would even go further and hope we ll have some sort of admin council so we can reach consensus decisions on common issues : common rules, common ban list, schedule discussion to avoid major problems (eg: CPL playof same time as BWCL playoff while BSL and SB 2v2 tours are on going, all usually culminating around 19:00 CET Sunday need not be a common situation, we can and should work around it)
All wonderful ideas IMO 
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Hello, I didnt want to start any fire with this post. I know how admining a league is. this tread is moslty a joke. I know all the staff members that works for CPL. If you read carefully I just mentionned I did a meme per day about CPL 9 when? it was moslty a reply to Y2kid promoting a coach showmatch for CPL and I tought it would be funny if I did a post here. Don't get me wrong, I am a team admin and an app tester for CPL. I know I am not part of the real staff people but the purpose of this post is not to put any pressure on them. I am aware the % of chance next CPL will be before xmas is pretty low.If you would be in the CPL you would have understand its a joke but I get it you are not there and it might have sound annoying for you.If you want to talk more about it fine but I consider this part of the conversation closed. Also if you know some people that want to learn more about broodwar low money 1vs1, dont hesitate to share the discord link above.
On November 16 2022 12:00 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2022 03:47 WGT-Baal wrote:On November 16 2022 02:13 Jealous wrote:Getting Involved:OP says CPL 8 ended ages ago. Mutaller says CPL "9" is his favorite tournament (guessing it was 8). However, the CPL 8 Liquipedia page is still woefully outdated. Seeding page is using outdated tables and has huge red warning labels about the time for running scripts expiring: Coach Pupil League/8/Seeding/Week 1Regular season results are not updated after Week 3: Coach Pupil League/8/Regular Season/Week 1VODs only up to Week 2 are added to the VODs list: Coach Pupil League/8/VODsPlayoffs page is empty, I don't see who the winner of this tournament that "ended an eternity ago" is: index.php?title=Coach Pupil League/8/Playoffs&action=edit&redlink=1If someone were to click the CPL main page, they would be under the impression that CPL 8 never even happened: Coach Pupil LeagueSo, all of you fans who want to do pointless activism on the forums to apply pressure to the people who actually do the work, here is a way for you to actually get involved. Start collecting information. Reach out to players and organizers for resources. EDIT: I just checked the CPL Discord, and an organizer uploaded not only all the replays but also all the results into a spreadsheet in #announcements it seems? Very easy to start going through and updating info. Start coding new results tables, copying templates, etc. If you love CPL and want it back so desperately, why are you doing no work to make it happen? If CPL 8 was your favorite tournament, why are you allowing the Liquipedia associated with it to be in disrepair? Anyone can edit Liquipedia if they have a TeamLiquid account. I expect OP, and every person who is here trying to apply pressure on the organizers, to demonstrate their passion by actually "getting involved" and fixing this situation. I think this was more tongue in cheek but everything you do highlight needs to be done for sure. Btw, would you join next CPL whenever that is? you do have a wealth of knowledge with builds etc Even if it is tongue-in-cheek, as a former admin, I get vicariously annoyed when people who aren't doing any work are demanding services from the people who do the work. You wouldn't go into a restaurant and order food and then yell loudly "WHERE IS MY FOOD WHEN WILL IT COME." CPL administration are unpaid volunteers so let them work at their own pace, I am sure they are not holding out on the community on purpose or because they just feel like torturing people with uncertainty. I find posts like this to be rude and selfish. And, as you agreed, there remains a ton of purely manual data-entry type work that literally anyone can do. My knowledge is outdated, I am 100% washed because I only play once in a blue moon, and I don't have the time to invest in CPL, but thank you. PS: Opinions are my own, I don't represent CPL in any way.
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Guys, don't worry, Esk is just joshing. He's been vicariously stomping his feet demanding the start of CPL 9, but we love him for it. Speaking as current active staff member of CPL, there's no hate or "I want to see the manager" going on here, it's just an in-joke.
Speaking of the Liquipedia stuff, this is something I'm going to be working on soon. Unfortunately I've had some problems with their templates and since CPL is such an unimportant tourney to them they don't want to do anything about it (like the preseason results being broken when using the new templates, but not with the old... among other things). So we have to do it exactly the way they say or the edits simply won't be approved. I'll have to update my scripts that convert database results into Mediawiki code at some point.
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As a (current) CPL admin I can shed some light around this. Thanks @Jealous for defending us, I think Esk's post here was more intended at meming and raising awareness than anything else. I can confirm that we, the CPL staff are working towards the new season and all I can say is that everyone interested should keep an eye on our discord servers as well as TL for future announcements. I wish I could say more but at this point I can only confirm that an announcement will come very soon but cannot be more concrete.
Re the outdated liquidpedia page. One of our members in the staff team was responsible for updating these, but their updates kept being delayed because afaik they were using templates that were no longer endorsed by the latest standards for liquidpedia pages. In the end it turned out that it was a lot more effort than it was worth and we do keep updates and records on our discord server as well as our relatively new CPL webapp. It launched last season and we are continuing to work on it, so it can be a single place of reference where people can find all sorts of facts about the league and its participants.
Also, we have done a huge effort in stream coverage this past season and all of our official and affiliated casts can be found on the CPL youtube page. What LUCKY_NOOB suggests about the donations will definitely not hurt but, personal opinion, it would not speed-up the process either. Since, as Jealous said we are all volunteers and we are doing it on best effort basis. It is unlikely that the community will be able to muster enough funds to make it financially worth it for us to organize CPL, but all donations have currently been returned to the community in terms of in-house tournaments (e.g., CPL Royale) and other sponsored events such as coach show-matches.
Hope this helps by providing some insights and would prevent this thread degenerating into personal opinions.
Opinions here are my own but I am also a CPL staff so I do represent CPL ^^
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On November 16 2022 02:13 Jealous wrote:Getting Involved:OP says CPL 8 ended ages ago. Mutaller says CPL "9" is his favorite tournament (guessing it was 8). However, the CPL 8 Liquipedia page is still woefully outdated. Seeding page is using outdated tables and has huge red warning labels about the time for running scripts expiring: Coach Pupil League/8/Seeding/Week 1Regular season results are not updated after Week 3: Coach Pupil League/8/Regular Season/Week 1VODs only up to Week 2 are added to the VODs list: Coach Pupil League/8/VODsPlayoffs page is empty, I don't see who the winner of this tournament that "ended an eternity ago" is: index.php?title=Coach Pupil League/8/Playoffs&action=edit&redlink=1If someone were to click the CPL main page, they would be under the impression that CPL 8 never even happened: Coach Pupil LeagueSo, all of you fans who want to do pointless activism on the forums to apply pressure to the people who actually do the work, here is a way for you to actually get involved. Start collecting information. Reach out to players and organizers for resources. EDIT: I just checked the CPL Discord, and an organizer uploaded not only all the replays but also all the results into a spreadsheet in #announcements it seems? Very easy to start going through and updating info. Start coding new results tables, copying templates, etc. If you love CPL and want it back so desperately, why are you doing no work to make it happen? If CPL 8 was your favorite tournament, why are you allowing the Liquipedia associated with it to be in disrepair? Anyone can edit Liquipedia if they have a TeamLiquid account. I expect OP, and every person who is here trying to apply pressure on the organizers, to demonstrate their passion by actually "getting involved" and fixing this situation.
Not surprised Jealous is completely correct about what people ought to do.
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On November 19 2022 01:18 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2022 02:13 Jealous wrote:Getting Involved:OP says CPL 8 ended ages ago. Mutaller says CPL "9" is his favorite tournament (guessing it was 8). However, the CPL 8 Liquipedia page is still woefully outdated. Seeding page is using outdated tables and has huge red warning labels about the time for running scripts expiring: Coach Pupil League/8/Seeding/Week 1Regular season results are not updated after Week 3: Coach Pupil League/8/Regular Season/Week 1VODs only up to Week 2 are added to the VODs list: Coach Pupil League/8/VODsPlayoffs page is empty, I don't see who the winner of this tournament that "ended an eternity ago" is: index.php?title=Coach Pupil League/8/Playoffs&action=edit&redlink=1If someone were to click the CPL main page, they would be under the impression that CPL 8 never even happened: Coach Pupil LeagueSo, all of you fans who want to do pointless activism on the forums to apply pressure to the people who actually do the work, here is a way for you to actually get involved. Start collecting information. Reach out to players and organizers for resources. EDIT: I just checked the CPL Discord, and an organizer uploaded not only all the replays but also all the results into a spreadsheet in #announcements it seems? Very easy to start going through and updating info. Start coding new results tables, copying templates, etc. If you love CPL and want it back so desperately, why are you doing no work to make it happen? If CPL 8 was your favorite tournament, why are you allowing the Liquipedia associated with it to be in disrepair? Anyone can edit Liquipedia if they have a TeamLiquid account. I expect OP, and every person who is here trying to apply pressure on the organizers, to demonstrate their passion by actually "getting involved" and fixing this situation. Not surprised Jealous is completely correct about what people ought to do.
But don't tellim that... Hell be impossibru now. ^_._^
Also L_Master is alive! Neet.
As much as I LOVE liquipedia and every1 who's ever contributed to it, I don't think having the results there helps.
For example:
2007 EVER OSL/Offline Preliminaries
Maybe more admins, mods and coaches would help spread the workload? I forgot if some1 suggested that already and can't find it in the thread...
Thanks for the info y2kid! And keep up the great work. https://cplbw.com/cpl/
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Netherlands5354 Posts
What? For any tournament people are interested in the results. Preliminaries results give insight why a certain player didn't make it into the tournament. "Why wasn't Jaehoon in OSL 2007? Wasn't Jaehoon pretty good back then? Maybe it is on liquipedia? Oh... Wait... I see... The Dong killed him in the preliminaries. No wonder."
On November 16 2022 02:13 Jealous wrote:
Anyone can edit Liquipedia if they have a TeamLiquid account.
I totally get Jealous' post. If everyone just consumes and demands nothing will happen. This whole forum, the BW community is a team effort. After you've consumed and consumed it's time to start giving back, so a new generation can do it all over again. Ideally you consume and contribute.
For anyone anxious about editing liquipedia or creating a thread on TL you can always PM a user with experience and they will usually be more than happy to help you on your way.
I encourage anyone to contribute: it will improve your skills, knowledge, understanding and appreciation. It's fun to learn something new and create something you can feel proud of and have fellow fans enjoy it (even long after you're gone).
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On November 19 2022 21:23 Peeano wrote:What? For any tournament people are interested in the results. Preliminaries results give insight why a certain player didn't make it into the tournament. "Why wasn't Jaehoon in OSL 2007? Wasn't Jaehoon pretty good back then? Maybe it is on liquipedia? Oh... Wait... I see... The Dong killed him in the preliminaries. No wonder." Show nested quote +On November 16 2022 02:13 Jealous wrote:
Anyone can edit Liquipedia if they have a TeamLiquid account.
I totally get Jealous' post. If everyone just consumes and demands nothing will happen. This whole forum, the BW community is a team effort. After you've consumed and consumed it's time to start giving back, so a new generation can do it all over again. Ideally you consume and contribute. For anyone anxious about editing liquipedia or creating a thread on TL you can always PM a user with experience and they will usually be more than happy to help you on your way. I encourage anyone to contribute: it will improve your skills, knowledge, understanding and appreciation. It's fun to learn something new and create something you can feel proud of and have fellow fans enjoy it (even long after you're gone).
Of course we are all interested in the results. My point is it's low on the priority list to run CPL. Unless it's being used as a live bracket or something.
By the way I would argue participation is contribution. It's not like some1 new just arrived and demanded it runs this second so they can join.. ^_._^
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On November 20 2022 00:54 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:
My point is it's low on the priority list to run CPL.
And my point is that unlike many other things which go into doing CPL work, it's something that can be crowdsourced, which will simultaneously lighten the collective load on administration and not contribute any additional labor to their plate in terms of organizing/delegating, because it's available to everyone. It's one less thing on their plate. I know that when I was an admin, doing Liquipedia work all by myself was overwhelming, time-consuming, often annoying, and felt like a thankless but unfortunately necessary part of the job. A current administrator who was previously overburdened by this project can now instead turn their time and attention to a different aspect of CPL, thus potentially facilitating the process of organizing the next iteration. Having a group of people dividing the workload is also a boon to one's very perception of the task, making it feel more manageable and less monumental.
I don't see why you're so hellbent on arguing against it. Perhaps you could enlighten me: what is your counter-proposal for what the average TeamLiquid user/CPL player can do right now to assist the administrators? What are you doing to facilitate the return of CPL that is so much more effective? I'm curious.
On November 19 2022 01:18 L_Master wrote:
Not surprised Jealous is completely correct about what people ought to do.
Miss you bb <3
On November 19 2022 21:23 Peeano wrote:
I totally get Jealous' post. If everyone just consumes and demands nothing will happen. This whole forum, the BW community is a team effort. After you've consumed and consumed it's time to start giving back, so a new generation can do it all over again. Ideally you consume and contribute.
☝️ ☝️ ☝️
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I just think that if a person is capable of editing liquipedia then their EffOrt could be spent elsewhere inside the actual organisation of the teams and w/e the rest is. If it really helps that much by all means go for it first. I just doubt that it does.
I tell every single new or returning player I see to join the CPL (arguably making it harder on current staff). And you?
On the point of updating liquipedia, can't the scores just be screenshotted over? As an embedded image? Seems that would be much easier than whatever the current rule is? They are made first at the CPL website right...
(I think this is a separete thread).
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@Jealous, if the intention is to have CPL be more crowdsourced, the project needs a better way of communicating that to people. Is there a page where all of the TODOs are gathered and checked off? Where are people suppose to find out current status of things?
At least have something equivalent to a GitHub page where the development can be tracked. Right now, we are just using TL.net threads to discuss this
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On November 19 2022 01:18 L_Master wrote:
Not surprised Jealous is completely correct about what people ought to do.
Miss you bb <3
Cautiously optimistic I'll be decently back within the next year or two.
It's been so long. Miss the game, miss casting, miss all the cool people. Just too addictive for my dopamine starved ADHD brain. Sorting stuff out so that I can "afford" (in more ways than one) that addiction
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On November 21 2022 00:19 Lightswarm wrote:
@Jealous, if the intention is to have CPL be more crowdsourced, the project needs a better way of communicating that to people. Is there a page where all of the TODOs are gathered and checked off? Where are people suppose to find out current status of things?
At least have something equivalent to a GitHub page where the development can be tracked. Right now, we are just using TL.net threads to discuss this
Did you try to open the link https://cplbw.com/ ?
Updating liquipedia is a pain in the ass and is not worth it from my POV, too.
In the past few years I've organized at least 3 tournaments in Bulgaria with 500-1000 EUR prize pool and you won't find any information on tl.net about them.
You know why?
- cause updating a liquipedaia page is a pain in the ass. Also if you try to do something in liquipedia it won't be publicly visible and honestly, the liquipedia responsibles are not supportive at all. They just got some outdated templates that are a pain in the ass to work with and nobody cares to make any page a public page.
And you know what? - it does not bring any additional value to organizers of mid lvl tournaments such as CPL. Ppl will join, ppl will have fun playing and networking, and this is the most important thing.
tl;dr: Liquipedia has no significant value, it's a pain in the ass to work with, and responsible ppl don't even care to make public the community contributions.
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On November 26 2022 22:00 BlueStar wrote:
tl;dr: Liquipedia has no significant value, it's a pain in the ass to work with, and responsible ppl don't even care to make public the community contributions.
+1
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On November 26 2022 22:00 BlueStar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2022 00:19 Lightswarm wrote:
@Jealous, if the intention is to have CPL be more crowdsourced, the project needs a better way of communicating that to people. Is there a page where all of the TODOs are gathered and checked off? Where are people suppose to find out current status of things?
At least have something equivalent to a GitHub page where the development can be tracked. Right now, we are just using TL.net threads to discuss this Did you try to open the link https://cplbw.com/ ? Updating liquipedia is a pain in the ass and is not worth it from my POV, too. In the past few years I've organized at least 3 tournaments in Bulgaria with 500-1000 EUR prize pool and you won't find any information on tl.net about them. You know why? - cause updating a liquipedaia page is a pain in the ass. Also if you try to do something in liquipedia it won't be publicly visible and honestly, the liquipedia responsibles are not supportive at all. They just got some outdated templates that are a pain in the ass to work with and nobody cares to make any page a public page. And you know what? - it does not bring any additional value to organizers of mid lvl tournaments such as CPL. Ppl will join, ppl will have fun playing and networking, and this is the most important thing. tl;dr: Liquipedia has no significant value, it's a pain in the ass to work with, and responsible ppl don't even care to make public the community contributions.
"Liquipedia has no significant value" except maybe the fact that I had no idea that https://cplbw.com/ even existed until I read about it in this thread? And that you need to make a separate account for it? And that it doesn't have previous season data? And I can't click on half the menu items (maybe I need to be signed in, so again, making a new account)? And thus it is practically invisible and useless for anyone who is trying to find out what CPL actually is, what its history is, how many players and coaches and administrators have spent hours of work on it? EDIT: Want to clarify that I mean no offense to the creators of the CPL website. It's obviously new and a work in progress, but to say that Liquipedia has no value, especially in the interim, is ridiculous IMO.
Maybe, given the fact that Liquipedia is an immensely popular resource that is used by dozens of gaming communities and hundreds if not thousands of editors, it is you who has the problem and not Liquipedia? Maybe you don't understand how to use the templates? Maybe your events are not getting approved because they are not considered significant, and you were told to edit your own user page for stuff like that, and thus you have a chip on your shoulder? Because for whatever reason, your anecdotal experience is clearly different from others'. For example, I had absolutely no issue with either Liquipedia or the Liquipedia staff when creating the original CPL Liquipedia page, from scratch, by myself. I see Liquipedia being used by prominent streamers, players, and organizers in other communities, and they all say Liquipedia is dope. Do you think, perhaps, it is possible that your experience is in the extreme minority here and is likely due to some fault of yours and not the service itself?
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I guess is good time capsule for good'old days nostalgia fix but nobody 'really' cares about liquipedia in 2022 tho
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This is not true, though i will concede it s less appealing nowadays, but mostly due to lack of editors. It s a thankless task.
On topic: can we have a timeline? End of registration for instance? Then preseason dates? (Or estimates)
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EPT
