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Hello people,
Just want to know about your feelings when playing ZvT with a quite bad connection between both players.
I recently played some ZvT with a lot of latency (opponent fixed it at extra high).
As we all know, without mutas micro, ZvT becomes an almost impossible challence to win. And with this extra high latency, sometimes there is almost 1 sec between the moment I click and the moment my mutas move.
In these conditions ZvT becomes unplayable and there is nothing I can do.
If I leave the game, I will just lose points without fighting.
And if I stay, I will lose 90% of my games due to impossible mutas micro.
Am I the only one to face this issue which is particularly annoying?
Thanks for your replies.
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Lurker builds are generally considered the goto tech choice in heavy lag, rough for T bio to stop/micro around
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On May 05 2022 08:21 WGT-Baal wrote:
Lurker builds are generally considered the goto tech choice in heavy lag, rough for T bio to stop/micro around
Lurker builds are outdated and generally don't work at higher levels. It's sad that zergs have to resort to what is considered unusable build by today's standards.
My advise would be to refine more understanding of what the purpose of muta is in zvt. The purpose of 2 hat muta is to primarily secure 3rd base and drone up as necessary based on the amount of MnM the terran has. It's best to just pick off reinforcements. It's primarily based on terran's unit movement and reacting as necessary. You'd be surprised to find out that muta micro is liek 70% of knowledge rather than micro. The 2nd purpose is to harrass scvs and damage terran eco. (I'd say this is more micro focused but it's not as important in terms of winning the game and guaranteeing the security of your eco)
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On May 05 2022 07:35 Powdream wrote:
Hello people,
Just want to know about your feelings when playing ZvT with a quite bad connection between both players.
I recently played some ZvT with a lot of latency (opponent fixed it at extra high).
As we all know, without mutas micro, ZvT becomes an almost impossible challence to win. And with this extra high latency, sometimes there is almost 1 sec between the moment I click and the moment my mutas move.
In these conditions ZvT becomes unplayable and there is nothing I can do.
If I leave the game, I will just lose points without fighting.
And if I stay, I will lose 90% of my games due to impossible mutas micro.
Am I the only one to face this issue which is particularly annoying?
Thanks for your replies.
I have seen lurkers straight up win games. I have seen larva defeat flash with it twice I beleive. And there was a game of jaedong uploaded to home of starcraft about a week or so ago where I saw it win.
On extra high terran can a horrible time vs the lurkers.
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lurkers or crazy zerg, duh
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Sadly Brood War player base doesnt support lag less games. In Korea the player pool is 15k + daily so they experience this very little. Unless they get a peruvian using a vpn to match them rofl :D
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On May 05 2022 08:33 Shinokuki wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2022 08:21 WGT-Baal wrote:
Lurker builds are generally considered the goto tech choice in heavy lag, rough for T bio to stop/micro around Lurker builds are outdated and generally don't work at higher levels. It's sad that zergs have to resort to what is considered unusable build by today's standards. My advise would be to refine more understanding of what the purpose of muta is in zvt. The purpose of 2 hat muta is to primarily secure 3rd base and drone up as necessary based on the amount of MnM the terran has. It's best to just pick off reinforcements. It's primarily based on terran's unit movement and reacting as necessary. You'd be surprised to find out that muta micro is liek 70% of knowledge rather than micro. The 2nd purpose is to harrass scvs and damage terran eco. (I'd say this is more micro focused but it's not as important in terms of winning the game and guaranteeing the security of your eco)
What's sad is we have to play tr8 extra high in the first place due to subpar design in remastered (vs most other blizzard games, such as sc2, even with Peru etc).
There is no "higher level of play" with lag because progames have no lag, so yeah in good conditions lurkers are less common (they do work though even at pro-level once in a while), but that s not what OP was asking, and he s also not higher level (no offense meant). There is no shame to play muta less builds in lag imo.
But since we have you here, Eonzerg, what would you do if you played in heavy lag generally? You re very likely the highest level of play around here, and i know for a fact you have experience vs laggy opponents since I had to field you in NW in less than optimal latency conditions ^^
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On May 05 2022 08:48 Soulforged wrote:
lurkers or crazy zerg, duh
Doesn't matter, lag and weak units is not a good mix it turns zerg into the worst race to play.
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Norway28622 Posts
Play old school, lurker ling with drops and going into hydra lurker (with queen or defiler support). Lurker ling allins are kinda meh (lag is pretty painful when executing aggressive lurker play), but drops are largely unaffected by lag (if anything it's worse for the defender), and defensive lurkers in key positions are quite a lot better than without lag (terran much more likely to donate their front 4-5 marines when moving around).
It def has a bit lower skill cap than muta based play does but my zvt is something like low S rank and I basically never make mutas - and my execution is actually pretty mediocre, too. I think one of the big advantages muta based play has over lurker based play is actually that the muta based play is a whole lot more figured out - which goes both ways - terrans tend to be better at facing mutas, and muta openings are entirely mapped out.
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T struggles with the lag maybe even moreso because they have usually have to react to mutas or ling/lurker flank
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T is by far the best race in lag, zerg is by far the worst -- if you disagree with this you probably don't understand the game very well.
As for actually playing laggy zvt I think your strategy should depend on what your overall goal is for brood war. One way to think about it is that extremely laggy games are detrimental to your play, if you try to go mutalisks it will actually mess with your muscle memory and it will have a negative impact on your tr24 muta micro. So one option is to get out of the game as quickly as possible in order to spend your time in non-laggy games, optimizing your playing time under optimal conditions -- you can either leave outright, or you can just commit to doing some kind of ling and/or ling/lurk all in and just instantly leave if you don't do enough damage.
Another option is to practice other aspects of your game, for instance you can go 3 hatch lurk -> defilers where you actively try to improve your defiler/lurk/anti-drop/nydus play. Even in lag, there is some benefit to improving your macro / defense / defiler multi-tasking.
If you're not playing to improve, but instead only care about gaining mmr (or winning laggy tournament/clan war games etc) you should figure out the best way to play under those conditions, options being some kind of crazy-zerg (either going lurk, or relying purely on sunks/ling/(queens) to defend until ultras; another option is the "macro" hive/defiler style of lurk opening, and lastly you can try the more "gimmick" things like ling all ins, 4 pool, 2 hatch lurk/ling all in, 2 hatch lurk/defiler, etc.
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On May 06 2022 04:30 Avi-Love wrote:
T is by far the best race in lag, zerg is by far the worst -- if you disagree with this you probably don't understand the game very well.
As for actually playing laggy zvt I think your strategy should depend on what your overall goal is for brood war. One way to think about it is that extremely laggy games are detrimental to your play, if you try to go mutalisks it will actually mess with your muscle memory and it will have a negative impact on your tr24 muta micro. So one option is to get out of the game as quickly as possible in order to spend your time in non-laggy games, optimizing your playing time under optimal conditions -- you can either leave outright, or you can just commit to doing some kind of ling and/or ling/lurk all in and just instantly leave if you don't do enough damage.
Another option is to practice other aspects of your game, for instance you can go 3 hatch lurk -> defilers where you actively try to improve your defiler/lurk/anti-drop/nydus play. Even in lag, there is some benefit to improving your macro / defense / defiler multi-tasking.
If you're not playing to improve, but instead only care about gaining mmr (or winning laggy tournament/clan war games etc) you should figure out the best way to play under those conditions, options being some kind of crazy-zerg (either going lurk, or relying purely on sunks/ling/(queens) to defend until ultras; another option is the "macro" hive/defiler style of lurk opening, and lastly you can try the more "gimmick" things like ling all ins, 4 pool, 2 hatch lurk/ling all in, 2 hatch lurk/defiler, etc.
Isnt protoss the best race in lag? protoss has so much splash damage and terran and zerg have a way harder time splitting on reaction. Terran can pre split, but when they try to push protoss in bad latency the storms and stasis are gonna hit hard every time. Plus the early game micro with lag favors the zealot.
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I'm not an expert on pvt, obviously, but from my own experience I would still think it favours T more than P -- lag is a direct buff to mines given their automated functionality; have you ever tried to micro goons against mines in lag, or loading/unloading reavers? It's a complete nightmare. Furthermore, sieged tanks are even stronger in lag than they are normally (and let's be honest, they are pretty good units without lag, too). For zealots vs marines I think it's pretty 50/50, depending on how bad the lag is obviously, and whether we're talking 2 gate proxied or 1 gate nexus type pressure. I also think nexus first is significantly harder to hold in lag. So protoss are at a pretty significant disadvantage opening nexus first and any build that relies on reaver micro or goon vs mine micro -- granted, it's not as big of a handicap as trying to open mutas in zvt on tr8 extra high.
In my mind though, even if pvt is 50/50 or there is a slight edge to either side, the fact that the zerg matchup is as advantageous as it is for terran still makes them the best race in lag. ZvP isn't nearly as bad as ZvT is in lag.
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Terran is definitely the best race in lag. Protoss isn't too bad, unless against teran really. Zerg is clearly the worst simply because of muta micro. I think lag favors P in PvT early game if you're applying zealot or goon pressure, but favors T in almost every other way after the first few minutes. Mines: Defusing mines is definitely possible in any turn rate but it depends on the control and how well protoss can adjust to the lag. Generally speaking, it's probably not very easy for most players in lag. Vulture raids: Being able to shift click probes in lag and not have to even watch them fight while macroing is very easy to do in lag. Siege tanks: Targeting goons with siege tanks and splitting a control group of tanks into 2 while targeting 2 separate bunches of goons is pretty easy to do in lag. It takes far more actions to properly spread dragoons and target different tanks effectively than it does for terran to siege and target.
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On May 06 2022 08:50 Avi-Love wrote:
I'm not an expert on pvt, obviously, but from my own experience I would still think it favours T more than P -- lag is a direct buff to mines given their automated functionality; have you ever tried to micro goons against mines in lag, or loading/unloading reavers? It's a complete nightmare. Furthermore, sieged tanks are even stronger in lag than they are normally (and let's be honest, they are pretty good units without lag, too). For zealots vs marines I think it's pretty 50/50, depending on how bad the lag is obviously, and whether we're talking 2 gate proxied or 1 gate nexus type pressure. I also think nexus first is significantly harder to hold in lag. So protoss are at a pretty significant disadvantage opening nexus first and any build that relies on reaver micro or goon vs mine micro -- granted, it's not as big of a handicap as trying to open mutas in zvt on tr8 extra high.
In my mind though, even if pvt is 50/50 or there is a slight edge to either side, the fact that the zerg matchup is as advantageous as it is for terran still makes them the best race in lag. ZvP isn't nearly as bad as ZvT is in lag.
ZvP not as bad in lag? I figured it would be impossible eating every storm in the face.
Maybe I need more experience with laggy games.
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Baiting storms with hydras in lag becomes an art form. It's actually quite fun, I'm sure Avi will agree. People like Eonzerg have become artists at it. If you're playing a good protoss player in lag, sometimes you can predict where the storm is going to be casted (most clumped area of hydras) and move/split your hydras before even getting damaged. I also think zerglings are much harder than zealots to control in lag. When in the protoss mineral line, sniping probes becomes much harder as a single probe stack and attack while you're multitasking can just wipe out all your zerglings. Zealots on the other hand? If you know you have enough to win the fight, you can just A move your zealots and multitask at home making probes, units, buildings, etc.
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On May 06 2022 11:09 EndingLife wrote:
Baiting storms with hydras in lag becomes an art form. It's actually quite fun, I'm sure Avi will agree. People like Eonzerg have become artists at it. If you're playing a good protoss player in lag, sometimes you can predict where the storm is going to be casted (most clumped area of hydras) and move/split your hydras before even getting damaged. I also think zerglings are much harder than zealots to control in lag. When in the protoss mineral line, sniping probes becomes much harder as a single probe stack and attack while you're multitasking can just wipe out all your zerglings. Zealots on the other hand? If you know you have enough to win the fight, you can just A move your zealots and multitask at home making probes, units, buildings, etc.
Interesting, for me having to go for the very suboptimal lurker build ZvT but they have a hell of time controlling bio seems easier the not being able to reaction storm dodge or micro vs zealots at all. It is not like there is an alternative build. But i guess you are able to become good at it, you probabaly know more about the laggy situations then me.
I did not think about how terran gets to target fire in lag. Then again, depends on the amount of stutter. When i am in a laggy game, there is not much stutter there is just a huge delay. If you had huge stutter that is better for terran, but with just lag protoss kinda wrecks because it makes spreading take much longer right?
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You don’t HAVE to go lurker in laggy ZvT. It’s just not optimal to go muta unless you have really good control in lag. It’s not impossible to micro mutas in lag, I’m sure players like Sziky, Eon, Avi, Trutacz etc with VERY high level mutalisk control will tell you it’s possible, it’s just not very fun. After playing thousands and thousands of games on iccup lag, I’m sure it became second nature for them to be able to micro in lag to win games. Same thing on Remastered against Peruvians. You either learn to micro in lag, adjust your openings, or just leave the game. If you’re an aggressive player and like to set the pace of the game, learning to micro in different turn rates is sad but necessary. With all races.
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Listen to Avi-love, he obviously played 10 years as a Terran and has good knowledge of this race mechanics. It is really the easiest race to play in lag:
- Since very beggining both protoss and zerg have terrible problems in lag with macroing properly because of so bad buildings construction mechanics. Terran is not affected by lag because it has scvs that can dance around even without lag.
- Making units in late game is nightmare in lag for both zerg and protoss. Zerg has really hard time selecting larvas from 4 macro hatches, usually placed next to each other to make those additional 24 units. Protoss has tons of gateways to select. each of them very expensive and skipping on one of them because of lag caused mouse-keyboard outsync can be disaster. On the other hand terran has very cheap factories and only 10 of them to queue each macro cycle. For sure terran has also much more time than protoss to queue up his units, because he doesnt have to watch his sieged on tanks, so the probability of outsync is lower for sure.
- Both zerg and protoss require good army management skills. Terran can just put everything on hold position and a move, in that particular order, to win game. Not to mention he has very low number of units without abillities requiring additional micro actions, in comparison to zerg and protoss. Basically only tanks, which you can siege on right after they get from factory and forget about them, because they can shoot across map like French Grand Canon in RA2.
- Terran has basically unbeatable BBS opening in lag, because marines are just A move units, something u cannot do with lings and especially with zealots.
- Did you see how speed lings are shredded by slow vultures micro? On lag its twice worse for lings.
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On May 06 2022 12:35 radley wrote:
Listen to Avi-love, he obviously played 10 years as a Terran and has good knowledge of this race mechanics. It is really the easiest race to play in lag:
- Since very beggining both protoss and zerg have terrible problems in lag with macroing properly because of so bad buildings construction mechanics. Terran is not affected by lag because it has scvs that can dance around even without lag.
- Making units in late game is nightmare in lag for both zerg and protoss. Zerg has really hard time selecting larvas from 4 macro hatches, usually placed next to each other to make those additional 24 units. Protoss has tons of gateways to select. each of them very expensive and skipping on one of them because of lag caused mouse-keyboard outsync can be disaster. On the other hand terran has very cheap factories and only 10 of them to queue each macro cycle. For sure terran has also much more time than protoss to queue up his units, because he doesnt have to watch his sieged on tanks, so the probability of outsync is lower for sure.
- Both zerg and protoss require good army management skills. Terran can just put everything on hold position and a move, in that particular order, to win game. Not to mention he has very low number of units without abillities requiring additional micro actions, in comparison to zerg and protoss. Basically only tanks, which you can siege on right after they get from factory and forget about them, because they can shoot across map like French Grand Canon in RA2.
- Terran has basically unbeatable BBS opening in lag, because marines are just A move units, something u cannot do with lings and especially with zealots.
- Did you see how speed lings are shredded by slow vultures micro? On lag its twice worse for lings.
...yeah this is basically my thought process. Honestly now thinking about it, defending vessels from scourge would be extremely hard in lag so if they ever got past the lurker stage they are probabaly ahead there.
PvZ in lag still seems impossible though, so zerg is the worst for lag.
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EPT
