EPTFlaSh's Crypto Scandal - Page 12
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jackel
12 Posts
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oxKnu
1179 Posts
The truth is most likely somewhere in the middle, like it often is. Unfortunately for the bloodthirsty 'fans', this witchhunt doesn't have a any legs and will most likely wane as time goes on. The irreparable damage is the reputation of the streamers and probably some serious money lost for Suit and his investors. A hard lesson learned for both parties. | ||
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jinjin5000
United States1418 Posts
On July 04 2021 20:54 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Take a break evilfatsh1t, I don't get how it is possible to continue to defend Flash and other streamers at this point. It is despicable behaviour to take advantage of your fans and viewers in this way, yet here you are again defending such behaviour. I know you are replying to him but for me that followed this case fairly closely, I'm more of on side that was discouraged by their initial and follow up response rather than whole crypto investment thing. The fact that their initial announcements and them dealing with the increasing amount of pressure has been disappointing, with both bisu and flash lying with their initial response or just didnt think at all. People can make mistakes or not suspect every side of how their actions may be perceived. They are people like us that can go into things without knowing all that much and get burned for it. And i dont think these guys are type to throw their legacy away to scam anyway, since they've always cared very much of their image (flash/bisu).However, their reaction to imminent backlash and their handling of case has been dropping their image a fair bit at least in my eyes, and have harmed them more than any good really. I dont think this incident is anywhere as big as ygosu/fmkorea/ dcinside/tabloid news websites are making it seem, but i am extremely dissapointed by their response towards it. But it doesnt matter what I think really, but general public. Once the incident fires down a little, maybe there will be a more retrospective look into this. But right now as it stands, public image is extremely bad on them with caster KCM calling flash worse than saviOr (I felt was bit much for current informations). But this is how it really is currently | ||
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flashimba
225 Posts
I would reserve judgement until we know more about this. I am hoping that this Suit character was a predator and groomed the opportunistic and naive streamers. The point that stands out most from evilfatsh1t's post is that Suit never asked the streamers to advertise the coins. Isn't it possible then that the streamers were merely cash cows that Suit used to fundraise for his and his shareholders' coin project? From what we know about Suit, he donated to the streamers to groom them, and by doing this, gained access to more streamers. Flash happened to be the first one he convinced. | ||
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Bakuryu
Germany1065 Posts
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JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
On July 04 2021 21:13 oxKnu wrote: Given all the information posted in this thread I think evilfatsh1t's reply to RWLabs and Nazgal's summary are the most important posts in this thread. The truth is most likely somewhere in the middle, like it often is. Unfortunately for the bloodthirsty 'fans', this witchhunt doesn't have a any legs and will most likely wane as time goes on. The irreparable damage is the reputation of the streamers and probably some serious money lost for Suit and his investors. A hard lesson learned for both parties. yes good points, I searched for their posts after reading your comments. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria3913 Posts
On July 04 2021 21:16 jinjin5000 wrote: Once the incident fires down a little, maybe there will be a more retrospective look into this. But right now as it stands, public image is extremely bad on them with caster KCM calling flash worse than saviOr (I felt was bit much for current informations). But this is how it really is currently This I think is quite an important point. KCM is a hugely impactful figure in the scene and he should be inclined to give benefit of the doubt to players like Flash who are of a similar status as he is. I mean, everyone deserves benefit of the doubt, but even more so from high profile figures, since they're all big bold targets for allegations. If KCM was in that same situation, he wouldn't want Flash to immediately disown him either. Also big thanks to evilfatsh1t for adding your take to the conversation! Thanks to you and others who translate things for us, we may eventually get to the bottom of this after all. | ||
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TMNT
2655 Posts
RWLabs post was informative but also very speculative, I dont really find his conclusions convincing. The bit, if true (aka they weren't acting), about Suit never asking the streamers to advertise the coin is huge. I wonder why the Korean community doesn't take that into account. | ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On July 04 2021 13:32 RWLabs wrote: I 100% agree with your statement. Note that this is a both off topic and morbid, so read at your own discretion. + Show Spoiler + During the Japanese occupation, there was a political activist named Ryu Gwansun. She and other activists on April 1st 1919 shouted "Hurrah for Korean independence!" in a political demonstration, for which she was apprehended by Japanese authorities. Refusing to admit guilt and after months of torture that broke activists older than her, she died at the age of 17. Since then, she became the symbol of Korean independence. In May of this year, Guemchi, Brittney, and two female BJs were jokingly talking about BDSM, and Brittney demonstrated what it would look like to be in a spread eagle pose during BDSM, raising both his hands. He then shouted "Hurrah for Korean Independence!", clearly emulating the political activists. It was already a bit fucky for most viewers at this point, but then Guemchi took it one step further and joked "Are you Ryu Gwansun of 2021?" It wasn't until later in the broadcast they realized how grave the situation was, and apologized. I admit, Koreans are hyper patriotic and uptight. Go out in Seoul and proclaim loudly that Dokdo is Japanese, and you'll find rational English-speaking Koreans willing to go to jail to beat your ass. Still, it was poor judgment to make a sex joke not only about a heroine in Korean culture, but also an underage one at that. The closest comparison in the West would be someone like Anne Frank, though culturally it wasn't a complete outrage when Family Guy made jokes about her. Maybe a better fit would be Joan of Arc for the French? idk I was so happy about the ASL reaching an all-time high viewership, the rise of two new talents in Mini and Larva, as well as loads of big name non-Starcraft BJs giving BW a try. But this incident and the Coingate shit really gets me. The aftermath is the accused becoming pariahs, yes, but it also paints a horrid picture of BW progamers and BJs to the general Korean audiences. This post turned out to be a downer, so here's a video of Sharp saying hi to his foreign fans. Thanks for sharing this offtopic tidbit. It's kinda baffling that they would even touch such a topic and risk being blacklisted, but then again, maybe they didn't think this through. On July 04 2021 20:00 evilfatsh1t wrote: Ok as a Korean speaker who's actually listened to both the ~30min tape recording and the ~1hr tape recording and have a better understanding of the context of the points made above, I feel like I have some duty to provide more insight on this. For the record, I'm not going out of my way to defend people because I'm some blind fan. I honestly couldn't care less what happens to Flash, and though I have a bias for Bisu he's hardly big fish at the moment. I will admit I am reserving judgment for far longer than I usually would but that's partially because I've watched the streams of most of the people involved and I find their alleged involvement in this "conspiracy" to be out of character, and therefore am waiting for more facts to come to light. As jinjin pointed out, ygosu is hardly a good place to find factual information. It is on the level of 4chan for gutter trash and the points above are evidence of that. Selectively taking single quotes from a 30min discussion and presenting it out of context to interpret it in a way that fits their agenda is hardly credible information. 1. The point about Flash being a financial advisor automatically meaning that Flash had extensive knowledge of the scheme is pretty weak. His appointment as a financial advisor is laughable and more likely to be a marketing stunt than him actually having the financial expertise to advise any organisation about investment. 2. Suit asking why the streamers signed the contract is in response to mainly Britney asking Suit to immediately return the invested funds to them because they can no longer be affiliated with the coin if they want to have any hope of reviving their streaming careers. Suit is essentially explaining to them that returning their funds and dumping the entire project isn't that simple as he has obligations to other shareholders (non public figures) that have been with him for up to 3 years. The context around the quote highlighted in RWlabs' post is literally this "if you were going to ask for all your money back the moment anything went to shit then why did you make the investment?" Suit was essentially calling the streamers out for thinking they can make an investment with absolutely zero risk, which isn't the case. 3. Flash talking about what it would take for him and others to return to streaming is brought up in the 30min conversation. Extracting a single quote from that and saying "the streamers don't have any remorse for what happened" is just straight up trying to make them look shit and twisting their words. The context of the first quote is that despite everything that happened, Suit and his original group of investors that have been with the project for far longer than the streamers still wish for the project to go ahead and launch. Suit points out that despite the bad PR the original team still believes in the project and wish for it to go ahead. A conflict of interest is now apparent between Suit and the streamers and the streamers say that for them to even think about returning to streaming the entire project must be dumped altogether. Suit asks "Are you 100% sure your viewers would forgive you?" and Flash replies "I think we would at least be able to stream again." As for the second quote, the context is basically that these streamers and Suit have met up to have an honest discussion about what to do moving forward and the current consensus is that the negative PR has put them in a no-win situation. Streaming is their entire life at this point and Flash simply brings up the issue of whether they'd even be able to return to streaming and with what image that would be. As for Suit his hopes are still to proceed with the project as it has been a business development years in the making and with the current shitstorm he's in a position where he can't back out but can't move forward either. 4. Hell yes they were paid to advertise the cryptocurrency. Now this is straight up false or at the very least twisting things in the worst way possible. None of the streamers present for the tape recording were paid to advertise the coin. Suit even asks "Did I ever ask any of you to advertise the coin?", to which no one responds. There's also a key piece of information that is revealed in the recording (first time I heard of it at least), which is that the guarantee is only effective if the coin fails to go to market. If the coin does go to market, then the initial investment is not guaranteed. The key conclusion then is that the streamers did not enter into a risk free investment; whether or not they understood this risk is another issue. 5. Currently there's no evidence to suggest that Flash's claim that he consulted with his mother isn't true. Flash claimed that due to him being in the military base Suit discussed with his mother about investing and after consultation with his mother, they decided to invest because Suit made a good impression on his mum. There's no new evidence to suggest that this never happened. 6. Flash was the broker beyond the shadow of a doubt Britney says in his video that he honestly suspected not just Flash, but everyone, of being a party to this "scheme". He does however go onto say in the same video as RWLab's link that Flash was not a broker. Whilst it is true that Flash first introduced him to this particular coin investment, Britney's position on this is consistent with Flash's announcement about why he got Britney involved. Britney therefore was very careful about revealing the fact that Flash introduced him because his chat was filled with "Who was the broker?" questions and looking for a target, and therefore would make Flash look complicit when in fact Flash was not on the same page as Suit and did not act as a broker. Honestly, RWLabs' post is a whole heap of tabloid-level shit that doesn't help to present the facts of the scandal. If anyone's actually listened to the tape recordings (I've only listened to 2 out of apparently 3 that are supposed to have been revealed), the only thing we can be certain of is that this whole scandal reeks of gross incompetence and ignorance from all parties involved. However, unless you want to make the assumption that all the recordings are scripted and everyone is acting, it's also pretty clear that the streamers had no idea about the coin being potentially perceived as a pump and dump scheme. Whether Suit knew and is now trying to control the situation or whether he was just hugely incompetent is still hard to judge. His general stance throughout the recordings I've heard is that this was a legitimate business idea that had been in development for years, and that his initial group of investors still want to proceed with this idea. This may involve a complete rebranding but dumping the entire project altogether is not something he wishes to do because he obviously has other obligations to shareholders other than the streamers. The involvement of the streamers was simply because he was a fan of the streamers and the continued association with them led to one thing after another. He cannot return the streamers' investments because the contract forbids it, however because he was a fan of the streamers he has personally guaranteed their investment being refunded to them. Judging from one of the recordings I listened to it seems like Bisu has already been refunded his investment out of Suit's pocket, however Suit doesn't have the cash available to immediately reimburse all the streamers and therefore there are streamers still waiting for their money back. The idea is that Suit will personally reimburse everyone and effectively buy everyone's TOcoin share. What is clear to me at least is that Flash included, all the streamers are clueless about finance or even about basic contract and commercial law. Britney in particular was hard to listen to because he was just ranting about why he couldn't get his investment back when his contract forbid it. All they care about now is doing whatever it takes to restore their reputation to a point that allows them to return to streaming, which is the only thing they have going for them. Unfortunately the witchhunt is still in effect and their viewers are not taking into consideration whether there was malice, whether anyone actually incurred losses or whether it is even plausible that Suit's venture was legitimate. As for the poor professional work on Suit's side, whilst it is inexcusable for someone handling a project with this much capital to be so shit at what they do, I'm personally not that skeptical because anyone who knows Korean culture understands that Suit isn't unique in acting like this if you're from a startup. Proper admin work is extremely inefficient, time consuming and quite frankly expensive, which is why many SMEs simply do not have administrative work up to scratch, including even contracts. It's why despite the huge advancements in living standards, tech, economy etc. in Korea it's so easy to get scammed still. Many people simply have a poor understanding of contract and commercial law and handshake deals and "trust" is still a huge factor in business particularly in the SME level. edit: added this part from my next post for cleaner summary To make one final point, to me this entire problem still stems from the fact that viewers are crucifying them for what could have happened in the worst case scenario. However the fact is that what the viewers are criticising them for did not happen and therefore to make the claim that the streamers were definitely involved in an illegal scheme that would have ended up with some viewers losing a lot of money is ludicrous. It is entirely possible that in the best case scenario, this scandal didn't blow up, Suit's venture is fairly successful, and the streamers' investments remained confidential for a long time. In this scenario people would win or lose depending on when they entered and exited but it would have nothing to do with a pump and dump and it would just be a normal investment like any other, where each bore the risk of their own. At this point it's pretty much impossible to prove one or the other which in a sensible world would mean "innocent until proven guilty" and everyone goes on with their lives; no harm done. It's gutter trash sites like ygosu, dc, afreeca chat, youtube commenters and youtube journalists continuing to fuel this when if they all just dropped it, it wouldn't make any difference to their lives. This was a fantastic post that goes into details and makes some good rebuttals to RWLabs' post. Thanks for sharing. There was always a chance that the coin was actually legit, even more so if the guaranteed investment wasn't a guarantee once the coin went onto the market. This paints a totally different picture of the whole situation. Likewise, Suit asking if he ever asked them to advertise it was pretty big too. As for the FobtGate, it was possibly just for marketing purposes, but did Flash really call himself a guru after that? It seems like he put himself in a worse position due to this imo. What I would like to know is just how much they spoke about the coin on stream? Did they name drop it a lot? Is there more info on this? | ||
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JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
On July 04 2021 16:10 jinjin5000 wrote: it never launched yet this was caught before released wat,,,, looking at what's happening and the comparisons to MATCH FIXING I thought this was some Bitconneeeeeeeeeeect shit. Is there any evidence that Flash and Bisu et al have malicious intentions? I am happy to be corrected if I'm wrong but is this a case of accusing someone of murder for having a gun, before he has killed anyone? | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
After I read the stories of Nada, SoulKey and Light losing a ton of money, I didn't feel as bad for my own loss and made me more motivated and supportive of other victims of scams. Most people especially investors lose money at some point in their life. Stocks and especially Crypto resembles gambling to me, If you know a lot about the subject you can mitigate the risk, but emotional control I think is the most important and to not get greedy. You should always steer away from something that is to good to be true, because there is no such thing as a free lunch. I hope if no damage was done, that they can get of with just a warning and a good lesson... This Suit guy should be investigated for fraud. To many notable players get involved in scandals that tarnish their name in the end. That makes the experience of the pro BW scene that I followed for decades lose it's meaning. I hope that JulyZerg and Jaedong weren't involved in any schemes, It would be hard to bear. | ||
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Leonix
161 Posts
On July 04 2021 09:45 LinYu_roy wrote: I love BW with all my heart; but why would any one listen to BW streamers for investment advice? Just buy a S&P 500 index fund and hold, if you don't know shit. Why would you listen to some random comment on game forum for advise of how to use your money? | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25018 Posts
Is it confirmed that Flash and others had some form of guarantee over their personal investments from Suit. I do think its considerably more shady to use one’s position and parasocial clout to potentially drive risky investments when you yourself have an undeclared safety net. And Jesus I mean will crypto ever pass the stage of basically being a get-rich or get broke investment vehicle? It seems to be getting worse not better in that domain. | ||
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cha0
Canada504 Posts
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BronzeKnee
United States5217 Posts
On June 29 2021 07:03 oxKnu wrote: Interesting how people are reading some of these posts as people "defending" Flash and the other streamers. Always black and white...the signs of the sad world we live in.. What? This is possibly the biggest strawman I've ever seen. Some people are defending Flash and other streamers, quite blatantly. | ||
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machinus
United States290 Posts
If this is a "scam," it's a pretty incompetent one. | ||
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LUCKY_NOOB
Bulgaria1423 Posts
On July 05 2021 20:19 machinus wrote: If you want to make money from investment fraud, don't you have to actually sell shares in something? If this is a "scam," it's a pretty incompetent one. You can just tell people give me your money so we can create the coin in the first place... (but don't do it) There are many variations. I've never gotten 200K with my scams... ^_._^ It's not a bad score and wasn't the only one... But it did come out eventually so not perfect either. I would love to get SHORT SUMMARY UPDATES on this... Especially if any investigations or lawsuits come out of it. And if any1 gets spanked. | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4175 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On July 04 2021 21:03 evilfatsh1t wrote: well nazgul literally pointed it out a few minutes before you made your post. im not defending him because im being a fanboy, im simply not accusing him of what you are because theres no evidence to support your accusation. even after all the posts in this thread you still stick to your line that flash took advantage of his viewers and tried to profit from their losses, yet theres not a shred of evidence that definitively backs your claim. i could ask you just the same to take a break. i dont get how its possible to continue to try and put their heads on a stick when its pretty clear that they were just stupid, not malicious. I don't need to take a break. Can hardly post less. I've made what just 2 posts before that one, meanwhile you and oxknu are on every page I look at, making up a substantial percentage of posts. If someone takes a guaranteed "investment" on a crytocurrency then advertises said cryptocurrency without disclosing that they themselves are taking no risk but stands to benefit, that is despicable behaviour. I really don't get it. It is as if Flash, the BW streamer, the greatest BW player cannot be separated from the Flash who exhibited that detestable behaviour. Personally it doesn't affect my enjoyment of watching Flash stream and play in tournaments. I'll continue to watch just the same. (Well, when he comes back from the military anyways.) It doesn't take away from Flash's skill at BW at all. | ||
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oxKnu
1179 Posts
This has nothing to do with Flash and his status as a BW player. It's mostly about bitchy fanboy netizens having a crazy-fit filled with a lot of drama and misinformation on top of some let's just say unfortunate business choices from Flash and co. Thankfully some of the great posters in this thread have not followed suit to the rapid-fire judgement of the situation and have offered some quality posts amidst the offensive and unthoughtful attacks from many others. | ||
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