There has been a scandal involving crypto investment going on involving Afreeca streamers including FlaSh going on in Korean right now. This is leading to huge backlash from Korean internet users
Background story :
there was a big donator named Suit, he donated to multiple streamers (not only bw streamers) millions of dollars, gifting big and famous streamers watches/expensive hotels and likes, and he started to recruit streamers (Sea, flash, Guemchi and non sc streamers) to invest crypto he was planning to make called "T.ocoin". They signed agreement that their money will be secured no matter what.
After this result, streamers said indirectly in their stream that they are investing in this coin. FlaSh has been mentioning it here and there on his stream and also mentioned in interview that he invested into a coin before leaving for army.
Sea had stream few days ago tried to explain his situation, he said he had a contract, and he didnt know, but it was found out that Sea was lying and streamers' money are secured no matter what on contract.
The biggest problem with this situation (although nobody lost money over this) was that money was pre-invested into this before advertising on streams without revealing it was advertisement, and tried to raise price by advertising it to viewers. A lot of fans have problem with this not only the streamers are people making money thanks to fans and donations, but they are trying to make money off of fans through a deceptive method on a preinvested crypto in effort to raise its price.
Hello, this is FlaSh I just woke up so I am sorry I wasn't able to give explanation in time. First of all, I've never told anybody to invest outright. However, a lot of people did ask me if I still do crypto nowadays. For me, when I went to training camp, Mom put in around $200k to crypto "Suit" had made. And to people who were asking if that was alright, I've said that investing is something that you should do in amounts that wouldn't destabilize you, and you do it if you want to do it as if it goes wrong later, it may lead to blames later and also lead to human relationships collapsing. I knew this so I don't tell people to do it outright. My style [of investing] is that I think a crypto will raise, so I had been investing for past few years. But since these crypto had rose few years later, that's reason a lot of streamers said "I should have listened to FlaSh" on stream, and they had all been asking me what crypto is good right now. I've liked crypto from before and I always had lot of interest in crypto and I also had crypto that disappeared and at times, lost money investing. But this time, after talking with my mom, my goal was to invest once again. Once again, I am sorry for late explanations as I need to sleep early and wake up early to go to civil service. And I've asked Suit to return the invested money. I want to stream to explain this situation, but I am sorry I am limited to announcements. My mom had talked with Suit while I was at army few times, and while I was at boot camp, Mom told me Suit seems like a great guy, and trusted him so she wanted to put $200k, so I told her it was fine when I was in boot camp. I am Sorry for this situation and I sincerely apologize.
I am explaining the mismatch in the invested amount. I invested $200k of my own money, and the other $100k was from Suit loaning me the money. I had said $200k in my explanation since it wasn't my own money
I will be officially requesting investment withdrawal document next week on Monday and will upload the document. I am truly sorry for causing controversy with this investment. However, I must make it clear I did not drag other people into this.
There wasn't any new development to situation for past week so I wasn't able to do a proper announcement. I apologize. And I am sorry to dissapoint you guys with such disgraceful situation like this, and I am in deep regret and reflecting on this. First of all, I will be answering what a lot of people have been asking
1. Did you intend to do insider-trading? While it is true that I had a lot of interest in coins, I did not know the intentions behind paycoins. I never imagined that this investment would lead to insider trading, and I never had any intention to. However, no matter the intent, the fact that I did not look in deep enough to realize about how much damage it would do to viewers, and was just blinded by potential profit is mine to blame. I am very sorry
2. May 28th? I have not met up with suit on 28th at all.
I was able to recieve a lot of love and attention thanks to my fans and viewers as a progamer and BJ But to do something disgraceful as this and make you guys feel betrayed is something that I regret doing everyday and am reflecting upon I am truly sorry once again. I promise I won't disappoint you guys with something like this ever again.
I am extremely sorry about saying that I did not propose investing to other people in my first announcement post. This may seem like an excuse, but I was afraid of the situation I was placed in, and wanted to avoid it so I was not able to make the right decision, and instead said that I never proposed investing to anyone in panic.
First of all, I will tell you guys about how Suit and other streamers were related in a timeline.
First, it was June 1st when me, Sea, and Bisu were drinking together. (This was never about investing, but just gathering as friends) But in middle of it, Suit suddenly called and asked if he could join as well. So I asked Sea and Bisu if they were okay about it, and the two said it was alright, and Suit came. During that time, I had thought that Suit was someone who was a huge contributor StarCraft scene, so he had a great impression between us, and he sat with us naturally without any wariness from us.
Second, it was June 6th, with me, JustLikeThat, GGulTengTeng drinking together in my house. That also was just gathering with friends rather than being about investing. Suit asked this time as well if it was okay to come over and I asked JustLikeThat, GGulTengTeng if it was okay, and when they said it was, Suit came over. After that, talks of investing came out, and whether I intended it or not, the instigation came from me in the end, so I believe that it is my fault. And I regret that very deeply, and am reflecting on it.
Third, is with Britney. With Britney, it is true that I proposed investing without any relation to Suit. After he got temporarily banned from streaming, I thought it would be nice to offer help for him to at least get some income during the period, And with that, he came to invest with my proposal without any knowledge of it. Now that I think of it, what I did to Britney is exactly proposing investment. But when I was writing the announcement, I didn’t fully grasp the situation and wasn’t in right state, so I wrote that announcement very poorly. I am very sorry. People are saying that I did broker work, and I wanted deny that since I felt that wasn’t the case and unfair, so it seems like I wrote it like that. (T/L note: broker work akin to matchfixing)
If I really was a broker, I would have offered other streamers and close ones about the investing but, other than the 5 people above, I did not offer the investing proposal to others. And when we did talk about investing, I told them to not do in large amounts, but limit it to the amount you can handle. This was all extremely naive, but I had thought that at the end of day, investing is really something you should do with your own decision, so I wasn’t able to make the correct decision, but when I heard that Britney was suspecting me of something, that was when I realized it. From those group of people, I’ve known some of them for over 10 years, and if I knew that this was not the right thing to do, I wouldn’t have said anything about investing to them.
And finally, I’ve only ever had experience buying coins, so I really didn’t know anything about how the investing structure worked. I hope that you guys do recognize that I did not have insider knowledge or more in-depth knowledge of this than other streamers. And with the recent conversation recording, when I said about immediate return to streaming, was not about my return to streaming but it was rather about how other streamers were under fire for this, so it was from how I was hoping they would come out maybe a day earlier from this controversy. But as I am not the best speaker, I said something that could have been interpreted differently. I am sorry.
And currently, I haven’t gotten back my invested amount. And after the current event became public and I’ve come to recognize this is wrong, I’ve told Suit everyday to withdraw the current crypto business.
I’ve started this investment first, and because of that, others approached this easier. I’ve only realized now that my investment choice can dictate others and I feel the responsibility for this. For the streamers who were harmed because of me, and the fans and viewers, I am once again very sorry for this incident.
Hello this is Bisu I have something to say to the views, so I have written this announcement To be honest, with current coin incident, on June 21st, 2021, I have invested in it
**the fact is that I have invested in this coin, So I think I have to admit this however late it is Originally, through Afreeca stream i have previously said, That I have not invested in this **coin at all.
I wanted to hide from this incident that seemed to be growing out of control I am embarrassed of me trying to hide from this, as I was scared of this situation. I am truly sorry for not speaking the truth infront of many people
**I will tell you the decision behind me investing in this coin To someone inexperienced to investing, while the idea of potential high return on investment was very attractive, As this was high yield business, it was hard to make decision immediately
Rather than deciding based on my inexperience I waited until I’ve seen others who had invested in this as well And after, I have decided to invest, and have invested $100k on June 21st.
After this coin incident became an issue I’ve found out that in finance, this is considered “insider trading” and is illegal In the incompletely regulated coin market, I am truly sorry for investing in unlawful manner At the very least, I am thankful that the the news broke out to viewers Before any victims were made from this incident.
I am sorry for investing in dishonest method I am truly sorry for potentially leading My viewers, who had always looked after me, to unrightful path
I am deeply sorry for saying that I didn’t invest In fear of the implication from this incident in my Afreeca stream.
I only have realized that I cannot return to how it was in past no matter what I have realized only now, and apologize To viewers who may have felt betrayal from me and my fans I truly am sorry for this
**about my investment to coin To representative Suh, I have requested termination of this investment And am forming a termination of investment notice
I truly apologize for taking advantage of my viewers with my immature sayings And am sorry for announcing this through text announcement
A pump and dump scheme with streamers paid to shill in other words. Tells you how much they really care about their fans lol think about that next time you ask those progamers for a autograph or something.
On June 26 2021 06:23 oxKnu wrote: In other words, people like money.
This is barely news.
Yeah but when you have a loyal following of fans that support you and you purposely lure them to a pump n dump scheme which will make them lose all their money just so you can make a little more, I mean I'm just surprised if those people still follow him.
Nothing to see here guys, just normal investing: $300k into a noname coin from a friend, of which $100k are borrowed from said friend and insured against losses, while casually dropping the name of the noname coin during my stream. /s
On June 26 2021 06:23 oxKnu wrote: In other words, people like money.
This is barely news.
Yeah but when you have a loyal following of fans that support you and you purposely lure them to a pump n dump scheme which will make them lose all their money just so you can make a little more, I mean I'm just surprised if those people still follow him.
There were no incriminating details in the OP. And I doubt middle-aged men watching his stream are that dumb to invest ALL of their money in a new, unheard of cryptocurrency.
Flash and some other streamers got induced into promoting some scammy new cryptocurrency through some deal that seemed juicy at first.
No one in here is innocent, the people watching know that streaming is profitable as fuck so potential for shilling is huge, the guy that tried to lure the streamers knows that if somehow his crypto takes off, he can make a quick buck and leave after that, streamers can make a deal out of the crypto and the shilling.
This type of shit (not necessarily crypto-related), happens all the time. Google that former WoW player, Athene for another somewhat similar example.
At the end of the day, reputation-wise this doesn't do much. Those streamers that are mentioned are well off and are not going broke because of 200K. And scandals = still fame and eyeballs watching.
Streaming is not some kind of academic endeavor that is deeply embedded into morals and playing by the book.
Ruh roh... cut the sh*t Flash. This kind of garbage needs to stop.
On June 26 2021 07:22 oxKnu wrote:
There were no incriminating details in the OP. And I doubt middle-aged men watching his stream are that dumb to invest ALL of their money in a new, unheard of cryptocurrency.
On June 26 2021 06:23 oxKnu wrote: In other words, people like money.
This is barely news.
Yeah but when you have a loyal following of fans that support you and you purposely lure them to a pump n dump scheme which will make them lose all their money just so you can make a little more, I mean I'm just surprised if those people still follow him.
There were no incriminating details in the OP. And I doubt middle-aged men watching his stream are that dumb to invest ALL of their money in a new, unheard of cryptocurrency.
Flash and some other streamers got induced into promoting some scammy new cryptocurrency through some deal that seemed juicy at first.
No one in here is innocent, the people watching know that streaming is profitable as fuck so potential for shilling is huge, the guy that tried to lure the streamers knows that if somehow his crypto takes off, he can make a quick buck and leave after that, streamers can make a deal out of the crypto and the shilling.
This type of shit (not necessarily crypto-related), happens all the time. Google that former WoW player, Athene for another somewhat similar example.
At the end of the day, reputation-wise this doesn't do much. Those streamers that are mentioned are well off and are not going broke because of 200K. And scandals = still fame and eyeballs watching.
Streaming is not some kind of academic endeavor that is deeply embedded into morals and playing by the book.
I know it happens all the time and I know how influencers work and yes they would lose all money they put into it and yes people are getting scammed in crypto everyday but that's not my point, I'm just saying he's intentionally financially hurting his audience (all crypto influencers are shillers but most don't bait to pump n dump scams) and all I'm wondering is why his fans would still follow him, I don't follow any streamers and don't care about what they do morally. If someone was a scammer I would just press unsub, but yeah idk maybe controversy brings in more views.
There might be a slight conflict of interest in promoting an investment that one is currently investing in but I'm not sure it counts as a pump and dump scheme because we don't know if they've sold many of their shares.
On June 26 2021 06:23 oxKnu wrote: In other words, people like money.
This is barely news.
Yeah but when you have a loyal following of fans that support you and you purposely lure them to a pump n dump scheme which will make them lose all their money just so you can make a little more, I mean I'm just surprised if those people still follow him.
There were no incriminating details in the OP. And I doubt middle-aged men watching his stream are that dumb to invest ALL of their money in a new, unheard of cryptocurrency.
Flash and some other streamers got induced into promoting some scammy new cryptocurrency through some deal that seemed juicy at first.
No one in here is innocent, the people watching know that streaming is profitable as fuck so potential for shilling is huge, the guy that tried to lure the streamers knows that if somehow his crypto takes off, he can make a quick buck and leave after that, streamers can make a deal out of the crypto and the shilling.
This type of shit (not necessarily crypto-related), happens all the time. Google that former WoW player, Athene for another somewhat similar example.
At the end of the day, reputation-wise this doesn't do much. Those streamers that are mentioned are well off and are not going broke because of 200K. And scandals = still fame and eyeballs watching.
Streaming is not some kind of academic endeavor that is deeply embedded into morals and playing by the book.
I know it happens all the time and I know how influencers work and yes they would lose all money they put into it and yes people are getting scammed in crypto everyday but that's not my point, I'm just saying he's intentionally financially hurting his audience (all crypto influencers are shillers but most don't bait to pump n dump scams) and all I'm wondering is why his fans would still follow him, I don't follow any streamers and don't care about what they do morally. If someone was a scammer I would just press unsub, but yeah idk maybe controversy brings in more views.
In the case of others, I wouldn't know but in the case of Flash I don't think it matters much. Most of the people watching want to see him play BW, I don't imagine that stopping anytime soon, whenever he comes back.
On June 26 2021 05:59 KameZerg wrote: A pump and dump scheme with streamers paid to shill in other words. Tells you how much they really care about their fans lol think about that next time you ask those progamers for a autograph or something.
So flash mentioned this on stream saying he is an investor, didn't tell people to invest and told people to do their own homework about what investments they want to make, yet he is still at fault?
On June 26 2021 05:59 KameZerg wrote: A pump and dump scheme with streamers paid to shill in other words. Tells you how much they really care about their fans lol think about that next time you ask those progamers for a autograph or something.
So flash mentioned this on stream saying he is an investor, didn't tell people to invest and told people to do their own homework about what investments they want to make, yet he is still at fault?
yeah it feels a bit overblown to me. I don't see why Flash should have to keep his mouth shut about his investments just because there might be financial incentive to talk about them and it didn't sound like he was hardcore promoting the crypto anyway.
Edit: tbf that is just my initial impression of things. There isn't that much english information out about this situation so I think we shouldn't rush to judgement too quickly.
On June 26 2021 05:59 KameZerg wrote: A pump and dump scheme with streamers paid to shill in other words. Tells you how much they really care about their fans lol think about that next time you ask those progamers for a autograph or something.
So flash mentioned this on stream saying he is an investor, didn't tell people to invest and told people to do their own homework about what investments they want to make, yet he is still at fault?
Don't care anymore, we don't need to waste our time with speculation
On June 26 2021 05:59 KameZerg wrote: A pump and dump scheme with streamers paid to shill in other words. Tells you how much they really care about their fans lol think about that next time you ask those progamers for a autograph or something.
So flash mentioned this on stream saying he is an investor, didn't tell people to invest and told people to do their own homework about what investments they want to make, yet he is still at fault?
Don't care anymore, we don't need to waste our time with speculation
Need more information but given they key part of the main post this at least is porblematic.
They signed agreement that their money will be secured no matter what.
This seems like a ethics violation and would probably illegal in the US. If your basically being paid to invest in something (to the point where you have 0 risk) and then your promoting it as if your just a normal investor that's kind of an issue. Worse than just investing in a friends thing because they've been helping you out or donating lots of money Saying that their an investor when it appears that their not really (secured money).
That being said. Definitely need more information and it doesn't seem to be the worst thing ever. I mostly take this as non financial professionals being taken advantage of and not quite understanding how it works. This doesn't seem super malevolent and they'll probably all be fine if they just apologize or give some money back or something. It's basically just somebody failing to disclose that their doing a paid promotion. Not sure how this stuff is taken in Korea though and there's still a lot of details that aren't known and it's unclear if the players were actually being financially rewarded in terms of stocks or increased incentives if people invested which would be a lot more problematic if the players themselves were profiting off of misleading their viewers
update if what flash said is true in this part
$100k was from Suit loaning me the money.
then it really doesn't seem like that much of a problem other than you should probably not take a loan from the person your investing in. again though this seems to contradict the rest of the information so prob will be a while before this gets cleared up
Pretending you're just a normal investor in the same boat as your viewers while at the same time signing a secret agreement with the crypto creator that any money invested will be refunded if the coin tanks is absolutely scummy.
According to Flash He is known as a smart/successful investor in the community?
"But since these crypto had rose few years later, that's reason a lot of streamers said "I should have listened to FlaSh" on stream, and they had all been asking me what crypto is good right now."
So of course people will listen if he starts talking about some new crypto he is investing in.
It's called market manipulation and it's illegal in pretty much every country. In this case Flash was used as a tool, and his friend was the mastermind of this. Too bad Flash fell for this, and I guess there will be consequences.
If someone mentions a coin or investment, you should assume they are invested into it. Otherwise what’s the point.
If the fans feel cheated I guess the streamers lose viewers, but ffs this is crypto bullshit, everyone knows it’s just about getting rich without knowing wtf is going on, and if you are successful it’s always because someone is buying at a higher price than you did.
Ok, Flash is a scam artist now, great. And that explanation is so remarkably stupid, laughable and so full of holes that I think it would've been better if he had not made it and consulted a lawyer on what to say so that he could mitigate damage. It's so obvious he knew what was going when he and pre-invested in this coin and THEN suggested it to viewers. Anyway, what a low lifer he turned out to be, it's astounding. But then again, greed has ruined way more important people than a random Korean with a few million dollars.
On June 26 2021 17:18 JoinTheRain wrote: Ok, Flash is a scam artist now, great. And that explanation is so remarkably stupid, laughable and so full of holes that I think it would've been better if he had not made it and consulted a lawyer on what to say so that he could mitigate damage. It's so obvious he knew what was going when he and pre-invested in this coin and THEN suggested it to viewers. Anyway, what a low lifer he turned out to be, it's astounding. But then again, greed has ruined way more important people than a random Korean with a few million dollars.
Not a scam.
Just a scummy thing to be involved with.
Scam has legal repercussions, this hardly does unless someone was really shafted and can sue him. Which I highly doubt.
On June 26 2021 17:18 JoinTheRain wrote: Ok, Flash is a scam artist now, great. And that explanation is so remarkably stupid, laughable and so full of holes that I think it would've been better if he had not made it and consulted a lawyer on what to say so that he could mitigate damage. It's so obvious he knew what was going when he and pre-invested in this coin and THEN suggested it to viewers. Anyway, what a low lifer he turned out to be, it's astounding. But then again, greed has ruined way more important people than a random Korean with a few million dollars.
Not a scam.
Just a scummy thing to be involved with.
Scam has legal repercussions, this hardly does unless someone was really shafted and can sue him. Which I highly doubt.
I have no idea abou the korea legal system but in some countries it would also be possible to sue him just over "false advertisement". In some countries, influencers are legally forced to mark the "content" that is or can be considered paid advertisment. It's something the state would usually do though.
On June 26 2021 18:10 oxKnu wrote: Scam has legal repercussions, this hardly does unless someone was really shafted and can sue him. Which I highly doubt.
Yes, indeed, you're correct, scamming is the crime. If he faces a trial and is sentenced, then it's a scam, as it is now it's something else and I don't know the legal term for it. I used too strong wording. I'm mostly amused by the withdraw of investment. While investing, while hiding intentions and innocently suggesting viewers to buy this crappy coin I guess he must've felt alright, warm and cozy inside. But once it's public and it's now obvious what a repulsive, contemptible and greedy character he is, it suddenly dawns on him that what he did is kinda wrong if not illegal. So he starts feeling like withdrawing funds now cause he can't possibly be at a loss now, could he? And then it'll be all fun and jokes on stream once again, as if nothing happened.
If you think that, then there are hundreds of millions of repulsive, contemptible and greedy characters running around this world each and every day.
When faced with the opportunity to make a juicy profit, many will take the easy route and lower down their standards.It's the way its always been. Not saying the opposite doesn't exist, but this is very common.
Yes he's banned from ASL and all Starcraft related events for 18 months.
Jokes aside, although this is nowhere as serious as the Savior incident, there's gotta be some repercussions for sure. Korean netizens don't take these things lightly (see the Kpop idols). Flash is actually lucky he's not on stream recently so people don't have him to target. I'd imagine the other involved streamers are having a hard time now.
On June 26 2021 21:24 TMNT wrote: Yes he's banned from ASL and all Starcraft related events for 18 months.
Jokes aside, although this is nowhere as serious as the Savior incident, there's gotta be some repercussions for sure. Korean netizens don't take these things lightly (see the Kpop idols). Flash is actually lucky he's not on stream recently so people don't have him to target. I'd imagine the other involved streamers are having a hard time now.
The complex part of "coingate" is the fact that it's difficult to actually know which Bj's had actual knowledge of the supposed "scheme" vs just being lured in with the chance to make high percentage profits. Without some alien technology to read their minds you wouldn't be able to know. It's just speculation. I.E you have streamers like Soochan(lol streamer) who didnt invest in the actual coin but instead the company. Currently he's being ridiculed as being "retarded" instead of a scammer.
The reason why Flash and a few others (3 out of like 15 BJs) are getting more heat is because they had multiple live streams and meetups to eat and drink (offstream) with the main guy SUIT throughout the last few years.
On the flip side, take care of the sentiments of Korean netizens. They love to bury people by mixing a lot of false info in with the true details. There are huge private kakao talk message groups that try to control the narrative. Just like how they tried to bury Last during his ksl run, light during his ksl run, Rain when he became asl champ. etc etc.
Also, would like to add that the coin wasn't launched yet so no viewers actually had the chance to buy the coin. The most they could do is download the app for the coin.
Also, would like to add that the coin wasn't launched yet so no viewers actually had the chance to buy the coin. The most they could do is download the app for the coin.
If this is true, then this whole thing is so unnecessary aside from just clarification and apologies from the respective streamers to their direct supporters.
It feels like mainstream Korean culture is so inflammatory with any kind of story like this. Very trigger-happy and sensitive.
Yeah same thing happened during the Winter Olympics and some girl doing something she shouldn’t. It’s like they just wait for someone to do something wrong and jump on that person.
Here's the current facts on this "scandal", with more background. Will punctuate properly for once for an easier read: 1. We need to take into account a few things. Firstly, the tendency for Koreans to go overboard with any criticism and basically destroy a public figure. Secondly, the fact that generally, afreeca audiences (especially those that actively engage with the streamers) are considered to be serious low class people. Third, with very few exceptions, streamers themselves are considered to be likewise low class people. (low class as in scum, not poor). So already we can see that the stakeholders in this "scandal" are mostly people who aren't typical, sensible, rational human beings 2. This whole scandal is 'part 2' of another scandal that is completely unrelated to flash or the streamers TL'ers would be familiar with. A streamer called Kote has just been outed as a shameless, low life scumbag (literal criminal) and Suit stepped in to defend this scumbag. Naturally people's perception of Suit went to the shitter and the original girl who outed Kote as a scumbag now brings to light the fact that Kote was a huge investor of Suit's coin business. 3. After more investigation into this allegation it is revealed that multiple streamers have invested into this coin. It's not 100% clear which of these streamers genuinely knew about any pump and dump scheme or if any of them simply invested into the coin because a seemingly reputable, successful and extremely wealthy donor introduced the coin to them. 4. Regardless of this, people are now excitedly trying to destroy these streamers' reputations (see point 1.). The obvious argument by the public is that these streamers were intending on advertising the coin to their audiences with the aim to manipulate the coin price and profit, whilst potentially making a lot of public investors lose a lot of money. 5. Even worse, news has come to light that Suit is a scam artist with no successful business background or wealth. His business portfolio is an insolvent small company and his coin presentation shows clear signs of false advertising. 6. Therefore the public can say definitively that the coin is not a legitimate business venture and has been created with the sole purpose of pump and dumping. 7. Multiple BJs have made rebuttals to their audiences along the lines of "If you don't want to invest, then don't invest" or "So how many of you guys lost money from this? Why are you giving me shit?". This was not taken well, as apparently to their fanbases, if someone makes an investment due to the influence of the streamer then it's the streamers fault.
Some more things to take note of. Cryptocurrency is currently pretty much unregulated in Korea. Legislative framework is seen as a priority but it hasn't happened yet. I think the only thing that's regulated at the moment is crypto's taxation policy. What this means is nothing is going to happen to Suit or the streamers legally. Furthermore, as has been pointed out already, the coin hasn't even been issued yet. No purchases have been made and therefore no material losses due to a pump and dump scheme that someone might want to sue for.
This however doesn't mean that the public won't try their hardest to shit all over people who they feel were involved with bad intent. I expect Suit will see some suits in court by any of the streamers he scammed because it's highly unlikely the streamers will see their money back. As for the streamers themselves, depending on what their explanation is for their involvement I expect that this will either pass or they will get their reputation damaged. From what I gather (not 100% sure), some of the streamers that invested never actually promoted the coin on their stream at all. Therefore this gives credibility to the theory that some streamers really did have no idea and just invested because what the hell.
Either way it's pretty fucking stupid on the public's part to say that every single person involved were part of a conspiracy to defraud their fanbases. Not only has it not happened, but the decision to make any investment is their own and the investor bears the risk. If you're dumb enough to dump money into crypto because your favourite Progamer who spent his entire childhood playing games, has no financial expertise or higher level education, tells you it's a good investment, then you're a dumbshit who deserves to lose his/her money anyway.
tl;dr Refer to point 1. Dumbasses being dumbasses. Now that this news is getting more exposure in the mainstream community, the reaction is less about the scandal itself and more like "LUL it's Afreeca again". Many foreigners probably won't know but despite the huge efforts Afreeca has made in recent years (with moderate success), Afreeca still carries extremely bad reputation from its earlier days as a streaming platform.
imo, the glaring part of this case is the advertisement without disclosing that it's advertisement. Its dishonesty and you can draw parallels to korean YouTube advertisement controversy we had a year back.
FlaSh had a very clean image and worked hard to maintain image fairly consistently, so seeing him take part heavily was a very negative thing to say the least. A lot of stuff floating online are inflammatory and pitchforks, but in end of day, FlaSh is supported by fans and work in industry supported by fans, and to mislead/betray that trust when he maintained his good image (including that ex-gf slander incident while back) for so long came as a bigger shock
Doesn't help that other streamers like Sea has been stirring controversy by saying stuff like "It's my money" (probably to gain more viewers for stirring shit up) making it look whole lot worse.
how many streamers have been confirmed to have explicitly mentioned this coin in their stream? as far as i know the point sea is making is that he made the investment without telling people. lets assume he didnt know about the malicious intent behind the coin, then he would have every right to say what he did. he hasnt profited from the coin and automatically assuming that he was going to exit at the right time, profit and simultaneously rip off any investors from his audience simply because he was involved is ridiculous. the fact is theres only 1 person that is 100% a dickhead and thats suit. besides him the whole thing is a witchhunt with the public just hoping they get to bury someone else as more news comes to light
I don't get the fuss, if Flash mentioned to do your own due diligence before buying and don't invest money you can't lose I don't see what's wrong. Elon Musk raves about Dogecoin all the time, if you lose money buying it can you blame him? Can you definitely say Elon is pumping and dumping?
On June 27 2021 13:08 Dante08 wrote: I don't get the fuss, if Flash mentioned to do your own due diligence before buying and don't invest money you can't lose I don't see what's wrong. Elon Musk raves about Dogecoin all the time, if you lose money buying it can you blame him? Can you definitely say Elon is pumping and dumping?
pretty much this. people so happy nowadays to shift responsibility to anyone but themselves.
Korean community is very noisy with this issue. Obviously, this is a criminal act. because it's a scam. In stocks, these actions are punishable. We just need to watch the situation. Problems with Flash have the potential to lead to really big problems.
On June 27 2021 13:08 Dante08 wrote: I don't get the fuss, if Flash mentioned to do your own due diligence before buying and don't invest money you can't lose I don't see what's wrong. Elon Musk raves about Dogecoin all the time, if you lose money buying it can you blame him? Can you definitely say Elon is pumping and dumping?
merely raving about a coin doesn't constitute pump and dump. and elon musk is not exactly a patron saint of ethics either. and i thought elon fanboyism died a while ago.
On June 27 2021 13:57 evilfatsh1t wrote:
pretty much this. people so happy nowadays to shift responsibility to anyone but themselves.
that sounds a lot like what flash is doing in his afreeca post in the OP dont cha think?
On June 27 2021 13:08 Dante08 wrote: I don't get the fuss, if Flash mentioned to do your own due diligence before buying and don't invest money you can't lose I don't see what's wrong. Elon Musk raves about Dogecoin all the time, if you lose money buying it can you blame him? Can you definitely say Elon is pumping and dumping?
morals (and thus immoral acts) are viewed much differently in the East relative to the West, there's a pretty big cultural difference
i'm sure that not disclosing the fact that he got paid to be affiliated with X coin is something that's taken much more seriously over there (albeit without knowing the exact law, just a guess)
On June 27 2021 13:08 Dante08 wrote: I don't get the fuss, if Flash mentioned to do your own due diligence before buying and don't invest money you can't lose I don't see what's wrong. Elon Musk raves about Dogecoin all the time, if you lose money buying it can you blame him? Can you definitely say Elon is pumping and dumping?
merely raving about a coin doesn't constitute pump and dump. and elon musk is not exactly a patron saint of ethics either. and i thought elon fanboyism died a while ago.
pretty much this. people so happy nowadays to shift responsibility to anyone but themselves.
that sounds a lot like what flash is doing in his afreeca post in the OP dont cha think?
who exactly is flash shifting responsibility on to? his mum? he says he and his mum decided to invest into suit's proposal because they trusted who suit was as a man. he also claims that hes always had disclaimers in his streams whenever he spoke about crypto about how his viewers should do their own due diligence. its the viewers who think that any losses that a viewer might have been at the end of are automatically the fault of the streamer. apparently its so warped to think that the purchaser should be responsible for their own purchases. what a world we live in
edit: some more allegations being made now. apparently the ceo of a subsidiary of afreeca is also an initial investor, along with another rich guy associated with suit. suit is the frontman of the operation but in reality hes being backed by people who obviously have lots of money, which is how suit was able to fund his donations to streamers despite having nothing. it also explains afreeca's silence on the matter as well as the questionable stance of many streamers who didnt want to reveal more details about the coin, including britney. britney admitted to also being an investor despite no one calling him out on it (another case of a streamer investing without promoting), but refused to divulge more details. clearly he knew that if he divulged more then he would expose an alleged link between the coin and afreecatv itself, and thats counterproductive to him seeing as he is contracted to afreecatv as a partner.
the above are just further allegations so well need to wait and see what the truth is but it seems like this story is getting spicier. in my opinion i think we still have to wait and see whether this coin was actually devised with the sole intention of a pump and dump or whether it was a legitimate business venture that wanted to cut some corners to gain traction (misrepresentation of its partnerships). the coin apparently does have actual partners that are willing to accept the coin as currency already, so on the surface the business potential was there as a digital currency that was ready to be widely adopted by businesses. it could just be that suit's incredibly shit reputation from his association with kote and his deceitful nature has just led viewers to jump the gun and assume this whole operation was a shifty pump and dump plan, when in reality suit was just a shit marketing manager employed by people who genuinely wanted to pursue the idea as a business venture. we'll see
On June 27 2021 13:08 Dante08 wrote: I don't get the fuss, if Flash mentioned to do your own due diligence before buying and don't invest money you can't lose I don't see what's wrong. Elon Musk raves about Dogecoin all the time, if you lose money buying it can you blame him? Can you definitely say Elon is pumping and dumping?
morals (and thus immoral acts) are viewed much differently in the East relative to the West, there's a pretty big cultural difference
i'm sure that not disclosing the fact that he got paid to be affiliated with X coin is something that's taken much more seriously over there (albeit without knowing the exact law, just a guess)
There is a difference between provision of financial advise and just general macroeconomic advise. If Flash told people "go and buy this coin, it's a good coin and you'll be able to earn money", that would be a problem. But what he mentioned was something like "this coin is good, but please do your own homework and don't buy anything you can't afford losing" which is not financial advice.
Theft is theft and scams are scams no matter if you're in the east or west, so this doesn't apply. The only thing unfortunate is that this is linked to a dodgy person, and presumably Flash didn't know about this at the start.
And as someone mentioned the coin didn't even launch, so I'm pretty sure this is just Korean netizens making a mountain out of a molehill as usual.
On June 27 2021 13:08 Dante08 wrote: I don't get the fuss, if Flash mentioned to do your own due diligence before buying and don't invest money you can't lose I don't see what's wrong. Elon Musk raves about Dogecoin all the time, if you lose money buying it can you blame him? Can you definitely say Elon is pumping and dumping?
merely raving about a coin doesn't constitute pump and dump. and elon musk is not exactly a patron saint of ethics either. and i thought elon fanboyism died a while ago.
On June 27 2021 13:08 Dante08 wrote: I don't get the fuss, if Flash mentioned to do your own due diligence before buying and don't invest money you can't lose I don't see what's wrong. Elon Musk raves about Dogecoin all the time, if you lose money buying it can you blame him? Can you definitely say Elon is pumping and dumping?
morals (and thus immoral acts) are viewed much differently in the East relative to the West, there's a pretty big cultural difference
i'm sure that not disclosing the fact that he got paid to be affiliated with X coin is something that's taken much more seriously over there (albeit without knowing the exact law, just a guess)
There is a difference between provision of financial advise and just general macroeconomic advise. If Flash told people "go and buy this coin, it's a good coin and you'll be able to earn money", that would be a problem. But what he mentioned was something like "this coin is good, but please do your own homework and don't buy anything you can't afford losing" which is not financial advice.
Theft is theft and scams are scams no matter if you're in the east or west, so this doesn't apply. The only thing unfortunate is that this is linked to a dodgy person, and presumably Flash didn't know about this at the start.
And as someone mentioned the coin didn't even launch, so I'm pretty sure this is just Korean netizens making a mountain out of a molehill as usual.
how do you know what was exactly said? it's tough to talk about this without seeing a (translated ;]) vid to get context etc.
안녕하세요, 김택용입니다. 시청자분들께 드릴 말씀이 있어서 공지문을 작성했습니다. 사실부터 말씀드리자면, 이번 **코인사건에, 2021년 6월 21일 투자를 진행했습니다. **코인에 제가 투자한 것이 사실이기에, 늦게나마 사실을 밝혀야 한다고 생각했습니다. 기존에 저는 아프리카 개인방송국을 통해, **코인에 투자하지 않았다고 말씀드린 바 있습니다. 이는 점점 커져가는 상황이 무서워 회피하고 싶었던 마음이었습니다. 상황이 두려워, 상황을 회피하는 행동을 한 제가 부끄럽습니다. 많은 분들 앞에서 사실을 말씀 드리지 못한 점 진심으로 죄송합니다. **코인을 투자하게 된 경위에 대해서 말씀 드리겠습니다. 투자에 무지하던 저에게 많은 수익률을 낼 수 있다는 투자제안은 매력적이기도 하지만, 생각보다 큰 고수익률의 사업이었기에 투자 판단을 내리기 어려웠습니다. 제 짧은 식견으로 결정하는 것 보다는, 투자를 결정한 사람이 어떤 사람인지 조금 더 지켜보고 투자를 결정하자고 마음먹고 6월 21일 1억원을 투자 했습니다. 이번에 **코인 사건이 공론화 되면서, 주식에서는 이를 편수취라는 방식으로 불법으로 규정하고 있다는 사실을 알게 되었습니다. 아직 제도가 완전하지 않은 코인 시장에서, 편법적인 방법으로 투자를 진행한 부분에 있어서 시청자분들께 사과 드립니다. 이 사건이 지금이라도 시청자분들에게 공론화가 되어, 선량한 피해자가 발생하지 않게 된 점은 다행이라고 생각합니다. 그릇된 방법으로 투자를 진행했던 자신을 반성합니다. 항상 저를 아껴 주셨던 시청자분들께도 그릇된 길을 가게 만들 수 있었다는 점 진심으로 사죄드립니다. 해당 사건이 무서워 아프리카 개인 방송국에서 투자를 안 했다고 부인했다는 점 깊은 사과 말씀드립니다. 어떠한 방법으로도 예전처럼 돌아갈 수 없다는 사실을 지금에서야 깨닫고 반성하고 있습니다. 저로 인해 많은 배신감을 느끼셨을 시청자 분들, 팬 분들께 진심으로 사죄드립니다. **코인에 투자한 금액에 대해, 서**대표에게 투자 철회를 요청한 상태이며, 투자 해약서도 진행할 예정입니다. 미숙한 말주변으로 시청자분들께 실례를 무릅쓰고, 공지를 통해 말씀드린 점 정말 죄송합니다. 다시 한 번 진심으로 죄송합니다..
Google translate:
Hello, this is Taek-Yong Kim. I have something to say to the viewers, so I wrote a notice. To tell the truth, in this **coin case, we made an investment on June 21, 2021. **Because it is true that I invested in coins, I thought it was time to reveal the truth. Previously, I was through an African private broadcasting station, **I mentioned that I did not invest in coins. This was a feeling that I wanted to avoid because I was afraid of a growing situation. I'm afraid of the situation, and I'm ashamed that I acted to avoid the situation. I sincerely apologize for not telling the truth in front of many people. **I will tell you about how I got to invest in coins. The investment proposal that it can yield a lot of returns is attractive to me, who was ignorant of investment It was difficult to make an investment decision because it was a high-yield business that was larger than expected. Rather than deciding based on my short insight, Watch a little more and see who made the investment decision. I decided to make an investment and invested 100 million won on June 21st. This time, as the **Coin case became public, I found out that stocks are illegally stipulating this as a one-sided take. In the coin market where the system is not yet complete, We apologize to the viewers for making the investment in an expedient way. Even now, this case has become a public debate among viewers, I think it's fortunate that there were no innocent victims. I reflect on myself for making an investment in the wrong way. To the viewers who always cared for me, I took the wrong path. We sincerely apologize that we were able to set up the store. Afraid of the incident, an African private broadcasting station We deeply apologize for denying that we did not invest. The fact that there is no way to go back to the way it was before It is only now that I realize and reflect. Viewers who must have felt a lot of betrayal because of me, We sincerely apologize to the fans. **About the amount invested in the coin, Seo** has requested the withdrawal of the investment, We will also proceed with the cancellation of investment. In spite of being disrespectful to the viewers by around inexperienced words, I'm really sorry for what I said through the notice. Once again I'm really sorry.
Seems like they're comming down on him hard in the youtube comments, comparing this to the match fixing scandal and saying they're responsible for ruining starcraft when it's finally on the upswing again.
Not surprised to see Bisu a part of this, he really loves his money...then again who doesn't.
Bisu released announcement after an announcement that more people on the investment list will be released in the media
Announcement from Bisu
I have something to say to the viewer, so I have written this announcement To be honest, with current coin incident, on June 21st, 2021, I have invested in it
**in truth, I have invested in this coin, So I think I have to admit this however late it is Originally, through Afreeca stream i have previously said that I have not invested in this **coin at all.
I wanted to hide from this incident that seemed to be growing out of control I am embarrassed of me trying to hide from this, as I was scared of this situation. I am truly sorry for not speaking the truth infront of many people
**I will tell you the decision behind me investing in this coin To someone inexperienced to investing, while the idea of potential high return on investment was very attractive, As this was high yield business, it was hard to make decision immediately
Rather than deciding based on my inexperience , I waited until I’ve seen others who had invested in this as well And after, I have decided to invest, and have invested $100k on June 21st.
After this coin incident became an issue I’ve found out that in finance, this is considered “insider trading” and is illegal In the incompletely regulated coin market, I am truly sorry for investing in unlawful manner At the very least, I am thankful that the the news broke out to viewers Before any victims were made from this incident.
I am sorry for investing in dishonest method I am truly sorry for potentially leading my viewers, who had always looked after me, to unrightful path
I am deeply sorry for saying that I didn’t invest in fear of the repercussions from this incident in my Afreeca stream.
I only have realized that I cannot return to how it was in past no matter what I have realized only now, and apologize
To viewers who may have felt betrayal from me and my fans , I truly am sorry for this
**about my investment to coin To representative Suh, I have requested termination of this investment And am forming a termination of investment notice
I truly apologize for taking advantage of my viewers with my immature sayings And am sorry for announcing this through text announcement
Hmm, not sure why his fans are coming down hard on him. From this announcement Bisu looks more like the victim than the culprit. So he only made an investment last week, after seeing other streamers also investing on this coin and thinking to himself "ahhh easy money there". The most important thing is he didn't promote it whatsoever.
The wrongful part in Bisu's act is denying the investment at first, and now he has to backtrack on it. Should have played victim from the beginning imo. Unless there are details we haven't known yet.
This is what u get with this generation... There are so many people out the trying to advice you to invest in different crypto now. And people often take their word for it, instead of just spend 2 minutes on google search about the different cryptos that they have been adviced to buy. And when they do buy these shitcoíns that they have been lured into buying, dont infact MOON as they want it to. They blame the people who adviced them about it, instead of blaming themself. Do your research before ANY investment, there are no certain investment, ever! So if ur not man/woman enough to take the hit from UR investment, dont do it! Very simple, but instead they come crying on the internet because they didnt get rich from some shitcoin who was meant to MOON.
On June 27 2021 22:14 theaGOny wrote: This is what u get with this generation... There are so many people out the trying to advice you to invest in different crypto now. And people often take their word for it, instead of just spend 2 minutes on google search about the different cryptos that they have been adviced to buy. And when they do buy these shitcoíns that they have been lured into buying, dont infact MOON as they want it to. They blame the people who adviced them about it, instead of blaming themself. Do your research before ANY investment, there are no certain investment, ever! So if ur not man/woman enough to take the hit from UR investment, dont do it! Very simple, but instead they come crying on the internet because they didnt get rich from some shitcoin who was meant to MOON.
This coin hasn't released to public yet, but rather insider trading before planned public release. Its not illegal in terms of coins but dishonest
Also bisu released this announcement after they announced more investor names will be released...
LOL at the people who considered that this could possibly be a "legitimate" coin. 99% of them are pump and dump schemes with the rare exception of the ones backed by scientists, whitepapers and open source technology stacks. Quite sure your man "Suit" is not reinventing the blockchain here dudes.
On June 26 2021 19:11 oxKnu wrote: there are hundreds of millions of repulsive, contemptible and greedy characters running around this world each and every day.
You are absolutely right & correct. Welcome to earth 2021. This might be my new sig thanks
It feels like it almost doesn't particularly matter what the details are. What really matters is that these streamers' fans feel betrayed, and this is something that will hurt their reputation in the long term.
When people see money, they stop thinking critically. Especially when cryptocurrency is involved because of how ridiculously profitable it can be. I think there's a serious case to be made that they were fooled by a sharp looking businessman who gave them the impression that this is a normal way to conduct investments. Especially when they're a well known figure.
In the end I don't think anything "serious" will happen to them. They likely won't be prosecuted for anything. It's also actually not uncommon for coins to have private initial investment rounds. There's a reason why there are so many of these random coins and it seems like there's new ones every day: it's a tool for rich people to get richer, and that requires cash injections from the public. When things like this happen, that's just made all the more clear.
All that being said, people like Flash and Bisu should really have thought longer and harder about what they were doing. Don't shill random coins to people, and if you do you need to disclose everything. People are right to complain.
It's still a rapidly developing story with new information coming out every few hours. Like jinjin said, there are a bunch of streamers involved, so if any of them end up revealing the content of their conversations with Suit, we'd have a better idea of how this investment opportunity may have been pitched to them all.
I think it's important to not overestimate the financial literacy of the streamers/BW pros involved. Crypto has been hot topic on Afreeca for several months now and there were a ton of folks, including streamers that were otherwise gaming streamers, doing Crypto trading streams. I can't say for sure about Flash/Bisu, but it was very obvious how little many of the other Afreeca streamers knew about how Crypto actually works and where it's value is actually derived from, but Crypto trading/discussion streams have definitely been a trendy thing to do, and to be fair, most have been transparent about the fact that they really don't fully understand it. Not trying to disparage anyone, but it also might be important to consider the general level of education of the parties involved as well. Sea jokes often about how he majored in Gaming at Sejong Cyber University and didn't receive much of an education. I don't think that Bisu, Flash, Britney, or Geumchi have college degrees.
Also important to consider that Suit spent several months donating to streamers across Afreeca categories, guesting on streams as well, in what in retrospect seems to have been an attempt to "groom" the community, gaining credibility and earning the trust of most of the major streamers.
I'm not trying to make excuses for the BW pros involved, just giving some additional food for thought. It's possible that they fully understood the extent of what they were getting involved in, but it's also possible that the way that this was pitched to them made them believe that it was a legitimate investment opportunity (like Dada_ mentioned above), not a scheme to exploit their viewer base.
Hopefully we can get some more details, so that we can know for sure whether they had malicious intent or if they were just a bit too ignorant/gullible. Neither is good, but I think that the former is obviously a lot worse than the latter.
On June 27 2021 13:08 Dante08 wrote: I don't get the fuss, if Flash mentioned to do your own due diligence before buying and don't invest money you can't lose I don't see what's wrong. Elon Musk raves about Dogecoin all the time, if you lose money buying it can you blame him? Can you definitely say Elon is pumping and dumping?
morals (and thus immoral acts) are viewed much differently in the East relative to the West, there's a pretty big cultural difference
Sorry to derail, but I have to say this is really not true. Basic stuff like not lying for personal gain is universal to all cultures. There isn't anywhere in the world where scamming people for money is acceptable behavior (not saying this is or isn't what the streamers were doing), only places where unacceptable behavior is more common than other places due to various socioeconomic factors. There are plenty of real differences between collectivistic and individualistic cultures, but we tend to mystify other cultures as if they're fundamentally different at the moral level, when that's not actually the case.
On June 27 2021 13:08 Dante08 wrote: I don't get the fuss, if Flash mentioned to do your own due diligence before buying and don't invest money you can't lose I don't see what's wrong. Elon Musk raves about Dogecoin all the time, if you lose money buying it can you blame him? Can you definitely say Elon is pumping and dumping?
morals (and thus immoral acts) are viewed much differently in the East relative to the West, there's a pretty big cultural difference
Sorry to derail, but I have to say this is really not true. Basic stuff like not lying for personal gain is universal to all cultures. There isn't anywhere in the world where scamming people for money is acceptable behavior (not saying this is or isn't what the streamers were doing), only places where unacceptable behavior is more common than other places due to various socioeconomic factors. There are plenty of real differences between collectivistic and individualistic cultures, but we tend to mystify other cultures as if they're fundamentally different at the moral level, when that's not actually the case.
(fyi i'm saying this is taken more seriously in the East)
If you think about it logically, culture and values certainly have to be different in 1 race nations relative to multi race nations, simply because of the difference in impact that govs. also have. Asian nations implement much more aggressive policies (which in turn creates cultural differences), this isn't a myth. For example, look at the development that nations like Singapore (Lee Kuan Yew) have made in a short period of time. That was done through a rapid (relatively speaking) change in culture by the government and implementation of a meritocratic system.
also these are quantifiable things.. for example, you can compare the difference in penalties for certain crimes
While a lot of things are similar in cultures the amount that they take stuff seriously and the (generally social) consequences can be way way different. What might actually increase you reputation in one country can end you career and get you blacklisted from work in another country. Also generally Asian countries care way more about reputation and there's a lot more consequences. See how an Asian country reacts to a business scandal and what happens tot he people involved compared to the US generally.
On June 28 2021 10:44 zmfxms wrote: It's still a rapidly developing story with new information coming out every few hours. Like jinjin said, there are a bunch of streamers involved, so if any of them end up revealing the content of their conversations with Suit, we'd have a better idea of how this investment opportunity may have been pitched to them all.
I think it's important to not overestimate the financial literacy of the streamers/BW pros involved. Crypto has been hot topic on Afreeca for several months now and there were a ton of folks, including streamers that were otherwise gaming streamers, doing Crypto trading streams. I can't say for sure about Flash/Bisu, but it was very obvious how little many of the other Afreeca streamers knew about how Crypto actually works and where it's value is actually derived from, but Crypto trading/discussion streams have definitely been a trendy thing to do, and to be fair, most have been transparent about the fact that they really don't fully understand it. Not trying to disparage anyone, but it also might be important to consider the general level of education of the parties involved as well. Sea jokes often about how he majored in Gaming at Sejong Cyber University and didn't receive much of an education. I don't think that Bisu, Flash, Britney, or Geumchi have college degrees.
Also important to consider that Suit spent several months donating to streamers across Afreeca categories, guesting on streams as well, in what in retrospect seems to have been an attempt to "groom" the community, gaining credibility and earning the trust of most of the major streamers.
I'm not trying to make excuses for the BW pros involved, just giving some additional food for thought. It's possible that they fully understood the extent of what they were getting involved in, but it's also possible that the way that this was pitched to them made them believe that it was a legitimate investment opportunity (like Dada_ mentioned above), not a scheme to exploit their viewer base.
Hopefully we can get some more details, so that we can know for sure whether they had malicious intent or if they were just a bit too ignorant/gullible. Neither is good, but I think that the former is obviously a lot worse than the latter.
Ignorantia juris non excusat. Both in law, and imo also morally (the latter of which is more relevant, bc I don't think what has transcribed is illegal and punishable by law).
On June 27 2021 13:08 Dante08 wrote: I don't get the fuss, if Flash mentioned to do your own due diligence before buying and don't invest money you can't lose I don't see what's wrong. Elon Musk raves about Dogecoin all the time, if you lose money buying it can you blame him? Can you definitely say Elon is pumping and dumping?
morals (and thus immoral acts) are viewed much differently in the East relative to the West, there's a pretty big cultural difference
Sorry to derail, but I have to say this is really not true. Basic stuff like not lying for personal gain is universal to all cultures. There isn't anywhere in the world where scamming people for money is acceptable behavior (not saying this is or isn't what the streamers were doing), only places where unacceptable behavior is more common than other places due to various socioeconomic factors. There are plenty of real differences between collectivistic and individualistic cultures, but we tend to mystify other cultures as if they're fundamentally different at the moral level, when that's not actually the case.
(fyi i'm saying this is taken more seriously in the East)
If you think about it logically, culture and values certainly have to be different in 1 race nations relative to multi race nations, simply because of the difference in impact that govs. also have. Asian nations implement much more aggressive policies (which in turn creates cultural differences), this isn't a myth. For example, look at the development that nations like Singapore (Lee Kuan Yew) have made in a short period of time. That was done through a change in culture by the government and implementation of a meritocratic system.
also these are quantifiable things.. for example, you can compare the difference in penalties for certain crimes
My bad, hungover reading comprehension failure on my part. Thought you meant morality is different in the East relative to the West, rather than how morality is perceived.
All good points. It is pretty apparent the general public in SK hold public figures including streamers to significantly different standards than say, the US.
Ignorantia juris non excusat. Both in law, and imo also morally (the latter of which is more relevant, bc I don't think what has transcribed is illegal and punishable by law).
Just a reminder for every new person reading this thread.
This is all just fan-drama from the afreeca community at its very core.
You should seriously think about what TT1 has to say about Eastern morality (Confucian culture). As a Korean, I totally agree with TT1's opinion. In the worst case, the investment of companies sponsoring ASL and ASTL may be withdrawn. In that case, ASL and ASTL are stopped.
On June 28 2021 21:17 Cruiser0929 wrote: You should seriously think about what TT1 has to say about Eastern morality (Confucian culture). As a Korean, I totally agree with TT1's opinion. In the worst case, the investment of companies sponsoring ASL and ASTL may be withdrawn. In that case, ASL and ASTL are stopped.
Understandable, however someone ceasing sponsorship or requesting termination of contracts can be because of many reasons.
If the under-lying reason is the negative media caused by this scandal, that's fine. However not close to the Savior situation which had incriminating legal repercussions.
On June 27 2021 13:08 Dante08 wrote: I don't get the fuss, if Flash mentioned to do your own due diligence before buying and don't invest money you can't lose I don't see what's wrong. Elon Musk raves about Dogecoin all the time, if you lose money buying it can you blame him? Can you definitely say Elon is pumping and dumping?
morals (and thus immoral acts) are viewed much differently in the East relative to the West, there's a pretty big cultural difference
Sorry to derail, but I have to say this is really not true. Basic stuff like not lying for personal gain is universal to all cultures. There isn't anywhere in the world where scamming people for money is acceptable behavior (not saying this is or isn't what the streamers were doing), only places where unacceptable behavior is more common than other places due to various socioeconomic factors. There are plenty of real differences between collectivistic and individualistic cultures, but we tend to mystify other cultures as if they're fundamentally different at the moral level, when that's not actually the case.
(fyi i'm saying this is taken more seriously in the East)
If you think about it logically, culture and values certainly have to be different in 1 race nations relative to multi race nations, simply because of the difference in impact that govs. also have. Asian nations implement much more aggressive policies (which in turn creates cultural differences), this isn't a myth. For example, look at the development that nations like Singapore (Lee Kuan Yew) have made in a short period of time. That was done through a change in culture by the government and implementation of a meritocratic system.
also these are quantifiable things.. for example, you can compare the difference in penalties for certain crimes
Actually I feel Korea is an extreme outlier regarding things like these. Just look at how they treat their celebrities and how many of them mentione the huge public pressure they face over the tiniest things. I don't see this happening in other countries.
Either way the people there need to just chill and stop being keyboard warriors.
On June 28 2021 21:17 Cruiser0929 wrote: You should seriously think about what TT1 has to say about Eastern morality (Confucian culture). As a Korean, I totally agree with TT1's opinion. In the worst case, the investment of companies sponsoring ASL and ASTL may be withdrawn. In that case, ASL and ASTL are stopped.
Understandable, however someone ceasing sponsorship or requesting termination of contracts can be because of many reasons.
If the under-lying reason is the negative media caused by this scandal, that's fine. However not close to the Savior situation which had incriminating legal repercussions.
I also don't think it's not nearly as bad as the Savior incident, but I do think the comparison is not as simple as comparing the severity of the actions. The scope matters, as do the (potential) victims.
Fans have every right to be angry. It's quite amazing that some posters can spin the whole incident into just fan drama and keyboard warriors.
There doesn't need to have legal violations or financial consequences for them to have such reactions. The key thing here is Flash and co tried to gain profits off the pocket of (possibly) their fans in a dishonest manner. In the end no one actually lost anything, but the fact that they were aware of the fraudulent scheme and still willing to go with it remains.
There're a lot of things not legally punishable, but are still seriously condemned by society.
There doesn't need to have legal violations or financial consequences for them to have such reactions. The key thing here is Flash and co tried to gain profits off the pocket of (possibly) their fans in a dishonest manner. In the end no one actually lost anything, but the fact that they were aware of the fraudulent scheme and still willing to go with it remains.
Speaking of twisting things and making up your own information. In other parts of the world you would get sued out of your mind if you come out with these false statements.
At no point it is specified that the streamers knew exactly the extent of this scheme. From the information provided it seems that the main culprit is the 'Suit' person + plus his backers. Streamers were just being manipulated (for the info that we have) into investing into the new coin and promote it with any means they can (obviously since all of them are small-time influencers).
Now, they could be involved in it deeper than reported, however that hasn't been confirmed. And keep in mind that there were more than 15 streamers involved so very likely that some would have a larger role than others.
There doesn't need to have legal violations or financial consequences for them to have such reactions. The key thing here is Flash and co tried to gain profits off the pocket of (possibly) their fans in a dishonest manner. In the end no one actually lost anything, but the fact that they were aware of the fraudulent scheme and still willing to go with it remains.
Speaking of twisting things and making up your own information. In other parts of the world you would get sued out of your mind if you come out with these false statements.
...
lmfao just because you are so stupid that you think Flash didn't know what he's doing doesn't make it true. Flash is not as stupid as you, he knew what he was doing.
There doesn't need to have legal violations or financial consequences for them to have such reactions. The key thing here is Flash and co tried to gain profits off the pocket of (possibly) their fans in a dishonest manner. In the end no one actually lost anything, but the fact that they were aware of the fraudulent scheme and still willing to go with it remains.
Speaking of twisting things and making up your own information. In other parts of the world you would get sued out of your mind if you come out with these false statements.
...
lmfao just because you are so stupid that you think Flash didn't know what he's doing doesn't make it true. Flash is not as stupid as you, he knew what he was doing.
and your proof of this is? he explicitly wrote in his letter that his mum spoke with suit and decided to invest 200k with flash. are you saying that his mum is also a scumbag and an accomplice? or you think flash would stoop down low enough to sell out his own mother in an effort to make him look more innocent in the eyes of his viewers?
im getting sick of these dumbasses jumping to conclusions about the streamers' involvement in this. wait till some more information comes out so we can know what the facts are instead of trying to throw every single one of them into a pit when it is quite possible they could have come out of this as victims just as much as their viewers. seems like afreeca isnt alone in having community members that are equally irrational and quick to shit on someone because "it looks bad".
On June 27 2021 13:08 Dante08 wrote: I don't get the fuss, if Flash mentioned to do your own due diligence before buying and don't invest money you can't lose I don't see what's wrong. Elon Musk raves about Dogecoin all the time, if you lose money buying it can you blame him? Can you definitely say Elon is pumping and dumping?
morals (and thus immoral acts) are viewed much differently in the East relative to the West, there's a pretty big cultural difference
Sorry to derail, but I have to say this is really not true. Basic stuff like not lying for personal gain is universal to all cultures. There isn't anywhere in the world where scamming people for money is acceptable behavior (not saying this is or isn't what the streamers were doing), only places where unacceptable behavior is more common than other places due to various socioeconomic factors. There are plenty of real differences between collectivistic and individualistic cultures, but we tend to mystify other cultures as if they're fundamentally different at the moral level, when that's not actually the case.
(fyi i'm saying this is taken more seriously in the East)
If you think about it logically, culture and values certainly have to be different in 1 race nations relative to multi race nations, simply because of the difference in impact that govs. also have. Asian nations implement much more aggressive policies (which in turn creates cultural differences), this isn't a myth. For example, look at the development that nations like Singapore (Lee Kuan Yew) have made in a short period of time. That was done through a change in culture by the government and implementation of a meritocratic system.
also these are quantifiable things.. for example, you can compare the difference in penalties for certain crimes
Actually I feel Korea is an extreme outlier regarding things like these. Just look at how they treat their celebrities and how many of them mentione the huge public pressure they face over the tiniest things. I don't see this happening in other countries.
Either way the people there need to just chill and stop being keyboard warriors.
if i had to give a koreans' perspective on why korean fans judge celebrities with such scrutiny, its basically because most koreans dont believe that most celebrities earned their fame on merit. given how vain korean people are in general, celebrities are the pinnacle of people who are appreciated for their appearance ahead of talent. and anyone who knows anything about kpop will know that the success of any up and coming celebrity is completely at the mercy of the fans and how well they are received, and that this in 99% of cases has nothing to do with the celebrity's talent. so effectively if a typical celebrity without any particular talent "makes it", theyve only made it because the public allowed that to be. so if youre going to live that life then you better take the high road and "talk the talk" (ie. live up to your image, be a model citizen etc), because if for one second people realise that youre abusing the love and attention you get from your fans who put your talentless ass on a pedestal, they will turn their backs on you just as quick. theres a few people who have had fans turn their back and talk shit about them heaps, but still stay around the scene and still be successful. those people have talent that is actually recognised even amongst the public. off the top of my head is the actor byung hun lee, whos had a few scandals but no one says shit about him constantly participating in films because they think hes a damn good actor anyway. this is just my opinion though
Why is no one investing in low fee index funds? Seems all youngsters nowadays are all-in with random cryptos and penny stocks. Not really what research says is viable long term lol.
On June 29 2021 01:39 superjoppe wrote: Why is no one investing in low fee index funds? Seems all youngsters nowadays are all-in with random cryptos and penny stocks. Not really what research says is viable long term lol.
I don't think it's a flaw in the education system. If you put all your money into something without informing yourself first, you don't lack education, you lack common sense.
On June 29 2021 01:39 superjoppe wrote: Why is no one investing in low fee index funds? Seems all youngsters nowadays are all-in with random cryptos and penny stocks. Not really what research says is viable long term lol.
Because someone at some point(very far from now, approx 10 years or so) got incredibly rich by just buying bitcoin with literally nothing and is now swimming in money.
People are not rational, they just see the best possible outcome and cling to that outcome as their lifeboat. Even if it's incredibly rare and/or opportunistic.
Pipe-dreams will always be part of the human experience. It's easy, digestible soul-food for casuals that look at life as cruise-ship ride.
I've invested all my savings into low fee index funds, thats the scientificly proven best way to gain money over time.
But all people hear about is how you should have invested in tesla, bitcoin or whatever, and they just get tempted to get really rich really fast without doing anything.
There doesn't need to have legal violations or financial consequences for them to have such reactions. The key thing here is Flash and co tried to gain profits off the pocket of (possibly) their fans in a dishonest manner. In the end no one actually lost anything, but the fact that they were aware of the fraudulent scheme and still willing to go with it remains.
Speaking of twisting things and making up your own information. In other parts of the world you would get sued out of your mind if you come out with these false statements.
...
lmfao just because you are so stupid that you think Flash didn't know what he's doing doesn't make it true. Flash is not as stupid as you, he knew what he was doing.
and your proof of this is? he explicitly wrote in his letter that his mum spoke with suit and decided to invest 200k with flash. are you saying that his mum is also a scumbag and an accomplice? or you think flash would stoop down low enough to sell out his own mother in an effort to make him look more innocent in the eyes of his viewers?
im getting sick of these dumbasses jumping to conclusions about the streamers' involvement in this. wait till some more information comes out so we can know what the facts are instead of trying to throw every single one of them into a pit when it is quite possible they could have come out of this as victims just as much as their viewers. seems like afreeca isnt alone in having community members that are equally irrational and quick to shit on someone because "it looks bad".
On June 27 2021 13:08 Dante08 wrote: I don't get the fuss, if Flash mentioned to do your own due diligence before buying and don't invest money you can't lose I don't see what's wrong. Elon Musk raves about Dogecoin all the time, if you lose money buying it can you blame him? Can you definitely say Elon is pumping and dumping?
morals (and thus immoral acts) are viewed much differently in the East relative to the West, there's a pretty big cultural difference
Sorry to derail, but I have to say this is really not true. Basic stuff like not lying for personal gain is universal to all cultures. There isn't anywhere in the world where scamming people for money is acceptable behavior (not saying this is or isn't what the streamers were doing), only places where unacceptable behavior is more common than other places due to various socioeconomic factors. There are plenty of real differences between collectivistic and individualistic cultures, but we tend to mystify other cultures as if they're fundamentally different at the moral level, when that's not actually the case.
(fyi i'm saying this is taken more seriously in the East)
If you think about it logically, culture and values certainly have to be different in 1 race nations relative to multi race nations, simply because of the difference in impact that govs. also have. Asian nations implement much more aggressive policies (which in turn creates cultural differences), this isn't a myth. For example, look at the development that nations like Singapore (Lee Kuan Yew) have made in a short period of time. That was done through a change in culture by the government and implementation of a meritocratic system.
also these are quantifiable things.. for example, you can compare the difference in penalties for certain crimes
Actually I feel Korea is an extreme outlier regarding things like these. Just look at how they treat their celebrities and how many of them mentione the huge public pressure they face over the tiniest things. I don't see this happening in other countries.
Either way the people there need to just chill and stop being keyboard warriors.
if i had to give a koreans' perspective on why korean fans judge celebrities with such scrutiny, its basically because most koreans dont believe that most celebrities earned their fame on merit. given how vain korean people are in general, celebrities are the pinnacle of people who are appreciated for their appearance ahead of talent. and anyone who knows anything about kpop will know that the success of any up and coming celebrity is completely at the mercy of the fans and how well they are received, and that this in 99% of cases has nothing to do with the celebrity's talent. so effectively if a typical celebrity without any particular talent "makes it", theyve only made it because the public allowed that to be. so if youre going to live that life then you better take the high road and "talk the talk" (ie. live up to your image, be a model citizen etc), because if for one second people realise that youre abusing the love and attention you get from your fans who put your talentless ass on a pedestal, they will turn their backs on you just as quick. theres a few people who have had fans turn their back and talk shit about them heaps, but still stay around the scene and still be successful. those people have talent that is actually recognised even amongst the public. off the top of my head is the actor byung hun lee, whos had a few scandals but no one says shit about him constantly participating in films because they think hes a damn good actor anyway. this is just my opinion though
lol i think other pros didn't know that well about the investment but flash definitely knew. Flash moved to apartment where that guy SUIT lived and hung around with sketchy people for years. He also used his "mom" excuse when his dog accidentally carried his gf's bra and claimed that it was his mom's when in fact it was his GF. It was revealed to be his GF's later. Flash is pretty well known scumbag covered by his impeccable skills. He was the the sole reason jangbi decided to retire and flash made it seem like people needed to beg him to play. Lot of koreans knew his character wasn't up to par with his skills. Don't be fooled my man. He was one of the masterminds and he def knew all about the coin and how it worked as he was into this thing for years.
On June 29 2021 01:39 superjoppe wrote: Why is no one investing in low fee index funds? Seems all youngsters nowadays are all-in with random cryptos and penny stocks. Not really what research says is viable long term lol.
Because someone at some point(very far from now, approx 10 years or so) got incredibly rich by just buying bitcoin with literally nothing and is now swimming in money.
People are not rational, they just see the best possible outcome and cling to that outcome as their lifeboat. Even if it's incredibly rare and/or opportunistic.
Pipe-dreams will always be part of the human experience. It's easy, digestible soul-food for casuals that look at life as cruise-ship ride.
This and the fact that wage is too low for cost of living and that you probably have to work for 40+ years in abusive environments. People want to get rich or just give up.
There doesn't need to have legal violations or financial consequences for them to have such reactions. The key thing here is Flash and co tried to gain profits off the pocket of (possibly) their fans in a dishonest manner. In the end no one actually lost anything, but the fact that they were aware of the fraudulent scheme and still willing to go with it remains.
Speaking of twisting things and making up your own information. In other parts of the world you would get sued out of your mind if you come out with these false statements.
...
lmfao just because you are so stupid that you think Flash didn't know what he's doing doesn't make it true. Flash is not as stupid as you, he knew what he was doing.
and your proof of this is? he explicitly wrote in his letter that his mum spoke with suit and decided to invest 200k with flash. are you saying that his mum is also a scumbag and an accomplice? or you think flash would stoop down low enough to sell out his own mother in an effort to make him look more innocent in the eyes of his viewers?
im getting sick of these dumbasses jumping to conclusions about the streamers' involvement in this. wait till some more information comes out so we can know what the facts are instead of trying to throw every single one of them into a pit when it is quite possible they could have come out of this as victims just as much as their viewers. seems like afreeca isnt alone in having community members that are equally irrational and quick to shit on someone because "it looks bad".
On June 28 2021 22:26 Dante08 wrote:
On June 28 2021 12:34 TT1 wrote:
On June 28 2021 10:50 reincremate wrote:
On June 27 2021 14:09 TT1 wrote:
On June 27 2021 13:08 Dante08 wrote: I don't get the fuss, if Flash mentioned to do your own due diligence before buying and don't invest money you can't lose I don't see what's wrong. Elon Musk raves about Dogecoin all the time, if you lose money buying it can you blame him? Can you definitely say Elon is pumping and dumping?
morals (and thus immoral acts) are viewed much differently in the East relative to the West, there's a pretty big cultural difference
Sorry to derail, but I have to say this is really not true. Basic stuff like not lying for personal gain is universal to all cultures. There isn't anywhere in the world where scamming people for money is acceptable behavior (not saying this is or isn't what the streamers were doing), only places where unacceptable behavior is more common than other places due to various socioeconomic factors. There are plenty of real differences between collectivistic and individualistic cultures, but we tend to mystify other cultures as if they're fundamentally different at the moral level, when that's not actually the case.
(fyi i'm saying this is taken more seriously in the East)
If you think about it logically, culture and values certainly have to be different in 1 race nations relative to multi race nations, simply because of the difference in impact that govs. also have. Asian nations implement much more aggressive policies (which in turn creates cultural differences), this isn't a myth. For example, look at the development that nations like Singapore (Lee Kuan Yew) have made in a short period of time. That was done through a change in culture by the government and implementation of a meritocratic system.
also these are quantifiable things.. for example, you can compare the difference in penalties for certain crimes
Actually I feel Korea is an extreme outlier regarding things like these. Just look at how they treat their celebrities and how many of them mentione the huge public pressure they face over the tiniest things. I don't see this happening in other countries.
Either way the people there need to just chill and stop being keyboard warriors.
if i had to give a koreans' perspective on why korean fans judge celebrities with such scrutiny, its basically because most koreans dont believe that most celebrities earned their fame on merit. given how vain korean people are in general, celebrities are the pinnacle of people who are appreciated for their appearance ahead of talent. and anyone who knows anything about kpop will know that the success of any up and coming celebrity is completely at the mercy of the fans and how well they are received, and that this in 99% of cases has nothing to do with the celebrity's talent. so effectively if a typical celebrity without any particular talent "makes it", theyve only made it because the public allowed that to be. so if youre going to live that life then you better take the high road and "talk the talk" (ie. live up to your image, be a model citizen etc), because if for one second people realise that youre abusing the love and attention you get from your fans who put your talentless ass on a pedestal, they will turn their backs on you just as quick. theres a few people who have had fans turn their back and talk shit about them heaps, but still stay around the scene and still be successful. those people have talent that is actually recognised even amongst the public. off the top of my head is the actor byung hun lee, whos had a few scandals but no one says shit about him constantly participating in films because they think hes a damn good actor anyway. this is just my opinion though
lol i think other pros didn't know that well about the investment but flash definitely knew. Flash moved to apartment where that guy SUIT lived and hung around with sketchy people for years. He also used his "mom" excuse when his dog accidentally carried his gf's bra and claimed that it was his mom's when in fact it was his GF. It was revealed to be his GF's later. Flash is pretty well known scumbag covered by his impeccable skills. He was the the sole reason jangbi decided to retire and flash made it seem like people needed to beg him to play. Lot of koreans knew his character wasn't up to par with his skills. Don't be fooled my man. He was one of the masterminds and he def knew all about the coin and how it worked as he was into this thing for years.
Am I missing something? How is it scum baggy to have a bra at home if you're dating someone? I've had a bra at home countless of times. And if it's not super serious yet, of course you'll say it's someone else's bra. Is this a korean scandal or something lol?
There doesn't need to have legal violations or financial consequences for them to have such reactions. The key thing here is Flash and co tried to gain profits off the pocket of (possibly) their fans in a dishonest manner. In the end no one actually lost anything, but the fact that they were aware of the fraudulent scheme and still willing to go with it remains.
Speaking of twisting things and making up your own information. In other parts of the world you would get sued out of your mind if you come out with these false statements.
...
lmfao just because you are so stupid that you think Flash didn't know what he's doing doesn't make it true. Flash is not as stupid as you, he knew what he was doing.
and your proof of this is? he explicitly wrote in his letter that his mum spoke with suit and decided to invest 200k with flash. are you saying that his mum is also a scumbag and an accomplice? or you think flash would stoop down low enough to sell out his own mother in an effort to make him look more innocent in the eyes of his viewers?
im getting sick of these dumbasses jumping to conclusions about the streamers' involvement in this. wait till some more information comes out so we can know what the facts are instead of trying to throw every single one of them into a pit when it is quite possible they could have come out of this as victims just as much as their viewers. seems like afreeca isnt alone in having community members that are equally irrational and quick to shit on someone because "it looks bad".
On June 28 2021 22:26 Dante08 wrote:
On June 28 2021 12:34 TT1 wrote:
On June 28 2021 10:50 reincremate wrote:
On June 27 2021 14:09 TT1 wrote:
On June 27 2021 13:08 Dante08 wrote: I don't get the fuss, if Flash mentioned to do your own due diligence before buying and don't invest money you can't lose I don't see what's wrong. Elon Musk raves about Dogecoin all the time, if you lose money buying it can you blame him? Can you definitely say Elon is pumping and dumping?
morals (and thus immoral acts) are viewed much differently in the East relative to the West, there's a pretty big cultural difference
Sorry to derail, but I have to say this is really not true. Basic stuff like not lying for personal gain is universal to all cultures. There isn't anywhere in the world where scamming people for money is acceptable behavior (not saying this is or isn't what the streamers were doing), only places where unacceptable behavior is more common than other places due to various socioeconomic factors. There are plenty of real differences between collectivistic and individualistic cultures, but we tend to mystify other cultures as if they're fundamentally different at the moral level, when that's not actually the case.
(fyi i'm saying this is taken more seriously in the East)
If you think about it logically, culture and values certainly have to be different in 1 race nations relative to multi race nations, simply because of the difference in impact that govs. also have. Asian nations implement much more aggressive policies (which in turn creates cultural differences), this isn't a myth. For example, look at the development that nations like Singapore (Lee Kuan Yew) have made in a short period of time. That was done through a change in culture by the government and implementation of a meritocratic system.
also these are quantifiable things.. for example, you can compare the difference in penalties for certain crimes
Actually I feel Korea is an extreme outlier regarding things like these. Just look at how they treat their celebrities and how many of them mentione the huge public pressure they face over the tiniest things. I don't see this happening in other countries.
Either way the people there need to just chill and stop being keyboard warriors.
if i had to give a koreans' perspective on why korean fans judge celebrities with such scrutiny, its basically because most koreans dont believe that most celebrities earned their fame on merit. given how vain korean people are in general, celebrities are the pinnacle of people who are appreciated for their appearance ahead of talent. and anyone who knows anything about kpop will know that the success of any up and coming celebrity is completely at the mercy of the fans and how well they are received, and that this in 99% of cases has nothing to do with the celebrity's talent. so effectively if a typical celebrity without any particular talent "makes it", theyve only made it because the public allowed that to be. so if youre going to live that life then you better take the high road and "talk the talk" (ie. live up to your image, be a model citizen etc), because if for one second people realise that youre abusing the love and attention you get from your fans who put your talentless ass on a pedestal, they will turn their backs on you just as quick. theres a few people who have had fans turn their back and talk shit about them heaps, but still stay around the scene and still be successful. those people have talent that is actually recognised even amongst the public. off the top of my head is the actor byung hun lee, whos had a few scandals but no one says shit about him constantly participating in films because they think hes a damn good actor anyway. this is just my opinion though
lol i think other pros didn't know that well about the investment but flash definitely knew. Flash moved to apartment where that guy SUIT lived and hung around with sketchy people for years. He also used his "mom" excuse when his dog accidentally carried his gf's bra and claimed that it was his mom's when in fact it was his GF. It was revealed to be his GF's later. Flash is pretty well known scumbag covered by his impeccable skills. He was the the sole reason jangbi decided to retire and flash made it seem like people needed to beg him to play. Lot of koreans knew his character wasn't up to par with his skills. Don't be fooled my man. He was one of the masterminds and he def knew all about the coin and how it worked as he was into this thing for years.
Am I missing something? How is it scum baggy to have a bra at home if you're dating someone? I've had a bra at home countless of times. And if it's not super serious yet, of course you'll say it's someone else's bra. Is this a korean scandal or something lol?
You're missing the point. He used his mom excuse to get out of the situation. Instead of owning it up and saying that he has a girlfriend he just lied and said its his mom's. He's also using his mom this time to cover up what he wants to hide lol
There doesn't need to have legal violations or financial consequences for them to have such reactions. The key thing here is Flash and co tried to gain profits off the pocket of (possibly) their fans in a dishonest manner. In the end no one actually lost anything, but the fact that they were aware of the fraudulent scheme and still willing to go with it remains.
Speaking of twisting things and making up your own information. In other parts of the world you would get sued out of your mind if you come out with these false statements.
...
lmfao just because you are so stupid that you think Flash didn't know what he's doing doesn't make it true. Flash is not as stupid as you, he knew what he was doing.
and your proof of this is? he explicitly wrote in his letter that his mum spoke with suit and decided to invest 200k with flash. are you saying that his mum is also a scumbag and an accomplice? or you think flash would stoop down low enough to sell out his own mother in an effort to make him look more innocent in the eyes of his viewers?
im getting sick of these dumbasses jumping to conclusions about the streamers' involvement in this. wait till some more information comes out so we can know what the facts are instead of trying to throw every single one of them into a pit when it is quite possible they could have come out of this as victims just as much as their viewers. seems like afreeca isnt alone in having community members that are equally irrational and quick to shit on someone because "it looks bad".
On June 28 2021 22:26 Dante08 wrote:
On June 28 2021 12:34 TT1 wrote:
On June 28 2021 10:50 reincremate wrote:
On June 27 2021 14:09 TT1 wrote:
On June 27 2021 13:08 Dante08 wrote: I don't get the fuss, if Flash mentioned to do your own due diligence before buying and don't invest money you can't lose I don't see what's wrong. Elon Musk raves about Dogecoin all the time, if you lose money buying it can you blame him? Can you definitely say Elon is pumping and dumping?
morals (and thus immoral acts) are viewed much differently in the East relative to the West, there's a pretty big cultural difference
Sorry to derail, but I have to say this is really not true. Basic stuff like not lying for personal gain is universal to all cultures. There isn't anywhere in the world where scamming people for money is acceptable behavior (not saying this is or isn't what the streamers were doing), only places where unacceptable behavior is more common than other places due to various socioeconomic factors. There are plenty of real differences between collectivistic and individualistic cultures, but we tend to mystify other cultures as if they're fundamentally different at the moral level, when that's not actually the case.
(fyi i'm saying this is taken more seriously in the East)
If you think about it logically, culture and values certainly have to be different in 1 race nations relative to multi race nations, simply because of the difference in impact that govs. also have. Asian nations implement much more aggressive policies (which in turn creates cultural differences), this isn't a myth. For example, look at the development that nations like Singapore (Lee Kuan Yew) have made in a short period of time. That was done through a change in culture by the government and implementation of a meritocratic system.
also these are quantifiable things.. for example, you can compare the difference in penalties for certain crimes
Actually I feel Korea is an extreme outlier regarding things like these. Just look at how they treat their celebrities and how many of them mentione the huge public pressure they face over the tiniest things. I don't see this happening in other countries.
Either way the people there need to just chill and stop being keyboard warriors.
if i had to give a koreans' perspective on why korean fans judge celebrities with such scrutiny, its basically because most koreans dont believe that most celebrities earned their fame on merit. given how vain korean people are in general, celebrities are the pinnacle of people who are appreciated for their appearance ahead of talent. and anyone who knows anything about kpop will know that the success of any up and coming celebrity is completely at the mercy of the fans and how well they are received, and that this in 99% of cases has nothing to do with the celebrity's talent. so effectively if a typical celebrity without any particular talent "makes it", theyve only made it because the public allowed that to be. so if youre going to live that life then you better take the high road and "talk the talk" (ie. live up to your image, be a model citizen etc), because if for one second people realise that youre abusing the love and attention you get from your fans who put your talentless ass on a pedestal, they will turn their backs on you just as quick. theres a few people who have had fans turn their back and talk shit about them heaps, but still stay around the scene and still be successful. those people have talent that is actually recognised even amongst the public. off the top of my head is the actor byung hun lee, whos had a few scandals but no one says shit about him constantly participating in films because they think hes a damn good actor anyway. this is just my opinion though
lol i think other pros didn't know that well about the investment but flash definitely knew. Flash moved to apartment where that guy SUIT lived and hung around with sketchy people for years. He also used his "mom" excuse when his dog accidentally carried his gf's bra and claimed that it was his mom's when in fact it was his GF. It was revealed to be his GF's later. Flash is pretty well known scumbag covered by his impeccable skills. He was the the sole reason jangbi decided to retire and flash made it seem like people needed to beg him to play. Lot of koreans knew his character wasn't up to par with his skills. Don't be fooled my man. He was one of the masterminds and he def knew all about the coin and how it worked as he was into this thing for years.
Am I missing something? How is it scum baggy to have a bra at home if you're dating someone? I've had a bra at home countless of times. And if it's not super serious yet, of course you'll say it's someone else's bra. Is this a korean scandal or something lol?
You're missing the point. He used his mom excuse to get out of the situation. Instead of owning it up and saying that he has a girlfriend he just lied and said its his mom's. He's also using his mom this time to cover up what he wants to hide lol
It's a pretty big leap from wanting not to give away your entire personal life as a streamer to market manipulation through your viewers though. I'm not ready to judge w/o more information, but it's a bit of a leap to me
Hilarious difference in culture between east and west maybe? How is having a new girlfriend a bad thing? Of course, presenting her to the viewers of his channel is something else.. but that's a pretty big leap from just having underwear lying around..
On June 29 2021 04:21 oxKnu wrote: Hilarious difference in culture between east and west maybe? How is having a new girlfriend a bad thing? Of course, presenting her to the viewers of his channel is something else.. but that's a pretty big leap from just having underwear lying around..
That's exactly it. It's not a bad thing. Why would he even lie about it? But he did lol. Lot of streamers say they're meeting someone.
There doesn't need to have legal violations or financial consequences for them to have such reactions. The key thing here is Flash and co tried to gain profits off the pocket of (possibly) their fans in a dishonest manner. In the end no one actually lost anything, but the fact that they were aware of the fraudulent scheme and still willing to go with it remains.
Speaking of twisting things and making up your own information. In other parts of the world you would get sued out of your mind if you come out with these false statements.
...
lmfao just because you are so stupid that you think Flash didn't know what he's doing doesn't make it true. Flash is not as stupid as you, he knew what he was doing.
and your proof of this is? he explicitly wrote in his letter that his mum spoke with suit and decided to invest 200k with flash. are you saying that his mum is also a scumbag and an accomplice? or you think flash would stoop down low enough to sell out his own mother in an effort to make him look more innocent in the eyes of his viewers?
im getting sick of these dumbasses jumping to conclusions about the streamers' involvement in this. wait till some more information comes out so we can know what the facts are instead of trying to throw every single one of them into a pit when it is quite possible they could have come out of this as victims just as much as their viewers. seems like afreeca isnt alone in having community members that are equally irrational and quick to shit on someone because "it looks bad".
On June 28 2021 22:26 Dante08 wrote:
On June 28 2021 12:34 TT1 wrote:
On June 28 2021 10:50 reincremate wrote:
On June 27 2021 14:09 TT1 wrote:
On June 27 2021 13:08 Dante08 wrote: I don't get the fuss, if Flash mentioned to do your own due diligence before buying and don't invest money you can't lose I don't see what's wrong. Elon Musk raves about Dogecoin all the time, if you lose money buying it can you blame him? Can you definitely say Elon is pumping and dumping?
morals (and thus immoral acts) are viewed much differently in the East relative to the West, there's a pretty big cultural difference
Sorry to derail, but I have to say this is really not true. Basic stuff like not lying for personal gain is universal to all cultures. There isn't anywhere in the world where scamming people for money is acceptable behavior (not saying this is or isn't what the streamers were doing), only places where unacceptable behavior is more common than other places due to various socioeconomic factors. There are plenty of real differences between collectivistic and individualistic cultures, but we tend to mystify other cultures as if they're fundamentally different at the moral level, when that's not actually the case.
(fyi i'm saying this is taken more seriously in the East)
If you think about it logically, culture and values certainly have to be different in 1 race nations relative to multi race nations, simply because of the difference in impact that govs. also have. Asian nations implement much more aggressive policies (which in turn creates cultural differences), this isn't a myth. For example, look at the development that nations like Singapore (Lee Kuan Yew) have made in a short period of time. That was done through a change in culture by the government and implementation of a meritocratic system.
also these are quantifiable things.. for example, you can compare the difference in penalties for certain crimes
Actually I feel Korea is an extreme outlier regarding things like these. Just look at how they treat their celebrities and how many of them mentione the huge public pressure they face over the tiniest things. I don't see this happening in other countries.
Either way the people there need to just chill and stop being keyboard warriors.
if i had to give a koreans' perspective on why korean fans judge celebrities with such scrutiny, its basically because most koreans dont believe that most celebrities earned their fame on merit. given how vain korean people are in general, celebrities are the pinnacle of people who are appreciated for their appearance ahead of talent. and anyone who knows anything about kpop will know that the success of any up and coming celebrity is completely at the mercy of the fans and how well they are received, and that this in 99% of cases has nothing to do with the celebrity's talent. so effectively if a typical celebrity without any particular talent "makes it", theyve only made it because the public allowed that to be. so if youre going to live that life then you better take the high road and "talk the talk" (ie. live up to your image, be a model citizen etc), because if for one second people realise that youre abusing the love and attention you get from your fans who put your talentless ass on a pedestal, they will turn their backs on you just as quick. theres a few people who have had fans turn their back and talk shit about them heaps, but still stay around the scene and still be successful. those people have talent that is actually recognised even amongst the public. off the top of my head is the actor byung hun lee, whos had a few scandals but no one says shit about him constantly participating in films because they think hes a damn good actor anyway. this is just my opinion though
lol i think other pros didn't know that well about the investment but flash definitely knew. Flash moved to apartment where that guy SUIT lived and hung around with sketchy people for years. He also used his "mom" excuse when his dog accidentally carried his gf's bra and claimed that it was his mom's when in fact it was his GF. It was revealed to be his GF's later. Flash is pretty well known scumbag covered by his impeccable skills. He was the the sole reason jangbi decided to retire and flash made it seem like people needed to beg him to play. Lot of koreans knew his character wasn't up to par with his skills. Don't be fooled my man. He was one of the masterminds and he def knew all about the coin and how it worked as he was into this thing for years.
stop spreading bullshit with the Jangbi news. Why would Jangbi invite Flash to his wedding, and talk about meeting up having dinner and drinks with Flash post Jangbi leaving Afreeca. I'm so sick of people running with bullshit misinformation they picked up from some troll in ygosu.
Same happened on this forum during the Last trolling on ygosu, people here made him out to be an asshole degenerate because you have these 1 or 2 people taking ygosu threads at face value and spreading false info here without realizing it's not like TL and more like 4chan.
Btw you can dig through youtube and find interviews Jangbi did after leaving Afreeca. He's a grown man with grown man responsibilities. Sitting in front of a cam playing games and making a highly volatile income doesn't cut it out unless you're one of the major streamers.
There doesn't need to have legal violations or financial consequences for them to have such reactions. The key thing here is Flash and co tried to gain profits off the pocket of (possibly) their fans in a dishonest manner. In the end no one actually lost anything, but the fact that they were aware of the fraudulent scheme and still willing to go with it remains.
Speaking of twisting things and making up your own information. In other parts of the world you would get sued out of your mind if you come out with these false statements.
...
lmfao just because you are so stupid that you think Flash didn't know what he's doing doesn't make it true. Flash is not as stupid as you, he knew what he was doing.
and your proof of this is? he explicitly wrote in his letter that his mum spoke with suit and decided to invest 200k with flash. are you saying that his mum is also a scumbag and an accomplice? or you think flash would stoop down low enough to sell out his own mother in an effort to make him look more innocent in the eyes of his viewers?
im getting sick of these dumbasses jumping to conclusions about the streamers' involvement in this. wait till some more information comes out so we can know what the facts are instead of trying to throw every single one of them into a pit when it is quite possible they could have come out of this as victims just as much as their viewers. seems like afreeca isnt alone in having community members that are equally irrational and quick to shit on someone because "it looks bad".
On June 28 2021 22:26 Dante08 wrote:
On June 28 2021 12:34 TT1 wrote:
On June 28 2021 10:50 reincremate wrote:
On June 27 2021 14:09 TT1 wrote:
On June 27 2021 13:08 Dante08 wrote: I don't get the fuss, if Flash mentioned to do your own due diligence before buying and don't invest money you can't lose I don't see what's wrong. Elon Musk raves about Dogecoin all the time, if you lose money buying it can you blame him? Can you definitely say Elon is pumping and dumping?
morals (and thus immoral acts) are viewed much differently in the East relative to the West, there's a pretty big cultural difference
Sorry to derail, but I have to say this is really not true. Basic stuff like not lying for personal gain is universal to all cultures. There isn't anywhere in the world where scamming people for money is acceptable behavior (not saying this is or isn't what the streamers were doing), only places where unacceptable behavior is more common than other places due to various socioeconomic factors. There are plenty of real differences between collectivistic and individualistic cultures, but we tend to mystify other cultures as if they're fundamentally different at the moral level, when that's not actually the case.
(fyi i'm saying this is taken more seriously in the East)
If you think about it logically, culture and values certainly have to be different in 1 race nations relative to multi race nations, simply because of the difference in impact that govs. also have. Asian nations implement much more aggressive policies (which in turn creates cultural differences), this isn't a myth. For example, look at the development that nations like Singapore (Lee Kuan Yew) have made in a short period of time. That was done through a change in culture by the government and implementation of a meritocratic system.
also these are quantifiable things.. for example, you can compare the difference in penalties for certain crimes
Actually I feel Korea is an extreme outlier regarding things like these. Just look at how they treat their celebrities and how many of them mentione the huge public pressure they face over the tiniest things. I don't see this happening in other countries.
Either way the people there need to just chill and stop being keyboard warriors.
if i had to give a koreans' perspective on why korean fans judge celebrities with such scrutiny, its basically because most koreans dont believe that most celebrities earned their fame on merit. given how vain korean people are in general, celebrities are the pinnacle of people who are appreciated for their appearance ahead of talent. and anyone who knows anything about kpop will know that the success of any up and coming celebrity is completely at the mercy of the fans and how well they are received, and that this in 99% of cases has nothing to do with the celebrity's talent. so effectively if a typical celebrity without any particular talent "makes it", theyve only made it because the public allowed that to be. so if youre going to live that life then you better take the high road and "talk the talk" (ie. live up to your image, be a model citizen etc), because if for one second people realise that youre abusing the love and attention you get from your fans who put your talentless ass on a pedestal, they will turn their backs on you just as quick. theres a few people who have had fans turn their back and talk shit about them heaps, but still stay around the scene and still be successful. those people have talent that is actually recognised even amongst the public. off the top of my head is the actor byung hun lee, whos had a few scandals but no one says shit about him constantly participating in films because they think hes a damn good actor anyway. this is just my opinion though
lol i think other pros didn't know that well about the investment but flash definitely knew. Flash moved to apartment where that guy SUIT lived and hung around with sketchy people for years. He also used his "mom" excuse when his dog accidentally carried his gf's bra and claimed that it was his mom's when in fact it was his GF. It was revealed to be his GF's later. Flash is pretty well known scumbag covered by his impeccable skills. He was the the sole reason jangbi decided to retire and flash made it seem like people needed to beg him to play. Lot of koreans knew his character wasn't up to par with his skills. Don't be fooled my man. He was one of the masterminds and he def knew all about the coin and how it worked as he was into this thing for years.
stop spreading bullshit with the Jangbi news. Why would Jangbi invite Flash to his wedding, and talk about meeting up having dinner and drinks with Flash post Jangbi leaving Afreeca. I'm so sick of people running with bullshit misinformation they picked up from some troll in ygosu.
Same happened on this forum during the Last trolling on ygosu, people here made him out to be an asshole degenerate because you have these 1 or 2 people taking ygosu threads at face value and spreading false info here without realizing it's not like TL and more like 4chan.
Btw you can dig through youtube and find interviews Jangbi did after leaving Afreeca. He's a grown man with grown man responsibilities. Sitting in front of a cam playing games and making a highly volatile income doesn't cut it out unless you're one of the major streamers.
???
Flash : "I'm gonna bo3 Jangbi 21 times and make him retire from afreeca pro scene"
There doesn't need to have legal violations or financial consequences for them to have such reactions. The key thing here is Flash and co tried to gain profits off the pocket of (possibly) their fans in a dishonest manner. In the end no one actually lost anything, but the fact that they were aware of the fraudulent scheme and still willing to go with it remains.
Speaking of twisting things and making up your own information. In other parts of the world you would get sued out of your mind if you come out with these false statements.
...
lmfao just because you are so stupid that you think Flash didn't know what he's doing doesn't make it true. Flash is not as stupid as you, he knew what he was doing.
and your proof of this is? he explicitly wrote in his letter that his mum spoke with suit and decided to invest 200k with flash. are you saying that his mum is also a scumbag and an accomplice? or you think flash would stoop down low enough to sell out his own mother in an effort to make him look more innocent in the eyes of his viewers?
im getting sick of these dumbasses jumping to conclusions about the streamers' involvement in this. wait till some more information comes out so we can know what the facts are instead of trying to throw every single one of them into a pit when it is quite possible they could have come out of this as victims just as much as their viewers. seems like afreeca isnt alone in having community members that are equally irrational and quick to shit on someone because "it looks bad".
On June 28 2021 22:26 Dante08 wrote:
On June 28 2021 12:34 TT1 wrote:
On June 28 2021 10:50 reincremate wrote:
On June 27 2021 14:09 TT1 wrote:
On June 27 2021 13:08 Dante08 wrote: I don't get the fuss, if Flash mentioned to do your own due diligence before buying and don't invest money you can't lose I don't see what's wrong. Elon Musk raves about Dogecoin all the time, if you lose money buying it can you blame him? Can you definitely say Elon is pumping and dumping?
morals (and thus immoral acts) are viewed much differently in the East relative to the West, there's a pretty big cultural difference
Sorry to derail, but I have to say this is really not true. Basic stuff like not lying for personal gain is universal to all cultures. There isn't anywhere in the world where scamming people for money is acceptable behavior (not saying this is or isn't what the streamers were doing), only places where unacceptable behavior is more common than other places due to various socioeconomic factors. There are plenty of real differences between collectivistic and individualistic cultures, but we tend to mystify other cultures as if they're fundamentally different at the moral level, when that's not actually the case.
(fyi i'm saying this is taken more seriously in the East)
If you think about it logically, culture and values certainly have to be different in 1 race nations relative to multi race nations, simply because of the difference in impact that govs. also have. Asian nations implement much more aggressive policies (which in turn creates cultural differences), this isn't a myth. For example, look at the development that nations like Singapore (Lee Kuan Yew) have made in a short period of time. That was done through a change in culture by the government and implementation of a meritocratic system.
also these are quantifiable things.. for example, you can compare the difference in penalties for certain crimes
Actually I feel Korea is an extreme outlier regarding things like these. Just look at how they treat their celebrities and how many of them mentione the huge public pressure they face over the tiniest things. I don't see this happening in other countries.
Either way the people there need to just chill and stop being keyboard warriors.
if i had to give a koreans' perspective on why korean fans judge celebrities with such scrutiny, its basically because most koreans dont believe that most celebrities earned their fame on merit. given how vain korean people are in general, celebrities are the pinnacle of people who are appreciated for their appearance ahead of talent. and anyone who knows anything about kpop will know that the success of any up and coming celebrity is completely at the mercy of the fans and how well they are received, and that this in 99% of cases has nothing to do with the celebrity's talent. so effectively if a typical celebrity without any particular talent "makes it", theyve only made it because the public allowed that to be. so if youre going to live that life then you better take the high road and "talk the talk" (ie. live up to your image, be a model citizen etc), because if for one second people realise that youre abusing the love and attention you get from your fans who put your talentless ass on a pedestal, they will turn their backs on you just as quick. theres a few people who have had fans turn their back and talk shit about them heaps, but still stay around the scene and still be successful. those people have talent that is actually recognised even amongst the public. off the top of my head is the actor byung hun lee, whos had a few scandals but no one says shit about him constantly participating in films because they think hes a damn good actor anyway. this is just my opinion though
lol i think other pros didn't know that well about the investment but flash definitely knew. Flash moved to apartment where that guy SUIT lived and hung around with sketchy people for years. He also used his "mom" excuse when his dog accidentally carried his gf's bra and claimed that it was his mom's when in fact it was his GF. It was revealed to be his GF's later. Flash is pretty well known scumbag covered by his impeccable skills. He was the the sole reason jangbi decided to retire and flash made it seem like people needed to beg him to play. Lot of koreans knew his character wasn't up to par with his skills. Don't be fooled my man. He was one of the masterminds and he def knew all about the coin and how it worked as he was into this thing for years.
stop spreading bullshit with the Jangbi news. Why would Jangbi invite Flash to his wedding, and talk about meeting up having dinner and drinks with Flash post Jangbi leaving Afreeca. I'm so sick of people running with bullshit misinformation they picked up from some troll in ygosu.
Same happened on this forum during the Last trolling on ygosu, people here made him out to be an asshole degenerate because you have these 1 or 2 people taking ygosu threads at face value and spreading false info here without realizing it's not like TL and more like 4chan.
Btw you can dig through youtube and find interviews Jangbi did after leaving Afreeca. He's a grown man with grown man responsibilities. Sitting in front of a cam playing games and making a highly volatile income doesn't cut it out unless you're one of the major streamers.
???
Flash : "I'm gonna bo3 Jangbi 21 times and make him retire from afreeca pro scene"
You think that's good?
Can you give a bit more context on when and how that was said? Sounds like an obvious joke to me.
There doesn't need to have legal violations or financial consequences for them to have such reactions. The key thing here is Flash and co tried to gain profits off the pocket of (possibly) their fans in a dishonest manner. In the end no one actually lost anything, but the fact that they were aware of the fraudulent scheme and still willing to go with it remains.
Speaking of twisting things and making up your own information. In other parts of the world you would get sued out of your mind if you come out with these false statements.
...
lmfao just because you are so stupid that you think Flash didn't know what he's doing doesn't make it true. Flash is not as stupid as you, he knew what he was doing.
and your proof of this is? he explicitly wrote in his letter that his mum spoke with suit and decided to invest 200k with flash. are you saying that his mum is also a scumbag and an accomplice? or you think flash would stoop down low enough to sell out his own mother in an effort to make him look more innocent in the eyes of his viewers?
im getting sick of these dumbasses jumping to conclusions about the streamers' involvement in this. wait till some more information comes out so we can know what the facts are instead of trying to throw every single one of them into a pit when it is quite possible they could have come out of this as victims just as much as their viewers. seems like afreeca isnt alone in having community members that are equally irrational and quick to shit on someone because "it looks bad".
On June 28 2021 22:26 Dante08 wrote:
On June 28 2021 12:34 TT1 wrote:
On June 28 2021 10:50 reincremate wrote:
On June 27 2021 14:09 TT1 wrote:
On June 27 2021 13:08 Dante08 wrote: I don't get the fuss, if Flash mentioned to do your own due diligence before buying and don't invest money you can't lose I don't see what's wrong. Elon Musk raves about Dogecoin all the time, if you lose money buying it can you blame him? Can you definitely say Elon is pumping and dumping?
morals (and thus immoral acts) are viewed much differently in the East relative to the West, there's a pretty big cultural difference
Sorry to derail, but I have to say this is really not true. Basic stuff like not lying for personal gain is universal to all cultures. There isn't anywhere in the world where scamming people for money is acceptable behavior (not saying this is or isn't what the streamers were doing), only places where unacceptable behavior is more common than other places due to various socioeconomic factors. There are plenty of real differences between collectivistic and individualistic cultures, but we tend to mystify other cultures as if they're fundamentally different at the moral level, when that's not actually the case.
(fyi i'm saying this is taken more seriously in the East)
If you think about it logically, culture and values certainly have to be different in 1 race nations relative to multi race nations, simply because of the difference in impact that govs. also have. Asian nations implement much more aggressive policies (which in turn creates cultural differences), this isn't a myth. For example, look at the development that nations like Singapore (Lee Kuan Yew) have made in a short period of time. That was done through a change in culture by the government and implementation of a meritocratic system.
also these are quantifiable things.. for example, you can compare the difference in penalties for certain crimes
Actually I feel Korea is an extreme outlier regarding things like these. Just look at how they treat their celebrities and how many of them mentione the huge public pressure they face over the tiniest things. I don't see this happening in other countries.
Either way the people there need to just chill and stop being keyboard warriors.
if i had to give a koreans' perspective on why korean fans judge celebrities with such scrutiny, its basically because most koreans dont believe that most celebrities earned their fame on merit. given how vain korean people are in general, celebrities are the pinnacle of people who are appreciated for their appearance ahead of talent. and anyone who knows anything about kpop will know that the success of any up and coming celebrity is completely at the mercy of the fans and how well they are received, and that this in 99% of cases has nothing to do with the celebrity's talent. so effectively if a typical celebrity without any particular talent "makes it", theyve only made it because the public allowed that to be. so if youre going to live that life then you better take the high road and "talk the talk" (ie. live up to your image, be a model citizen etc), because if for one second people realise that youre abusing the love and attention you get from your fans who put your talentless ass on a pedestal, they will turn their backs on you just as quick. theres a few people who have had fans turn their back and talk shit about them heaps, but still stay around the scene and still be successful. those people have talent that is actually recognised even amongst the public. off the top of my head is the actor byung hun lee, whos had a few scandals but no one says shit about him constantly participating in films because they think hes a damn good actor anyway. this is just my opinion though
lol i think other pros didn't know that well about the investment but flash definitely knew. Flash moved to apartment where that guy SUIT lived and hung around with sketchy people for years. He also used his "mom" excuse when his dog accidentally carried his gf's bra and claimed that it was his mom's when in fact it was his GF. It was revealed to be his GF's later. Flash is pretty well known scumbag covered by his impeccable skills. He was the the sole reason jangbi decided to retire and flash made it seem like people needed to beg him to play. Lot of koreans knew his character wasn't up to par with his skills. Don't be fooled my man. He was one of the masterminds and he def knew all about the coin and how it worked as he was into this thing for years.
stop spreading bullshit with the Jangbi news. Why would Jangbi invite Flash to his wedding, and talk about meeting up having dinner and drinks with Flash post Jangbi leaving Afreeca. I'm so sick of people running with bullshit misinformation they picked up from some troll in ygosu.
Same happened on this forum during the Last trolling on ygosu, people here made him out to be an asshole degenerate because you have these 1 or 2 people taking ygosu threads at face value and spreading false info here without realizing it's not like TL and more like 4chan.
Btw you can dig through youtube and find interviews Jangbi did after leaving Afreeca. He's a grown man with grown man responsibilities. Sitting in front of a cam playing games and making a highly volatile income doesn't cut it out unless you're one of the major streamers.
???
Flash : "I'm gonna bo3 Jangbi 21 times and make him retire from afreeca pro scene"
You think that's good?
Yes that was said. But if they are truly on bad terms why would he invite him to his wedding and meet up with him on other various occasions? Who the fuck would invite someone they hate to their wedding day?
I said plenty of fucked up shit to my friends but guess what we move on and we're still friends till this day.
I'm not trying to defend Flashes character, I have no need to. I am only merely trying to get people to stop sprinkling false narratives with what is true.
There doesn't need to have legal violations or financial consequences for them to have such reactions. The key thing here is Flash and co tried to gain profits off the pocket of (possibly) their fans in a dishonest manner. In the end no one actually lost anything, but the fact that they were aware of the fraudulent scheme and still willing to go with it remains.
Speaking of twisting things and making up your own information. In other parts of the world you would get sued out of your mind if you come out with these false statements.
...
lmfao just because you are so stupid that you think Flash didn't know what he's doing doesn't make it true. Flash is not as stupid as you, he knew what he was doing.
and your proof of this is? he explicitly wrote in his letter that his mum spoke with suit and decided to invest 200k with flash. are you saying that his mum is also a scumbag and an accomplice? or you think flash would stoop down low enough to sell out his own mother in an effort to make him look more innocent in the eyes of his viewers?
im getting sick of these dumbasses jumping to conclusions about the streamers' involvement in this. wait till some more information comes out so we can know what the facts are instead of trying to throw every single one of them into a pit when it is quite possible they could have come out of this as victims just as much as their viewers. seems like afreeca isnt alone in having community members that are equally irrational and quick to shit on someone because "it looks bad".
On June 28 2021 22:26 Dante08 wrote:
On June 28 2021 12:34 TT1 wrote:
On June 28 2021 10:50 reincremate wrote:
On June 27 2021 14:09 TT1 wrote:
On June 27 2021 13:08 Dante08 wrote: I don't get the fuss, if Flash mentioned to do your own due diligence before buying and don't invest money you can't lose I don't see what's wrong. Elon Musk raves about Dogecoin all the time, if you lose money buying it can you blame him? Can you definitely say Elon is pumping and dumping?
morals (and thus immoral acts) are viewed much differently in the East relative to the West, there's a pretty big cultural difference
Sorry to derail, but I have to say this is really not true. Basic stuff like not lying for personal gain is universal to all cultures. There isn't anywhere in the world where scamming people for money is acceptable behavior (not saying this is or isn't what the streamers were doing), only places where unacceptable behavior is more common than other places due to various socioeconomic factors. There are plenty of real differences between collectivistic and individualistic cultures, but we tend to mystify other cultures as if they're fundamentally different at the moral level, when that's not actually the case.
(fyi i'm saying this is taken more seriously in the East)
If you think about it logically, culture and values certainly have to be different in 1 race nations relative to multi race nations, simply because of the difference in impact that govs. also have. Asian nations implement much more aggressive policies (which in turn creates cultural differences), this isn't a myth. For example, look at the development that nations like Singapore (Lee Kuan Yew) have made in a short period of time. That was done through a change in culture by the government and implementation of a meritocratic system.
also these are quantifiable things.. for example, you can compare the difference in penalties for certain crimes
Actually I feel Korea is an extreme outlier regarding things like these. Just look at how they treat their celebrities and how many of them mentione the huge public pressure they face over the tiniest things. I don't see this happening in other countries.
Either way the people there need to just chill and stop being keyboard warriors.
if i had to give a koreans' perspective on why korean fans judge celebrities with such scrutiny, its basically because most koreans dont believe that most celebrities earned their fame on merit. given how vain korean people are in general, celebrities are the pinnacle of people who are appreciated for their appearance ahead of talent. and anyone who knows anything about kpop will know that the success of any up and coming celebrity is completely at the mercy of the fans and how well they are received, and that this in 99% of cases has nothing to do with the celebrity's talent. so effectively if a typical celebrity without any particular talent "makes it", theyve only made it because the public allowed that to be. so if youre going to live that life then you better take the high road and "talk the talk" (ie. live up to your image, be a model citizen etc), because if for one second people realise that youre abusing the love and attention you get from your fans who put your talentless ass on a pedestal, they will turn their backs on you just as quick. theres a few people who have had fans turn their back and talk shit about them heaps, but still stay around the scene and still be successful. those people have talent that is actually recognised even amongst the public. off the top of my head is the actor byung hun lee, whos had a few scandals but no one says shit about him constantly participating in films because they think hes a damn good actor anyway. this is just my opinion though
lol i think other pros didn't know that well about the investment but flash definitely knew. Flash moved to apartment where that guy SUIT lived and hung around with sketchy people for years. He also used his "mom" excuse when his dog accidentally carried his gf's bra and claimed that it was his mom's when in fact it was his GF. It was revealed to be his GF's later. Flash is pretty well known scumbag covered by his impeccable skills. He was the the sole reason jangbi decided to retire and flash made it seem like people needed to beg him to play. Lot of koreans knew his character wasn't up to par with his skills. Don't be fooled my man. He was one of the masterminds and he def knew all about the coin and how it worked as he was into this thing for years.
stop spreading bullshit with the Jangbi news. Why would Jangbi invite Flash to his wedding, and talk about meeting up having dinner and drinks with Flash post Jangbi leaving Afreeca. I'm so sick of people running with bullshit misinformation they picked up from some troll in ygosu.
Same happened on this forum during the Last trolling on ygosu, people here made him out to be an asshole degenerate because you have these 1 or 2 people taking ygosu threads at face value and spreading false info here without realizing it's not like TL and more like 4chan.
Btw you can dig through youtube and find interviews Jangbi did after leaving Afreeca. He's a grown man with grown man responsibilities. Sitting in front of a cam playing games and making a highly volatile income doesn't cut it out unless you're one of the major streamers.
???
Flash : "I'm gonna bo3 Jangbi 21 times and make him retire from afreeca pro scene"
You think that's good?
Yes that was said. But if they are truly on bad terms why would he invite him to his wedding and meet up with him on other various occasions? Who the fuck would invite someone they hate to their wedding day?
I said plenty of fucked up shit to my friends but guess what we move on and we're still friends till this day.
I'm not trying to defend Flashes character, I have no need to. I am only merely trying to get people to stop sprinkling false narratives with what is true.
You're right. it might be false narratives. I'm just saying flash's intention was malicious in this coin scandal and I see people defending it. Aside from that it's pretty sad his entire career seems to be tainted and ruined just because of that action he committed lol.
There doesn't need to have legal violations or financial consequences for them to have such reactions. The key thing here is Flash and co tried to gain profits off the pocket of (possibly) their fans in a dishonest manner. In the end no one actually lost anything, but the fact that they were aware of the fraudulent scheme and still willing to go with it remains.
Speaking of twisting things and making up your own information. In other parts of the world you would get sued out of your mind if you come out with these false statements.
...
lmfao just because you are so stupid that you think Flash didn't know what he's doing doesn't make it true. Flash is not as stupid as you, he knew what he was doing.
and your proof of this is? he explicitly wrote in his letter that his mum spoke with suit and decided to invest 200k with flash. are you saying that his mum is also a scumbag and an accomplice? or you think flash would stoop down low enough to sell out his own mother in an effort to make him look more innocent in the eyes of his viewers?
im getting sick of these dumbasses jumping to conclusions about the streamers' involvement in this. wait till some more information comes out so we can know what the facts are instead of trying to throw every single one of them into a pit when it is quite possible they could have come out of this as victims just as much as their viewers. seems like afreeca isnt alone in having community members that are equally irrational and quick to shit on someone because "it looks bad".
On June 28 2021 22:26 Dante08 wrote:
On June 28 2021 12:34 TT1 wrote:
On June 28 2021 10:50 reincremate wrote:
On June 27 2021 14:09 TT1 wrote: [quote]
morals (and thus immoral acts) are viewed much differently in the East relative to the West, there's a pretty big cultural difference
Sorry to derail, but I have to say this is really not true. Basic stuff like not lying for personal gain is universal to all cultures. There isn't anywhere in the world where scamming people for money is acceptable behavior (not saying this is or isn't what the streamers were doing), only places where unacceptable behavior is more common than other places due to various socioeconomic factors. There are plenty of real differences between collectivistic and individualistic cultures, but we tend to mystify other cultures as if they're fundamentally different at the moral level, when that's not actually the case.
(fyi i'm saying this is taken more seriously in the East)
If you think about it logically, culture and values certainly have to be different in 1 race nations relative to multi race nations, simply because of the difference in impact that govs. also have. Asian nations implement much more aggressive policies (which in turn creates cultural differences), this isn't a myth. For example, look at the development that nations like Singapore (Lee Kuan Yew) have made in a short period of time. That was done through a change in culture by the government and implementation of a meritocratic system.
also these are quantifiable things.. for example, you can compare the difference in penalties for certain crimes
Actually I feel Korea is an extreme outlier regarding things like these. Just look at how they treat their celebrities and how many of them mentione the huge public pressure they face over the tiniest things. I don't see this happening in other countries.
Either way the people there need to just chill and stop being keyboard warriors.
if i had to give a koreans' perspective on why korean fans judge celebrities with such scrutiny, its basically because most koreans dont believe that most celebrities earned their fame on merit. given how vain korean people are in general, celebrities are the pinnacle of people who are appreciated for their appearance ahead of talent. and anyone who knows anything about kpop will know that the success of any up and coming celebrity is completely at the mercy of the fans and how well they are received, and that this in 99% of cases has nothing to do with the celebrity's talent. so effectively if a typical celebrity without any particular talent "makes it", theyve only made it because the public allowed that to be. so if youre going to live that life then you better take the high road and "talk the talk" (ie. live up to your image, be a model citizen etc), because if for one second people realise that youre abusing the love and attention you get from your fans who put your talentless ass on a pedestal, they will turn their backs on you just as quick. theres a few people who have had fans turn their back and talk shit about them heaps, but still stay around the scene and still be successful. those people have talent that is actually recognised even amongst the public. off the top of my head is the actor byung hun lee, whos had a few scandals but no one says shit about him constantly participating in films because they think hes a damn good actor anyway. this is just my opinion though
lol i think other pros didn't know that well about the investment but flash definitely knew. Flash moved to apartment where that guy SUIT lived and hung around with sketchy people for years. He also used his "mom" excuse when his dog accidentally carried his gf's bra and claimed that it was his mom's when in fact it was his GF. It was revealed to be his GF's later. Flash is pretty well known scumbag covered by his impeccable skills. He was the the sole reason jangbi decided to retire and flash made it seem like people needed to beg him to play. Lot of koreans knew his character wasn't up to par with his skills. Don't be fooled my man. He was one of the masterminds and he def knew all about the coin and how it worked as he was into this thing for years.
stop spreading bullshit with the Jangbi news. Why would Jangbi invite Flash to his wedding, and talk about meeting up having dinner and drinks with Flash post Jangbi leaving Afreeca. I'm so sick of people running with bullshit misinformation they picked up from some troll in ygosu.
Same happened on this forum during the Last trolling on ygosu, people here made him out to be an asshole degenerate because you have these 1 or 2 people taking ygosu threads at face value and spreading false info here without realizing it's not like TL and more like 4chan.
Btw you can dig through youtube and find interviews Jangbi did after leaving Afreeca. He's a grown man with grown man responsibilities. Sitting in front of a cam playing games and making a highly volatile income doesn't cut it out unless you're one of the major streamers.
???
Flash : "I'm gonna bo3 Jangbi 21 times and make him retire from afreeca pro scene"
You think that's good?
Yes that was said. But if they are truly on bad terms why would he invite him to his wedding and meet up with him on other various occasions? Who the fuck would invite someone they hate to their wedding day?
I said plenty of fucked up shit to my friends but guess what we move on and we're still friends till this day.
I'm not trying to defend Flashes character, I have no need to. I am only merely trying to get people to stop sprinkling false narratives with what is true.
You're right. it might be false narratives. I'm just saying flash's intention was malicious in this coin scandal and I see people defending it. Aside from that it's pretty sad his entire career seems to be tainted and ruined just because of that action he committed lol.
Yea I can't wait to see how all this plays out and see if there are more bad characters hiding in the shadows.
There doesn't need to have legal violations or financial consequences for them to have such reactions. The key thing here is Flash and co tried to gain profits off the pocket of (possibly) their fans in a dishonest manner. In the end no one actually lost anything, but the fact that they were aware of the fraudulent scheme and still willing to go with it remains.
Speaking of twisting things and making up your own information. In other parts of the world you would get sued out of your mind if you come out with these false statements.
...
lmfao just because you are so stupid that you think Flash didn't know what he's doing doesn't make it true. Flash is not as stupid as you, he knew what he was doing.
and your proof of this is? he explicitly wrote in his letter that his mum spoke with suit and decided to invest 200k with flash. are you saying that his mum is also a scumbag and an accomplice? or you think flash would stoop down low enough to sell out his own mother in an effort to make him look more innocent in the eyes of his viewers?
im getting sick of these dumbasses jumping to conclusions about the streamers' involvement in this. wait till some more information comes out so we can know what the facts are instead of trying to throw every single one of them into a pit when it is quite possible they could have come out of this as victims just as much as their viewers. seems like afreeca isnt alone in having community members that are equally irrational and quick to shit on someone because "it looks bad".
On June 28 2021 22:26 Dante08 wrote:
On June 28 2021 12:34 TT1 wrote:
On June 28 2021 10:50 reincremate wrote:
On June 27 2021 14:09 TT1 wrote: [quote]
morals (and thus immoral acts) are viewed much differently in the East relative to the West, there's a pretty big cultural difference
Sorry to derail, but I have to say this is really not true. Basic stuff like not lying for personal gain is universal to all cultures. There isn't anywhere in the world where scamming people for money is acceptable behavior (not saying this is or isn't what the streamers were doing), only places where unacceptable behavior is more common than other places due to various socioeconomic factors. There are plenty of real differences between collectivistic and individualistic cultures, but we tend to mystify other cultures as if they're fundamentally different at the moral level, when that's not actually the case.
(fyi i'm saying this is taken more seriously in the East)
If you think about it logically, culture and values certainly have to be different in 1 race nations relative to multi race nations, simply because of the difference in impact that govs. also have. Asian nations implement much more aggressive policies (which in turn creates cultural differences), this isn't a myth. For example, look at the development that nations like Singapore (Lee Kuan Yew) have made in a short period of time. That was done through a change in culture by the government and implementation of a meritocratic system.
also these are quantifiable things.. for example, you can compare the difference in penalties for certain crimes
Actually I feel Korea is an extreme outlier regarding things like these. Just look at how they treat their celebrities and how many of them mentione the huge public pressure they face over the tiniest things. I don't see this happening in other countries.
Either way the people there need to just chill and stop being keyboard warriors.
if i had to give a koreans' perspective on why korean fans judge celebrities with such scrutiny, its basically because most koreans dont believe that most celebrities earned their fame on merit. given how vain korean people are in general, celebrities are the pinnacle of people who are appreciated for their appearance ahead of talent. and anyone who knows anything about kpop will know that the success of any up and coming celebrity is completely at the mercy of the fans and how well they are received, and that this in 99% of cases has nothing to do with the celebrity's talent. so effectively if a typical celebrity without any particular talent "makes it", theyve only made it because the public allowed that to be. so if youre going to live that life then you better take the high road and "talk the talk" (ie. live up to your image, be a model citizen etc), because if for one second people realise that youre abusing the love and attention you get from your fans who put your talentless ass on a pedestal, they will turn their backs on you just as quick. theres a few people who have had fans turn their back and talk shit about them heaps, but still stay around the scene and still be successful. those people have talent that is actually recognised even amongst the public. off the top of my head is the actor byung hun lee, whos had a few scandals but no one says shit about him constantly participating in films because they think hes a damn good actor anyway. this is just my opinion though
lol i think other pros didn't know that well about the investment but flash definitely knew. Flash moved to apartment where that guy SUIT lived and hung around with sketchy people for years. He also used his "mom" excuse when his dog accidentally carried his gf's bra and claimed that it was his mom's when in fact it was his GF. It was revealed to be his GF's later. Flash is pretty well known scumbag covered by his impeccable skills. He was the the sole reason jangbi decided to retire and flash made it seem like people needed to beg him to play. Lot of koreans knew his character wasn't up to par with his skills. Don't be fooled my man. He was one of the masterminds and he def knew all about the coin and how it worked as he was into this thing for years.
stop spreading bullshit with the Jangbi news. Why would Jangbi invite Flash to his wedding, and talk about meeting up having dinner and drinks with Flash post Jangbi leaving Afreeca. I'm so sick of people running with bullshit misinformation they picked up from some troll in ygosu.
Same happened on this forum during the Last trolling on ygosu, people here made him out to be an asshole degenerate because you have these 1 or 2 people taking ygosu threads at face value and spreading false info here without realizing it's not like TL and more like 4chan.
Btw you can dig through youtube and find interviews Jangbi did after leaving Afreeca. He's a grown man with grown man responsibilities. Sitting in front of a cam playing games and making a highly volatile income doesn't cut it out unless you're one of the major streamers.
???
Flash : "I'm gonna bo3 Jangbi 21 times and make him retire from afreeca pro scene"
You think that's good?
Yes that was said. But if they are truly on bad terms why would he invite him to his wedding and meet up with him on other various occasions? Who the fuck would invite someone they hate to their wedding day?
I said plenty of fucked up shit to my friends but guess what we move on and we're still friends till this day.
I'm not trying to defend Flashes character, I have no need to. I am only merely trying to get people to stop sprinkling false narratives with what is true.
You're right. it might be false narratives. I'm just saying flash's intention was malicious in this coin scandal and I see people defending it. Aside from that it's pretty sad his entire career seems to be tainted and ruined just because of that action he committed lol.
Do you know FOR SURE Flash has malicious intentions or are you passing judgement based on him shit talking Jangbi and not wanting to reveal his gf.
God dam people at least wait for the full story to surface before judging.
There doesn't need to have legal violations or financial consequences for them to have such reactions. The key thing here is Flash and co tried to gain profits off the pocket of (possibly) their fans in a dishonest manner. In the end no one actually lost anything, but the fact that they were aware of the fraudulent scheme and still willing to go with it remains.
Speaking of twisting things and making up your own information. In other parts of the world you would get sued out of your mind if you come out with these false statements.
...
lmfao just because you are so stupid that you think Flash didn't know what he's doing doesn't make it true. Flash is not as stupid as you, he knew what he was doing.
and your proof of this is? he explicitly wrote in his letter that his mum spoke with suit and decided to invest 200k with flash. are you saying that his mum is also a scumbag and an accomplice? or you think flash would stoop down low enough to sell out his own mother in an effort to make him look more innocent in the eyes of his viewers?
im getting sick of these dumbasses jumping to conclusions about the streamers' involvement in this. wait till some more information comes out so we can know what the facts are instead of trying to throw every single one of them into a pit when it is quite possible they could have come out of this as victims just as much as their viewers. seems like afreeca isnt alone in having community members that are equally irrational and quick to shit on someone because "it looks bad".
On June 28 2021 22:26 Dante08 wrote:
On June 28 2021 12:34 TT1 wrote:
On June 28 2021 10:50 reincremate wrote: [quote] Sorry to derail, but I have to say this is really not true. Basic stuff like not lying for personal gain is universal to all cultures. There isn't anywhere in the world where scamming people for money is acceptable behavior (not saying this is or isn't what the streamers were doing), only places where unacceptable behavior is more common than other places due to various socioeconomic factors. There are plenty of real differences between collectivistic and individualistic cultures, but we tend to mystify other cultures as if they're fundamentally different at the moral level, when that's not actually the case.
(fyi i'm saying this is taken more seriously in the East)
If you think about it logically, culture and values certainly have to be different in 1 race nations relative to multi race nations, simply because of the difference in impact that govs. also have. Asian nations implement much more aggressive policies (which in turn creates cultural differences), this isn't a myth. For example, look at the development that nations like Singapore (Lee Kuan Yew) have made in a short period of time. That was done through a change in culture by the government and implementation of a meritocratic system.
also these are quantifiable things.. for example, you can compare the difference in penalties for certain crimes
Actually I feel Korea is an extreme outlier regarding things like these. Just look at how they treat their celebrities and how many of them mentione the huge public pressure they face over the tiniest things. I don't see this happening in other countries.
Either way the people there need to just chill and stop being keyboard warriors.
if i had to give a koreans' perspective on why korean fans judge celebrities with such scrutiny, its basically because most koreans dont believe that most celebrities earned their fame on merit. given how vain korean people are in general, celebrities are the pinnacle of people who are appreciated for their appearance ahead of talent. and anyone who knows anything about kpop will know that the success of any up and coming celebrity is completely at the mercy of the fans and how well they are received, and that this in 99% of cases has nothing to do with the celebrity's talent. so effectively if a typical celebrity without any particular talent "makes it", theyve only made it because the public allowed that to be. so if youre going to live that life then you better take the high road and "talk the talk" (ie. live up to your image, be a model citizen etc), because if for one second people realise that youre abusing the love and attention you get from your fans who put your talentless ass on a pedestal, they will turn their backs on you just as quick. theres a few people who have had fans turn their back and talk shit about them heaps, but still stay around the scene and still be successful. those people have talent that is actually recognised even amongst the public. off the top of my head is the actor byung hun lee, whos had a few scandals but no one says shit about him constantly participating in films because they think hes a damn good actor anyway. this is just my opinion though
lol i think other pros didn't know that well about the investment but flash definitely knew. Flash moved to apartment where that guy SUIT lived and hung around with sketchy people for years. He also used his "mom" excuse when his dog accidentally carried his gf's bra and claimed that it was his mom's when in fact it was his GF. It was revealed to be his GF's later. Flash is pretty well known scumbag covered by his impeccable skills. He was the the sole reason jangbi decided to retire and flash made it seem like people needed to beg him to play. Lot of koreans knew his character wasn't up to par with his skills. Don't be fooled my man. He was one of the masterminds and he def knew all about the coin and how it worked as he was into this thing for years.
stop spreading bullshit with the Jangbi news. Why would Jangbi invite Flash to his wedding, and talk about meeting up having dinner and drinks with Flash post Jangbi leaving Afreeca. I'm so sick of people running with bullshit misinformation they picked up from some troll in ygosu.
Same happened on this forum during the Last trolling on ygosu, people here made him out to be an asshole degenerate because you have these 1 or 2 people taking ygosu threads at face value and spreading false info here without realizing it's not like TL and more like 4chan.
Btw you can dig through youtube and find interviews Jangbi did after leaving Afreeca. He's a grown man with grown man responsibilities. Sitting in front of a cam playing games and making a highly volatile income doesn't cut it out unless you're one of the major streamers.
???
Flash : "I'm gonna bo3 Jangbi 21 times and make him retire from afreeca pro scene"
You think that's good?
Yes that was said. But if they are truly on bad terms why would he invite him to his wedding and meet up with him on other various occasions? Who the fuck would invite someone they hate to their wedding day?
I said plenty of fucked up shit to my friends but guess what we move on and we're still friends till this day.
I'm not trying to defend Flashes character, I have no need to. I am only merely trying to get people to stop sprinkling false narratives with what is true.
You're right. it might be false narratives. I'm just saying flash's intention was malicious in this coin scandal and I see people defending it. Aside from that it's pretty sad his entire career seems to be tainted and ruined just because of that action he committed lol.
Do you know FOR SURE Flash has malicious intentions or are you passing judgement based on him shit talking Jangbi and not wanting to reveal his gf.
God dam people at least wait for the full story to surface before judging.
I mean you're right but we do know he hung around with sketchy people and hung around with SUIT for months. Flash was also involved in several investments and knew the pay structure. If he truly cared about his fans he probably would've not invested. RAIN also had opportunity to invest but he decided not to for the fans.
i guess flash and co could have been sort of strongarmed into it due to donation indebtedness (to suit or w/e). but yes i will never say they are entirely not complicit in this drama, they have more than enough time to think through what it actually entails (like do you think they dont see the impact it has on the viewers) theres always an option to say no to whatever they are proposing...and they didn't
Speaking of twisting things and making up your own information. In other parts of the world you would get sued out of your mind if you come out with these false statements.
...
lmfao just because you are so stupid that you think Flash didn't know what he's doing doesn't make it true. Flash is not as stupid as you, he knew what he was doing.
and your proof of this is? he explicitly wrote in his letter that his mum spoke with suit and decided to invest 200k with flash. are you saying that his mum is also a scumbag and an accomplice? or you think flash would stoop down low enough to sell out his own mother in an effort to make him look more innocent in the eyes of his viewers?
im getting sick of these dumbasses jumping to conclusions about the streamers' involvement in this. wait till some more information comes out so we can know what the facts are instead of trying to throw every single one of them into a pit when it is quite possible they could have come out of this as victims just as much as their viewers. seems like afreeca isnt alone in having community members that are equally irrational and quick to shit on someone because "it looks bad".
On June 28 2021 22:26 Dante08 wrote:
On June 28 2021 12:34 TT1 wrote: [quote]
(fyi i'm saying this is taken more seriously in the East)
If you think about it logically, culture and values certainly have to be different in 1 race nations relative to multi race nations, simply because of the difference in impact that govs. also have. Asian nations implement much more aggressive policies (which in turn creates cultural differences), this isn't a myth. For example, look at the development that nations like Singapore (Lee Kuan Yew) have made in a short period of time. That was done through a change in culture by the government and implementation of a meritocratic system.
also these are quantifiable things.. for example, you can compare the difference in penalties for certain crimes
Actually I feel Korea is an extreme outlier regarding things like these. Just look at how they treat their celebrities and how many of them mentione the huge public pressure they face over the tiniest things. I don't see this happening in other countries.
Either way the people there need to just chill and stop being keyboard warriors.
if i had to give a koreans' perspective on why korean fans judge celebrities with such scrutiny, its basically because most koreans dont believe that most celebrities earned their fame on merit. given how vain korean people are in general, celebrities are the pinnacle of people who are appreciated for their appearance ahead of talent. and anyone who knows anything about kpop will know that the success of any up and coming celebrity is completely at the mercy of the fans and how well they are received, and that this in 99% of cases has nothing to do with the celebrity's talent. so effectively if a typical celebrity without any particular talent "makes it", theyve only made it because the public allowed that to be. so if youre going to live that life then you better take the high road and "talk the talk" (ie. live up to your image, be a model citizen etc), because if for one second people realise that youre abusing the love and attention you get from your fans who put your talentless ass on a pedestal, they will turn their backs on you just as quick. theres a few people who have had fans turn their back and talk shit about them heaps, but still stay around the scene and still be successful. those people have talent that is actually recognised even amongst the public. off the top of my head is the actor byung hun lee, whos had a few scandals but no one says shit about him constantly participating in films because they think hes a damn good actor anyway. this is just my opinion though
lol i think other pros didn't know that well about the investment but flash definitely knew. Flash moved to apartment where that guy SUIT lived and hung around with sketchy people for years. He also used his "mom" excuse when his dog accidentally carried his gf's bra and claimed that it was his mom's when in fact it was his GF. It was revealed to be his GF's later. Flash is pretty well known scumbag covered by his impeccable skills. He was the the sole reason jangbi decided to retire and flash made it seem like people needed to beg him to play. Lot of koreans knew his character wasn't up to par with his skills. Don't be fooled my man. He was one of the masterminds and he def knew all about the coin and how it worked as he was into this thing for years.
stop spreading bullshit with the Jangbi news. Why would Jangbi invite Flash to his wedding, and talk about meeting up having dinner and drinks with Flash post Jangbi leaving Afreeca. I'm so sick of people running with bullshit misinformation they picked up from some troll in ygosu.
Same happened on this forum during the Last trolling on ygosu, people here made him out to be an asshole degenerate because you have these 1 or 2 people taking ygosu threads at face value and spreading false info here without realizing it's not like TL and more like 4chan.
Btw you can dig through youtube and find interviews Jangbi did after leaving Afreeca. He's a grown man with grown man responsibilities. Sitting in front of a cam playing games and making a highly volatile income doesn't cut it out unless you're one of the major streamers.
???
Flash : "I'm gonna bo3 Jangbi 21 times and make him retire from afreeca pro scene"
You think that's good?
Yes that was said. But if they are truly on bad terms why would he invite him to his wedding and meet up with him on other various occasions? Who the fuck would invite someone they hate to their wedding day?
I said plenty of fucked up shit to my friends but guess what we move on and we're still friends till this day.
I'm not trying to defend Flashes character, I have no need to. I am only merely trying to get people to stop sprinkling false narratives with what is true.
You're right. it might be false narratives. I'm just saying flash's intention was malicious in this coin scandal and I see people defending it. Aside from that it's pretty sad his entire career seems to be tainted and ruined just because of that action he committed lol.
Do you know FOR SURE Flash has malicious intentions or are you passing judgement based on him shit talking Jangbi and not wanting to reveal his gf.
God dam people at least wait for the full story to surface before judging.
I mean you're right but we do know he hung around with sketchy people and hung around with SUIT for months. Flash was also involved in several investments and knew the pay structure. If he truly cared about his fans he probably would've not invested. RAIN also had opportunity to invest but he decided not to for the fans.
enlighten me what exactly was the pay structure? you dont know. thats the issue thats still unconfirmed, whether these streamers engaged in this knowing that the coin would be nothing more than a pump and dump or if they were led to believe that suit and his backers were hopeful of this coin being a longer term investment. if its the latter then you cant blame any streamer for making an investment at all. investing in stocks (and crypto by extension) inherently requires someone to profit from anothers loss. that doesnt mean the streamers maliciously invested knowing that they could rip off their fans. also i havent been able to confirm whether flash explicitly mentioned his investment in TO coin prior to this blowing up. his announcement refers to his involvement in the crypto market in general, so it does not automatically mean he specifically promoted this coin to his viewers during his stream. if thats the case then how could you argue that there was an attempt to manipulate the market and his viewers?
On June 29 2021 16:07 Puosu wrote: Everything here seems super consistent with progamers being not very smart outside of bw
because most players grew up in the kespa farm system so they never acquired any street skills/social awareness during their teenage years.
unfortunate consequence of success, i guess.
that being said, there are still some very successful ex-progamers who have done well for themselves after retirement; oversky is a dentist and much is a civil servant, to name a couple.
On June 29 2021 16:07 Puosu wrote: Everything here seems super consistent with progamers being not very smart outside of bw
because most players grew up in the kespa farm system so they never acquired any street skills/social awareness during their teenage years.
unfortunate consequence of success, i guess.
that being said, there are still some very successful ex-progamers who have done well for themselves after retirement; oversky is a dentist and much is a civil servant, to name a couple.
Absolutely. Gotta wonder if stuff like the match fixing scandal would've been avoided had the kids lived more normal lives.
On June 29 2021 16:07 Puosu wrote: Everything here seems super consistent with progamers being not very smart outside of bw
because most players grew up in the kespa farm system so they never acquired any street skills/social awareness during their teenage years.
unfortunate consequence of success, i guess.
that being said, there are still some very successful ex-progamers who have done well for themselves after retirement; oversky is a dentist and much is a civil servant, to name a couple.
Absolutely. Gotta wonder if stuff like the match fixing scandal would've been avoided had the kids lived more normal lives.
doubt it. the equivalent of match fixing for people in society happens all the time anyway. choosing to engage in activity like that isnt an educational issue, its a character issue.
On June 29 2021 01:21 DrDevice wrote: [quote] lmfao just because you are so stupid that you think Flash didn't know what he's doing doesn't make it true. Flash is not as stupid as you, he knew what he was doing.
and your proof of this is? he explicitly wrote in his letter that his mum spoke with suit and decided to invest 200k with flash. are you saying that his mum is also a scumbag and an accomplice? or you think flash would stoop down low enough to sell out his own mother in an effort to make him look more innocent in the eyes of his viewers?
im getting sick of these dumbasses jumping to conclusions about the streamers' involvement in this. wait till some more information comes out so we can know what the facts are instead of trying to throw every single one of them into a pit when it is quite possible they could have come out of this as victims just as much as their viewers. seems like afreeca isnt alone in having community members that are equally irrational and quick to shit on someone because "it looks bad".
On June 28 2021 22:26 Dante08 wrote: [quote]
Actually I feel Korea is an extreme outlier regarding things like these. Just look at how they treat their celebrities and how many of them mentione the huge public pressure they face over the tiniest things. I don't see this happening in other countries.
Either way the people there need to just chill and stop being keyboard warriors.
if i had to give a koreans' perspective on why korean fans judge celebrities with such scrutiny, its basically because most koreans dont believe that most celebrities earned their fame on merit. given how vain korean people are in general, celebrities are the pinnacle of people who are appreciated for their appearance ahead of talent. and anyone who knows anything about kpop will know that the success of any up and coming celebrity is completely at the mercy of the fans and how well they are received, and that this in 99% of cases has nothing to do with the celebrity's talent. so effectively if a typical celebrity without any particular talent "makes it", theyve only made it because the public allowed that to be. so if youre going to live that life then you better take the high road and "talk the talk" (ie. live up to your image, be a model citizen etc), because if for one second people realise that youre abusing the love and attention you get from your fans who put your talentless ass on a pedestal, they will turn their backs on you just as quick. theres a few people who have had fans turn their back and talk shit about them heaps, but still stay around the scene and still be successful. those people have talent that is actually recognised even amongst the public. off the top of my head is the actor byung hun lee, whos had a few scandals but no one says shit about him constantly participating in films because they think hes a damn good actor anyway. this is just my opinion though
lol i think other pros didn't know that well about the investment but flash definitely knew. Flash moved to apartment where that guy SUIT lived and hung around with sketchy people for years. He also used his "mom" excuse when his dog accidentally carried his gf's bra and claimed that it was his mom's when in fact it was his GF. It was revealed to be his GF's later. Flash is pretty well known scumbag covered by his impeccable skills. He was the the sole reason jangbi decided to retire and flash made it seem like people needed to beg him to play. Lot of koreans knew his character wasn't up to par with his skills. Don't be fooled my man. He was one of the masterminds and he def knew all about the coin and how it worked as he was into this thing for years.
stop spreading bullshit with the Jangbi news. Why would Jangbi invite Flash to his wedding, and talk about meeting up having dinner and drinks with Flash post Jangbi leaving Afreeca. I'm so sick of people running with bullshit misinformation they picked up from some troll in ygosu.
Same happened on this forum during the Last trolling on ygosu, people here made him out to be an asshole degenerate because you have these 1 or 2 people taking ygosu threads at face value and spreading false info here without realizing it's not like TL and more like 4chan.
Btw you can dig through youtube and find interviews Jangbi did after leaving Afreeca. He's a grown man with grown man responsibilities. Sitting in front of a cam playing games and making a highly volatile income doesn't cut it out unless you're one of the major streamers.
???
Flash : "I'm gonna bo3 Jangbi 21 times and make him retire from afreeca pro scene"
You think that's good?
Yes that was said. But if they are truly on bad terms why would he invite him to his wedding and meet up with him on other various occasions? Who the fuck would invite someone they hate to their wedding day?
I said plenty of fucked up shit to my friends but guess what we move on and we're still friends till this day.
I'm not trying to defend Flashes character, I have no need to. I am only merely trying to get people to stop sprinkling false narratives with what is true.
You're right. it might be false narratives. I'm just saying flash's intention was malicious in this coin scandal and I see people defending it. Aside from that it's pretty sad his entire career seems to be tainted and ruined just because of that action he committed lol.
Do you know FOR SURE Flash has malicious intentions or are you passing judgement based on him shit talking Jangbi and not wanting to reveal his gf.
God dam people at least wait for the full story to surface before judging.
I mean you're right but we do know he hung around with sketchy people and hung around with SUIT for months. Flash was also involved in several investments and knew the pay structure. If he truly cared about his fans he probably would've not invested. RAIN also had opportunity to invest but he decided not to for the fans.
enlighten me what exactly was the pay structure? you dont know. thats the issue thats still unconfirmed, whether these streamers engaged in this knowing that the coin would be nothing more than a pump and dump or if they were led to believe that suit and his backers were hopeful of this coin being a longer term investment. if its the latter then you cant blame any streamer for making an investment at all. investing in stocks (and crypto by extension) inherently requires someone to profit from anothers loss. that doesnt mean the streamers maliciously invested knowing that they could rip off their fans. also i havent been able to confirm whether flash explicitly mentioned his investment in TO coin prior to this blowing up. his announcement refers to his involvement in the crypto market in general, so it does not automatically mean he specifically promoted this coin to his viewers during his stream. if thats the case then how could you argue that there was an attempt to manipulate the market and his viewers?
What you said can only be applied in the case of Bisu who only invested recently and never promoted it to anyone. His mistakes were hanging out with the wrong people then lied to the fans at first to avoid collateral damage.
But in Flash's case, it's pretty much stated in the op by jinjin that he pre-invested in the coin, signed a contract with the mastermind, then "promoted" it on his stream. I don't know why you keep denying it when that much is clear. The only ambiguous thing is the promotion part. So yeah, of course he didn't specifically call anyone to buy this coin (like his statement reads), but by mentioning it here and there in his stream it's pretty much product placement which is a kind of advertisement. Now if you buy a popular coin and mention it on stream, it's a normal thing, other streamers do it all the time. But when you invest in a coin that hasn't launched yet, and you're close with the one who made that coin (which means you probably know about his intention), then subtly advertising it on your stream becomes a fishy thing.
You want more concrete proofs than that? I doubt there will ever by any, because this is not a legal case. And the people involved will just likely stay silent until the storm has passed. Any person with a common sense of logic can deduce that much, you're just in denial.
On June 29 2021 16:07 Puosu wrote: Everything here seems super consistent with progamers being not very smart outside of bw
because most players grew up in the kespa farm system so they never acquired any street skills/social awareness during their teenage years.
unfortunate consequence of success, i guess.
that being said, there are still some very successful ex-progamers who have done well for themselves after retirement; oversky is a dentist and much is a civil servant, to name a couple.
I think back in KeSPA's days, a pro gamer currently in a relationship was news worthy. Sometimes that coincided with a slump for that pro gamer, not winning as much in StarCraft. Just to add up to lack of social interaction argument.
On June 29 2021 01:31 evilfatsh1t wrote: [quote] and your proof of this is? he explicitly wrote in his letter that his mum spoke with suit and decided to invest 200k with flash. are you saying that his mum is also a scumbag and an accomplice? or you think flash would stoop down low enough to sell out his own mother in an effort to make him look more innocent in the eyes of his viewers?
im getting sick of these dumbasses jumping to conclusions about the streamers' involvement in this. wait till some more information comes out so we can know what the facts are instead of trying to throw every single one of them into a pit when it is quite possible they could have come out of this as victims just as much as their viewers. seems like afreeca isnt alone in having community members that are equally irrational and quick to shit on someone because "it looks bad".
[quote] if i had to give a koreans' perspective on why korean fans judge celebrities with such scrutiny, its basically because most koreans dont believe that most celebrities earned their fame on merit. given how vain korean people are in general, celebrities are the pinnacle of people who are appreciated for their appearance ahead of talent. and anyone who knows anything about kpop will know that the success of any up and coming celebrity is completely at the mercy of the fans and how well they are received, and that this in 99% of cases has nothing to do with the celebrity's talent. so effectively if a typical celebrity without any particular talent "makes it", theyve only made it because the public allowed that to be. so if youre going to live that life then you better take the high road and "talk the talk" (ie. live up to your image, be a model citizen etc), because if for one second people realise that youre abusing the love and attention you get from your fans who put your talentless ass on a pedestal, they will turn their backs on you just as quick. theres a few people who have had fans turn their back and talk shit about them heaps, but still stay around the scene and still be successful. those people have talent that is actually recognised even amongst the public. off the top of my head is the actor byung hun lee, whos had a few scandals but no one says shit about him constantly participating in films because they think hes a damn good actor anyway. this is just my opinion though
lol i think other pros didn't know that well about the investment but flash definitely knew. Flash moved to apartment where that guy SUIT lived and hung around with sketchy people for years. He also used his "mom" excuse when his dog accidentally carried his gf's bra and claimed that it was his mom's when in fact it was his GF. It was revealed to be his GF's later. Flash is pretty well known scumbag covered by his impeccable skills. He was the the sole reason jangbi decided to retire and flash made it seem like people needed to beg him to play. Lot of koreans knew his character wasn't up to par with his skills. Don't be fooled my man. He was one of the masterminds and he def knew all about the coin and how it worked as he was into this thing for years.
stop spreading bullshit with the Jangbi news. Why would Jangbi invite Flash to his wedding, and talk about meeting up having dinner and drinks with Flash post Jangbi leaving Afreeca. I'm so sick of people running with bullshit misinformation they picked up from some troll in ygosu.
Same happened on this forum during the Last trolling on ygosu, people here made him out to be an asshole degenerate because you have these 1 or 2 people taking ygosu threads at face value and spreading false info here without realizing it's not like TL and more like 4chan.
Btw you can dig through youtube and find interviews Jangbi did after leaving Afreeca. He's a grown man with grown man responsibilities. Sitting in front of a cam playing games and making a highly volatile income doesn't cut it out unless you're one of the major streamers.
???
Flash : "I'm gonna bo3 Jangbi 21 times and make him retire from afreeca pro scene"
You think that's good?
Yes that was said. But if they are truly on bad terms why would he invite him to his wedding and meet up with him on other various occasions? Who the fuck would invite someone they hate to their wedding day?
I said plenty of fucked up shit to my friends but guess what we move on and we're still friends till this day.
I'm not trying to defend Flashes character, I have no need to. I am only merely trying to get people to stop sprinkling false narratives with what is true.
You're right. it might be false narratives. I'm just saying flash's intention was malicious in this coin scandal and I see people defending it. Aside from that it's pretty sad his entire career seems to be tainted and ruined just because of that action he committed lol.
Do you know FOR SURE Flash has malicious intentions or are you passing judgement based on him shit talking Jangbi and not wanting to reveal his gf.
God dam people at least wait for the full story to surface before judging.
I mean you're right but we do know he hung around with sketchy people and hung around with SUIT for months. Flash was also involved in several investments and knew the pay structure. If he truly cared about his fans he probably would've not invested. RAIN also had opportunity to invest but he decided not to for the fans.
enlighten me what exactly was the pay structure? you dont know. thats the issue thats still unconfirmed, whether these streamers engaged in this knowing that the coin would be nothing more than a pump and dump or if they were led to believe that suit and his backers were hopeful of this coin being a longer term investment. if its the latter then you cant blame any streamer for making an investment at all. investing in stocks (and crypto by extension) inherently requires someone to profit from anothers loss. that doesnt mean the streamers maliciously invested knowing that they could rip off their fans. also i havent been able to confirm whether flash explicitly mentioned his investment in TO coin prior to this blowing up. his announcement refers to his involvement in the crypto market in general, so it does not automatically mean he specifically promoted this coin to his viewers during his stream. if thats the case then how could you argue that there was an attempt to manipulate the market and his viewers?
What you said can only be applied in the case of Bisu who only invested recently and never promoted it to anyone. His mistakes were hanging out with the wrong people then lied to the fans at first to avoid collateral damage.
But in Flash's case, it's pretty much stated in the op by jinjin that he pre-invested in the coin, signed a contract with the mastermind, then "promoted" it on his stream. I don't know why you keep denying it when that much is clear. The only ambiguous thing is the promotion part. So yeah, of course he didn't specifically call anyone to buy this coin (like his statement reads), but by mentioning it here and there in his stream it's pretty much product placement which is a kind of advertisement. Now if you buy a popular coin and mention it on stream, it's a normal thing, other streamers do it all the time. But when you invest in a coin that hasn't launched yet, and you're close with the one who made that coin (which means you probably know about his intention), then subtly advertising it on your stream becomes a fishy thing.
You want more concrete proofs than that? I doubt there will ever by any, because this is not a legal case. And the people involved will just likely stay silent until the storm has passed. Any person with a common sense of logic can deduce that much, you're just in denial.
there’s this lack of advertising honesty/transparency (clear visuals, logos, verbal indications that he is sponsored or associated), and the fact that these kinds of crypto purchases can easily hurt people financially is why people are pissed.
also doesn’t help that he’s making money off literal donations; is he in any position to influence people where to make their “investments” if it’s not properly transparent that he has a paid incentive?
On June 29 2021 01:31 evilfatsh1t wrote: [quote] and your proof of this is? he explicitly wrote in his letter that his mum spoke with suit and decided to invest 200k with flash. are you saying that his mum is also a scumbag and an accomplice? or you think flash would stoop down low enough to sell out his own mother in an effort to make him look more innocent in the eyes of his viewers?
im getting sick of these dumbasses jumping to conclusions about the streamers' involvement in this. wait till some more information comes out so we can know what the facts are instead of trying to throw every single one of them into a pit when it is quite possible they could have come out of this as victims just as much as their viewers. seems like afreeca isnt alone in having community members that are equally irrational and quick to shit on someone because "it looks bad".
[quote] if i had to give a koreans' perspective on why korean fans judge celebrities with such scrutiny, its basically because most koreans dont believe that most celebrities earned their fame on merit. given how vain korean people are in general, celebrities are the pinnacle of people who are appreciated for their appearance ahead of talent. and anyone who knows anything about kpop will know that the success of any up and coming celebrity is completely at the mercy of the fans and how well they are received, and that this in 99% of cases has nothing to do with the celebrity's talent. so effectively if a typical celebrity without any particular talent "makes it", theyve only made it because the public allowed that to be. so if youre going to live that life then you better take the high road and "talk the talk" (ie. live up to your image, be a model citizen etc), because if for one second people realise that youre abusing the love and attention you get from your fans who put your talentless ass on a pedestal, they will turn their backs on you just as quick. theres a few people who have had fans turn their back and talk shit about them heaps, but still stay around the scene and still be successful. those people have talent that is actually recognised even amongst the public. off the top of my head is the actor byung hun lee, whos had a few scandals but no one says shit about him constantly participating in films because they think hes a damn good actor anyway. this is just my opinion though
lol i think other pros didn't know that well about the investment but flash definitely knew. Flash moved to apartment where that guy SUIT lived and hung around with sketchy people for years. He also used his "mom" excuse when his dog accidentally carried his gf's bra and claimed that it was his mom's when in fact it was his GF. It was revealed to be his GF's later. Flash is pretty well known scumbag covered by his impeccable skills. He was the the sole reason jangbi decided to retire and flash made it seem like people needed to beg him to play. Lot of koreans knew his character wasn't up to par with his skills. Don't be fooled my man. He was one of the masterminds and he def knew all about the coin and how it worked as he was into this thing for years.
stop spreading bullshit with the Jangbi news. Why would Jangbi invite Flash to his wedding, and talk about meeting up having dinner and drinks with Flash post Jangbi leaving Afreeca. I'm so sick of people running with bullshit misinformation they picked up from some troll in ygosu.
Same happened on this forum during the Last trolling on ygosu, people here made him out to be an asshole degenerate because you have these 1 or 2 people taking ygosu threads at face value and spreading false info here without realizing it's not like TL and more like 4chan.
Btw you can dig through youtube and find interviews Jangbi did after leaving Afreeca. He's a grown man with grown man responsibilities. Sitting in front of a cam playing games and making a highly volatile income doesn't cut it out unless you're one of the major streamers.
???
Flash : "I'm gonna bo3 Jangbi 21 times and make him retire from afreeca pro scene"
You think that's good?
Yes that was said. But if they are truly on bad terms why would he invite him to his wedding and meet up with him on other various occasions? Who the fuck would invite someone they hate to their wedding day?
I said plenty of fucked up shit to my friends but guess what we move on and we're still friends till this day.
I'm not trying to defend Flashes character, I have no need to. I am only merely trying to get people to stop sprinkling false narratives with what is true.
You're right. it might be false narratives. I'm just saying flash's intention was malicious in this coin scandal and I see people defending it. Aside from that it's pretty sad his entire career seems to be tainted and ruined just because of that action he committed lol.
Do you know FOR SURE Flash has malicious intentions or are you passing judgement based on him shit talking Jangbi and not wanting to reveal his gf.
God dam people at least wait for the full story to surface before judging.
I mean you're right but we do know he hung around with sketchy people and hung around with SUIT for months. Flash was also involved in several investments and knew the pay structure. If he truly cared about his fans he probably would've not invested. RAIN also had opportunity to invest but he decided not to for the fans.
enlighten me what exactly was the pay structure? you dont know. thats the issue thats still unconfirmed, whether these streamers engaged in this knowing that the coin would be nothing more than a pump and dump or if they were led to believe that suit and his backers were hopeful of this coin being a longer term investment. if its the latter then you cant blame any streamer for making an investment at all. investing in stocks (and crypto by extension) inherently requires someone to profit from anothers loss. that doesnt mean the streamers maliciously invested knowing that they could rip off their fans. also i havent been able to confirm whether flash explicitly mentioned his investment in TO coin prior to this blowing up. his announcement refers to his involvement in the crypto market in general, so it does not automatically mean he specifically promoted this coin to his viewers during his stream. if thats the case then how could you argue that there was an attempt to manipulate the market and his viewers?
What you said can only be applied in the case of Bisu who only invested recently and never promoted it to anyone. His mistakes were hanging out with the wrong people then lied to the fans at first to avoid collateral damage.
But in Flash's case, it's pretty much stated in the op by jinjin that he pre-invested in the coin, signed a contract with the mastermind, then "promoted" it on his stream. I don't know why you keep denying it when that much is clear. The only ambiguous thing is the promotion part. So yeah, of course he didn't specifically call anyone to buy this coin (like his statement reads), but by mentioning it here and there in his stream it's pretty much product placement which is a kind of advertisement. Now if you buy a popular coin and mention it on stream, it's a normal thing, other streamers do it all the time. But when you invest in a coin that hasn't launched yet, and you're close with the one who made that coin (which means you probably know about his intention), then subtly advertising it on your stream becomes a fishy thing.
You want more concrete proofs than that? I doubt there will ever by any, because this is not a legal case. And the people involved will just likely stay silent until the storm has passed. Any person with a common sense of logic can deduce that much, you're just in denial.
flash has been investing in crypto for a long time. if he doesnt specifically mention TO coin he could be referring to one of a number of crypto choices currently on the market. thats not even close to promoting TO coin. its existence is literally unknown to his viewers assuming he hasnt specifically mentioned it by name. you mention his relationship with suit. how much do you think his viewers knew about suit before this scandal erupted? he was literally a high profile donor with a seemingly successful business from which he sourced his funds. thats all the afreeca community knew about him. absolutely no connection to a crypto being developed behind the scenes. so then explain to me how at any time during flash's stream he was promoting TO coin if he never mentions the coin specifically and viewers cannot make the connection to suit because literally no viewer genuinely knew what he did? no streamer disclosed that they had made an investment to a coin developed by suit prior to the scandal. youre looking at information available at present and creating the story when in reality the dots couldnt even be connected by the average viewer. the main guy right now "investigating" this scandal explicitly says that it was lucky that the girl who outed Kote brought light to the issue because otherwise no one would have been able to make the connection that something suspicious is going on. you must be some god at marketing if you think a good way to promote a product is to tell no one and keep it under the radar. normally your audience is supposed to understand wth it is youre promoting
At the heart of this case is not whether the streamers promoted the coin. The coin was before it was listed, and promoting it before that is meaningless. Because viewers cannot purchase coins because they are before the coins are listed on the market. This scandal was revealed before the coin went public. No one knows if Flash and Bisu have been promoting the coin since TOCoin was listed. However, after TOcoin is listed on the exchange, if they don't promote the coin, they won't be able to get as much profit as the investment.
On June 30 2021 16:55 Timebon3s wrote: If it’s not about them promoting the coin then what is it about?
This seems a bit blown out of proportion to me. I hope this blows over fast :S
I think so too. However, a small sign "Paid advertisement" on stream might have gone a long way. It's so standard you see it on YouTube, regular TV, even TV shows show it's paid advertisement before show starts and they use branded items. I seem to remember that even Korean pros had to remove labels on water when they were drinking on stage or am I wrong? If so, it shouldn't be a foreign concept in South Korea either.
On June 29 2021 01:39 superjoppe wrote: Why is no one investing in low fee index funds? Seems all youngsters nowadays are all-in with random cryptos and penny stocks. Not really what research says is viable long term lol.
In a lot of countries, advertising gambling / advertising gambling to children / gambling is illegal or heavily restricted. Crypto is not yet considered gambling. Not surprising that the esports sphere has a ton of random cryptoscam shilling.
It seems sketchy, but from my understanding there's no hard evidence Flash or other streamers were in on some elaborate scheme to deliberately defraud their viewers. Unless that is actually proven by relevant authorities, we should stick with the old rule, "innocent until proven guilty".
On June 30 2021 16:55 Timebon3s wrote: If it’s not about them promoting the coin then what is it about?
This seems a bit blown out of proportion to me. I hope this blows over fast :S
They did promote the coin. Just because this was all found out before the coin was available for purchase for the public doesn't mean they didn't promote the coin. Unless you have a different definition of promotion than how it is commonly used.
On June 29 2021 01:39 superjoppe wrote: Why is no one investing in low fee index funds? Seems all youngsters nowadays are all-in with random cryptos and penny stocks. Not really what research says is viable long term lol.
In a lot of countries, advertising gambling / advertising gambling to children / gambling is illegal or heavily restricted. Crypto is not yet considered gambling. Not surprising that the esports sphere has a ton of random cryptoscam shilling.
A lot of things honestly. Young people see the success of bitcoin and all of the stories of well if you invested 100 dollars in x you'd have this much money now. Younger people also are less likely to be fully aware of economic downturns like in 2008 or the Asian recessions of the 90s. Nobody really teaches investments because its not profitable to anybody except the investor. Also I think in Asia a lot of stuff is more based on who you know ad personal connections which leads to these issues (I think). Also you really should not be going to your parents for investment advice around crypto because they probably don't even understand how crypto works. The main thing I don't get is if flash can invest 200 thousand US dollars and (from his statement) have it be an amount of money he can invest without great financial risk. Why he isn't just getting a trusted financial person to handle this stuff whose an expert. Hell go to a large company so if someone screws you the company can be held accountable. Financial literacy is hard but it's not super difficult to just be somewhat aware of this stuff. Especially if you have connections and enough money to hire legitimate people.
There wasn't any new development to situation for past week so I wasn't able to do a proper announcement. I apologize. And I am sorry to dissapoint you guys with such disgraceful situation like this, and I am in deep regret and reflecting on this. First of all, I will be answering what a lot of people have been asking
1. Did you intend to do insider-trading? While it is true that I had a lot of interest in coins, I did not know the intentions behind paycoins. I never imagined that this investment would lead to insider trading, and I never had any intention to. However, no matter the intent, the fact that I did not look in deep enough to realize about how much damage it would do to viewers, and was just blinded by potential profit is mine to blame. I am very sorry
2. May 28th? I have not met up with suit on 28th at all.
I was able to recieve a lot of love and attention thanks to my fans and viewers as a progamer and BJ But to do something disgraceful as this and make you guys feel betrayed is something that I regret doing everyday and am reflecting upon I am truly sorry once again. I promise I won't disappoint you guys with something like this ever again.
Lol, were these really two questions a lot of people were asking? I would be more interested whether he is also investing in other crypto currencies (in similar volume) and whether he was also advertising other crypto currencies on his stream (in equal fashion).
If the answer to both is "yes", then there's no problem. He's just somebody who is generally interested in investing in crypto currencies and talking to his fans about it.
If the answer to both is "no", then that really shines a bad light on him.
New announcement post from FlaSh that comes more clean than other announcements. The main criticism for FlaSh is that how people can believe him since there is a lie revealed with every announcement post he made.
Community figures such as KCM posted that he thinks of FlaSh as "worse than saviOr"
Announcement #4 from FlaSh
I am extremely sorry about saying that I did not propose investing to other people in my first announcement post. This may seem like an excuse, but I was afraid of the situation I was placed in, and wanted to avoid it so I was not able to make the right decision, and instead said that I never proposed investing to anyone in panic.
First of all, I will tell you guys about how Suit and other streamers were related in a timeline.
First, it was June 1st when me, Sea, and Bisu were drinking together. (This was never about investing, but just gathering as friends) But in middle of it, Suit suddenly called and asked if he could join as well. So I asked Sea and Bisu if they were okay about it, and the two said it was alright, and Suit came. During that time, I had thought that Suit was someone who was a huge contributor StarCraft scene, so he had a great impression between us, and he sat with us naturally without any wariness from us.
Second, it was June 6th, with me, JustLikeThat, GGulTengTeng drinking together in my house. That also was just gathering with friends rather than being about investing. Suit asked this time as well if it was okay to come over and I asked JustLikeThat, GGulTengTeng if it was okay, and when they said it was, Suit came over. After that, talks of investing came out, and whether I intended it or not, the instigation came from me in the end, so I believe that it is my fault. And I regret that very deeply, and am reflecting on it.
Third, is with Britney. With Britney, it is true that I proposed investing without any relation to Suit. After he got temporarily banned from streaming, I thought it would be nice to offer help for him to at least get some income during the period, And with that, he came to invest with my proposal without any knowledge of it. Now that I think of it, what I did to Britney is exactly proposing investment. But when I was writing the announcement, I didn’t fully grasp the situation and wasn’t in right state, so I wrote that announcement very poorly. I am very sorry. People are saying that I did broker work, and I wanted deny that since I felt that wasn’t the case and unfair, so it seems like I wrote it like that. (T/L note: broker work akin to matchfixing)
If I really was a broker, I would have offered other streamers and close ones about the investing but, other than the 5 people above, I did not offer the investing proposal to others. And when we did talk about investing, I told them to not do in large amounts, but limit it to the amount you can handle. This was all extremely naive, but I had thought that at the end of day, investing is really something you should do with your own decision, so I wasn’t able to make the correct decision, but when I heard that Britney was suspecting me of something, that was when I realized it. From those group of people, I’ve known some of them for over 10 years, and if I knew that this was not the right thing to do, I wouldn’t have said anything about investing to them.
And finally, I’ve only ever had experience buying coins, so I really didn’t know anything about how the investing structure worked. I hope that you guys do recognize that I did not have insider knowledge or more in-depth knowledge of this than other streamers. And with the recent conversation recording, when I said about immediate return to streaming, was not about my return to streaming but it was rather about how other streamers were under fire for this, so it was from how I was hoping they would come out maybe a day earlier from this controversy. But as I am not the best speaker, I said something that could have been interpreted differently. I am sorry.
And currently, I haven’t gotten back my invested amount. And after the current event became public and I’ve come to recognize this is wrong, I’ve told Suit everyday to withdraw the current crypto business.
I’ve started this investment first, and because of that, others approached this easier. I’ve only realized now that my investment choice can dictate others and I feel the responsibility for this. For the streamers who were harmed because of me, and the fans and viewers, I am once again very sorry for this incident.
re: the post above, I remember KCM banning all players that participated in some Chinese tournament Savior was invited in, so respects to the man for being so reactionary at his age. /s
Asian culture is not in a different stratosphere, it literally is a different atmosphere (maybe akin to Jupiter's?)
However, knowing all this, Flash is really stupid for not keeping this investment as separate as possible from his streaming persona, virtually knowing that at any little miss-step or misinterpretation it could blow in his face harder than a grenade, no matter if he did something legally wrong or not.
The last clip posted by Flash, the one where he goes in the army has 5.8 k likes and 3.9 k dislikes. I tried to translate some comments and people seem dissapointed with him, unfortunately...
The most important thing, which is still undetermined as far as I can tell, is whether or not Flash and others were aware of the nature of scheme. It's either:
1) IF they knew the coin was a pump and dump, then I don't see much of a defense and they basically played their fans for money
2) On the other hand, Suit could be the real scammer playing on naivete. Flash and Co spent lots of time with suit from the sound of it. If he was a smooth salesman and convinced these progamers that his crypto was going to be an incredible long term project and good investment, I don't fault the streamers much.
(that said, if #2 is true, it's still seems kinda obviously stupid for the steamers not have made clear their incentivization structure)
Damn, this shit really blew up and it's getting worse. However I don't get what KCM talking about, comparing him sAviOr and saying he's worse than him? WTF are they smoking? What happened is outside StarCraft lol.
On July 02 2021 06:14 prosatan wrote: The last clip posted by Flash, the one where he goes in the army has 5.8 k likes and 3.9 k dislikes. I tried to translate some comments and people seem dissapointed with him, unfortunately...
Holy shit dude, I just translated some random top comment with 1.6K likes and ppl saying that FlaSh is hiding behind his mother, not acknowledging his actions and that he's worse than Ma Jae Yoon. Damn...
Google translated comments, you can see how extremely bad situation is right now and FlaSh's reputation is ruined irretrievably. Seems like his first announcement where he said that his mother put the money REALLY pissed of people.
"I've lived a life where I didn't say anything bad to anyone in my life and never used malicious comments, but you're a special person to me, so I just say one thing. I regret the past days of crying and laughing at your game."
"I never thought that Lee Young-ho would do something like this, the shock is so great"
"It's really disgusting to say that my mother did it rather than investing in coins. Wouldn't it be better for mom to take a bath"
"A person who has been loved by fans for over 10 years. I feel betrayed that you thought of an investment that would eat your back by using it.
"If you make a mistake, apologize and accept the insults. You are an adult. If you sell your mother, you will be cursed and ridiculed."
"I'm not even a one or two year old kid. It's at the level of making excuses for blaming the mother. Youngho, how old are you this year?"
"Youngho, it's really disappointing. I really, really liked you. I watched the broadcast for a long time as a fan, and I shot a star balloon for the first time as a fan. It's not that you don't have enough money, is it really what a human would do to lose fans like this because of greed? Leave the feeling of betrayal and feel anger. Don't come back again, make atonement for the rest of your life like Mr. Ma."
"With this incident, all the achievements and careers you built on the Starcraft have been overshadowed.."
Most people that chose to comment on youtube are bottom of the pool though.I don't see how that would be any different for Koreans. On the contrary, given the temperature of this situation I would expect even more ridiculous comments.
On July 02 2021 02:34 jinjin5000 wrote: New announcement post from FlaSh that comes more clean than other announcements. The main criticism for FlaSh is that how people can believe him since there is a lie revealed with every announcement post he made.
Community figures such as KCM posted that he thinks of FlaSh as "worse than saviOr"
I am extremely sorry about saying that I did not propose investing to other people in my first announcement post. This may seem like an excuse, but I was afraid of the situation I was placed in, and wanted to avoid it so I was not able to make the right decision, and instead said that I never proposed investing to anyone in panic.
First of all, I will tell you guys about how Suit and other streamers were related in a timeline.
First, it was June 1st when me, Sea, and Bisu were drinking together. (This was never about investing, but just gathering as friends) But in middle of it, Suit suddenly called and asked if he could join as well. So I asked Sea and Bisu if they were okay about it, and the two said it was alright, and Suit came. During that time, I had thought that Suit was someone who was a huge contributor StarCraft scene, so he had a great impression between us, and he sat with us naturally without any wariness from us.
Second, it was June 6th, with me, JustLikeThat, GGulTengTeng drinking together in my house. That also was just gathering with friends rather than being about investing. Suit asked this time as well if it was okay to come over and I asked JustLikeThat, GGulTengTeng if it was okay, and when they said it was, Suit came over. After that, talks of investing came out, and whether I intended it or not, the instigation came from me in the end, so I believe that it is my fault. And I regret that very deeply, and am reflecting on it.
Third, is with Britney. With Britney, it is true that I proposed investing without any relation to Suit. After he got temporarily banned from streaming, I thought it would be nice to offer help for him to at least get some income during the period, And with that, he came to invest with my proposal without any knowledge of it. Now that I think of it, what I did to Britney is exactly proposing investment. But when I was writing the announcement, I didn’t fully grasp the situation and wasn’t in right state, so I wrote that announcement very poorly. I am very sorry. People are saying that I did broker work, and I wanted deny that since I felt that wasn’t the case and unfair, so it seems like I wrote it like that. (T/L note: broker work akin to matchfixing)
If I really was a broker, I would have offered other streamers and close ones about the investing but, other than the 5 people above, I did not offer the investing proposal to others. And when we did talk about investing, I told them to not do in large amounts, but limit it to the amount you can handle. This was all extremely naive, but I had thought that at the end of day, investing is really something you should do with your own decision, so I wasn’t able to make the correct decision, but when I heard that Britney was suspecting me of something, that was when I realized it. From those group of people, I’ve known some of them for over 10 years, and if I knew that this was not the right thing to do, I wouldn’t have said anything about investing to them.
And finally, I’ve only ever had experience buying coins, so I really didn’t know anything about how the investing structure worked. I hope that you guys do recognize that I did not have insider knowledge or more in-depth knowledge of this than other streamers. And with the recent conversation recording, when I said about immediate return to streaming, was not about my return to streaming but it was rather about how other streamers were under fire for this, so it was from how I was hoping they would come out maybe a day earlier from this controversy. But as I am not the best speaker, I said something that could have been interpreted differently. I am sorry.
And currently, I haven’t gotten back my invested amount. And after the current event became public and I’ve come to recognize this is wrong, I’ve told Suit everyday to withdraw the current crypto business.
I’ve started this investment first, and because of that, others approached this easier. I’ve only realized now that my investment choice can dictate others and I feel the responsibility for this. For the streamers who were harmed because of me, and the fans and viewers, I am once again very sorry for this incident.
Still don't get what the fuss is about, isn't Flash a victim in this as well? Presumably he didn't know about Suit's character before introducing those people to him.
These Korean netizens are jumping on the gun far too early.
On July 02 2021 02:34 jinjin5000 wrote: New announcement post from FlaSh that comes more clean than other announcements. The main criticism for FlaSh is that how people can believe him since there is a lie revealed with every announcement post he made.
Community figures such as KCM posted that he thinks of FlaSh as "worse than saviOr"
Announcement #4 from FlaSh
I am extremely sorry about saying that I did not propose investing to other people in my first announcement post. This may seem like an excuse, but I was afraid of the situation I was placed in, and wanted to avoid it so I was not able to make the right decision, and instead said that I never proposed investing to anyone in panic.
First of all, I will tell you guys about how Suit and other streamers were related in a timeline.
First, it was June 1st when me, Sea, and Bisu were drinking together. (This was never about investing, but just gathering as friends) But in middle of it, Suit suddenly called and asked if he could join as well. So I asked Sea and Bisu if they were okay about it, and the two said it was alright, and Suit came. During that time, I had thought that Suit was someone who was a huge contributor StarCraft scene, so he had a great impression between us, and he sat with us naturally without any wariness from us.
Second, it was June 6th, with me, JustLikeThat, GGulTengTeng drinking together in my house. That also was just gathering with friends rather than being about investing. Suit asked this time as well if it was okay to come over and I asked JustLikeThat, GGulTengTeng if it was okay, and when they said it was, Suit came over. After that, talks of investing came out, and whether I intended it or not, the instigation came from me in the end, so I believe that it is my fault. And I regret that very deeply, and am reflecting on it.
Third, is with Britney. With Britney, it is true that I proposed investing without any relation to Suit. After he got temporarily banned from streaming, I thought it would be nice to offer help for him to at least get some income during the period, And with that, he came to invest with my proposal without any knowledge of it. Now that I think of it, what I did to Britney is exactly proposing investment. But when I was writing the announcement, I didn’t fully grasp the situation and wasn’t in right state, so I wrote that announcement very poorly. I am very sorry. People are saying that I did broker work, and I wanted deny that since I felt that wasn’t the case and unfair, so it seems like I wrote it like that. (T/L note: broker work akin to matchfixing)
If I really was a broker, I would have offered other streamers and close ones about the investing but, other than the 5 people above, I did not offer the investing proposal to others. And when we did talk about investing, I told them to not do in large amounts, but limit it to the amount you can handle. This was all extremely naive, but I had thought that at the end of day, investing is really something you should do with your own decision, so I wasn’t able to make the correct decision, but when I heard that Britney was suspecting me of something, that was when I realized it. From those group of people, I’ve known some of them for over 10 years, and if I knew that this was not the right thing to do, I wouldn’t have said anything about investing to them.
And finally, I’ve only ever had experience buying coins, so I really didn’t know anything about how the investing structure worked. I hope that you guys do recognize that I did not have insider knowledge or more in-depth knowledge of this than other streamers. And with the recent conversation recording, when I said about immediate return to streaming, was not about my return to streaming but it was rather about how other streamers were under fire for this, so it was from how I was hoping they would come out maybe a day earlier from this controversy. But as I am not the best speaker, I said something that could have been interpreted differently. I am sorry.
And currently, I haven’t gotten back my invested amount. And after the current event became public and I’ve come to recognize this is wrong, I’ve told Suit everyday to withdraw the current crypto business.
I’ve started this investment first, and because of that, others approached this easier. I’ve only realized now that my investment choice can dictate others and I feel the responsibility for this. For the streamers who were harmed because of me, and the fans and viewers, I am once again very sorry for this incident.
Still don't get what the fuss is about, isn't Flash a victim in this as well? Presumably he didn't know about Suit's character before introducing those people to him.
These Korean netizens are jumping on the gun far too early.
its not just korean netizens. we had the exact same kind of people in this very thread also
Plot twist: There is no such thing as bad advertising. All this 'scandal' was engineering just to bring this crypto coin under even more spotlight and the guy who started this post is actually the same guy who started the coin. The coin is skyrocketing.
I can't figure this out. I guess Flash made a mistake, ok. Lets assume he did (I'm still not 100% sure, but he admitted to making a mistake so lets go with that). From the information we have, I don't see how it can be determined how much - if any - backlash or punishment he should receive. We don't have an idea what the scope of his wrongdoing is. He could end up being very guilty or hardly guilty at all. And that's assuming that Flash correctly understands his own guilt. There's also the chance that Flash considers himself guilty when he's actually innocent. So for now it seems like there are a lot of people jumping the gun, and not just by a little.
My money is on Flash having wandered into a trap, very naively so because it was set up in Trap Town, blinded by greed but not maliciously. Then he panicked and clumsily tried to fix what was already partly cracked beyond repair instead of just repenting. And now no matter the amount of actual guilt and whether you can forgive him or not (I can), the esport legend - not the achievements - is tainted indirectly.
edit: And don't take this as an encouragement to bet your money on him like this! I mean, seeing where this can lead to... I have to make it clear... by mentioning I put my money there I don't mean to... Damn, what a slippery slope...
From what I understand, this situation is kind of like the CSGO gambling scandal with Syndicate and Tmartn. Streamers promoting something without adequately disclosing their involvement with the project. It’s obviously sketchy and Flash (et al) should have known better, but I don’t think it’s comparable to match fixing at all. It does not impact the integrity of competition.
It’s a question of intent as well. If he made a naive mistake then that is forgivable. Very poor judgement, but forgivable. If he knowingly schemed with others to participate in a crypto pump and dump at the expense of his fans then (imo) it isn’t forgivable. His early statements really don’t help his case... shifting blame onto your mum? Not a good look. Does he not have a publicist or something?
On July 03 2021 03:10 Immaterial wrote: It’s obviously sketchy and Flash (et al) should have known better, but I don’t think it’s comparable to match fixing at all. It does not impact the integrity of competition.
I agree with this sentiment. I don't think (and hope) Brood War will be as affected by this as much as the match fixing scandal. It's not directly affecting the quality of BW competition, although it's a good lesson to people not to blindly treat and trust professional players as their idols, and to remember that they're also just humans who happen to be very good at their job.
Ex. Just because Kyrie Irving says the world is flat, or Lebron says some random thing about politics, doesn't make it true. They're just people who are really good at making a team throw a ball into a hoop.
On July 03 2021 03:10 Immaterial wrote: From what I understand, this situation is kind of like the CSGO gambling scandal with Syndicate and Tmartn. Streamers promoting something without adequately disclosing their involvement with the project. It’s obviously sketchy and Flash (et al) should have known better, but I don’t think it’s comparable to match fixing at all. It does not impact the integrity of competition.
It’s a question of intent as well. If he made a naive mistake then that is forgivable. Very poor judgement, but forgivable. If he knowingly schemed with others to participate in a crypto pump and dump at the expense of his fans then (imo) it isn’t forgivable. His early statements really don’t help his case... shifting blame onto your mum? Not a good look. Does he not have a publicist or something?
I believe KCM and whoever else said it was worse did it for several reasons. The biggest reason being that Flash, in a way, has become synonymous with SC and Terran. He is considered GOAT by most people and has been in the scene since his 2007 debut. Basically, he's lived and breathed BW, and most of this after the matchfixing scandal took place which was a big reason for the professional scene's demise among other things. But you may ask, why is this even a comparison? Now, it is true that this isn't affecting the integrity of the competition which would be pretty bad, but this might actually be worse on a different scale, because not only are you undermining the fans' trust, there's also a monetary component at play here.
If this was actually a pump and dump scheme and Flash and co ended up advertising it, even just name dropping the coin during the stream, the consequences would be much worse so it's a good thing that the coin wasn't on the market yet and this whole thing came out when it did. Having said that, personally, I have no clue what Flash was thinking when he was making this investment. Maybe he was lured into it by Suit who is apparently very convincing, or maybe he gave it some thought and decided that it's best to jump in especially with the money guaranteed. We just don't know so we can't really evaluate maliciousness, but is your money being guaranteed common in investments? More so when it comes to crytocurrency? I don't have much knowledge on the subject so maybe someone with more information can share.
All in all, I think the damage is done and his image is tainted in the eyes of some fans. I'm not sure of the scope of this so maybe jinjin or another KR speaker can give us an idea of just how bad the damage is. It was interesting to read some of his previous lies though and yes, people really need to make their own decisions regardless of whether a streamer name drops something during a streaming session.
On July 03 2021 03:10 Immaterial wrote: From what I understand, this situation is kind of like the CSGO gambling scandal with Syndicate and Tmartn. Streamers promoting something without adequately disclosing their involvement with the project. It’s obviously sketchy and Flash (et al) should have known better, but I don’t think it’s comparable to match fixing at all. It does not impact the integrity of competition.
It’s a question of intent as well. If he made a naive mistake then that is forgivable. Very poor judgement, but forgivable. If he knowingly schemed with others to participate in a crypto pump and dump at the expense of his fans then (imo) it isn’t forgivable. His early statements really don’t help his case... shifting blame onto your mum? Not a good look. Does he not have a publicist or something?
I believe KCM and whoever else said it was worse did it for several reasons. The biggest reason being that Flash, in a way, has become synonymous with SC and Terran. He is considered GOAT by most people and has been in the scene since his 2007 debut. Basically, he's lived and breathed BW, and most of this after the matchfixing scandal took place which was a big reason for the professional scene's demise among other things. But you may ask, why is this even a comparison? Now, it is true that this isn't affecting the integrity of the competition which would be pretty bad, but this might actually be worse on a different scale, because not only are you undermining the fans' trust, there's also a monetary component at play here.
If this was actually a pump and dump scheme and Flash and co ended up advertising it, even just name dropping the coin during the stream, the consequences would be much worse so it's a good thing that the coin wasn't on the market yet and this whole thing came out when it did. Having said that, personally, I have no clue what Flash was thinking when he was making this investment. Maybe he was lured into it by Suit who is apparently very convincing, or maybe he gave it some thought and decided that it's best to jump in especially with the money guaranteed. We just don't know so we can't really evaluate maliciousness, but is your money being guaranteed common in investments? More so when it comes to crytocurrency? I don't have much knowledge on the subject so maybe someone with more information can share.
All in all, I think the damage is done and his image is tainted in the eyes of some fans. I'm not sure of the scope of this so maybe jinjin or another KR speaker can give us an idea of just how bad the damage is. It was interesting to read some of his previous lies though and yes, people really need to make their own decisions regardless of whether a streamer name drops something during a streaming session.
damage is pretty bad that flash/bisu may never be able to stream. Britney actually revealed that flash was the one who persuaded him to invest, causing even more backlash from the fans. This basically confirmed that he was the main player and was acting like a "broker." In the past, we also see a video of flash advertising himself as a "guru" of coin and saying he earned more $ than his entire career as a progamer. So he most likely knew about the structure of how all of this worked and STILL decided to invest and even pursuaded some people like britney to invest. It's pretty set in stone. Flash can't ever return and he's unfortunately on the level worse than savior's. (pretty ridiculous I know but thats what seems to be occurring atm)
On July 03 2021 03:10 Immaterial wrote: It’s a question of intent as well. If he made a naive mistake then that is forgivable.
savior was NaIvE too, he was young and didn't know what he was doing! forgive him guise...
These foreigners also making their own judments and critizing netizen's reaction lmao. I do agree with you guys saying korean netizens overreact but flash lied 3x already and was already revealed to persudate other people to invest. At this point, its over. Its even worse that he has enough $$ to retire comfortably and still did this.
for foreigners, who dont speak korean, it feels like we missed 2 thirds of the information and now we only get to see the last third.
"In the past, we also see a video of flash advertising himself as a "guru" of coin and saying he earned more $ than his entire career as a progamer."
would you mind sharing the video? i guess coin = crypto in general, so it would be interesting to figure out what kind of crypto he was talking about. Also, flash himself mentioned he was into crypto for several years, but do we know when exactly he started?
Could we maybe also get the video of Britney + Sea talking about this? (preferably translated by some saint :D)
On July 03 2021 03:10 Immaterial wrote: From what I understand, this situation is kind of like the CSGO gambling scandal with Syndicate and Tmartn. Streamers promoting something without adequately disclosing their involvement with the project. It’s obviously sketchy and Flash (et al) should have known better, but I don’t think it’s comparable to match fixing at all. It does not impact the integrity of competition.
It’s a question of intent as well. If he made a naive mistake then that is forgivable. Very poor judgement, but forgivable. If he knowingly schemed with others to participate in a crypto pump and dump at the expense of his fans then (imo) it isn’t forgivable. His early statements really don’t help his case... shifting blame onto your mum? Not a good look. Does he not have a publicist or something?
I believe KCM and whoever else said it was worse did it for several reasons. The biggest reason being that Flash, in a way, has become synonymous with SC and Terran. He is considered GOAT by most people and has been in the scene since his 2007 debut. Basically, he's lived and breathed BW, and most of this after the matchfixing scandal took place which was a big reason for the professional scene's demise among other things. But you may ask, why is this even a comparison? Now, it is true that this isn't affecting the integrity of the competition which would be pretty bad, but this might actually be worse on a different scale, because not only are you undermining the fans' trust, there's also a monetary component at play here.
If this was actually a pump and dump scheme and Flash and co ended up advertising it, even just name dropping the coin during the stream, the consequences would be much worse so it's a good thing that the coin wasn't on the market yet and this whole thing came out when it did. Having said that, personally, I have no clue what Flash was thinking when he was making this investment. Maybe he was lured into it by Suit who is apparently very convincing, or maybe he gave it some thought and decided that it's best to jump in especially with the money guaranteed. We just don't know so we can't really evaluate maliciousness, but is your money being guaranteed common in investments? More so when it comes to crytocurrency? I don't have much knowledge on the subject so maybe someone with more information can share.
All in all, I think the damage is done and his image is tainted in the eyes of some fans. I'm not sure of the scope of this so maybe jinjin or another KR speaker can give us an idea of just how bad the damage is. It was interesting to read some of his previous lies though and yes, people really need to make their own decisions regardless of whether a streamer name drops something during a streaming session.
damage is pretty bad that flash/bisu may never be able to stream. Britney actually revealed that flash was the one who persuaded him to invest, causing even more backlash from the fans. This basically confirmed that he was the main player and was acting like a "broker." In the past, we also see a video of flash advertising himself as a "guru" of coin and saying he earned more $ than his entire career as a progamer. So he most likely knew about the structure of how all of this worked and STILL decided to invest and even pursuaded some people like britney to invest. It's pretty set in stone. Flash can't ever return and he's unfortunately on the level worse than savior's. (pretty ridiculous I know but thats what seems to be occurring atm)
Wow you really are being hyperbolic huh. Isn't Flash a victim in this "scandal" as well? Presumably he didn't know about this scandal, yes he did introduce other people to invest but he would have told them not to invest any big amounts. He has mentioned that a few times and I believe it to be true.
I guess he didn't explain things very clearly at the start which obviously didn't help his cause, but I'm not sure why everybody is damning him to hell based on multiple assumptions? It's such a weird situation really.
are people bitter at Flash's general success? its pretty obvious that his Mom got swindled by some scumbag, who also happens to appear good to him (generous donator to SC streamers/tournaments in his words), and that he isn't much of an expert, so he got sucked into it. i dont think it makes him a terrible person at all. i do think it makes him more stupid than we think (we think hes smart because hes good at a video game, but i can see his general stupidity in the real world from things like this)
On July 03 2021 03:10 Immaterial wrote: From what I understand, this situation is kind of like the CSGO gambling scandal with Syndicate and Tmartn. Streamers promoting something without adequately disclosing their involvement with the project. It’s obviously sketchy and Flash (et al) should have known better, but I don’t think it’s comparable to match fixing at all. It does not impact the integrity of competition.
It’s a question of intent as well. If he made a naive mistake then that is forgivable. Very poor judgement, but forgivable. If he knowingly schemed with others to participate in a crypto pump and dump at the expense of his fans then (imo) it isn’t forgivable. His early statements really don’t help his case... shifting blame onto your mum? Not a good look. Does he not have a publicist or something?
I believe KCM and whoever else said it was worse did it for several reasons. The biggest reason being that Flash, in a way, has become synonymous with SC and Terran. He is considered GOAT by most people and has been in the scene since his 2007 debut. Basically, he's lived and breathed BW, and most of this after the matchfixing scandal took place which was a big reason for the professional scene's demise among other things. But you may ask, why is this even a comparison? Now, it is true that this isn't affecting the integrity of the competition which would be pretty bad, but this might actually be worse on a different scale, because not only are you undermining the fans' trust, there's also a monetary component at play here.
If this was actually a pump and dump scheme and Flash and co ended up advertising it, even just name dropping the coin during the stream, the consequences would be much worse so it's a good thing that the coin wasn't on the market yet and this whole thing came out when it did. Having said that, personally, I have no clue what Flash was thinking when he was making this investment. Maybe he was lured into it by Suit who is apparently very convincing, or maybe he gave it some thought and decided that it's best to jump in especially with the money guaranteed. We just don't know so we can't really evaluate maliciousness, but is your money being guaranteed common in investments? More so when it comes to crytocurrency? I don't have much knowledge on the subject so maybe someone with more information can share.
All in all, I think the damage is done and his image is tainted in the eyes of some fans. I'm not sure of the scope of this so maybe jinjin or another KR speaker can give us an idea of just how bad the damage is. It was interesting to read some of his previous lies though and yes, people really need to make their own decisions regardless of whether a streamer name drops something during a streaming session.
damage is pretty bad that flash/bisu may never be able to stream. Britney actually revealed that flash was the one who persuaded him to invest, causing even more backlash from the fans. This basically confirmed that he was the main player and was acting like a "broker." In the past, we also see a video of flash advertising himself as a "guru" of coin and saying he earned more $ than his entire career as a progamer. So he most likely knew about the structure of how all of this worked and STILL decided to invest and even pursuaded some people like britney to invest. It's pretty set in stone. Flash can't ever return and he's unfortunately on the level worse than savior's. (pretty ridiculous I know but thats what seems to be occurring atm)
Wow you really are being hyperbolic huh. Isn't Flash a victim in this "scandal" as well? Presumably he didn't know about this scandal, yes he did introduce other people to invest but he would have told them not to invest any big amounts. He has mentioned that a few times and I believe it to be true.
I guess he didn't explain things very clearly at the start which obviously didn't help his cause, but I'm not sure why everybody is damning him to hell based on multiple assumptions? It's such a weird situation really.
Again, foreigners are missing the entire story. You guys are basing everything off from his post which is full of lies. Here are the facts.
What flash did is not on the level of savior. He was considered "god" and his image was almost perfect so its no wonder he's getting severe backlash. Korean netizens are pretty hardcore lol. Also, you guys are wrong as well to just assume he's innocent. He wasn't..
On July 03 2021 15:29 nath wrote: are people bitter at Flash's general success? its pretty obvious that his Mom got swindled by some scumbag, who also happens to appear good to him (generous donator to SC streamers/tournaments in his words), and that he isn't much of an expert, so he got sucked into it. i dont think it makes him a terrible person at all. i do think it makes him more stupid than we think (we think hes smart because hes good at a video game, but i can see his general stupidity in the real world from things like this)
I think that's pretty much what happened. Initially, people were just shocked he did that but he constantly backtracked and lied which worsened the situation. The final blow was when he was revealed to be actually the main player and the fact that he always said he is "expert" in investing in coins. His intention was pretty bad and that's it.
On July 03 2021 16:31 Shinokuki wrote: Again, foreigners are missing the entire story. You guys are basing everything off from his post which is full of lies. Here are the facts.
What flash did is not on the level of savior. He was considered "god" and his image was almost perfect so its no wonder he's getting severe backlash. Korean netizens are pretty hardcore lol. Also, you guys are wrong as well to just assume he's innocent. He wasn't..
Uhm... look, I don't wanna jump to Flash's defense (I'm not on his side, or on any side), but what you wrote there aren't facts. If you want to tell us the facts, please feel very welcome to do so. I'd be quite appreciative if someone could explain the situation to us exactly as it is without any speculation.
Most of us aren't assuming Flash's innocence. Don't mistake withholding judgement for lenience. We just don't know for sure what has really happened. We don't know what is true, what's rumored, what's exaggerated, we really don't know. And for that reason we don't draw definitive conclusions yet.
if anyone is looking for a background to this then i wrote up a post on page 2. since then there hasnt been much development in this scandal other than a few more announcements from a few streamers. do those announcements change much? i dont think so
what we can say with certainty is flash was an idiot. its safe to assume that he fell into the trap most amateur investors fall into which is thinking that theyre knowledgable in finance because they had some success. so he decides to make another investment at the suggestion of a man he trusted, and he probably wasnt lying about his mother's involvement (probably wanted a third opinion on the investment). the bigger takeaway is suit's ability to earn the trust of the streaming community and deceive them. what flash did wrong was lie about his total involvement in this matter and recommend investment into this particular coin to his peers. i dont believe he would have said that hes an expert because hes not stupid enough to say that, but given his successful track record his word probably carried some weight amongst his friends who comparatively had less experience than him. that doesnt mean he had malicious intent when he made the investment however. he was just naive or ignorant and got unlucky that this investment wasnt just a case of him making a poor financial decision and losing money; there was an actual scammer involved and the case blew up. it doesnt make sense that flash would knowingly make a decision that could turn his main source of income against him and also recommend the same thing to his peers who are probably even more reliant on their viewers than he is.
tl;dr: flash was naive and dumb but the majority of the streamers most likely made the investment based on its merits and their criticisms from the korean viewers is undeserved. comparisons to savior in particular are ridiculous.
at the moment any further "investigations" (there arent any formal investigations by any authority as of yet), is pretty much all focused on suit. theres some new allegations being made that the streamers' investments werent made with their own money, rather it was the streamers returning the balloon donations made to them by suit. so if a streamer was interested in investing but didnt want to burden the risk suit offered to give them money in the form of balloon donations and that money minus afreeca's commission would be returned to suit as the investment sum.
being a pump and dump scammer and encouraging people (huge audience) to participate (lose all their invested money) is worse than a match fixer which takes some money under the table from a broker to throw a game but what savior did was worse than being a matchfixer because he also acted as the broker between betters and gamers.
On July 03 2021 18:12 KameZerg wrote: being a pump and dump scammer and encouraging people (huge audience) to participate (lose all their invested money) is worse than a match fixer which takes some money under the table from a broker to throw a game but what savior did was worse than being a matchfixer because he also acted as the broker between betters and gamers.
youve been spewing the same shit since page 1. amazing how after 7 pages of new information you keep saying the same thing. ladies and gentlemen, this is exhibit A of the tl equivalent to the korean netizens on an unreasonable witchhunt.
On July 03 2021 18:12 KameZerg wrote: being a pump and dump scammer and encouraging people (huge audience) to participate (lose all their invested money) is worse than a match fixer which takes some money under the table from a broker to throw a game but what savior did was worse than being a matchfixer because he also acted as the broker between betters and gamers.
youve been spewing the same shit since page 1. amazing how after 7 pages of new information you keep saying the same thing. ladies and gentlemen, this is exhibit A of the tl equivalent to the korean netizens on an unreasonable witchhunt.
You mean new information like his first announcements being lies?
Anyways, Flash is 100% guilty of marketing a shady cryptocurrency to his friends and fans while hiding his conflict of interest. Flash is 100% guilty of lying about the situations in his first messages. Whether malicious intend was involved or not is unclear and we will probably never find out.
Flash has been in Brood War since he was a young kid. Investing and crypto currency is not a straight forward concept and while he should definitely be criticized for lying and backpedaling, it is hard for me not to have some sympathy for someone who probably doesn't really have the life skills to do anything but BW. I especially get this feeling from Flash, however this is definitely just conjecture on my part. I can give the benefit of the doubt that the intent wasn't malicious, especially because of incidents like the matchfixing scandal. The idea that someone like Flash would think that he could risk such a scandal seems crazy to me, it seems more likely to me that he didn't realize that it was wrong until the facts came out and then he panicked and tried to mitigate the damage.
I don't know if this matters to Korean fans, Flash's reactions might be something that some can sympathize with, but he definitely made mistakes and at best lied about the situation when he found out it was wrong. I just don't think this is comparable to Savior because the moral boundaries crossed by Savior are obvious and inherent to the lifestyle they were in. However, I do have sympathy for any of these kids that came up in that team-house environment, even for Savior to some degree. These are people who were abused and overworked in their formative years. I don't think that gets considered enough when we judge these players on a personal level. I don't blame anyone for not wanting to support Flash after this, but I get sad when I see vitriol or messages with a hateful tone, especially in this case where there is reasonable ambiguity as to whether Flash was intentionally malicious or incredibly naïve.
I feel like non-korean speakers are not understanding everything about this bitcoin scandal.(neither do i, but i think i know more information)
People in korea turned their back and hate flash, bisu, other streamers. Flash's first 2 announcements were false information, couple people released recorded voice of their conversation. Fans were shocked when they even try to come back to stream again after things are settled.(you guys should know they make tons of money on stream) flash was also doing some advertisement about the investment in the past and it has connection to the bitcoin. Youtuber 뻑가 summarized on his recent video and some people summarized on ygosu community so you guys can look it up
KCM also said on his youtube live chat "they stabbed their fan's back + worse than savior"
On July 03 2021 21:45 Bijan wrote: Flash has been in Brood War since he was a young kid. Investing and crypto currency is not a straight forward concept and while he should definitely be criticized for lying and backpedaling, it is hard for me not to have some sympathy for someone who probably doesn't really have the life skills to do anything but BW. I especially get this feeling from Flash, however this is definitely just conjecture on my part. I can give the benefit of the doubt that the intent wasn't malicious, especially because of incidents like the matchfixing scandal. The idea that someone like Flash would think that he could risk such a scandal seems crazy to me, it seems more likely to me that he didn't realize that it was wrong until the facts came out and then he panicked and tried to mitigate the damage.
I don't know if this matters to Korean fans, Flash's reactions might be something that some can sympathize with, but he definitely made mistakes and at best lied about the situation when he found out it was wrong. I just don't think this is comparable to Savior because the moral boundaries crossed by Savior are obvious and inherent to the lifestyle they were in. However, I do have sympathy for any of these kids that came up in that team-house environment, even for Savior to some degree. These are people who were abused and overworked in their formative years. I don't think that gets considered enough when we judge these players on a personal level. I don't blame anyone for not wanting to support Flash after this, but I get sad when I see vitriol or messages with a hateful tone, especially in this case where there is reasonable ambiguity as to whether Flash was intentionally malicious or incredibly naïve.
Good post, I agree.
Also when you are the best sc player in the world and you have a life people can only dream of, you’re bound to have jealous people wanting you to fail, and they “expect” more from a person having this lifestyle of abundance that they don’t.
In the end he’s just a person that might have done something stupid without thinking it through and until the facts are in, he should in my opinion be given the benefit of the doubt.
On July 03 2021 22:26 LaStScan wrote: I feel like non-korean speakers are not understanding everything about this bitcoin scandal.(neither do i, but i think i know more information)
People in korea turned their back and hate flash, bisu, other streamers. Flash's first 2 announcements were false information, couple people released recorded voice of their conversation. Fans were shocked when they even try to come back to stream again after things are settled.(you guys should know they make tons of money on stream) flash was also doing some advertisement about the investment in the past and it has connection to the bitcoin. Youtuber 뻑가 summarized on his recent video and some people summarized on ygosu community so you guys can look it up
KCM also said on his youtube live chat "they stabbed their fan's back + worse than savior"
Lastly, don't ask about my opinion.
People shouldn't jump to conclusions because they don't know all the details because of the language barrier, however you didn't present any new information yourself? What?
On July 03 2021 22:26 LaStScan wrote: I feel like non-korean speakers are not understanding everything about this bitcoin scandal.(neither do i, but i think i know more information)
People in korea turned their back and hate flash, bisu, other streamers. Flash's first 2 announcements were false information, couple people released recorded voice of their conversation. Fans were shocked when they even try to come back to stream again after things are settled.(you guys should know they make tons of money on stream) flash was also doing some advertisement about the investment in the past and it has connection to the bitcoin. Youtuber 뻑가 summarized on his recent video and some people summarized on ygosu community so you guys can look it up
KCM also said on his youtube live chat "they stabbed their fan's back + worse than savior"
Lastly, don't ask about my opinion.
People shouldn't jump to conclusions because they don't know all the details because of the language barrier, however you didn't present any new information yourself? What?
Because i also didnt read every post on here and im sure kcm's word should be something new for you.
On July 03 2021 22:26 LaStScan wrote: I feel like non-korean speakers are not understanding everything about this bitcoin scandal.(neither do i, but i think i know more information)
People in korea turned their back and hate flash, bisu, other streamers. Flash's first 2 announcements were false information, couple people released recorded voice of their conversation. Fans were shocked when they even try to come back to stream again after things are settled.(you guys should know they make tons of money on stream) flash was also doing some advertisement about the investment in the past and it has connection to the bitcoin. Youtuber 뻑가 summarized on his recent video and some people summarized on ygosu community so you guys can look it up
KCM also said on his youtube live chat "they stabbed their fan's back + worse than savior"
Lastly, don't ask about my opinion.
People shouldn't jump to conclusions because they don't know all the details because of the language barrier, however you didn't present any new information yourself? What?
It seems well enough documented here, I completely understand why people are upset. Flash definitely did some unsavory things and explicitly lied. When you get caught in a lie (or multiple in this case), you can't be surprised when people expect the worse intentions.
It should also be noted that lots of creators are unaware of how dangerous parasocial relationships can be, but that ignorance is not an excuse. Streamers and content creators need to be very careful when they promote anything, whether it be crypto currency or a device that shaves your private areas. Anyone with a large fanbase should understand that there will be a significant number of people who are susceptible to the slightest suggestion from their favorite creator. The fact that there is anything shady behind the scenes given this context has far more serious consequences.
I won't pretend that my previously stated opinions are not based in wanting to be sympathetic and in believing that we are dealing with possibly emotionally and socially stunted adults, but that doesn't change the fact that there will (and should) be consequences for their actions. The fact that they make so much money directly from their fans can possibly make this more upsetting for those fans directly affected. I just just wish there would be less direct hate slung towards Flash when, so far, I still believe he was likely being incredibly stupid and careless. But I can't tell people not to feel how they feel, I can only offer the reasonings for why I might be sympathetic at this current point in time.
There is definitely a justified reason to be upset with Flash.
On July 03 2021 22:26 LaStScan wrote: I feel like non-korean speakers are not understanding everything about this bitcoin scandal.(neither do i, but i think i know more information)
People in korea turned their back and hate flash, bisu, other streamers. Flash's first 2 announcements were false information, couple people released recorded voice of their conversation. Fans were shocked when they even try to come back to stream again after things are settled.(you guys should know they make tons of money on stream) flash was also doing some advertisement about the investment in the past and it has connection to the bitcoin. Youtuber 뻑가 summarized on his recent video and some people summarized on ygosu community so you guys can look it up
KCM also said on his youtube live chat "they stabbed their fan's back + worse than savior"
Lastly, don't ask about my opinion.
People shouldn't jump to conclusions because they don't know all the details because of the language barrier, however you didn't present any new information yourself? What?
Because i also didnt read every post on here and im sure kcm's word should be something new for you.
It's not actually. It was mentioned before in this thread that KCM has said that.
On July 03 2021 22:26 LaStScan wrote: I feel like non-korean speakers are not understanding everything about this bitcoin scandal.(neither do i, but i think i know more information)
People in korea turned their back and hate flash, bisu, other streamers. Flash's first 2 announcements were false information, couple people released recorded voice of their conversation. Fans were shocked when they even try to come back to stream again after things are settled.(you guys should know they make tons of money on stream) flash was also doing some advertisement about the investment in the past and it has connection to the bitcoin. Youtuber 뻑가 summarized on his recent video and some people summarized on ygosu community so you guys can look it up
KCM also said on his youtube live chat "they stabbed their fan's back + worse than savior"
Lastly, don't ask about my opinion.
People shouldn't jump to conclusions because they don't know all the details because of the language barrier, however you didn't present any new information yourself? What?
It seems well enough documented here, I completely understand why people are upset. Flash definitely did some unsavory things and explicitly lied. When you get caught in a lie (or multiple in this case), you can't be surprised when people expect the worse intentions.
It should also be noted that lots of creators are unaware of how dangerous parasocial relationships can be, but that ignorance is not an excuse. Streamers and content creators need to be very careful when they promote anything, whether it be crypto currency or a device that shaves your private areas. Anyone with a large fanbase should understand that there will be a significant number of people who are susceptible to the slightest suggestion from their favorite creator. The fact that there is anything shady behind the scenes given this context has far more serious consequences.
I won't pretend that my previously stated opinions are not based in wanting to be sympathetic and in believing that we are dealing with possibly emotionally and socially stunted adults, but that doesn't change the fact that there will (and should) be consequences for their actions. The fact that they make so much money directly from their fans can possibly make this more upsetting for those fans directly affected. I just just wish there would be less direct hate slung towards Flash when, so far, I still believe he was likely being incredibly stupid and careless. But I can't tell people not to feel how they feel, I can only offer the reasonings for why I might be sympathetic at this current point in time.
There is definitely a justified reason to be upset with Flash.
I don't buy this whole stunted/socially inept version of these players. Especially the top pro-gamers who've made a lot of money ever since the Kespa era. Money brings a lot of freedom, and if found in the hands of a reasonable person (even if young) they can be of great help rather than the portrayal of deer in the headlights you're putting together here.
This notion that someone that goes the normal route of life to be a more well-rounded individual is pure bs. I'd argue that someone that has earned a decent amount of money very early and has tried to start a small business for example (small restaurant...whatever) has more 'life' experience than a 9-to-5 drone that hasn't taken any risks in their life.
The dynamics of the situation here for Flash are that he estranged his fan-base which is his main active source of income by grooming this new coin onto their eyes and he betrayed his close friends by involving them into this new startup by not knowing the investors and the people around it well enough.
Is he a liar? For sure. Is he an asshole for putting his friends' money at risk? Many would say yes.
On July 03 2021 22:26 LaStScan wrote: I feel like non-korean speakers are not understanding everything about this bitcoin scandal.(neither do i, but i think i know more information)
People in korea turned their back and hate flash, bisu, other streamers. Flash's first 2 announcements were false information, couple people released recorded voice of their conversation. Fans were shocked when they even try to come back to stream again after things are settled.(you guys should know they make tons of money on stream) flash was also doing some advertisement about the investment in the past and it has connection to the bitcoin. Youtuber 뻑가 summarized on his recent video and some people summarized on ygosu community so you guys can look it up
KCM also said on his youtube live chat "they stabbed their fan's back + worse than savior"
Lastly, don't ask about my opinion.
People shouldn't jump to conclusions because they don't know all the details because of the language barrier, however you didn't present any new information yourself? What?
Because i also didnt read every post on here and im sure kcm's word should be something new for you.
It's not actually. It was mentioned before in this thread that KCM has said that.
If you've read the thread I can't see how you don't understand the issue. There's not really any ambiguity as to why this is a problem, the only question is how malicious Flash's intents were. But your intent doesn't necessarily absolve you from the consequences. I also doubt that many people in this thread give money directly to Flash via his stream, and that will affect your emotions as these Korean fans have been directly supporting Flash and now feel betrayed.
Edit: I just read your above response so I do realize that you understand the situation better than I thought. We also can't say that it isn't criminal unless you are aware of Korean laws regarding this.
2nd Edit:
"I don't buy this whole stunted/socially inept version of these players. Especially the top pro-gamers who've made a lot of money ever since the Kespa era. Money brings a lot of freedom, and if found in the hands of a reasonable person (even if young) they can be of great help rather than the portrayal of deer in the headlights you're putting together here."
Flash was what, 15 when he started playing BW? From most accounts of those team houses, they were horrible environments to grow up in. You may not buy that argument, it certainly doesn't mean they are absolved of consequences, but I think it's wrong to not consider the effect that lifestyle has on children and young adults.
This sounds like a failed version of the crypto scams Western influencers have been pulling. Most recently notable the FaZe gaming clan: https://www.pcgamer.com/faze-clan-kicks-one-member-suspends-three-more-over-crypto-scam/ A pretty thorough initial look at the situation: Also I'm a bit confused with the take that Flash is a victim and was swindled here... Have the current reports not been saying that he is not really directly 'invested' but instead has a contract for a certain amount of coin with a guarantee on initial deposit back? This is how the Western crypto scams have been operating as well. Coin/Token makers paying them in tokens to promote the coin and mention they are in it and then they immediately dump it when it goes live.
On July 03 2021 22:26 LaStScan wrote: I feel like non-korean speakers are not understanding everything about this bitcoin scandal.(neither do i, but i think i know more information)
People in korea turned their back and hate flash, bisu, other streamers. Flash's first 2 announcements were false information, couple people released recorded voice of their conversation. Fans were shocked when they even try to come back to stream again after things are settled.(you guys should know they make tons of money on stream) flash was also doing some advertisement about the investment in the past and it has connection to the bitcoin. Youtuber 뻑가 summarized on his recent video and some people summarized on ygosu community so you guys can look it up
KCM also said on his youtube live chat "they stabbed their fan's back + worse than savior"
Lastly, don't ask about my opinion.
People shouldn't jump to conclusions because they don't know all the details because of the language barrier, however you didn't present any new information yourself? What?
Because i also didnt read every post on here and im sure kcm's word should be something new for you.
It's not actually. It was mentioned before in this thread that KCM has said that.
2nd Edit:
"I don't buy this whole stunted/socially inept version of these players. Especially the top pro-gamers who've made a lot of money ever since the Kespa era. Money brings a lot of freedom, and if found in the hands of a reasonable person (even if young) they can be of great help rather than the portrayal of deer in the headlights you're putting together here."
Flash was what, 15 when he started playing BW? From most accounts of those team houses, they were horrible environments to grow up in. You may not buy that argument, it certainly doesn't mean they are absolved of consequences, but I think it's wrong to not consider the effect that lifestyle has on children and young adults.
Ehhhh, allow me to be a bit skeptical about that.
I would think someone that hustles around the streets and has to work for a living at that age is far worse of an upbringing than having to wake up early in the morning to work out and then play a video game for the rest of the day for more money than their parents made in their lifetimes.
On July 03 2021 22:26 LaStScan wrote: I feel like non-korean speakers are not understanding everything about this bitcoin scandal.(neither do i, but i think i know more information)
People in korea turned their back and hate flash, bisu, other streamers. Flash's first 2 announcements were false information, couple people released recorded voice of their conversation. Fans were shocked when they even try to come back to stream again after things are settled.(you guys should know they make tons of money on stream) flash was also doing some advertisement about the investment in the past and it has connection to the bitcoin. Youtuber 뻑가 summarized on his recent video and some people summarized on ygosu community so you guys can look it up
KCM also said on his youtube live chat "they stabbed their fan's back + worse than savior"
Lastly, don't ask about my opinion.
People shouldn't jump to conclusions because they don't know all the details because of the language barrier, however you didn't present any new information yourself? What?
It seems well enough documented here, I completely understand why people are upset. Flash definitely did some unsavory things and explicitly lied. When you get caught in a lie (or multiple in this case), you can't be surprised when people expect the worse intentions.
It should also be noted that lots of creators are unaware of how dangerous parasocial relationships can be, but that ignorance is not an excuse. Streamers and content creators need to be very careful when they promote anything, whether it be crypto currency or a device that shaves your private areas. Anyone with a large fanbase should understand that there will be a significant number of people who are susceptible to the slightest suggestion from their favorite creator. The fact that there is anything shady behind the scenes given this context has far more serious consequences.
I won't pretend that my previously stated opinions are not based in wanting to be sympathetic and in believing that we are dealing with possibly emotionally and socially stunted adults, but that doesn't change the fact that there will (and should) be consequences for their actions. The fact that they make so much money directly from their fans can possibly make this more upsetting for those fans directly affected. I just just wish there would be less direct hate slung towards Flash when, so far, I still believe he was likely being incredibly stupid and careless. But I can't tell people not to feel how they feel, I can only offer the reasonings for why I might be sympathetic at this current point in time.
There is definitely a justified reason to be upset with Flash.
I don't buy this whole stunted/socially inept version of these players. Especially the top pro-gamers who've made a lot of money ever since the Kespa era. Money brings a lot of freedom, and if found in the hands of a reasonable person (even if young) they can be of great help rather than the portrayal of deer in the headlights you're putting together here.
This notion that someone that goes the normal route of life to be a more well-rounded individual is pure bs. I'd argue that someone that has earned a decent amount of money very early and has tried to start a small business for example (small restaurant...whatever) has more 'life' experience than a 9-to-5 drone that hasn't taken any risks in their life.
The dynamics of the situation here for Flash are that he estranged his fan-base which is his main active source of income by grooming this new coin onto their eyes and he betrayed his close friends by involving them into this new startup by not knowing the investors and the people around it well enough.
Is he a liar? For sure. Is he an asshole for putting his friends' money at risk? Many would say yes.
Is he a criminal? Fuck no. Savior is.
This is normally a crime when its non coin related transactions such as stock. Flash got lucky this is just a coin that has not seen much regulations in korea. What flash did is arguably worse than savior. He was about to send possily hundres of his fans to commit suicide from losing their entire money lol.
On July 03 2021 22:26 LaStScan wrote: I feel like non-korean speakers are not understanding everything about this bitcoin scandal.(neither do i, but i think i know more information)
People in korea turned their back and hate flash, bisu, other streamers. Flash's first 2 announcements were false information, couple people released recorded voice of their conversation. Fans were shocked when they even try to come back to stream again after things are settled.(you guys should know they make tons of money on stream) flash was also doing some advertisement about the investment in the past and it has connection to the bitcoin. Youtuber 뻑가 summarized on his recent video and some people summarized on ygosu community so you guys can look it up
KCM also said on his youtube live chat "they stabbed their fan's back + worse than savior"
Lastly, don't ask about my opinion.
People shouldn't jump to conclusions because they don't know all the details because of the language barrier, however you didn't present any new information yourself? What?
It seems well enough documented here, I completely understand why people are upset. Flash definitely did some unsavory things and explicitly lied. When you get caught in a lie (or multiple in this case), you can't be surprised when people expect the worse intentions.
It should also be noted that lots of creators are unaware of how dangerous parasocial relationships can be, but that ignorance is not an excuse. Streamers and content creators need to be very careful when they promote anything, whether it be crypto currency or a device that shaves your private areas. Anyone with a large fanbase should understand that there will be a significant number of people who are susceptible to the slightest suggestion from their favorite creator. The fact that there is anything shady behind the scenes given this context has far more serious consequences.
I won't pretend that my previously stated opinions are not based in wanting to be sympathetic and in believing that we are dealing with possibly emotionally and socially stunted adults, but that doesn't change the fact that there will (and should) be consequences for their actions. The fact that they make so much money directly from their fans can possibly make this more upsetting for those fans directly affected. I just just wish there would be less direct hate slung towards Flash when, so far, I still believe he was likely being incredibly stupid and careless. But I can't tell people not to feel how they feel, I can only offer the reasonings for why I might be sympathetic at this current point in time.
There is definitely a justified reason to be upset with Flash.
I don't buy this whole stunted/socially inept version of these players. Especially the top pro-gamers who've made a lot of money ever since the Kespa era. Money brings a lot of freedom, and if found in the hands of a reasonable person (even if young) they can be of great help rather than the portrayal of deer in the headlights you're putting together here.
This notion that someone that goes the normal route of life to be a more well-rounded individual is pure bs. I'd argue that someone that has earned a decent amount of money very early and has tried to start a small business for example (small restaurant...whatever) has more 'life' experience than a 9-to-5 drone that hasn't taken any risks in their life.
The dynamics of the situation here for Flash are that he estranged his fan-base which is his main active source of income by grooming this new coin onto their eyes and he betrayed his close friends by involving them into this new startup by not knowing the investors and the people around it well enough.
Is he a liar? For sure. Is he an asshole for putting his friends' money at risk? Many would say yes.
Is he a criminal? Fuck no. Savior is.
This is normally a crime when its non coin related transactions such as stock. Flash got lucky this is just a coin that has not seen much regulations in korea. What flash did is arguably worse than savior. He was about to send possily hundres of his fans to commit suicide from losing their entire money lol.
ummm except you cant prove it was a pump and dump scheme? even if you could you cant prove that flash knew about it when he made the investment. theres no evidence of flash promoting this coin on his stream and this coin hasnt been purchased by anyone, therefore no one suffered any losses. saying "im investing in crypto" is not the same as "im investing in this new coin called TO coin that is yet to be released". your entire last sentence is speculative at best and defamatory at worst
On July 03 2021 18:12 KameZerg wrote: being a pump and dump scammer and encouraging people (huge audience) to participate (lose all their invested money) is worse than a match fixer which takes some money under the table from a broker to throw a game but what savior did was worse than being a matchfixer because he also acted as the broker between betters and gamers.
youve been spewing the same shit since page 1. amazing how after 7 pages of new information you keep saying the same thing. ladies and gentlemen, this is exhibit A of the tl equivalent to the korean netizens on an unreasonable witchhunt.
haha dont be inlove with flash, he knew what he was doing and it's clear as blue. I'm in crypto for a long time, it's textbook scheme that only greedy newbies fall for and the guy who paid him was hoping to lure his naive viewers.
On July 03 2021 18:12 KameZerg wrote: being a pump and dump scammer and encouraging people (huge audience) to participate (lose all their invested money) is worse than a match fixer which takes some money under the table from a broker to throw a game but what savior did was worse than being a matchfixer because he also acted as the broker between betters and gamers.
youve been spewing the same shit since page 1. amazing how after 7 pages of new information you keep saying the same thing. ladies and gentlemen, this is exhibit A of the tl equivalent to the korean netizens on an unreasonable witchhunt.
haha dont be inlove with flash, he knew what he was doing and it's clear as blue. I'm in crypto for a long time, it's textbook scheme that only greedy newbies fall for and the guy who paid him was hoping to lure his naive viewers.
exactly, the other guy is like loyal flash fan it seems. I also thought flash was innocent but after seeing tape records, all the lies, and backtracking it's safe to say flash knew what was going on
On July 03 2021 22:26 LaStScan wrote: I feel like non-korean speakers are not understanding everything about this bitcoin scandal.(neither do i, but i think i know more information)
People in korea turned their back and hate flash, bisu, other streamers. Flash's first 2 announcements were false information, couple people released recorded voice of their conversation. Fans were shocked when they even try to come back to stream again after things are settled.(you guys should know they make tons of money on stream) flash was also doing some advertisement about the investment in the past and it has connection to the bitcoin. Youtuber 뻑가 summarized on his recent video and some people summarized on ygosu community so you guys can look it up
KCM also said on his youtube live chat "they stabbed their fan's back + worse than savior"
Lastly, don't ask about my opinion.
People shouldn't jump to conclusions because they don't know all the details because of the language barrier, however you didn't present any new information yourself? What?
Because i also didnt read every post on here and im sure kcm's word should be something new for you.
It's not actually. It was mentioned before in this thread that KCM has said that.
If you've read the thread I can't see how you don't understand the issue. There's not really any ambiguity as to why this is a problem, the only question is how malicious Flash's intents were. But your intent doesn't necessarily absolve you from the consequences. I also doubt that many people in this thread give money directly to Flash via his stream, and that will affect your emotions as these Korean fans have been directly supporting Flash and now feel betrayed.
Edit: I just read your above response so I do realize that you understand the situation better than I thought. We also can't say that it isn't criminal unless you are aware of Korean laws regarding this.
2nd Edit:
"I don't buy this whole stunted/socially inept version of these players. Especially the top pro-gamers who've made a lot of money ever since the Kespa era. Money brings a lot of freedom, and if found in the hands of a reasonable person (even if young) they can be of great help rather than the portrayal of deer in the headlights you're putting together here."
Flash was what, 15 when he started playing BW? From most accounts of those team houses, they were horrible environments to grow up in. You may not buy that argument, it certainly doesn't mean they are absolved of consequences, but I think it's wrong to not consider the effect that lifestyle has on children and young adults.
I think this idea that they are stunted would've worked much better if they were still living in teamhouses and competing there. Flash has been around and living on his own (afaik) since he came back to BW so say 2017. That's 4 years where he's had a chance to live and learn stuff as he goes along. Not to mention that Shinokuki posted that Flash has apparently been involved in Cryptos for years now and considers himself a "guru" so that lends more credence to the fact that something fishy is going on if an apparent "guru" could not spot a pump and dump when he got personally involved.
On July 03 2021 18:12 KameZerg wrote: being a pump and dump scammer and encouraging people (huge audience) to participate (lose all their invested money) is worse than a match fixer which takes some money under the table from a broker to throw a game but what savior did was worse than being a matchfixer because he also acted as the broker between betters and gamers.
youve been spewing the same shit since page 1. amazing how after 7 pages of new information you keep saying the same thing. ladies and gentlemen, this is exhibit A of the tl equivalent to the korean netizens on an unreasonable witchhunt.
haha dont be inlove with flash, he knew what he was doing and it's clear as blue. I'm in crypto for a long time, it's textbook scheme that only greedy newbies fall for and the guy who paid him was hoping to lure his naive viewers.
exactly, the other guy is like loyal flash fan it seems. I also thought flash was innocent but after seeing tape records, all the lies, and backtracking it's safe to say flash knew what was going on
Can you provide links or some translation of these records? It feels like Flash has already been judged based on the evidence available so far in the KR community, but we are missing lots of information. Even a rough translation would be helpful.
This is disappointing. I dug around on Ygosu, and it's pretty much impossible to get Flash and others off the hook. For those unaware, there were lots of BJs involved, but the BW ones are Bisu, Flash, Sea, Brittney, and Guemchi. The latter two were already in an unrecoverable image crisis (in short: BDSM jokes about a Korean independence martyr), so I wonder if they're looking for other career avenues. All the sources contain photographic proof, so don't tell me they're hearsay written by angry Korean keyboarders.
2. Flash doesn't regret a goddamn thing There was a recorded conversation between the ex-pros and Suit caught up in this mess. Flash talks about how he and others can recuperate their image to get back to broadcasting. Does this sound like someone who regrets putting their loyal fans' wallets at risk?
3. Hell yes they were paid to advertise the cryptocurrency People seem to be in denial about this, but Suit and the people involved signed a contract that guaranteed some return to the progamers even if the cryptocurrency zeroed out. It's insanity to think Suit would guarantee returns without something in return, the most obvious answer being advertisement. Now why would broadcasters be guaranteed pay and asked to bring up the cryptocurrency on the streams? Why would Flash 'apologize' about the impact his actions would have on the viewers after the truth was found out? I'm legitimately curious what other than a pump and dump scam do some of you think this was.
4. Flash sold out his own mother... Not that this is illegal, but this is really damns Flash's image for me personally. On June 23rd, Flash claimed that his mother put in 200 million Won (~$175,000) after talking with Suit, which is ridiculous for a 28 year old man who makes more in half a year than a common salarymen does in a decade. Of course it's ridiculous, as his future postings (like the one on June 30th in the same link) mysteriously never mention his mother again when the truth about his involvement came out.
5. Flash was the broker beyond the shadow of a doubt Brittney confessed that Flash was the one who did this to start. Remember, Brittney is practically blacklisted due to his previous scandal, and incriminating Flash doesn't make him any less innocent anyhow. Not to mention, Flash's explanation of what happened makes no logical sense. His stance is that he invited popular streamers for drinks, and Suit just happened to call at the right time and joined in, and after some coddling got them on board. First time is maybe a coincidence, but this happened twice when Flash invited other streamers over for drinks. It doesn't take much imagination to see those meetings as being planned well in advance.
TL;DR: They knew exactly what they were doing, and are feigning victimhood to be able to broadcast again.
KCM put it best when he said that these four rose to stardom due to their fans and decided to return the favour with a knife in the back. As a fan of Bisu, I feel a little bad him as he invested a day before the news broke out. That doesn't change the fact that he was smiling at the thought of making millions of Wons off his fans' misery though.
I can't deny that I want to see Bisu and Flash play again, but I hope the fans never forget about this incident.
I love BW with all my heart; but why would any one listen to BW streamers for investment advice? Just buy a S&P 500 index fund and hold, if you don't know shit.
On July 04 2021 09:17 RWLabs wrote: This is disappointing. I dug around on Ygosu, and it's pretty much impossible to get Flash and others off the hook. For those unaware, there were lots of BJs involved, but the BW ones are Bisu, Flash, Sea, Brittney, and Guemchi. The latter two were already in an unrecoverable image crisis (in short: BDSM jokes about a Korean independence martyr), so I wonder if they're looking for other career avenues. All the sources contain photographic proof, so don't tell me they're hearsay written by angry Korean keyboarders.
2. Flash doesn't regret a goddamn thing There was a recorded conversation between the ex-pros and Suit caught up in this mess. Flash talks about how he and others can recuperate their image to get back to broadcasting. Does this sound like someone who regrets putting their loyal fans' wallets at risk?
3. Hell yes they were paid to advertise the cryptocurrency People seem to be in denial about this, but Suit and the people involved signed a contract that guaranteed some return to the progamers even if the cryptocurrency zeroed out. It's insanity to think Suit would guarantee returns without something in return, the most obvious answer being advertisement. Now why would broadcasters be guaranteed pay and asked to bring up the cryptocurrency on the streams? Why would Flash 'apologize' about the impact his actions would have on the viewers after the truth was found out? I'm legitimately curious what other than a pump and dump scam do some of you think this was.
4. Flash sold out his own mother... Not that this is illegal, but this is really damns Flash's image for me personally. On June 23rd, Flash claimed that his mother put in 200 million Won (~$175,000) after talking with Suit, which is ridiculous for a 28 year old man who makes more in half a year than a common salarymen does in a decade. Of course it's ridiculous, as his future postings (like the one on June 30th in the same link) mysteriously never mention his mother again when the truth about his involvement came out.
5. Flash was the broker beyond the shadow of a doubt Brittney confessed that Flash was the one who did this to start. Remember, Brittney is practically blacklisted due to his previous scandal, and incriminating Flash doesn't make him any less innocent anyhow. Not to mention, Flash's explanation of what happened makes no logical sense. His stance is that he invited popular streamers for drinks, and Suit just happened to call at the right time and joined in, and after some coddling got them on board. First time is maybe a coincidence, but this happened twice when Flash invited other streamers over for drinks. It doesn't take much imagination to see those meetings as being planned well in advance.
TL;DR: They knew exactly what they were doing, and are feigning victimhood to be able to broadcast again.
KCM put it best when he said that these four rose to stardom due to their fans and decided to return the favour with a knife in the back. As a fan of Bisu, I feel a little bad him as he invested a day before the news broke out. That doesn't change the fact that he was smiling at the thought of making millions of Wons off his fans' misery though.
I can't deny that I want to see Bisu and Flash play again, but I hope the fans never forget about this incident.
Oof, that is hard not to see as intentionally malicious. What a huge disappointment. And to swindle your friends and colleagues on top of your fans. I'll never understand how greed can drive someone already wealthy to do such things.
I still have the smallest amount of empathy for these players, but I now understand the comparisons to Savior.
3. Hell yes they were paid to advertise the cryptocurrency People seem to be in denial about this, but Suit and the people involved signed a contract that guaranteed some return to the progamers even if the cryptocurrency zeroed out. It's insanity to think Suit would guarantee returns without something in return, the most obvious answer being advertisement. Now why would broadcasters be guaranteed pay and asked to bring up the cryptocurrency on the streams? Why would Flash 'apologize' about the impact his actions would have on the viewers after the truth was found out? I'm legitimately curious what other than a pump and dump scam do some of you think this was.
Now this right here is actual evidence. This is incriminating.
I don't know anything about Korean law but this is sufficient + plus the recordings of when Flash mentioned the currency on stream in most places for a law-suit. And if there are any early adopters there's no reason they shouldn't do it.
Also, depending on how much they knew, other progamers that just brought their money in without any other involvement could sue Flash.
The most I feel kinda sorry for is Bisu since he will be dragged on along with the others while he most likely knew the least and just tagged along afraid to not miss on a bag of money.
---
On a personal note, I'm not suprised that Flash and Britney are Grade A assholes. I kind of always suspected it.
On July 04 2021 09:17 RWLabs wrote: I'm legitimately curious what other than a pump and dump scam do some of you think this was.
I mean, is it possible that they just wanted to invest in a coin they thought could actually succeed? Guaranteeing the investment doesn't 100% mean they were going to dump it as they wouldn't necessarily need the guarantee if they were going to wait for it to spike and unload their coin.
However, it is still incredibly bad to not disclose that guarantee as that information would obviously cause many fans to think twice about investing. And it seems that Flash was 100% aware of this throughout the process and wanted to utilize his celebrity status to increase the value of the coin, which I think should be illegal, regardless of whether they planned to dump the coin at some point.
On July 04 2021 09:45 LinYu_roy wrote: I love BW with all my heart; but why would any one listen to BW streamers for investment advice? Just buy a S&P 500 index fund and hold, if you don't know shit.
While I agree that ETFs are the way to go, I think differently. Firstly, even exposure itself is advertisement- this is why companies dump millions to have their products in the background of movie scenes. In this case, this happened while the zeitgeist of the Dogecoin boom was in the air, and even in the West lots of people are anxious to find the next boom. Not to mention that most people aren't too familiar with stocks anyways (especially people who spend money on streamers lmao).
Secondly, BJs make their living through essentially making friends with people online. For example, lots of them refer to their viewers as 형님들 (literally 'older brother', but in Korean culture this is used even without blood ties). To lots of Koreans a BJ isn't just a retard on the screen, but someone you build a relationship with especially/exclusively if you have lots of Star Balloons. Suit himself joined lots of progamers' inner circles this way, to the point of him casually sharing meals with Flash and Bisu. In short, to lots of viewers there's a level of trust as if the BJ is a good friend.
Now combine both factors to think of the effect that this would have. For most people, word of mouth trumps all else- I know I've watched movies with 40% RT ratings because my friends recommended it. It's infuriating that the BJs peddled a coin, fully aware that at least some fans would buy the coin because of what they said, and that they'd make money off emptying said fans' wallets.
On July 04 2021 09:17 RWLabs wrote: This is disappointing. I dug around on Ygosu, and it's pretty much impossible to get Flash and others off the hook. For those unaware, there were lots of BJs involved, but the BW ones are Bisu, Flash, Sea, Brittney, and Guemchi. The latter two were already in an unrecoverable image crisis (in short: BDSM jokes about a Korean independence martyr), so I wonder if they're looking for other career avenues. All the sources contain photographic proof, so don't tell me they're hearsay written by angry Korean keyboarders.
2. Flash doesn't regret a goddamn thing There was a recorded conversation between the ex-pros and Suit caught up in this mess. Flash talks about how he and others can recuperate their image to get back to broadcasting. Does this sound like someone who regrets putting their loyal fans' wallets at risk?
3. Hell yes they were paid to advertise the cryptocurrency People seem to be in denial about this, but Suit and the people involved signed a contract that guaranteed some return to the progamers even if the cryptocurrency zeroed out. It's insanity to think Suit would guarantee returns without something in return, the most obvious answer being advertisement. Now why would broadcasters be guaranteed pay and asked to bring up the cryptocurrency on the streams? Why would Flash 'apologize' about the impact his actions would have on the viewers after the truth was found out? I'm legitimately curious what other than a pump and dump scam do some of you think this was.
4. Flash sold out his own mother... Not that this is illegal, but this is really damns Flash's image for me personally. On June 23rd, Flash claimed that his mother put in 200 million Won (~$175,000) after talking with Suit, which is ridiculous for a 28 year old man who makes more in half a year than a common salarymen does in a decade. Of course it's ridiculous, as his future postings (like the one on June 30th in the same link) mysteriously never mention his mother again when the truth about his involvement came out.
5. Flash was the broker beyond the shadow of a doubt Brittney confessed that Flash was the one who did this to start. Remember, Brittney is practically blacklisted due to his previous scandal, and incriminating Flash doesn't make him any less innocent anyhow. Not to mention, Flash's explanation of what happened makes no logical sense. His stance is that he invited popular streamers for drinks, and Suit just happened to call at the right time and joined in, and after some coddling got them on board. First time is maybe a coincidence, but this happened twice when Flash invited other streamers over for drinks. It doesn't take much imagination to see those meetings as being planned well in advance.
TL;DR: They knew exactly what they were doing, and are feigning victimhood to be able to broadcast again.
KCM put it best when he said that these four rose to stardom due to their fans and decided to return the favour with a knife in the back. As a fan of Bisu, I feel a little bad him as he invested a day before the news broke out. That doesn't change the fact that he was smiling at the thought of making millions of Wons off his fans' misery though.
I can't deny that I want to see Bisu and Flash play again, but I hope the fans never forget about this incident.
Wow, nice job summarizing those details. I think foreigners were missing lot of key infos with good evidence.
On July 04 2021 09:45 LinYu_roy wrote: I love BW with all my heart; but why would any one listen to BW streamers for investment advice? Just buy a S&P 500 index fund and hold, if you don't know shit.
While I agree that ETFs are the way to go, I think differently. Firstly, even exposure itself is advertisement- this is why companies dump millions to have their products in the background of movie scenes. In this case, this happened while the zeitgeist of the Dogecoin boom was in the air, and even in the West lots of people are anxious to find the next boom. Not to mention that most people aren't too familiar with stocks anyways (especially people who spend money on streamers lmao).
Secondly, BJs make their living through essentially making friends with people online. For example, lots of them refer to their viewers as 형님들 (literally 'older brother', but in Korean culture this is used even without blood ties). To lots of Koreans a BJ isn't just a retard on the screen, but someone you build a relationship with especially/exclusively if you have lots of Star Balloons. Suit himself joined lots of progamers' inner circles this way, to the point of him casually sharing meals with Flash and Bisu. In short, to lots of viewers there's a level of trust as if the BJ is a good friend.
Now combine both factors to think of the effect that this would have. For most people, word of mouth trumps all else- I know I've watched movies with 40% RT ratings because my friends recommended it. It's infuriating that the BJs peddled a coin, fully aware that at least some fans would buy the coin because of what they said, and that they'd make money off emptying said fans' wallets.
I get your point, which is a good one.
I guess what I tried to say is that, investing your life savings is different from selecting sodas or shopping T-shirts, you have to always do your own due diligence. You cannot outsource thinking on such matters to others, not your neighbors, not your brothers, let alone some streamers.
On July 04 2021 09:17 RWLabs wrote: This is disappointing. I dug around on Ygosu, and it's pretty much impossible to get Flash and others off the hook. For those unaware, there were lots of BJs involved, but the BW ones are Bisu, Flash, Sea, Brittney, and Guemchi. The latter two were already in an unrecoverable image crisis (in short: BDSM jokes about a Korean independence martyr), so I wonder if they're looking for other career avenues. All the sources contain photographic proof, so don't tell me they're hearsay written by angry Korean keyboarders.
2. Flash doesn't regret a goddamn thing There was a recorded conversation between the ex-pros and Suit caught up in this mess. Flash talks about how he and others can recuperate their image to get back to broadcasting. Does this sound like someone who regrets putting their loyal fans' wallets at risk?
3. Hell yes they were paid to advertise the cryptocurrency People seem to be in denial about this, but Suit and the people involved signed a contract that guaranteed some return to the progamers even if the cryptocurrency zeroed out. It's insanity to think Suit would guarantee returns without something in return, the most obvious answer being advertisement. Now why would broadcasters be guaranteed pay and asked to bring up the cryptocurrency on the streams? Why would Flash 'apologize' about the impact his actions would have on the viewers after the truth was found out? I'm legitimately curious what other than a pump and dump scam do some of you think this was.
4. Flash sold out his own mother... Not that this is illegal, but this is really damns Flash's image for me personally. On June 23rd, Flash claimed that his mother put in 200 million Won (~$175,000) after talking with Suit, which is ridiculous for a 28 year old man who makes more in half a year than a common salarymen does in a decade. Of course it's ridiculous, as his future postings (like the one on June 30th in the same link) mysteriously never mention his mother again when the truth about his involvement came out.
5. Flash was the broker beyond the shadow of a doubt Brittney confessed that Flash was the one who did this to start. Remember, Brittney is practically blacklisted due to his previous scandal, and incriminating Flash doesn't make him any less innocent anyhow. Not to mention, Flash's explanation of what happened makes no logical sense. His stance is that he invited popular streamers for drinks, and Suit just happened to call at the right time and joined in, and after some coddling got them on board. First time is maybe a coincidence, but this happened twice when Flash invited other streamers over for drinks. It doesn't take much imagination to see those meetings as being planned well in advance.
TL;DR: They knew exactly what they were doing, and are feigning victimhood to be able to broadcast again.
KCM put it best when he said that these four rose to stardom due to their fans and decided to return the favour with a knife in the back. As a fan of Bisu, I feel a little bad him as he invested a day before the news broke out. That doesn't change the fact that he was smiling at the thought of making millions of Wons off his fans' misery though.
I can't deny that I want to see Bisu and Flash play again, but I hope the fans never forget about this incident.
Yea when I read those when the news broke out, but ygosu/fmkorea/dcinside does tend to take everything for the worst and selectively pick out sensationalist news, including with flash's ex-gf incident that later turned out to be all fine for flash end, so I took those news with grain of salt
Its all possible that every one of FlaSh's excuses announcements to be true, but way he handled the whole thing was disasterous and small lies/excuses all piled up. Being naive doesnt excuse you from being a big instigator to potential pump and dump scam though.
I personally don't believe FlaSh/Bisu/ect are types of people to risk their entire legacy they built up for past 15 years just for few million in profit when they clearly know the benefit of being decorated starcraft player for future, but rather extremely naive and didn't go in to this thinking this was incredibly good deal to refuse, but the way they handled these announcements and excuses were disappointing and disgusting to say the least. Had they just stepped up and owned up for their mistakes, this wouldn't have been as bad, but these were just disasterous and lost all credibility in my eyes
On July 04 2021 09:17 RWLabs wrote: This is disappointing. I dug around on Ygosu, and it's pretty much impossible to get Flash and others off the hook. For those unaware, there were lots of BJs involved, but the BW ones are Bisu, Flash, Sea, Brittney, and Guemchi. The latter two were already in an unrecoverable image crisis (in short: BDSM jokes about a Korean independence martyr), so I wonder if they're looking for other career avenues. All the sources contain photographic proof, so don't tell me they're hearsay written by angry Korean keyboarders.
2. Flash doesn't regret a goddamn thing There was a recorded conversation between the ex-pros and Suit caught up in this mess. Flash talks about how he and others can recuperate their image to get back to broadcasting. Does this sound like someone who regrets putting their loyal fans' wallets at risk?
3. Hell yes they were paid to advertise the cryptocurrency People seem to be in denial about this, but Suit and the people involved signed a contract that guaranteed some return to the progamers even if the cryptocurrency zeroed out. It's insanity to think Suit would guarantee returns without something in return, the most obvious answer being advertisement. Now why would broadcasters be guaranteed pay and asked to bring up the cryptocurrency on the streams? Why would Flash 'apologize' about the impact his actions would have on the viewers after the truth was found out? I'm legitimately curious what other than a pump and dump scam do some of you think this was.
4. Flash sold out his own mother... Not that this is illegal, but this is really damns Flash's image for me personally. On June 23rd, Flash claimed that his mother put in 200 million Won (~$175,000) after talking with Suit, which is ridiculous for a 28 year old man who makes more in half a year than a common salarymen does in a decade. Of course it's ridiculous, as his future postings (like the one on June 30th in the same link) mysteriously never mention his mother again when the truth about his involvement came out.
5. Flash was the broker beyond the shadow of a doubt Brittney confessed that Flash was the one who did this to start. Remember, Brittney is practically blacklisted due to his previous scandal, and incriminating Flash doesn't make him any less innocent anyhow. Not to mention, Flash's explanation of what happened makes no logical sense. His stance is that he invited popular streamers for drinks, and Suit just happened to call at the right time and joined in, and after some coddling got them on board. First time is maybe a coincidence, but this happened twice when Flash invited other streamers over for drinks. It doesn't take much imagination to see those meetings as being planned well in advance.
TL;DR: They knew exactly what they were doing, and are feigning victimhood to be able to broadcast again.
KCM put it best when he said that these four rose to stardom due to their fans and decided to return the favour with a knife in the back. As a fan of Bisu, I feel a little bad him as he invested a day before the news broke out. That doesn't change the fact that he was smiling at the thought of making millions of Wons off his fans' misery though.
I can't deny that I want to see Bisu and Flash play again, but I hope the fans never forget about this incident.
This was a really good post. It summarized everything so well and gives good counter points to the most common arguments. A must read imo. I feel the worst for Bisu because he just happened to join the day before, but if he had an inkling of this scheme and decided to still go for it, well, I can't say much. It was always interesting that Flash had this squeaky clean image in the scene which was great to see, but to see it reversed almost overnight is just really bizzare.
Either way, I'm not expecting any of them to stream BW any time soon, if ever. Is it possible to get more details about what Brittney and GuemChi spoke about regarding that martyr? Why would they even go that far if they risked being blacklisted? I just hope that ASL and ASTL won't be tainted but it will be interesting to see what Afreeca does. Banning Flash, Bisu, Sea, Brittney and Guemchi from ASL is something I never thought I would see.
On July 04 2021 11:11 LinYu_roy wrote: I get your point, which is a good one.
I guess what I tried to say is that, investing your life savings is different from selecting sodas or shopping T-shirts, you have to always do your own due diligence. You cannot outsource thinking on such matters to others, not your neighbors, not your brothers, let alone some streamers.
I 100% agree with your statement.
On July 04 2021 12:14 BigFan wrote: Either way, I'm not expecting any of them to stream BW any time soon, if ever. Is it possible to get more details about what Brittney and GuemChi spoke about regarding that martyr?
Note that this is a both off topic and morbid, so read at your own discretion.
During the Japanese occupation, there was a political activist named Ryu Gwansun. She and other activists on April 1st 1919 shouted "Hurrah for Korean independence!" in a political demonstration, for which she was apprehended by Japanese authorities. Refusing to admit guilt and after months of torture that broke activists older than her, she died at the age of 17. Since then, she became the symbol of Korean independence.
In May of this year, Guemchi, Brittney, and two female BJs were jokingly talking about BDSM, and Brittney demonstrated what it would look like to be in a spread eagle pose during BDSM, raising both his hands. He then shouted "Hurrah for Korean Independence!", clearly emulating the political activists. It was already a bit fucky for most viewers at this point, but then Guemchi took it one step further and joked "Are you Ryu Gwansun of 2021?" It wasn't until later in the broadcast they realized how grave the situation was, and apologized.
I admit, Koreans are hyper patriotic and uptight. Go out in Seoul and proclaim loudly that Dokdo is Japanese, and you'll find rational English-speaking Koreans willing to go to jail to beat your ass. Still, it was poor judgment to make a sex joke not only about a heroine in Korean culture, but also an underage one at that. The closest comparison in the West would be someone like Anne Frank, though culturally it wasn't a complete outrage when Family Guy made jokes about her. Maybe a better fit would be Joan of Arc for the French? idk
I was so happy about the ASL reaching an all-time high viewership, the rise of two new talents in Mini and Larva, as well as loads of big name non-Starcraft BJs giving BW a try. But this incident and the Coingate shit really gets me. The aftermath is the accused becoming pariahs, yes, but it also paints a horrid picture of BW progamers and BJs to the general Korean audiences.
Big thanks to RWLabs for the breakdown! Very much appreciated since it's so hard to know the facts as a foreigner. The chance of Flash being completely guilty looks to be quite high. There's also no chance that he's completely innocent.
I went back to read about Flash's version of events (post #129 by jinjin5000). According to that, on June 1st Suit asked to join Flash, Sea and Bisu. A few days later on the 6th, Suit met up with Flash again.
This is just to understand the timeline of events better.
On another note (this is just me doing speculation) doesn't this whole thing make Bisu's recent decision to stop streaming look a bit strange? I never bought his reasoning that he felt like he'd be unable to return to form.
On July 04 2021 14:09 Magic Powers wrote: Big thanks to RWLabs for the breakdown! Very much appreciated since it's so hard to know the facts as a foreigner. The chance of Flash being completely guilty looks to be quite high. There's also no chance that he's completely innocent.
I went back to read about Flash's version of events (post #129 by jinjin5000). According to that, on June 1st Suit asked to join Flash, Sea and Bisu. A few days later on the 6th, Suit met up with Flash again.
This is just to understand the timeline of events better.
On another note (this is just me doing speculation) doesn't this whole thing make Bisu's recent decision to stop streaming look a bit strange? I never bought his reasoning that he felt like he'd be unable to return to form.
That's when FlaSh represented a coin trading site called foblgate as its "adviser" (more like sponsor for exposure seems like), and ygosu were calling FlaSh out on "if you worked as advisor for foblgate coin trading site, how do you not know how coin trading worked?"
question was, when he "advised" for foblgate. edit: found it myself
4th july 2019
thank you for the infos and links RWLabs.
edit: i would also like to find out what guemchi has to say about it. if i remember correctly he also managed to be in the "incident" where soulkey lost a lot of money.
edit: i would also like to find out what guemchi has to say about it. if i remember correctly he also managed to be in the "incident" where soulkey lost a lot of money.
July 4th, so that's three days after Suit was first invited over and two days before the second invite. This throws a curveball into Flash's version of events, because he said, quote (from his apology):
"Second, it was June 6th, with me, JustLikeThat, GGulTengTeng drinking together in my house. That also was just gathering with friends rather than being about investing." Here Flash said that this invite on the 6th was intended for a friendly gathering and no talks of investment were planned.
"Suit asked this time as well if it was okay to come over and I asked JustLikeThat, GGulTengTeng if it was okay, and when they said it was, Suit came over."
"After that, talks of investing came out, and whether I intended it or not, the instigation came from me in the end, so I believe that it is my fault." Here Flash said that, after Suit's arrival, he (Flash) initiated talks of investment.
Flash's timeline is problematic, because he displayed the FOBLGATE logo (it looks to be physical btw) on the 4th, which is right between the two gatherings with Suit. It's also suspicious that he wouldn't mention that in his apology. It's not easy to believe that he "forgot" about putting up the logo, because it's directly tied to the whole scandal and a crucial element in the timeline. So he seems to have purposely omitted this fact in his apology. Something that adds to the suspicion is the wording Flash uses (unless this is somehow lost in translation): "whether I intended it or not, the instigation came from me in the end, so I believe that it is my fault." >intended it or not Flash put up the FOBLGATE logo two days earlier (after acquiring it at some unknown point), between two separate gatherings with Suit, both of which happened within the span of less than a week. Is this information correct? If so, then this adds up perfectly for a sequence of multiple planned events leading up to a planned advertisement. I can't see what else it could mean, since the logo didn't put itself up. So he intentionally puts up the logo, but then his instigation of investment talks wasn't intentional? That's not very credible at all.
Has Flash made an effort to explain this whole sequence of events in detail?
Edit: Ahh my bad, I made a dumb mistake. Gonna put my whole comment in a spoiler, the conclusions are worthless. The gatherings were in June, not July. So the timeline is completely different from what I thought it was.
On July 04 2021 09:17 RWLabs wrote: This is disappointing. I dug around on Ygosu, and it's pretty much impossible to get Flash and others off the hook. For those unaware, there were lots of BJs involved, but the BW ones are Bisu, Flash, Sea, Brittney, and Guemchi. The latter two were already in an unrecoverable image crisis (in short: BDSM jokes about a Korean independence martyr), so I wonder if they're looking for other career avenues. All the sources contain photographic proof, so don't tell me they're hearsay written by angry Korean keyboarders.
2. Flash doesn't regret a goddamn thing There was a recorded conversation between the ex-pros and Suit caught up in this mess. Flash talks about how he and others can recuperate their image to get back to broadcasting. Does this sound like someone who regrets putting their loyal fans' wallets at risk?
3. Hell yes they were paid to advertise the cryptocurrency People seem to be in denial about this, but Suit and the people involved signed a contract that guaranteed some return to the progamers even if the cryptocurrency zeroed out. It's insanity to think Suit would guarantee returns without something in return, the most obvious answer being advertisement. Now why would broadcasters be guaranteed pay and asked to bring up the cryptocurrency on the streams? Why would Flash 'apologize' about the impact his actions would have on the viewers after the truth was found out? I'm legitimately curious what other than a pump and dump scam do some of you think this was.
4. Flash sold out his own mother... Not that this is illegal, but this is really damns Flash's image for me personally. On June 23rd, Flash claimed that his mother put in 200 million Won (~$175,000) after talking with Suit, which is ridiculous for a 28 year old man who makes more in half a year than a common salarymen does in a decade. Of course it's ridiculous, as his future postings (like the one on June 30th in the same link) mysteriously never mention his mother again when the truth about his involvement came out.
5. Flash was the broker beyond the shadow of a doubt Brittney confessed that Flash was the one who did this to start. Remember, Brittney is practically blacklisted due to his previous scandal, and incriminating Flash doesn't make him any less innocent anyhow. Not to mention, Flash's explanation of what happened makes no logical sense. His stance is that he invited popular streamers for drinks, and Suit just happened to call at the right time and joined in, and after some coddling got them on board. First time is maybe a coincidence, but this happened twice when Flash invited other streamers over for drinks. It doesn't take much imagination to see those meetings as being planned well in advance.
TL;DR: They knew exactly what they were doing, and are feigning victimhood to be able to broadcast again.
KCM put it best when he said that these four rose to stardom due to their fans and decided to return the favour with a knife in the back. As a fan of Bisu, I feel a little bad him as he invested a day before the news broke out. That doesn't change the fact that he was smiling at the thought of making millions of Wons off his fans' misery though.
I can't deny that I want to see Bisu and Flash play again, but I hope the fans never forget about this incident.
Thanks for the summary in understandable English, very appreciated. There seems to be a world I don't get, such as trusting a random internet personality with investments I don't really understand myself.
During the Japanese occupation, there was a political activist named Ryu Gwansun. She and other activists on April 1st 1919 shouted "Hurrah for Korean independence!" in a political demonstration, for which she was apprehended by Japanese authorities. Refusing to admit guilt and after months of torture that broke activists older than her, she died at the age of 17. Since then, she became the symbol of Korean independence. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwuB-Y-iqIw In May of this year, Guemchi, Brittney, and two female BJs were jokingly talking about BDSM, and Brittney demonstrated what it would look like to be in a spread eagle pose during BDSM, raising both his hands. He then shouted "Hurrah for Korean Independence!", clearly emulating the political activists. It was already a bit fucky for most viewers at this point, but then Guemchi took it one step further and joked "Are you Ryu Gwansun of 2021?" It wasn't until later in the broadcast they realized how grave the situation was, and apologized.
I admit, Koreans are hyper patriotic and uptight. Go out in Seoul and proclaim loudly that Dokdo is Japanese, and you'll find rational English-speaking Koreans willing to go to jail to beat your ass. Still, it was poor judgment to make a sex joke not only about a heroine in Korean culture, but also an underage one at that. The closest comparison in the West would be someone like Anne Frank, though culturally it wasn't a complete outrage when Family Guy made jokes about her. Maybe a better fit would be Joan of Arc for the French? idk
I was so happy about the ASL reaching an all-time high viewership, the rise of two new talents in Mini and Larva, as well as loads of big name non-Starcraft BJs giving BW a try. But this incident and the Coingate shit really gets me. The aftermath is the accused becoming pariahs, yes, but it also paints a horrid picture of BW progamers and BJs to the general Korean audiences.
I have to admit, if this is so crucifying for Korean culture then I would hate to watch a comedian doing an act in this country.
Hyper-sensitive to put it lightly.
Dumb from Britney, he was having 40K viewers anytime he turned his stream on (even at ungodly hours). That amount of eyeballs can print a lot of money in today's day and age.
It might sound strange, but beside the obvious huge flop of signing contracts with guaranteed return even if said coin takes a dive, I'm mostly angry at Flash for portraying himself as a crypto expert/guru/whatever to his fans. He's an absolutely amazing player, we all know him to be exceptionally smart and that probably translates into a pretty high IQ, but does that give him financial smarts? Even when coupled with a few years of experience in crypto, I'd still say probably not. He basically abused his public image - one that has been exceptionally clean so far, and he DOES appear like a very intelligent person - to get his viewers' trust on financial matters. I might be wrong - he could've given solid financial advice regarding crypto on stream before. Still, as a bunch of people here stated, your StarCraft BJ is not the default expert on that matter until proven otherwise. I have no idea how many people he managed to lure, but I suspect the number is grossly out of proportion to his actual credibility as a crypto trader simply because he has a cult status and he intentionally abused that.
I know this is not the first time in history somebody does stuff like that, but it drives me nuts. I've the utmost respect for Flash as a player and I am a huge fan, but if this leads to afreeca permanently suspending him from streaming, I'll be fine.
On July 04 2021 17:58 TaardadAiel wrote: As opposed to the highly regulated, well standardized, thoroughly peer reviewed job of a video-game player? This means nothing.
We know about one and we don't about the other.
What?
Both are unregulated or formalized in most places or are put together with other jobs that are clearly defined by work law.
Crypto expert is a bullshit title that can't be verified the same way a stocks market trader can today.
the only way i see asl salvaging the situation is ppl like rain, last coming back :c its a shame jaedong is only getting discharged from the army around nov-dec
still, i think theyre locked into astl3 and asl12 at the very least but beyond that things might be looking bleak
My point exactly, someone you know as a very intelligent person goes out on his gaming stream and says he's an expert in crypto, which is unverifiable and is something you know nothing about. People are to blame for trusting him, of course, but he's to blame for abusing his position to lure them to invest in crypto just because he does, with his stature and self-proclaimed expertise in crypto.
Calling yourself a crypto expert in vacuum means nothing. Calling yourself an expert and hoping people would trust you because of your proven talents so you can profit is pretty low IMO.
I guess this is why it's important to figure out how much Flash knew about this scheme ahead of time. If he advertised investing without fully understanding the ramifications, then his level of accountability is lesser than if he knew full well what was presumably going to happen to people's investments. Flash is trying to clear his name off the latter, not the former. Whether or not he did anything wrong at all is no longer the question. He definitely did.
If I understood Korean I'd already be creating a timeline of everything, but as a foreigner I feel too overwhelmed by this.
On July 04 2021 18:13 Ziggy wrote: the only way i see asl salvaging the situation is ppl like rain, last coming back :c its a shame jaedong is only getting discharged from the army around nov-dec
still, i think theyre locked into astl3 and asl12 at the very least but beyond that things might be looking bleak
Flash is in the military so he can't play BW for the next 2 years.
Bisu already announced that he is going to retire from playing tournaments. (before this scandal)
Neither of the remaining streamers really played BW recently in any sort of competitive form.
The only thing that is affected here is the reputation of those guys in a vacuum. If this also damages the game itself from a fan perspective than the intelligence of the Korean BW audience is lower than I expected. (sorry Koreans reading this, no offence).
On July 04 2021 09:17 RWLabs wrote: This is disappointing. I dug around on Ygosu, and it's pretty much impossible to get Flash and others off the hook. For those unaware, there were lots of BJs involved, but the BW ones are Bisu, Flash, Sea, Brittney, and Guemchi. The latter two were already in an unrecoverable image crisis (in short: BDSM jokes about a Korean independence martyr), so I wonder if they're looking for other career avenues. All the sources contain photographic proof, so don't tell me they're hearsay written by angry Korean keyboarders.
2. Flash doesn't regret a goddamn thing There was a recorded conversation between the ex-pros and Suit caught up in this mess. Flash talks about how he and others can recuperate their image to get back to broadcasting. Does this sound like someone who regrets putting their loyal fans' wallets at risk?
3. Hell yes they were paid to advertise the cryptocurrency People seem to be in denial about this, but Suit and the people involved signed a contract that guaranteed some return to the progamers even if the cryptocurrency zeroed out. It's insanity to think Suit would guarantee returns without something in return, the most obvious answer being advertisement. Now why would broadcasters be guaranteed pay and asked to bring up the cryptocurrency on the streams? Why would Flash 'apologize' about the impact his actions would have on the viewers after the truth was found out? I'm legitimately curious what other than a pump and dump scam do some of you think this was.
4. Flash sold out his own mother... Not that this is illegal, but this is really damns Flash's image for me personally. On June 23rd, Flash claimed that his mother put in 200 million Won (~$175,000) after talking with Suit, which is ridiculous for a 28 year old man who makes more in half a year than a common salarymen does in a decade. Of course it's ridiculous, as his future postings (like the one on June 30th in the same link) mysteriously never mention his mother again when the truth about his involvement came out.
5. Flash was the broker beyond the shadow of a doubt Brittney confessed that Flash was the one who did this to start. Remember, Brittney is practically blacklisted due to his previous scandal, and incriminating Flash doesn't make him any less innocent anyhow. Not to mention, Flash's explanation of what happened makes no logical sense. His stance is that he invited popular streamers for drinks, and Suit just happened to call at the right time and joined in, and after some coddling got them on board. First time is maybe a coincidence, but this happened twice when Flash invited other streamers over for drinks. It doesn't take much imagination to see those meetings as being planned well in advance.
TL;DR: They knew exactly what they were doing, and are feigning victimhood to be able to broadcast again.
KCM put it best when he said that these four rose to stardom due to their fans and decided to return the favour with a knife in the back. As a fan of Bisu, I feel a little bad him as he invested a day before the news broke out. That doesn't change the fact that he was smiling at the thought of making millions of Wons off his fans' misery though.
I can't deny that I want to see Bisu and Flash play again, but I hope the fans never forget about this incident.
Ok finally someone explained this situation in more detail. This definitely makes it worse for Flash, but as Jinjin said this is still one side of the story and ygosu can be very sensationalized? I don't think Flash actually intended for things to turn out this way, and it could have been a horrible lapse of judgment.
Let's see if he comes up with any further statements.
out of curiosity, what is korea's favourite cesspool ilbe think of the whole situation? my korean isn't too great to get a full picture of their discussion.
The allegation that this was a scam designed to rip off afreeca fans is a serious claim that needs proof. As far as I can tell there is still no evidence that this was a pump and dump scheme. Someone creating a new crypto (there are many out there) and essentially paying streamers to advertise it is not proof of anything besides the crypto creator wanting to get the word out on this new coin.
Who was in the know? just Flash and Suit? or were the other streamers also in on the scam? I assume the latter since Bisu is also getting hammered here like he knew this would hurt his fans. Unless someone spills the beans and reveals conversations they had with Flash and Suit about the true nature of this coin then I'm going to disregard this scam talk as an internet witch hunt.
And what was the plan really? All these streamers are going to push their communities into this coin and then dump it for big profits and no one is going to notice? really? all this money loss and anger in their chats after this crypto they've been advertising bombs and no one is going to connect the dots to suit and the others? A pretty stupid plan if you ask me.
Here is what Flash is guilty of:
Not disclosing the deal he and the others had with Suit and essentially doing a secret advertisement. Terrible backtracking apologies where he tries to hide behind his mother.
These are really bad and deserve harsh criticism but the scam allegation is on a whole other level of bad and cannot just be assumed to be true.
On July 04 2021 09:17 RWLabs wrote: This is disappointing. I dug around on Ygosu, and it's pretty much impossible to get Flash and others off the hook. For those unaware, there were lots of BJs involved, but the BW ones are Bisu, Flash, Sea, Brittney, and Guemchi. The latter two were already in an unrecoverable image crisis (in short: BDSM jokes about a Korean independence martyr), so I wonder if they're looking for other career avenues. All the sources contain photographic proof, so don't tell me they're hearsay written by angry Korean keyboarders.
2. Flash doesn't regret a goddamn thing There was a recorded conversation between the ex-pros and Suit caught up in this mess. Flash talks about how he and others can recuperate their image to get back to broadcasting. Does this sound like someone who regrets putting their loyal fans' wallets at risk?
3. Hell yes they were paid to advertise the cryptocurrency People seem to be in denial about this, but Suit and the people involved signed a contract that guaranteed some return to the progamers even if the cryptocurrency zeroed out. It's insanity to think Suit would guarantee returns without something in return, the most obvious answer being advertisement. Now why would broadcasters be guaranteed pay and asked to bring up the cryptocurrency on the streams? Why would Flash 'apologize' about the impact his actions would have on the viewers after the truth was found out? I'm legitimately curious what other than a pump and dump scam do some of you think this was.
4. Flash sold out his own mother... Not that this is illegal, but this is really damns Flash's image for me personally. On June 23rd, Flash claimed that his mother put in 200 million Won (~$175,000) after talking with Suit, which is ridiculous for a 28 year old man who makes more in half a year than a common salarymen does in a decade. Of course it's ridiculous, as his future postings (like the one on June 30th in the same link) mysteriously never mention his mother again when the truth about his involvement came out.
5. Flash was the broker beyond the shadow of a doubt Brittney confessed that Flash was the one who did this to start. Remember, Brittney is practically blacklisted due to his previous scandal, and incriminating Flash doesn't make him any less innocent anyhow. Not to mention, Flash's explanation of what happened makes no logical sense. His stance is that he invited popular streamers for drinks, and Suit just happened to call at the right time and joined in, and after some coddling got them on board. First time is maybe a coincidence, but this happened twice when Flash invited other streamers over for drinks. It doesn't take much imagination to see those meetings as being planned well in advance.
TL;DR: They knew exactly what they were doing, and are feigning victimhood to be able to broadcast again.
KCM put it best when he said that these four rose to stardom due to their fans and decided to return the favour with a knife in the back. As a fan of Bisu, I feel a little bad him as he invested a day before the news broke out. That doesn't change the fact that he was smiling at the thought of making millions of Wons off his fans' misery though.
I can't deny that I want to see Bisu and Flash play again, but I hope the fans never forget about this incident.
Ok as a Korean speaker who's actually listened to both the ~30min tape recording and the ~1hr tape recording and have a better understanding of the context of the points made above, I feel like I have some duty to provide more insight on this. For the record, I'm not going out of my way to defend people because I'm some blind fan. I honestly couldn't care less what happens to Flash, and though I have a bias for Bisu he's hardly big fish at the moment. I will admit I am reserving judgment for far longer than I usually would but that's partially because I've watched the streams of most of the people involved and I find their alleged involvement in this "conspiracy" to be out of character, and therefore am waiting for more facts to come to light.
As jinjin pointed out, ygosu is hardly a good place to find factual information. It is on the level of 4chan for gutter trash and the points above are evidence of that. Selectively taking single quotes from a 30min discussion and presenting it out of context to interpret it in a way that fits their agenda is hardly credible information.
1. The point about Flash being a financial advisor automatically meaning that Flash had extensive knowledge of the scheme is pretty weak. His appointment as a financial advisor is laughable and more likely to be a marketing stunt than him actually having the financial expertise to advise any organisation about investment.
2. Suit asking why the streamers signed the contract is in response to mainly Britney asking Suit to immediately return the invested funds to them because they can no longer be affiliated with the coin if they want to have any hope of reviving their streaming careers. Suit is essentially explaining to them that returning their funds and dumping the entire project isn't that simple as he has obligations to other shareholders (non public figures) that have been with him for up to 3 years. The context around the quote highlighted in RWlabs' post is literally this "if you were going to ask for all your money back the moment anything went to shit then why did you make the investment?" Suit was essentially calling the streamers out for thinking they can make an investment with absolutely zero risk, which isn't the case.
3. Flash talking about what it would take for him and others to return to streaming is brought up in the 30min conversation. Extracting a single quote from that and saying "the streamers don't have any remorse for what happened" is just straight up trying to make them look shit and twisting their words. The context of the first quote is that despite everything that happened, Suit and his original group of investors that have been with the project for far longer than the streamers still wish for the project to go ahead and launch. Suit points out that despite the bad PR the original team still believes in the project and wish for it to go ahead. A conflict of interest is now apparent between Suit and the streamers and the streamers say that for them to even think about returning to streaming the entire project must be dumped altogether. Suit asks "Are you 100% sure your viewers would forgive you?" and Flash replies "I think we would at least be able to stream again." As for the second quote, the context is basically that these streamers and Suit have met up to have an honest discussion about what to do moving forward and the current consensus is that the negative PR has put them in a no-win situation. Streaming is their entire life at this point and Flash simply brings up the issue of whether they'd even be able to return to streaming and with what image that would be. As for Suit his hopes are still to proceed with the project as it has been a business development years in the making and with the current shitstorm he's in a position where he can't back out but can't move forward either.
4. Hell yes they were paid to advertise the cryptocurrency. Now this is straight up false or at the very least twisting things in the worst way possible. None of the streamers present for the tape recording were paid to advertise the coin. Suit even asks "Did I ever ask any of you to advertise the coin?", to which no one responds. There's also a key piece of information that is revealed in the recording (first time I heard of it at least), which is that the guarantee is only effective if the coin fails to go to market. If the coin does go to market, then the initial investment is not guaranteed. The key conclusion then is that the streamers did not enter into a risk free investment; whether or not they understood this risk is another issue.
5. Currently there's no evidence to suggest that Flash's claim that he consulted with his mother isn't true. Flash claimed that due to him being in the military base Suit discussed with his mother about investing and after consultation with his mother, they decided to invest because Suit made a good impression on his mum. There's no new evidence to suggest that this never happened.
6. Flash was the broker beyond the shadow of a doubt Britney says in his video that he honestly suspected not just Flash, but everyone, of being a party to this "scheme". He does however go onto say in the same video as RWLab's link that Flash was not a broker. Whilst it is true that Flash first introduced him to this particular coin investment, Britney's position on this is consistent with Flash's announcement about why he got Britney involved. Britney therefore was very careful about revealing the fact that Flash introduced him because his chat was filled with "Who was the broker?" questions and looking for a target, and therefore would make Flash look complicit when in fact Flash was not on the same page as Suit and did not act as a broker.
Honestly, RWLabs' post is a whole heap of tabloid-level shit that doesn't help to present the facts of the scandal. If anyone's actually listened to the tape recordings (I've only listened to 2 out of apparently 3 that are supposed to have been revealed), the only thing we can be certain of is that this whole scandal reeks of gross incompetence and ignorance from all parties involved. However, unless you want to make the assumption that all the recordings are scripted and everyone is acting, it's also pretty clear that the streamers had no idea about the coin being potentially perceived as a pump and dump scheme.
Whether Suit knew and is now trying to control the situation or whether he was just hugely incompetent is still hard to judge. His general stance throughout the recordings I've heard is that this was a legitimate business idea that had been in development for years, and that his initial group of investors still want to proceed with this idea. This may involve a complete rebranding but dumping the entire project altogether is not something he wishes to do because he obviously has other obligations to shareholders other than the streamers. The involvement of the streamers was simply because he was a fan of the streamers and the continued association with them led to one thing after another. He cannot return the streamers' investments because the contract forbids it, however because he was a fan of the streamers he has personally guaranteed their investment being refunded to them.
Judging from one of the recordings I listened to it seems like Bisu has already been refunded his investment out of Suit's pocket, however Suit doesn't have the cash available to immediately reimburse all the streamers and therefore there are streamers still waiting for their money back. The idea is that Suit will personally reimburse everyone and effectively buy everyone's TOcoin share.
What is clear to me at least is that Flash included, all the streamers are clueless about finance or even about basic contract and commercial law. Britney in particular was hard to listen to because he was just ranting about why he couldn't get his investment back when his contract forbid it. All they care about now is doing whatever it takes to restore their reputation to a point that allows them to return to streaming, which is the only thing they have going for them. Unfortunately the witchhunt is still in effect and their viewers are not taking into consideration whether there was malice, whether anyone actually incurred losses or whether it is even plausible that Suit's venture was legitimate. As for the poor professional work on Suit's side, whilst it is inexcusable for someone handling a project with this much capital to be so shit at what they do, I'm personally not that skeptical because anyone who knows Korean culture understands that Suit isn't unique in acting like this if you're from a startup. Proper admin work is extremely inefficient, time consuming and quite frankly expensive, which is why many SMEs simply do not have administrative work up to scratch, including even contracts. It's why despite the huge advancements in living standards, tech, economy etc. in Korea it's so easy to get scammed still. Many people simply have a poor understanding of contract and commercial law and handshake deals and "trust" is still a huge factor in business particularly in the SME level.
edit: added this part from my next post for cleaner summary To make one final point, to me this entire problem still stems from the fact that viewers are crucifying them for what could have happened in the worst case scenario. However the fact is that what the viewers are criticising them for did not happen and therefore to make the claim that the streamers were definitely involved in an illegal scheme that would have ended up with some viewers losing a lot of money is ludicrous. It is entirely possible that in the best case scenario, this scandal didn't blow up, Suit's venture is fairly successful, and the streamers' investments remained confidential for a long time. In this scenario people would win or lose depending on when they entered and exited but it would have nothing to do with a pump and dump and it would just be a normal investment like any other, where each bore the risk of their own. At this point it's pretty much impossible to prove one or the other which in a sensible world would mean "innocent until proven guilty" and everyone goes on with their lives; no harm done. It's gutter trash sites like ygosu, dc, afreeca chat, youtube commenters and youtube journalists continuing to fuel this when if they all just dropped it, it wouldn't make any difference to their lives.
On July 04 2021 19:48 Levque wrote: The allegation that this was a scam designed to rip off afreeca fans is a serious claim that needs proof. As far as I can tell there is still no evidence that this was a pump and dump scheme. Someone creating a new crypto (there are many out there) and essentially paying streamers to advertise it is not proof of anything besides the crypto creator wanting to get the word out on this new coin.
Who was in the know? just Flash and Suit? or were the other streamers also in on the scam? I assume the latter since Bisu is also getting hammered here like he knew this would hurt his fans. Unless someone spills the beans and reveals conversations they had with Flash and Suit about the true nature of this coin then I'm going to disregard this scam talk as an internet witch hunt.
And what was the plan really? All these streamers are going to push their communities into this coin and then dump it for big profits and no one is going to notice? really? all this money loss and anger in their chats after this crypto they've been advertising bombs and no one is going to connect the dots to suit and the others? A pretty stupid plan.
Here is what Flash is guilty of:
Not disclosing the deal he and the others had with Suit and essentially doing a secret advertisement. Terrible backtracking apologies where he tries to hide behind his mother.
These are really bad and deserve harsh criticism but the scam allegation is on a whole other level of bad and cannot just be assumed to be true.
i like how u call it a "scam" when technically it isn't. this is essentially what whiteknights and fanboys are banking on, since there will unlikely to be a police investigation to interrogate suspects and seize documents to uncover the full picture.
so they can continue to maintain a kind of reductio ad absurdum that flash is simply completely naive, zero notion of what hes doing and utterly hoodwinked by suit into following whatever he tells him to do.
On July 04 2021 19:48 Levque wrote: The allegation that this was a scam designed to rip off afreeca fans is a serious claim that needs proof. As far as I can tell there is still no evidence that this was a pump and dump scheme. Someone creating a new crypto (there are many out there) and essentially paying streamers to advertise it is not proof of anything besides the crypto creator wanting to get the word out on this new coin.
Who was in the know? just Flash and Suit? or were the other streamers also in on the scam? I assume the latter since Bisu is also getting hammered here like he knew this would hurt his fans. Unless someone spills the beans and reveals conversations they had with Flash and Suit about the true nature of this coin then I'm going to disregard this scam talk as an internet witch hunt.
And what was the plan really? All these streamers are going to push their communities into this coin and then dump it for big profits and no one is going to notice? really? all this money loss and anger in their chats after this crypto they've been advertising bombs and no one is going to connect the dots to suit and the others? A pretty stupid plan.
Here is what Flash is guilty of:
Not disclosing the deal he and the others had with Suit and essentially doing a secret advertisement. Terrible backtracking apologies where he tries to hide behind his mother.
These are really bad and deserve harsh criticism but the scam allegation is on a whole other level of bad and cannot just be assumed to be true.
i like how u call it a "scam" when technically it isn't. this is essentially what whiteknights and fanboys are banking on, since there will unlikely to be a police investigation to interrogate suspects and seize documents to uncover the full picture.
so they can continue to maintain a kind of reductio ad absurdum that flash is simply completely naive, zero notion of what hes doing and utterly hoodwinked by suit into following whatever he tells him to do.
I'm not a "fanboy" of Flash, I never root for him. I'm just interested in the truth.
edit: Left this post because it contains the part which nazgul refers to in his post below (now bolded) To make one final point, to me this entire problem still stems from the fact that viewers are crucifying them for what could have happened in the worst case scenario. However the fact is that what the viewers are criticising them for did not happen and therefore to make the claim that the streamers were definitely involved in an illegal scheme that would have ended up with some viewers losing a lot of money is ludicrous. It is entirely possible that in the best case scenario, this scandal didn't blow up, Suit's venture is fairly successful, and the streamers' investments remained confidential for a long time. In this scenario people would win or lose depending on when they entered and exited but it would have nothing to do with a pump and dump and it would just be a normal investment like any other, where each bore the risk of their own. At this point it's pretty much impossible to prove one or the other which in a sensible world would mean "innocent until proven guilty" and everyone goes on with their lives; no harm done. It's gutter trash sites like ygosu, dc, afreeca chat, youtube commenters and youtube journalists continuing to fuel this when if they all just dropped it, it wouldn't make any difference to their lives.
On July 04 2021 09:17 RWLabs wrote: This is disappointing. I dug around on Ygosu, and it's pretty much impossible to get Flash and others off the hook. For those unaware, there were lots of BJs involved, but the BW ones are Bisu, Flash, Sea, Brittney, and Guemchi. The latter two were already in an unrecoverable image crisis (in short: BDSM jokes about a Korean independence martyr), so I wonder if they're looking for other career avenues. All the sources contain photographic proof, so don't tell me they're hearsay written by angry Korean keyboarders.
2. Flash doesn't regret a goddamn thing There was a recorded conversation between the ex-pros and Suit caught up in this mess. Flash talks about how he and others can recuperate their image to get back to broadcasting. Does this sound like someone who regrets putting their loyal fans' wallets at risk?
3. Hell yes they were paid to advertise the cryptocurrency People seem to be in denial about this, but Suit and the people involved signed a contract that guaranteed some return to the progamers even if the cryptocurrency zeroed out. It's insanity to think Suit would guarantee returns without something in return, the most obvious answer being advertisement. Now why would broadcasters be guaranteed pay and asked to bring up the cryptocurrency on the streams? Why would Flash 'apologize' about the impact his actions would have on the viewers after the truth was found out? I'm legitimately curious what other than a pump and dump scam do some of you think this was.
4. Flash sold out his own mother... Not that this is illegal, but this is really damns Flash's image for me personally. On June 23rd, Flash claimed that his mother put in 200 million Won (~$175,000) after talking with Suit, which is ridiculous for a 28 year old man who makes more in half a year than a common salarymen does in a decade. Of course it's ridiculous, as his future postings (like the one on June 30th in the same link) mysteriously never mention his mother again when the truth about his involvement came out.
5. Flash was the broker beyond the shadow of a doubt Brittney confessed that Flash was the one who did this to start. Remember, Brittney is practically blacklisted due to his previous scandal, and incriminating Flash doesn't make him any less innocent anyhow. Not to mention, Flash's explanation of what happened makes no logical sense. His stance is that he invited popular streamers for drinks, and Suit just happened to call at the right time and joined in, and after some coddling got them on board. First time is maybe a coincidence, but this happened twice when Flash invited other streamers over for drinks. It doesn't take much imagination to see those meetings as being planned well in advance.
TL;DR: They knew exactly what they were doing, and are feigning victimhood to be able to broadcast again.
KCM put it best when he said that these four rose to stardom due to their fans and decided to return the favour with a knife in the back. As a fan of Bisu, I feel a little bad him as he invested a day before the news broke out. That doesn't change the fact that he was smiling at the thought of making millions of Wons off his fans' misery though.
I can't deny that I want to see Bisu and Flash play again, but I hope the fans never forget about this incident.
Ok as a Korean speaker who's actually listened to both the ~30min tape recording and the ~1hr tape recording and have a better understanding of the context of the points made above, I feel like I have some duty to provide more insight on this. For the record, I'm not going out of my way to defend people because I'm some blind fan. I honestly couldn't care less what happens to Flash, and though I have a bias for Bisu he's hardly big fish at the moment. I will admit I am reserving judgment for far longer than I usually would but that's partially because I've watched the streams of most of the people involved and I find their alleged involvement in this "conspiracy" to be out of character, and therefore am waiting for more facts to come to light. As jinjin pointed out, ygosu is hardly a good place to find factual information. It is on the level of 4chan for gutter trash and the points above are evidence of that. Taking single quotes from a 30min discussion and taking it out of context to interpret it in a way that fits their agenda is hardly credible information. 1. The point about Flash being a financial advisor automatically meaning that Flash had extensive knowledge of the scheme is pretty weak. His appointment as a financial advisor is laughable and more likely to be a marketing stunt than him actually having the financial expertise to advise any organisation about investment. 2. Suit asking why the streamers signed the contract is in response to mainly Britney asking Suit to immediately return the invested funds to them because they can no longer be affiliated with the coin if they want to have any hope of reviving their streaming careers. Suit is essentially explaining to them that returning their funds and dumping the entire project isn't that simple as he has obligations to other shareholders (non public figures) that have been with him for up to 3 years. The context around the quote highlighted in RWlabs' post is literally this "if you were going to ask for all your money back the moment anything went to shit then why did you make the investment?" Suit was essentially calling the streamers out for thinking they can make an investment with absolutely zero risk, which isn't the case. 3. Flash talking about what it would take for him and others to return to streaming is brought up in the 30min conversation. Extracting a single quote from that and saying "the streamers don't have any remorse for what happened" is just straight up trying to make them look shit and twisting their words. The context of the first quote is that despite everything that happened, Suit and his original group of investors that have been with the project for far longer than the streamers still wish for the project to go ahead and launch. Suit points out that despite the bad PR the original team still believes in the project and wish for it to go ahead. A conflict of interest is now apparent between Suit and the streamers and the streamers say that for them to even think about returning to streaming the entire project must be dumped altogether. Suit asks "Are you 100% sure your viewers would forgive you?" and Flash replies "I think we would at least be able to stream again." As for the second quote, the context is basically that these streamers and Suit have met up to have an honest discussion about what to do moving forward and the current consensus is that the negative PR has put them in a no-win situation. Streaming is their entire life at this point and Flash simply brings up the issue of whether they'd even be able to return to streaming and with what image that would be. As for Suit his hopes are still to proceed with the project as it has been a business development years in the making and with the current shitstorm he's in a position where he can't back out but can't move forward either. 4. Hell yes they were paid to advertise the cryptocurrency. Now this is straight up false or at the very least twisting things in the worst way possible. None of the streamers present for the tape recording were paid to advertise the coin. Suit even asks "Did I ever ask any of you to advertise the coin?", to which no one responds. There's also a key piece of information that is revealed in the recording (first time I heard of it at least), which is that the guarantee is only effective if the coin fails to go to market. If the coin does go to market, then the initial investment is not guaranteed. The key conclusion then is that the streamers did not enter into a risk free investment; whether or not they understood this risk is another issue. 5. Currently there's no evidence to suggest that Flash's claim that he consulted with his mother isn't true. Flash claimed that due to him being in the military base Suit discussed with his mother about investing and after consultation with his mother, they decided to invest because Suit made a good impression on his mum. There's no new evidence to suggest that this never happened. 6. Flash was the broker beyond the shadow of a doubt Britney says in his video that he honestly suspected not just Flash, but everyone, of being a party to this "scheme". He does however go onto say in the same video as RWLab's link that Flash was not a broker. Whilst it is true that Flash first introduced him to this particular coin investment, Britney's position on this is consistent with Flash's announcement about why he got Britney involved. Britney therefore was very careful about revealing the fact that Flash introduced him because his chat was filled with "Who was the broker?" questions and looking for a target, and therefore would make Flash look complicit when in fact Flash was not on the same page as Suit and did not act as a broker.
Honestly, RWLabs' post is a whole heap of tabloid-level shit that doesn't help to present the facts of the scandal. If anyone's actually listened to the tape recordings (I've only listened to 2 out of apparently 3 that are supposed to have been revealed), the only thing we can be certain of is that this whole scandal reeks of gross incompetence and ignorance from all parties involved. However, unless you want to make the assumption that all the recordings are scripted and everyone is acting, it's also pretty clear that the streamers had no idea about the coin being potentially perceived as a pump and dump scheme. Whether Suit knew and is now trying to control the situation or whether he was just hugely incompetent is still hard to judge. His general stance throughout the recordings I've heard is that this was a legitimate business idea that had been in development for years, and that his initial group of investors still want to proceed with this idea. This may involve a complete rebranding but dumping the entire project altogether is not something he wishes to do because he obviously has other obligations to shareholders other than the streamers. The involvement of the streamers was simply because he was a fan of the streamers and the continued association with them led to one thing after another. He cannot return the streamers' investments because the contract forbids it, however because he was a fan of the streamers he has personally guaranteed their investment being refunded to them. Judging from one of the recordings I listened to it seems like Bisu has already been refunded his investment out of Suit's pocket, however Suit doesn't have the cash available to immediately reimburse all the streamers and therefore there are streamers still waiting for their money back. The idea is that Suit will personally reimburse everyone and effectively buy everyone's TOcoin share. What is clear to me at least is that Flash included, all the streamers are clueless about finance or even about basic contract and commercial law. Britney in particular was hard to listen to because he was just ranting about why he couldn't get his investment back when his contract forbid it. All they care about now is doing whatever it takes to restore their reputation to a point that allows them to return to streaming, which is the only thing they have going for them. Unfortunately the witchhunt is still in effect and their viewers are not taking into consideration whether there was malice, whether anyone actually incurred losses or whether it is even plausible that Suit's venture was legitimate. As for the poor professional work on Suit's side, whilst it is inexcusable for someone handling a project with this much capital to be so shit at what they do, I'm personally not that skeptical because anyone who knows Korean culture understands that Suit isn't unique in acting like this if you're from a startup. Proper admin work is extremely inefficient, time consuming and quite frankly expensive, which is why many SMEs simply do not have administrative work up to scratch, including even contracts. It's why despite the huge advancements in living standards, tech, economy etc. in Korea it's so easy to get scammed still. Many people simply have a poor understanding of contract and commercial law and handshake deals and "trust" is still a huge factor in business particularly in the SME level.
Thanks for this, if what you said is true then it's pretty irresponsible from RWlab's point of view to highlight the worst information and present it in such a way to us English speakers who have no clue what is going on. I get the feeling the general Korean community is doing the same. Seeing that Jinjin mentioned ygosu as a tabloid site I'm inclined to give a benefit of a doubt.
Of course there's still alot of information not available and everyone should withold judgement until then.
As far as I can tell we are all free to conclude Flash has been irresponsible and did not treat his own reputation, as well as his fans, with the respect it deserves. This is something he will have to live with for the rest of his life no matter what. Speaking for myself it is definitely disappointing to hear he had this level of involvement and wasn't disclosing it. That is inexcusable and unacceptable.
That said, the above still leaves room for being an irresponsible idiot, who believed in a coin (that he should never have touched) and was just doing his best to see said coin succeed. Like the poster above me said, based on the info provided, there still was a potential path here for this just to be a successful venture and not a scam with everyone jumping ship.
None of the above is the same as being a scam artist or justifies even being mentioned in the same breath as Savior or FaZe Kay.
It is possible that further information comes out that does put him in that territory. For example if it turns out he was always intending to just create hype with fellow progamers and then immediately sell himself (ala FaZe Kay) that would change everything. However, so far that hasn't come up anywhere to my knowledge.
These YGosu points above are a bit nonsensical for the most part. The idea that you can't have genuine remorse and at the same time discuss recuperating your image in a private conversation is just silly. Those two points are not at all mutually exclusive and I have found myself plenty of times talking internally, in a variety of contexts and settings, about image in order to get people 'to do the right thing'. The point about his mother seems straightup hateful.
All in all it is totally justified if your respect for Flash goes down a few notches, but let's hold off a bit before calling him a criminal with ill intent. We need more info for that, which is currently not being provided yet as far as I can see. The problem with a situation like this is that when you try to bring balance to the argument it is seen as defending him when it really shouldn't be. Not all bad actions are equal and we owe it to ourselves to objectively discuss exactly how bad something is.
Take a break evilfatsh1t, I don't get how it is possible to continue to defend Flash and other streamers at this point. It is despicable behaviour to take advantage of your fans and viewers in this way, yet here you are again defending such behaviour.
On July 04 2021 20:54 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Take a break evilfatsh1t, I don't get how it is possible to continue to defend Flash and other streamers at this point. It is despicable behaviour to take advantage of your fans and viewers in this way, yet here you are again defending such behaviour.
well nazgul literally pointed it out a few minutes before you made your post. im not defending him because im being a fanboy, im simply not accusing him of what you are because theres no evidence to support your accusation. even after all the posts in this thread you still stick to your line that flash took advantage of his viewers and tried to profit from their losses, yet theres not a shred of evidence that definitively backs your claim. i could ask you just the same to take a break. i dont get how its possible to continue to try and put their heads on a stick when its pretty clear that they were just stupid, not malicious.
There should be a formal investigation into this, right now it looks like these guys are getting their careers cancelled over speculations on something people wrote online. I get that many things point to Flash and others messing up, but still they deserve to be treated "innocent until proven guilty". Imagine a celebrity is accused of sexual assault because of something people typed in Twitch chat or on Reddit. Right now everybody has a different interpretation of what happened and "facts" taken from internet forums are being thrown in the mix. It's ridiculous. Afreeca and whatever relevant authorities to the matter that there are should open an official investigation instead of this lynching.
Given all the information posted in this thread I think evilfatsh1t's reply to RWLabs and Nazgal's summary are the most important posts in this thread.
The truth is most likely somewhere in the middle, like it often is.
Unfortunately for the bloodthirsty 'fans', this witchhunt doesn't have a any legs and will most likely wane as time goes on. The irreparable damage is the reputation of the streamers and probably some serious money lost for Suit and his investors.
On July 04 2021 20:54 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Take a break evilfatsh1t, I don't get how it is possible to continue to defend Flash and other streamers at this point. It is despicable behaviour to take advantage of your fans and viewers in this way, yet here you are again defending such behaviour.
I know you are replying to him but for me that followed this case fairly closely, I'm more of on side that was discouraged by their initial and follow up response rather than whole crypto investment thing. The fact that their initial announcements and them dealing with the increasing amount of pressure has been disappointing, with both bisu and flash lying with their initial response or just didnt think at all.
People can make mistakes or not suspect every side of how their actions may be perceived. They are people like us that can go into things without knowing all that much and get burned for it. And i dont think these guys are type to throw their legacy away to scam anyway, since they've always cared very much of their image (flash/bisu).However, their reaction to imminent backlash and their handling of case has been dropping their image a fair bit at least in my eyes, and have harmed them more than any good really.
I dont think this incident is anywhere as big as ygosu/fmkorea/ dcinside/tabloid news websites are making it seem, but i am extremely dissapointed by their response towards it. But it doesnt matter what I think really, but general public.
Once the incident fires down a little, maybe there will be a more retrospective look into this. But right now as it stands, public image is extremely bad on them with caster KCM calling flash worse than saviOr (I felt was bit much for current informations). But this is how it really is currently
Thanks to the translators bringing this information to light, especially evilfatsh1t for rebuking possibly incorrect facts, which seem to have been taken as gospel judging by the stickying of RWlabs post.
I would reserve judgement until we know more about this. I am hoping that this Suit character was a predator and groomed the opportunistic and naive streamers.
The point that stands out most from evilfatsh1t's post is that Suit never asked the streamers to advertise the coins. Isn't it possible then that the streamers were merely cash cows that Suit used to fundraise for his and his shareholders' coin project?
From what we know about Suit, he donated to the streamers to groom them, and by doing this, gained access to more streamers. Flash happened to be the first one he convinced.
On July 04 2021 21:13 oxKnu wrote: Given all the information posted in this thread I think evilfatsh1t's reply to RWLabs and Nazgal's summary are the most important posts in this thread.
The truth is most likely somewhere in the middle, like it often is.
Unfortunately for the bloodthirsty 'fans', this witchhunt doesn't have a any legs and will most likely wane as time goes on. The irreparable damage is the reputation of the streamers and probably some serious money lost for Suit and his investors.
A hard lesson learned for both parties.
yes good points, I searched for their posts after reading your comments.
On July 04 2021 21:16 jinjin5000 wrote: Once the incident fires down a little, maybe there will be a more retrospective look into this. But right now as it stands, public image is extremely bad on them with caster KCM calling flash worse than saviOr (I felt was bit much for current informations). But this is how it really is currently
This I think is quite an important point. KCM is a hugely impactful figure in the scene and he should be inclined to give benefit of the doubt to players like Flash who are of a similar status as he is. I mean, everyone deserves benefit of the doubt, but even more so from high profile figures, since they're all big bold targets for allegations. If KCM was in that same situation, he wouldn't want Flash to immediately disown him either.
Also big thanks to evilfatsh1t for adding your take to the conversation! Thanks to you and others who translate things for us, we may eventually get to the bottom of this after all.
evilfatsh1t post deserves a highlight more than RWLabs post imo.
RWLabs post was informative but also very speculative, I dont really find his conclusions convincing.
The bit, if true (aka they weren't acting), about Suit never asking the streamers to advertise the coin is huge. I wonder why the Korean community doesn't take that into account.
On July 04 2021 11:11 LinYu_roy wrote: I get your point, which is a good one.
I guess what I tried to say is that, investing your life savings is different from selecting sodas or shopping T-shirts, you have to always do your own due diligence. You cannot outsource thinking on such matters to others, not your neighbors, not your brothers, let alone some streamers.
On July 04 2021 12:14 BigFan wrote: Either way, I'm not expecting any of them to stream BW any time soon, if ever. Is it possible to get more details about what Brittney and GuemChi spoke about regarding that martyr?
Note that this is a both off topic and morbid, so read at your own discretion.
During the Japanese occupation, there was a political activist named Ryu Gwansun. She and other activists on April 1st 1919 shouted "Hurrah for Korean independence!" in a political demonstration, for which she was apprehended by Japanese authorities. Refusing to admit guilt and after months of torture that broke activists older than her, she died at the age of 17. Since then, she became the symbol of Korean independence. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwuB-Y-iqIw In May of this year, Guemchi, Brittney, and two female BJs were jokingly talking about BDSM, and Brittney demonstrated what it would look like to be in a spread eagle pose during BDSM, raising both his hands. He then shouted "Hurrah for Korean Independence!", clearly emulating the political activists. It was already a bit fucky for most viewers at this point, but then Guemchi took it one step further and joked "Are you Ryu Gwansun of 2021?" It wasn't until later in the broadcast they realized how grave the situation was, and apologized.
I admit, Koreans are hyper patriotic and uptight. Go out in Seoul and proclaim loudly that Dokdo is Japanese, and you'll find rational English-speaking Koreans willing to go to jail to beat your ass. Still, it was poor judgment to make a sex joke not only about a heroine in Korean culture, but also an underage one at that. The closest comparison in the West would be someone like Anne Frank, though culturally it wasn't a complete outrage when Family Guy made jokes about her. Maybe a better fit would be Joan of Arc for the French? idk
I was so happy about the ASL reaching an all-time high viewership, the rise of two new talents in Mini and Larva, as well as loads of big name non-Starcraft BJs giving BW a try. But this incident and the Coingate shit really gets me. The aftermath is the accused becoming pariahs, yes, but it also paints a horrid picture of BW progamers and BJs to the general Korean audiences.
Thanks for sharing this offtopic tidbit. It's kinda baffling that they would even touch such a topic and risk being blacklisted, but then again, maybe they didn't think this through.
On July 04 2021 09:17 RWLabs wrote: This is disappointing. I dug around on Ygosu, and it's pretty much impossible to get Flash and others off the hook. For those unaware, there were lots of BJs involved, but the BW ones are Bisu, Flash, Sea, Brittney, and Guemchi. The latter two were already in an unrecoverable image crisis (in short: BDSM jokes about a Korean independence martyr), so I wonder if they're looking for other career avenues. All the sources contain photographic proof, so don't tell me they're hearsay written by angry Korean keyboarders.
2. Flash doesn't regret a goddamn thing There was a recorded conversation between the ex-pros and Suit caught up in this mess. Flash talks about how he and others can recuperate their image to get back to broadcasting. Does this sound like someone who regrets putting their loyal fans' wallets at risk?
3. Hell yes they were paid to advertise the cryptocurrency People seem to be in denial about this, but Suit and the people involved signed a contract that guaranteed some return to the progamers even if the cryptocurrency zeroed out. It's insanity to think Suit would guarantee returns without something in return, the most obvious answer being advertisement. Now why would broadcasters be guaranteed pay and asked to bring up the cryptocurrency on the streams? Why would Flash 'apologize' about the impact his actions would have on the viewers after the truth was found out? I'm legitimately curious what other than a pump and dump scam do some of you think this was.
4. Flash sold out his own mother... Not that this is illegal, but this is really damns Flash's image for me personally. On June 23rd, Flash claimed that his mother put in 200 million Won (~$175,000) after talking with Suit, which is ridiculous for a 28 year old man who makes more in half a year than a common salarymen does in a decade. Of course it's ridiculous, as his future postings (like the one on June 30th in the same link) mysteriously never mention his mother again when the truth about his involvement came out.
5. Flash was the broker beyond the shadow of a doubt Brittney confessed that Flash was the one who did this to start. Remember, Brittney is practically blacklisted due to his previous scandal, and incriminating Flash doesn't make him any less innocent anyhow. Not to mention, Flash's explanation of what happened makes no logical sense. His stance is that he invited popular streamers for drinks, and Suit just happened to call at the right time and joined in, and after some coddling got them on board. First time is maybe a coincidence, but this happened twice when Flash invited other streamers over for drinks. It doesn't take much imagination to see those meetings as being planned well in advance.
TL;DR: They knew exactly what they were doing, and are feigning victimhood to be able to broadcast again.
KCM put it best when he said that these four rose to stardom due to their fans and decided to return the favour with a knife in the back. As a fan of Bisu, I feel a little bad him as he invested a day before the news broke out. That doesn't change the fact that he was smiling at the thought of making millions of Wons off his fans' misery though.
I can't deny that I want to see Bisu and Flash play again, but I hope the fans never forget about this incident.
Ok as a Korean speaker who's actually listened to both the ~30min tape recording and the ~1hr tape recording and have a better understanding of the context of the points made above, I feel like I have some duty to provide more insight on this. For the record, I'm not going out of my way to defend people because I'm some blind fan. I honestly couldn't care less what happens to Flash, and though I have a bias for Bisu he's hardly big fish at the moment. I will admit I am reserving judgment for far longer than I usually would but that's partially because I've watched the streams of most of the people involved and I find their alleged involvement in this "conspiracy" to be out of character, and therefore am waiting for more facts to come to light.
As jinjin pointed out, ygosu is hardly a good place to find factual information. It is on the level of 4chan for gutter trash and the points above are evidence of that. Selectively taking single quotes from a 30min discussion and presenting it out of context to interpret it in a way that fits their agenda is hardly credible information.
1. The point about Flash being a financial advisor automatically meaning that Flash had extensive knowledge of the scheme is pretty weak. His appointment as a financial advisor is laughable and more likely to be a marketing stunt than him actually having the financial expertise to advise any organisation about investment.
2. Suit asking why the streamers signed the contract is in response to mainly Britney asking Suit to immediately return the invested funds to them because they can no longer be affiliated with the coin if they want to have any hope of reviving their streaming careers. Suit is essentially explaining to them that returning their funds and dumping the entire project isn't that simple as he has obligations to other shareholders (non public figures) that have been with him for up to 3 years. The context around the quote highlighted in RWlabs' post is literally this "if you were going to ask for all your money back the moment anything went to shit then why did you make the investment?" Suit was essentially calling the streamers out for thinking they can make an investment with absolutely zero risk, which isn't the case.
3. Flash talking about what it would take for him and others to return to streaming is brought up in the 30min conversation. Extracting a single quote from that and saying "the streamers don't have any remorse for what happened" is just straight up trying to make them look shit and twisting their words. The context of the first quote is that despite everything that happened, Suit and his original group of investors that have been with the project for far longer than the streamers still wish for the project to go ahead and launch. Suit points out that despite the bad PR the original team still believes in the project and wish for it to go ahead. A conflict of interest is now apparent between Suit and the streamers and the streamers say that for them to even think about returning to streaming the entire project must be dumped altogether. Suit asks "Are you 100% sure your viewers would forgive you?" and Flash replies "I think we would at least be able to stream again." As for the second quote, the context is basically that these streamers and Suit have met up to have an honest discussion about what to do moving forward and the current consensus is that the negative PR has put them in a no-win situation. Streaming is their entire life at this point and Flash simply brings up the issue of whether they'd even be able to return to streaming and with what image that would be. As for Suit his hopes are still to proceed with the project as it has been a business development years in the making and with the current shitstorm he's in a position where he can't back out but can't move forward either.
4. Hell yes they were paid to advertise the cryptocurrency. Now this is straight up false or at the very least twisting things in the worst way possible. None of the streamers present for the tape recording were paid to advertise the coin. Suit even asks "Did I ever ask any of you to advertise the coin?", to which no one responds. There's also a key piece of information that is revealed in the recording (first time I heard of it at least), which is that the guarantee is only effective if the coin fails to go to market. If the coin does go to market, then the initial investment is not guaranteed. The key conclusion then is that the streamers did not enter into a risk free investment; whether or not they understood this risk is another issue.
5. Currently there's no evidence to suggest that Flash's claim that he consulted with his mother isn't true. Flash claimed that due to him being in the military base Suit discussed with his mother about investing and after consultation with his mother, they decided to invest because Suit made a good impression on his mum. There's no new evidence to suggest that this never happened.
6. Flash was the broker beyond the shadow of a doubt Britney says in his video that he honestly suspected not just Flash, but everyone, of being a party to this "scheme". He does however go onto say in the same video as RWLab's link that Flash was not a broker. Whilst it is true that Flash first introduced him to this particular coin investment, Britney's position on this is consistent with Flash's announcement about why he got Britney involved. Britney therefore was very careful about revealing the fact that Flash introduced him because his chat was filled with "Who was the broker?" questions and looking for a target, and therefore would make Flash look complicit when in fact Flash was not on the same page as Suit and did not act as a broker.
Honestly, RWLabs' post is a whole heap of tabloid-level shit that doesn't help to present the facts of the scandal. If anyone's actually listened to the tape recordings (I've only listened to 2 out of apparently 3 that are supposed to have been revealed), the only thing we can be certain of is that this whole scandal reeks of gross incompetence and ignorance from all parties involved. However, unless you want to make the assumption that all the recordings are scripted and everyone is acting, it's also pretty clear that the streamers had no idea about the coin being potentially perceived as a pump and dump scheme.
Whether Suit knew and is now trying to control the situation or whether he was just hugely incompetent is still hard to judge. His general stance throughout the recordings I've heard is that this was a legitimate business idea that had been in development for years, and that his initial group of investors still want to proceed with this idea. This may involve a complete rebranding but dumping the entire project altogether is not something he wishes to do because he obviously has other obligations to shareholders other than the streamers. The involvement of the streamers was simply because he was a fan of the streamers and the continued association with them led to one thing after another. He cannot return the streamers' investments because the contract forbids it, however because he was a fan of the streamers he has personally guaranteed their investment being refunded to them.
Judging from one of the recordings I listened to it seems like Bisu has already been refunded his investment out of Suit's pocket, however Suit doesn't have the cash available to immediately reimburse all the streamers and therefore there are streamers still waiting for their money back. The idea is that Suit will personally reimburse everyone and effectively buy everyone's TOcoin share.
What is clear to me at least is that Flash included, all the streamers are clueless about finance or even about basic contract and commercial law. Britney in particular was hard to listen to because he was just ranting about why he couldn't get his investment back when his contract forbid it. All they care about now is doing whatever it takes to restore their reputation to a point that allows them to return to streaming, which is the only thing they have going for them. Unfortunately the witchhunt is still in effect and their viewers are not taking into consideration whether there was malice, whether anyone actually incurred losses or whether it is even plausible that Suit's venture was legitimate. As for the poor professional work on Suit's side, whilst it is inexcusable for someone handling a project with this much capital to be so shit at what they do, I'm personally not that skeptical because anyone who knows Korean culture understands that Suit isn't unique in acting like this if you're from a startup. Proper admin work is extremely inefficient, time consuming and quite frankly expensive, which is why many SMEs simply do not have administrative work up to scratch, including even contracts. It's why despite the huge advancements in living standards, tech, economy etc. in Korea it's so easy to get scammed still. Many people simply have a poor understanding of contract and commercial law and handshake deals and "trust" is still a huge factor in business particularly in the SME level.
edit: added this part from my next post for cleaner summary To make one final point, to me this entire problem still stems from the fact that viewers are crucifying them for what could have happened in the worst case scenario. However the fact is that what the viewers are criticising them for did not happen and therefore to make the claim that the streamers were definitely involved in an illegal scheme that would have ended up with some viewers losing a lot of money is ludicrous. It is entirely possible that in the best case scenario, this scandal didn't blow up, Suit's venture is fairly successful, and the streamers' investments remained confidential for a long time. In this scenario people would win or lose depending on when they entered and exited but it would have nothing to do with a pump and dump and it would just be a normal investment like any other, where each bore the risk of their own. At this point it's pretty much impossible to prove one or the other which in a sensible world would mean "innocent until proven guilty" and everyone goes on with their lives; no harm done. It's gutter trash sites like ygosu, dc, afreeca chat, youtube commenters and youtube journalists continuing to fuel this when if they all just dropped it, it wouldn't make any difference to their lives.
This was a fantastic post that goes into details and makes some good rebuttals to RWLabs' post. Thanks for sharing. There was always a chance that the coin was actually legit, even more so if the guaranteed investment wasn't a guarantee once the coin went onto the market. This paints a totally different picture of the whole situation. Likewise, Suit asking if he ever asked them to advertise it was pretty big too.
As for the FobtGate, it was possibly just for marketing purposes, but did Flash really call himself a guru after that? It seems like he put himself in a worse position due to this imo. What I would like to know is just how much they spoke about the coin on stream? Did they name drop it a lot? Is there more info on this?
Man... Scammers are everywhere. Sadly I also got enticed to Invest in a scam by someone I trusted and lost a good amount of money... I doubt this progamers wanted anything malicious to happen to their fans. I don't think they completely knew what the implication was for this advertisement... and got sucked in by the easy money, I don't think there were malicious thoughts behind what they did.
After I read the stories of Nada, SoulKey and Light losing a ton of money, I didn't feel as bad for my own loss and made me more motivated and supportive of other victims of scams. Most people especially investors lose money at some point in their life. Stocks and especially Crypto resembles gambling to me, If you know a lot about the subject you can mitigate the risk, but emotional control I think is the most important and to not get greedy. You should always steer away from something that is to good to be true, because there is no such thing as a free lunch.
I hope if no damage was done, that they can get of with just a warning and a good lesson... This Suit guy should be investigated for fraud. To many notable players get involved in scandals that tarnish their name in the end. That makes the experience of the pro BW scene that I followed for decades lose it's meaning. I hope that JulyZerg and Jaedong weren't involved in any schemes, It would be hard to bear.
On July 04 2021 09:45 LinYu_roy wrote: I love BW with all my heart; but why would any one listen to BW streamers for investment advice? Just buy a S&P 500 index fund and hold, if you don't know shit.
Why would you listen to some random comment on game forum for advise of how to use your money?
Finally a ‘Flash would’ve done…’ that you can drop in Artosis’ stream that won’t piss him off.
Is it confirmed that Flash and others had some form of guarantee over their personal investments from Suit. I do think its considerably more shady to use one’s position and parasocial clout to potentially drive risky investments when you yourself have an undeclared safety net.
And Jesus I mean will crypto ever pass the stage of basically being a get-rich or get broke investment vehicle? It seems to be getting worse not better in that domain.
So one thing that may be important in determining if it was a planned pump or dump or legit is when is the token/coin launching? It seems like from the posts that it hasn't launched, is their a planned date? If the token/coin ends up now cancelled and not launching that would indicate to me that it was a planned fraud since otherwise it shouldn't really make a difference? If they believe in the coin then they should continue with launching it.
On July 05 2021 20:19 machinus wrote: If you want to make money from investment fraud, don't you have to actually sell shares in something?
If this is a "scam," it's a pretty incompetent one.
You can just tell people give me your money so we can create the coin in the first place... (but don't do it) There are many variations. I've never gotten 200K with my scams... ^_._^ It's not a bad score and wasn't the only one... But it did come out eventually so not perfect either.
I would love to get SHORT SUMMARY UPDATES on this... Especially if any investigations or lawsuits come out of it. And if any1 gets spanked.
On July 04 2021 20:54 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Take a break evilfatsh1t, I don't get how it is possible to continue to defend Flash and other streamers at this point. It is despicable behaviour to take advantage of your fans and viewers in this way, yet here you are again defending such behaviour.
well nazgul literally pointed it out a few minutes before you made your post. im not defending him because im being a fanboy, im simply not accusing him of what you are because theres no evidence to support your accusation. even after all the posts in this thread you still stick to your line that flash took advantage of his viewers and tried to profit from their losses, yet theres not a shred of evidence that definitively backs your claim. i could ask you just the same to take a break. i dont get how its possible to continue to try and put their heads on a stick when its pretty clear that they were just stupid, not malicious.
I don't need to take a break. Can hardly post less. I've made what just 2 posts before that one, meanwhile you and oxknu are on every page I look at, making up a substantial percentage of posts. If someone takes a guaranteed "investment" on a crytocurrency then advertises said cryptocurrency without disclosing that they themselves are taking no risk but stands to benefit, that is despicable behaviour.
I really don't get it. It is as if Flash, the BW streamer, the greatest BW player cannot be separated from the Flash who exhibited that detestable behaviour. Personally it doesn't affect my enjoyment of watching Flash stream and play in tournaments. I'll continue to watch just the same. (Well, when he comes back from the military anyways.) It doesn't take away from Flash's skill at BW at all.
I barely watch Flash as a BW fan, sometimes even skip over his tournament games (because they are mostly one-sided, or just pretty bad games overall). Hardly watch his stream, hardly watch Terran.
This has nothing to do with Flash and his status as a BW player. It's mostly about bitchy fanboy netizens having a crazy-fit filled with a lot of drama and misinformation on top of some let's just say unfortunate business choices from Flash and co.
Thankfully some of the great posters in this thread have not followed suit to the rapid-fire judgement of the situation and have offered some quality posts amidst the offensive and unthoughtful attacks from many others.
On July 04 2021 20:54 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Take a break evilfatsh1t, I don't get how it is possible to continue to defend Flash and other streamers at this point. It is despicable behaviour to take advantage of your fans and viewers in this way, yet here you are again defending such behaviour.
well nazgul literally pointed it out a few minutes before you made your post. im not defending him because im being a fanboy, im simply not accusing him of what you are because theres no evidence to support your accusation. even after all the posts in this thread you still stick to your line that flash took advantage of his viewers and tried to profit from their losses, yet theres not a shred of evidence that definitively backs your claim. i could ask you just the same to take a break. i dont get how its possible to continue to try and put their heads on a stick when its pretty clear that they were just stupid, not malicious.
If someone takes a guaranteed "investment" on a crytocurrency then advertises said cryptocurrency without disclosing that they themselves are taking no risk but stands to benefit, that is despicable behaviour.
From what I can tell, this turned out to be false. I'm sure you read all of evilfatsh1t's posts, but in one them he says:
"There's also a key piece of information that is revealed in the recording (first time I heard of it at least), which is that the guarantee is only effective if the coin fails to go to market. If the coin does go to market, then the initial investment is not guaranteed."
Slightly off-topic, but why would you ask a person who's actually bringing new information in here to take a break? That's ridiculous. We need all the information we can get. It's tired old posts already making a judgement for something that we still lack full information of that we can do without.
There's still something somewhat problematic about failing to disclose your relationship properly but I'm not an investments ethics expert.
If the agreement was just that if the coin fails to launch thats a lot better (outside of the disclosure stuff). Seeing as how their not financial people they probably don't have a fiduciary duty I have no idea what ethical issues they could get into. I dunno at this point this is just a reminder of how sketchy crypto is and why I avoid it as all costs. This is usually why theirs an investigation into this to get the details. Does South Korea have an equivalent to the SEC and any idea if they would investigate it? because without any sort of formal thing I feel this is just going to be a mess of a court of public opinion with slightly sketchy facts.
On July 04 2021 20:54 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Take a break evilfatsh1t, I don't get how it is possible to continue to defend Flash and other streamers at this point. It is despicable behaviour to take advantage of your fans and viewers in this way, yet here you are again defending such behaviour.
well nazgul literally pointed it out a few minutes before you made your post. im not defending him because im being a fanboy, im simply not accusing him of what you are because theres no evidence to support your accusation. even after all the posts in this thread you still stick to your line that flash took advantage of his viewers and tried to profit from their losses, yet theres not a shred of evidence that definitively backs your claim. i could ask you just the same to take a break. i dont get how its possible to continue to try and put their heads on a stick when its pretty clear that they were just stupid, not malicious.
I don't need to take a break. Can hardly post less. I've made what just 2 posts before that one, meanwhile you and oxknu are on every page I look at, making up a substantial percentage of posts. If someone takes a guaranteed "investment" on a crytocurrency then advertises said cryptocurrency without disclosing that they themselves are taking no risk but stands to benefit, that is despicable behaviour.
I really don't get it. It is as if Flash, the BW streamer, the greatest BW player cannot be separated from the Flash who exhibited that detestable behaviour. Personally it doesn't affect my enjoyment of watching Flash stream and play in tournaments. I'll continue to watch just the same. (Well, when he comes back from the military anyways.) It doesn't take away from Flash's skill at BW at all.
how about you go and read pretty much every other post other than your 2 instead of regurgitating the same stuff over and over. heres a summary anyway because im nice: 1. investment wasnt guaranteed 2. he nor any of the other streamers with the exception of kote advertised the coin. below is a quote from my response to you
theres no evidence to support your accusation. even after all the posts in this thread you still stick to your line that flash took advantage of his viewers and tried to profit from their losses, yet theres not a shred of evidence that definitively backs your claim.
im not gonna bother responding to you further when you continue to willfully disregard the information currently available to us and discuss the matter in bad faith. the reason i have so many posts in this thread already is because ive been presenting information to people who are misinformed so that they can assess the situation better. if youre not gonna bother to actually catch up on that then dont read the thread. simple
Now to the real question: is there a possibility that Bisu, FlaSh and others involved can be banned from ASL? Maybe ppl will calm down before FlaSh gets discharded from military. What about Bisu? He was already telling that upcoming ASL can be his last and after this scandal it's going to hurt him so much. Fuck this shit.
On July 06 2021 14:46 outscar wrote: Now to the real question: is there a possibility that Bisu, FlaSh and others involved can be banned from ASL? Maybe ppl will calm down before FlaSh gets discharded from military. What about Bisu? He was already telling that upcoming ASL can be his last and after this scandal it's going to hurt him so much. Fuck this shit.
It does not really matter much because the chance he decides to not participate himself is even bigger than the chance ASL will impose a ban. I mean, fans don't want to see him, he's not motivated himself, and it's not like those pros play ASL for the money. Personally I don't think there will be a ban though.
What's more important is whether ASL loses its appeal. Bisu and Sea alone attracted 100k plus viewers during the last ASL final. Without them where would these viewers go?
Seems pretty scummy to me. If you advertise something and don't disclose 1) the fact that it's an advertisement or 2) the nature of your relationship with the organization/product involved, you are deceiving your audience. In this case, it's even worse because the audience stands to lose money and the potential for a pump n dump is massive with a few streamers being essentially gifted a bunch of the coin in question. Somehow I doubt most of these streamers would have "invested" in this random no-name coin if their money wasn't guaranteed. This is especially scummy coming from flash, who is obviously doing just fine financially.
On July 06 2021 18:54 vespene_geyser wrote: Can someone summarize FACTS supporting that Flash wanted to advertise the coin?
I mean, if he didn't want to advertise it why would he even bring something like that up on stream?
People like to talk about things they're interested/invested in. Flash is interested/invested in one or several coins, and in my understanding he can be classified as a "person" :p
On July 10 2021 00:58 End1esss wrote: Elon Musk Tweet about DogeCOIN all the time with 58M followers. Is he the biggest Scandal?
Quite a bad comparison you're trying to make as Elon has been investigated by the SEC multiples times, and continues to be. Further, Elon and Tesla have both paid fines to the SEC due to his tweets(regarding TSLA). So... yes, Elon has been in quite a few scandals.
On July 10 2021 00:58 End1esss wrote: Elon Musk Tweet about DogeCOIN all the time with 58M followers. Is he the biggest Scandal?
When you're a billionaire and one of the richest people in the world, the rules and standards definitely apply a bit differently
Also, it helps that he is not directly targeting people whose generosity he financially depends upon. For example, it would be a bit different if every Tesla you bought comes with a leaflet promoting doge.
That being said, Musk did draw a lot of criticism with his tweets. But Tesla, SpaceX, etc are a lot bigger than just Musk. Professional streamers live and die on their persona.
Musk definitely lost the remaining respect I had for him when he got in and out of BTC the way he did. Not illegal, but completely irresponsible behavior that may've cost many people a lot of money for no good reason. His excuse for backing out was absurd, because it means he didn't do the most superficial of research when he got in, considering he's presumably so incredibly concerned for the environment.
By the time Flash comes back from army I think BW will be done.
I'm guessing Bisu will come back near the next ASL, which should be in a few months. He'll face a backlash anyways, since he has a lot of rabid, irrational fans but not enough for him to completely call it quits.
On July 12 2021 01:56 oxKnu wrote: By the time Flash comes back from army I think BW will be done.
I'm guessing Bisu will come back near the next ASL, which should be in a few months. He'll face a backlash anyways, since he has a lot of rabid, irrational fans but not enough for him to completely call it quits.
BW will be done for progamers unfortunately. BW will grow more as a casual game. Just week ago there were 50k concurrent users and many major streamers streaming BW. FYI highest concurrent user peaked in 2009 with 67k. That's pretty good. Progaming scene has taken a hit. If you think bw will be done just because flash and bisu are not there I gotta say you're pretty wrong and haven't been keeping up with general bw scene.
Indeed. BW is more than just Flash and Bisu. The recent ASL finals was great and Larva/Mini have grown into their own right. I think as long as the BW playing population numbers are healthy, BW is not going anywhere even if something like ASL finishes, sad as that may be.
BW as a game yes, it won't go anywhere. It's been surviving on its own for far longer than the recent resurgence let's say.
But I was talking about the pro-gamer afreeca scene. Bisu/Flash represent the main attraction of those sponsored team league games played online bringing in most fan donations and without those there is no money for grabs for the Soulkey/Sharp's of the world going forward. And if there are only 5 people streaming BW at a high level of competition, that's not much of a scene now is it?
On July 12 2021 04:04 oxKnu wrote: BW as a game yes, it won't go anywhere. It's been surviving on its own for far longer than the recent resurgence let's say.
But I was talking about the pro-gamer afreeca scene. Bisu/Flash represent the main attraction of those sponsored team league games played online bringing in most fan donations and without those there is no money for grabs for the Soulkey/Sharp's of the world going forward. And if there are only 5 people streaming BW at a high level of competition, that's not much of a scene now is it?
Ofc I really hope I am wrong.
it's honestly better now because flash/bisu were kinda gatekeeping bw scene in a weird sense. It's more interesting when unknown players start rising. For instance, mini is really young and he had average 100~200 viewers. Now, he gets 500~2k. It's time for younger players to step up. Flash/bisu were gone anyway due to either declining skills or rekt wrist.
On July 12 2021 03:44 BigFan wrote: Indeed. BW is more than just Flash and Bisu. The recent ASL finals was great and Larva/Mini have grown into their own right. I think as long as the BW playing population numbers are healthy, BW is not going anywhere even if something like ASL finishes, sad as that may be.
ASL is a huge hit (Last finals viewer numbers). Why would it be the last ASL?
On July 12 2021 03:44 BigFan wrote: Indeed. BW is more than just Flash and Bisu. The recent ASL finals was great and Larva/Mini have grown into their own right. I think as long as the BW playing population numbers are healthy, BW is not going anywhere even if something like ASL finishes, sad as that may be.
ASL is a huge hit (Last finals viewer numbers). Why would it be the last ASL?
On July 12 2021 03:44 BigFan wrote: Indeed. BW is more than just Flash and Bisu. The recent ASL finals was great and Larva/Mini have grown into their own right. I think as long as the BW playing population numbers are healthy, BW is not going anywhere even if something like ASL finishes, sad as that may be.
ASL is a huge hit (Last finals viewer numbers). Why would it be the last ASL?
On July 12 2021 03:44 BigFan wrote: Indeed. BW is more than just Flash and Bisu. The recent ASL finals was great and Larva/Mini have grown into their own right. I think as long as the BW playing population numbers are healthy, BW is not going anywhere even if something like ASL finishes, sad as that may be.
ASL is a huge hit (Last finals viewer numbers). Why would it be the last ASL?
Larva is retired now, also.
lol @ posting something huge like this without a link
jinjin5000 jinjin5000 hace 6 horas (editado) larva announced he's retiring from 1v1 starcraft spon games he will still stick around doing trollgames but he says his wrist hurts and he will stop doing tryhard 1v1 melee
Larva joins effort in recent 1v1 retirees...
Larva may stick around for competitions, but seems like his peak days are gone
So he is playing ASL12 and Proleague games i think ? But he is saying that his peak is gone.Is larva pulling some clickbait right now ? lmao
On July 14 2021 20:02 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: JinJin edited his post with this new info.
jinjin5000 jinjin5000 hace 6 horas (editado) larva announced he's retiring from 1v1 starcraft spon games he will still stick around doing trollgames but he says his wrist hurts and he will stop doing tryhard 1v1 melee
Larva joins effort in recent 1v1 retirees...
Larva may stick around for competitions, but seems like his peak days are gone
So he is playing ASL12 and Proleague games i think ? But he is saying that his peak is gone.Is larva pulling some clickbait right now ? lmao
hes not doing 1v1 spon anymore
competitions he probably meant some of the minor ones like castermuse/bj destruction maybe? i swear i saw even last played in bj destruction or something like that recently.
also i think larva's anncouncement deserves its own thread if its true since this is unrelated to coingate
On July 14 2021 17:47 oxKnu wrote: Is Best also officially retired?
Best isn't (yet). He's just focusing on his restaurant for now and taking a break from BW. But I imagine the day will come soon as his focus shifts to his business and then getting married and etc.
So since the last season of ASL we have Flash, Soulkey, Effort, Bisu, Larva announcing different kinds of retirement. Dark days ahead it seems.
On July 14 2021 17:47 oxKnu wrote: Is Best also officially retired?
Best isn't (yet). He's just focusing on his restaurant for now and taking a break from BW. But I imagine the day will come soon as his focus shifts to his business and then getting married and etc.
So since the last season of ASL we have Flash, Soulkey, Effort, Bisu, Larva announcing different kinds of retirement. Dark days ahead it seems.
On July 21 2021 07:53 Starecat wrote: In the end KR netizens opinion on Flash changed? Did he got banned or something?
:[
Not sure how much it matters when he is in the army - i don´t asume he will be streaming while his is enlisted?
When he is done with his military service, we will see. My guess it that a year from now the vast majority has forgotten the drama and are just happy to have Flash and others back.
But i could be wrong. Often i feel like KR fans are kinda brutal against those they are fans. Guess we have to see when ASL12 starts
interest in the scandal seems pretty dead now. i mentioned this before but the only people "investigating" the scandal were a few youtube "journalists". theyve already moved on by the looks of it to new scandals and the afreeca/youtube/fmkorea/dc communities have followed. give it a few more weeks or months tops and i think well see streamers coming back with some apology as a formality and continue streaming. at some point fans are gonna be like meh and streamers will just accept that some fans will leave them and some fans will stay.
On July 23 2021 17:02 evilfatsh1t wrote: interest in the scandal seems pretty dead now. i mentioned this before but the only people "investigating" the scandal were a few youtube "journalists". theyve already moved on by the looks of it to new scandals and the afreeca/youtube/fmkorea/dc communities have followed. give it a few more weeks or months tops and i think well see streamers coming back with some apology as a formality and continue streaming. at some point fans are gonna be like meh and streamers will just accept that some fans will leave them and some fans will stay.
probably this will happen but for now, the opinion seems to have settled on that people involved with coingate were trying to screw over fans and that these guys are as bad as saviOr
time will tell if they will come back, maybe backlash will be really bad if they return.
the timing of this news couldn't have been more coincidental, right as flash left for the army. intentional or not you know flash himself is basically banking on things to die down by the time he is done with military. does that makes one more sympathetic to the cause?
i mean even savior gets to continue "streaming" after that... a lesser offender like hwasin also got to stream for quite a while before his recalcitrance is shown on stream one day
What year was that ? I haven't seen any news regarding him in ages. He used to play in tournaments in China like 6-7 years ago during the dark ages of BW between late 2012 and early 2015. I would like to know more about what he's been doing, since i was there before, during and and after his reign and those times were f**king awesome !!!
On June 26 2021 08:35 Scaramanga wrote: So flash mentioned this on stream saying he is an investor, didn't tell people to invest and told people to do their own homework about what investments they want to make, yet he is still at fault?
This.
I can’t see how this is a scandal by any measure. Sure Flash wasn’t perfectly immaculate but c’mon, why do we demand Jesus-like behavior from someone who has already given us so much?
I like to believe we’re a community with a little common sense.
I respect Flash’s apology, which honestly is more than we deserve. Moving on…
On June 26 2021 08:35 Scaramanga wrote: So flash mentioned this on stream saying he is an investor, didn't tell people to invest and told people to do their own homework about what investments they want to make, yet he is still at fault?
This.
I can’t see how this is a scandal by any measure. Sure Flash wasn’t perfectly immaculate but c’mon, why do we demand Jesus-like behavior from someone who has already given us so much?
I like to believe we’re a community with a little common sense.
I respect Flash’s apology, which honestly is more than we deserve. Moving on…
Look at it this way:
- This dodgy guy made a new coin which, although not illegal, is 99% a pump n dump scheme
- Flash invested on this scheme, and invited a few others to do so
- Flash indirectly promoted this coin on his stream.
Can't say he didn't do anything wrong. If anything I only feel bad for Bisu, Sea, Britney who didn't do anything much other than listening to Flash's invitation.
Anyway Sea is back streaming now and although it looks like he's still got a lot of hate speech from fans, the viewer counts are as good as ever. Maybe everything will go back to normal with time.
Lets be real here for a moment, these guys are streamers, not financial or legal experts. To them, they probably just think they are promoting another product, exactly like all streamers do with their sponsors. Now the type of people who know how to scam through insider trading are really really damn good at scamming people. They know what they are doing and know how to be very persuasive often times purposely inviting a large group of people into their pitch to seem more legit kind of like what you see in a multilevel marketing scheme. So I'm not surprised a group of streamers/pro-gamers got stringed along with this scammers plot, after all they are really bloody good at selling their BS. Lets not hold this against Flash too much here, smarter people have been used before and probably many more in the future.
Flash isn't new to all of this (business, monetizing himself). I'm a nobody, and I know to not do certain things on stream or to an audience.
This junk isn't new, too. Same stuff with Faze clan. They're being called out and being dropped from companies and sponsorships. Don't know if it is illegal, but it surely is trashy at best. Its a bit different, but same excuses as to them being stupid and innocent little rabbit cuties, we just didn't know!
It's odd to me when people do something, go pretty hard, then say they don't know shit about it.
I know he's got money, but to dump 300k into something you're now claiming you're just some dumb idiot, is, well, unbelievable. Possible, but unbelievable.
Last time I put a whole bunch of money into something I am naive about and claim to know nothing about, was never. I know people do dumb stuff with their money and all, and it isn't always right to compare. But, what are the chances that I generally know more than Flash, Bisu, Sea, Faze Kay, etc, about streaming? How did they all simultaneously not know, but I know...? *We* know.
Just they don't. It's just the ones to stand to gain from the pump and dump it was inevitably going to be, that don't know or understand. They're just naive to streaming morals and generic crypto knowledge that we all have now. Streaming isn't new, and crypto isn't new. Streaming rules and influencer morals isn't new and crypto scam coins aren't new.
If this isn't that bad of a thing to people, I want my favorite player reinstated. All he did was fix a couple games, I can stand for some WWE pre situated games being traded here and there. UpMagic needs to come back, just say he didn't really know what the money was for, he didn't understand, and bada bing bada boom, or whatever genies say, he's just a regular old you and me now and can't figure it all out. We should feel sorry for his lack of intelligence on the matter of how he stood to gain from a match being rigged.
Anyway, if we want to forgive dumb shit, let's all around forgive dumb shit. I want UpMagic back and I want him to be paid an 11 yr salary since the ban. He's just a naive little idiot like Flash. Just caught up in a situation that they benefited or would have benefitted from, but really didn't know. It would have been a happy accident if they made money....
On October 05 2021 15:21 jaytep wrote: Flash isn't new to all of this (business, monetizing himself). I'm a nobody, and I know to not do certain things on stream or to an audience.
This junk isn't new, too. Same stuff with Faze clan. They're being called out and being dropped from companies and sponsorships. Don't know if it is illegal, but it surely is trashy at best. Its a bit different, but same excuses as to them being stupid and innocent little rabbit cuties, we just didn't know!
It's odd to me when people do something, go pretty hard, then say they don't know shit about it.
I know he's got money, but to dump 300k into something you're now claiming you're just some dumb idiot, is, well, unbelievable. Possible, but unbelievable.
Last time I put a whole bunch of money into something I am naive about and claim to know nothing about, was never. I know people do dumb stuff with their money and all, and it isn't always right to compare. But, what are the chances that I generally know more than Flash, Bisu, Sea, Faze Kay, etc, about streaming? How did they all simultaneously not know, but I know...? *We* know.
Just they don't. It's just the ones to stand to gain from the pump and dump it was inevitably going to be, that don't know or understand. They're just naive to streaming morals and generic crypto knowledge that we all have now. Streaming isn't new, and crypto isn't new. Streaming rules and influencer morals isn't new and crypto scam coins aren't new.
If this isn't that bad of a thing to people, I want my favorite player reinstated. All he did was fix a couple games, I can stand for some WWE pre situated games being traded here and there. UpMagic needs to come back, just say he didn't really know what the money was for, he didn't understand, and bada bing bada boom, or whatever genies say, he's just a regular old you and me now and can't figure it all out. We should feel sorry for his lack of intelligence on the matter of how he stood to gain from a match being rigged.
Anyway, if we want to forgive dumb shit, let's all around forgive dumb shit. I want UpMagic back and I want him to be paid an 11 yr salary since the ban. He's just a naive little idiot like Flash. Just caught up in a situation that they benefited or would have benefitted from, but really didn't know. It would have been a happy accident if they made money....
You're comparing apples and oranges here and there. Firstly Match fixing and promoting crypto currency are very different things. Every pro-gamer should know match fixing is illegal, but most governments don't even have consistent laws on crypto currencies, and yes people have been investing in crypto currencies for a while, but I can guarantee you most of those investors have little or no idea how crypto currency pricing works and probably just treat them like a commodity. Secondly, groups of friends who all happen to get caught up in the same scheme isn't uncommon, scammers know what they are doing, and often target them specifically to abuse mob mentality (as in when someone sees all their friends are also signing up, they feel more secure and assume its not sketchy) so I'm not surprised that all these pro-gamers/streamers were naïve enough to get caught up in this, it happens even on Wall Street. Thirdly, Flash is not a businessman, he is a professional gamer, and like most professional gamers most of their money management is handled by their families. Flash's job as a pro-gamer is to practice for his matches and rehearse speeches thanking his sponsors after his games. This is an ideal target for these scammers. I get that some people like to enforce draconian as a preventative measure, but the legal system is designed for "punish and reform". How are we suppose to carry out the reform part when tribal community members don't even want to give people a second chance.
People invest huge amount of money in stocks they know nothing about, all the time. Just because you never did it doesn’t mean others are as smart as you. Besides, crypto is pretty new and people are blinded by the insane returns a little investment in Bitcoin 10 years ago would bring.
This is just Koreas being thirsty for drama and want to hate successful streamers
On October 05 2021 16:18 Timebon3s wrote: People invest huge amount of money in stocks they know nothing about, all the time. Just because you never did it doesn’t mean others are as smart as you. Besides, crypto is pretty new and people are blinded by the insane returns a little investment in Bitcoin 10 years ago would bring.
This is just Koreas being thirsty for drama and want to hate successful streamers
On October 05 2021 15:21 jaytep wrote: Flash isn't new to all of this (business, monetizing himself). I'm a nobody, and I know to not do certain things on stream or to an audience.
This junk isn't new, too. Same stuff with Faze clan. They're being called out and being dropped from companies and sponsorships. Don't know if it is illegal, but it surely is trashy at best. Its a bit different, but same excuses as to them being stupid and innocent little rabbit cuties, we just didn't know!
It's odd to me when people do something, go pretty hard, then say they don't know shit about it.
I know he's got money, but to dump 300k into something you're now claiming you're just some dumb idiot, is, well, unbelievable. Possible, but unbelievable.
Last time I put a whole bunch of money into something I am naive about and claim to know nothing about, was never. I know people do dumb stuff with their money and all, and it isn't always right to compare. But, what are the chances that I generally know more than Flash, Bisu, Sea, Faze Kay, etc, about streaming? How did they all simultaneously not know, but I know...? *We* know.
Just they don't. It's just the ones to stand to gain from the pump and dump it was inevitably going to be, that don't know or understand. They're just naive to streaming morals and generic crypto knowledge that we all have now. Streaming isn't new, and crypto isn't new. Streaming rules and influencer morals isn't new and crypto scam coins aren't new.
If this isn't that bad of a thing to people, I want my favorite player reinstated. All he did was fix a couple games, I can stand for some WWE pre situated games being traded here and there. UpMagic needs to come back, just say he didn't really know what the money was for, he didn't understand, and bada bing bada boom, or whatever genies say, he's just a regular old you and me now and can't figure it all out. We should feel sorry for his lack of intelligence on the matter of how he stood to gain from a match being rigged.
Anyway, if we want to forgive dumb shit, let's all around forgive dumb shit. I want UpMagic back and I want him to be paid an 11 yr salary since the ban. He's just a naive little idiot like Flash. Just caught up in a situation that they benefited or would have benefitted from, but really didn't know. It would have been a happy accident if they made money....
You're comparing apples and oranges here and there. Firstly Match fixing and promoting crypto currency are very different things. Every pro-gamer should know match fixing is illegal, but most governments don't even have consistent laws on crypto currencies, and yes people have been investing in crypto currencies for a while, but I can guarantee you most of those investors have little or no idea how crypto currency pricing works and probably just treat them like a commodity. Secondly, groups of friends who all happen to get caught up in the same scheme isn't uncommon, scammers know what they are doing, and often target them specifically to abuse mob mentality (as in when someone sees all their friends are also signing up, they feel more secure and assume its not sketchy) so I'm not surprised that all these pro-gamers/streamers were naïve enough to get caught up in this, it happens even on Wall Street. Thirdly, Flash is not a businessman, he is a professional gamer, and like most professional gamers most of their money management is handled by their families. Flash's job as a pro-gamer is to practice for his matches and rehearse speeches thanking his sponsors after his games. This is an ideal target for these scammers. I get that some people like to enforce draconian as a preventative measure, but the legal system is designed for "punish and reform". How are we suppose to carry out the reform part when tribal community members don't even want to give people a second chance.
For your first part, yes, I'm comparing apples and oranges, since they're both fruits. They have way more in common than apples and subways. Match fixing, bad.. promoting coin this way, bad. Bad is the category, not that those two are the same actual thing. I'm glad you noticed I'm comparing apples to oranges.
I know a guy that was a progamer from um, 2004 to I think it was 2010 or 2011. They have way more say in the business side of things than you're trying to put off, he isn't a B team practice partner 12 year old. There's quite a few TL profiles noting players who negotiated deals and left teams because they were underused based on their contract and all different types of stuff that they had a hand in and a say in. Or, look at the LoL guys who basically run their show, and Overwatch pros as well.
I don't disagree their job is to play, practice, win, and be a face. You think LeBron just knows nothing about how to sell himself? When his manager says Nike is offering him 300 bucks for a commercial he's just like, well, I'm just a player, I guess I'll just do it... Flash just knows jack shit about stream sponsors etc? He has done appearances, interviews, maybe set up by managers, but he's just dumb and doesn't know what's going on? Managers just save time and find it all, it's actually an easy job in general and many players and actors and bands represent themselves..
Just because he's a pro gamer doesn't mean he knows nothing else. I'm a pro banker and I study language on the side and speak 5 atm. I play a few sports at competitive levels. You can know more than 1 thing.
Some of these guys are great chefs, athletes, my friend also was a great software bro while a pro gamer, and is now working in that field in gaming..
To your second point, sure, I don't think you're off base at all. However, you would have to believe in this scenario, that Flash is an idiot, and quite literally only knows StarCraft and literally nothing else.
If you believe that, it is what it is. I can't change your mind on it nor will I try then. I however don't. I think he is at minimum an average guy, who would be able to fathom a modern world where he can search engine something in 20 seconds and find an answer before dumping 300k in something your putting forth that he knows nothing about.
Like I have said, possible, but unlikely.
As for a second chance, is the match fixing coming more into play here now? Is my apples to oranges comparison off target? Savior, UpMagic, Luxury, go.go, and whoever the rest are I can't remember.. should.. get a second a chance, ...like... Flash?
Let's do it. I forgive Flash right now. Now bring back UpMagic.
On October 05 2021 16:18 Timebon3s wrote: People invest huge amount of money in stocks they know nothing about, all the time. Just because you never did it doesn’t mean others are as smart as you. Besides, crypto is pretty new and people are blinded by the insane returns a little investment in Bitcoin 10 years ago would bring.
This is just Koreas being thirsty for drama and want to hate successful streamers
Except nobody cares if he invests in stocks or crypto or 12 tons of Pocari Sweat. It's about the audience that will hype the coin worth. You're confusing what people are finding distasteful.
Go check what's happening to Faze. Similar situation, except, they went through with it and are facing consequences.
Go check what Mark Cuban did with 70k hyping a coin to an audience.
Ignorance isn't sufficient to me if you screw over hundreds or thousands of people. People lost life savings on Cuban hyping the coin he was selling anyway. Faze fans lost life savings first day because that was the plan, to sell after the hype and dump the coin.
These are actual examples of what this could have been, which is the distaste, using an audience to boost the price.
So it’s unbelievable that flash invests in something he knows nothing about, but entirely reasonable that people invest their life savings in random crypto hyped by video game streamers?
On October 05 2021 15:21 jaytep wrote: Flash isn't new to all of this (business, monetizing himself). I'm a nobody, and I know to not do certain things on stream or to an audience.
This junk isn't new, too. Same stuff with Faze clan. They're being called out and being dropped from companies and sponsorships. Don't know if it is illegal, but it surely is trashy at best. Its a bit different, but same excuses as to them being stupid and innocent little rabbit cuties, we just didn't know!
It's odd to me when people do something, go pretty hard, then say they don't know shit about it.
I know he's got money, but to dump 300k into something you're now claiming you're just some dumb idiot, is, well, unbelievable. Possible, but unbelievable.
Last time I put a whole bunch of money into something I am naive about and claim to know nothing about, was never. I know people do dumb stuff with their money and all, and it isn't always right to compare. But, what are the chances that I generally know more than Flash, Bisu, Sea, Faze Kay, etc, about streaming? How did they all simultaneously not know, but I know...? *We* know.
Just they don't. It's just the ones to stand to gain from the pump and dump it was inevitably going to be, that don't know or understand. They're just naive to streaming morals and generic crypto knowledge that we all have now. Streaming isn't new, and crypto isn't new. Streaming rules and influencer morals isn't new and crypto scam coins aren't new.
If this isn't that bad of a thing to people, I want my favorite player reinstated. All he did was fix a couple games, I can stand for some WWE pre situated games being traded here and there. UpMagic needs to come back, just say he didn't really know what the money was for, he didn't understand, and bada bing bada boom, or whatever genies say, he's just a regular old you and me now and can't figure it all out. We should feel sorry for his lack of intelligence on the matter of how he stood to gain from a match being rigged.
Anyway, if we want to forgive dumb shit, let's all around forgive dumb shit. I want UpMagic back and I want him to be paid an 11 yr salary since the ban. He's just a naive little idiot like Flash. Just caught up in a situation that they benefited or would have benefitted from, but really didn't know. It would have been a happy accident if they made money....
You're comparing apples and oranges here and there. Firstly Match fixing and promoting crypto currency are very different things. Every pro-gamer should know match fixing is illegal, but most governments don't even have consistent laws on crypto currencies, and yes people have been investing in crypto currencies for a while, but I can guarantee you most of those investors have little or no idea how crypto currency pricing works and probably just treat them like a commodity. Secondly, groups of friends who all happen to get caught up in the same scheme isn't uncommon, scammers know what they are doing, and often target them specifically to abuse mob mentality (as in when someone sees all their friends are also signing up, they feel more secure and assume its not sketchy) so I'm not surprised that all these pro-gamers/streamers were naïve enough to get caught up in this, it happens even on Wall Street. Thirdly, Flash is not a businessman, he is a professional gamer, and like most professional gamers most of their money management is handled by their families. Flash's job as a pro-gamer is to practice for his matches and rehearse speeches thanking his sponsors after his games. This is an ideal target for these scammers. I get that some people like to enforce draconian as a preventative measure, but the legal system is designed for "punish and reform". How are we suppose to carry out the reform part when tribal community members don't even want to give people a second chance.
For your first part, yes, I'm comparing apples and oranges, since they're both fruits. They have way more in common than apples and subways. Match fixing, bad.. promoting coin this way, bad. Bad is the category, not that those two are the same actual thing. I'm glad you noticed I'm comparing apples to oranges.
I know a guy that was a progamer from um, 2004 to I think it was 2010 or 2011. They have way more say in the business side of things than you're trying to put off, he isn't a B team practice partner 12 year old. There's quite a few TL profiles noting players who negotiated deals and left teams because they were underused based on their contract and all different types of stuff that they had a hand in and a say in. Or, look at the LoL guys who basically run their show, and Overwatch pros as well.
I don't disagree their job is to play, practice, win, and be a face. You think LeBron just knows nothing about how to sell himself? When his manager says Nike is offering him 300 bucks for a commercial he's just like, well, I'm just a player, I guess I'll just do it... Flash just knows jack shit about stream sponsors etc? He has done appearances, interviews, maybe set up by managers, but he's just dumb and doesn't know what's going on? Managers just save time and find it all, it's actually an easy job in general and many players and actors and bands represent themselves..
Just because he's a pro gamer doesn't mean he knows nothing else. I'm a pro banker and I study language on the side and speak 5 atm. I play a few sports at competitive levels. You can know more than 1 thing.
Some of these guys are great chefs, athletes, my friend also was a great software bro while a pro gamer, and is now working in that field in gaming..
To your second point, sure, I don't think you're off base at all. However, you would have to believe in this scenario, that Flash is an idiot, and quite literally only knows StarCraft and literally nothing else.
If you believe that, it is what it is. I can't change your mind on it nor will I try then. I however don't. I think he is at minimum an average guy, who would be able to fathom a modern world where he can search engine something in 20 seconds and find an answer before dumping 300k in something your putting forth that he knows nothing about.
Like I have said, possible, but unlikely.
As for a second chance, is the match fixing coming more into play here now? Is my apples to oranges comparison off target? Savior, UpMagic, Luxury, go.go, and whoever the rest are I can't remember.. should.. get a second a chance, ...like... Flash?
Let's do it. I forgive Flash right now. Now bring back UpMagic.
You're honestly being ridiculous. Just because you know one pro-gamer that manages his own finances (whom you can't even really seem to name, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt) doesn't mean all pro-gamers do. I know for a fact most do not, and it makes sense, because unlike Overwatch or LoL, BW pros start at a very young age, its not uncommon for them to be playing professionally as young as age 15, are you really gonna tell me a 15 year old is capable of managing his finances? I would surprised if most 15 years would even have a real bank account let alone understand how the laws behind a cryptocurrency contract work. Secondly, you're "argument" that because you're a banker and is multilingual automatically means that broodwar pros should also be able to learn university level economics/finance in their free time is plain stupid. Kespa era broodwar was notorious for having ridiculous practice hours like 16 hours per day level practice hours. It's basically a full time job and a life commitment in many ways, there is no way for them to have the time to learn much else to any significant degree during that period of time. So when a successful player like flash decides to retire from the kespa style pro-gaming with a large amount of disposable income, you can bet that he/she would invest a portion of their money into something they might not understand but may turnover high returns. Thirdly, yes Lebron is a good at marketing himself, but a lot of athletes and public figures are not, its why they have PR managers. Celebrities use them, politicians use them, and yes KESPA teams also used them to market their players, its common practice really. You keep trying to bring up the few outliers but that's exactly what they are outliers. Hell even Conor McGregor has a PR manager. Fourthly, have you ever read a formal contract? Like go try to take a bank loan or something and have a read, but I can guarantee you the jargon can throw off a lot of people unfamiliar with the terminology and they would likely need to clarify a few questions with the banking staff or at the very least spend some time googling. Now try to imagine some veteran scam artist maybe approaching your mum or something showing her a chart of bitcoin prices or w/e and then smooth talking her into the idea of investing while guarantee a cost free way to hedge any risks. Do you really expect a pro-gamer's mum will instantly understand the fine details or legality on a cryptocurrency contract? Maybe your mum's a genius but I can tell you even veteran investors get caught in the fine details. I don't get why you seem so obsessed about lynching famous pro-gamers, but seriously are you even sure you know the whole story here?
On October 07 2021 16:33 Timebon3s wrote: So it’s unbelievable that flash invests in something he knows nothing about, but entirely reasonable that people invest their life savings in random crypto hyped by video game streamers?
Was the controversial aspect not Flash having his initial investment protected in a way that would not be the case for any of his viewers who chose to invest?
Perhaps I am mistaken and this was shown to not be the case.
As far as I'm aware, the controversial aspect was Flash participating in a "pump and dump" making money off of his viewerbase. (without any evidence ofc)
On October 07 2021 16:33 Timebon3s wrote: So it’s unbelievable that flash invests in something he knows nothing about, but entirely reasonable that people invest their life savings in random crypto hyped by video game streamers?
No.
There isn't one place where I said this was the case.
It's that he didn't know that using his audience would be an issue.
Nobody, like I've said, cares that he invests in this or that. It makes no sense he would invest in something he knows nothing about AND start sharing it with his audience. This is the issue, the distasteful part.
The people investing their life savings aren't convincing others to do it too, unless they are, then it's bad and distasteful. Obviously.
On October 05 2021 15:21 jaytep wrote: Flash isn't new to all of this (business, monetizing himself). I'm a nobody, and I know to not do certain things on stream or to an audience.
This junk isn't new, too. Same stuff with Faze clan. They're being called out and being dropped from companies and sponsorships. Don't know if it is illegal, but it surely is trashy at best. Its a bit different, but same excuses as to them being stupid and innocent little rabbit cuties, we just didn't know!
It's odd to me when people do something, go pretty hard, then say they don't know shit about it.
I know he's got money, but to dump 300k into something you're now claiming you're just some dumb idiot, is, well, unbelievable. Possible, but unbelievable.
Last time I put a whole bunch of money into something I am naive about and claim to know nothing about, was never. I know people do dumb stuff with their money and all, and it isn't always right to compare. But, what are the chances that I generally know more than Flash, Bisu, Sea, Faze Kay, etc, about streaming? How did they all simultaneously not know, but I know...? *We* know.
Just they don't. It's just the ones to stand to gain from the pump and dump it was inevitably going to be, that don't know or understand. They're just naive to streaming morals and generic crypto knowledge that we all have now. Streaming isn't new, and crypto isn't new. Streaming rules and influencer morals isn't new and crypto scam coins aren't new.
If this isn't that bad of a thing to people, I want my favorite player reinstated. All he did was fix a couple games, I can stand for some WWE pre situated games being traded here and there. UpMagic needs to come back, just say he didn't really know what the money was for, he didn't understand, and bada bing bada boom, or whatever genies say, he's just a regular old you and me now and can't figure it all out. We should feel sorry for his lack of intelligence on the matter of how he stood to gain from a match being rigged.
Anyway, if we want to forgive dumb shit, let's all around forgive dumb shit. I want UpMagic back and I want him to be paid an 11 yr salary since the ban. He's just a naive little idiot like Flash. Just caught up in a situation that they benefited or would have benefitted from, but really didn't know. It would have been a happy accident if they made money....
You're comparing apples and oranges here and there. Firstly Match fixing and promoting crypto currency are very different things. Every pro-gamer should know match fixing is illegal, but most governments don't even have consistent laws on crypto currencies, and yes people have been investing in crypto currencies for a while, but I can guarantee you most of those investors have little or no idea how crypto currency pricing works and probably just treat them like a commodity. Secondly, groups of friends who all happen to get caught up in the same scheme isn't uncommon, scammers know what they are doing, and often target them specifically to abuse mob mentality (as in when someone sees all their friends are also signing up, they feel more secure and assume its not sketchy) so I'm not surprised that all these pro-gamers/streamers were naïve enough to get caught up in this, it happens even on Wall Street. Thirdly, Flash is not a businessman, he is a professional gamer, and like most professional gamers most of their money management is handled by their families. Flash's job as a pro-gamer is to practice for his matches and rehearse speeches thanking his sponsors after his games. This is an ideal target for these scammers. I get that some people like to enforce draconian as a preventative measure, but the legal system is designed for "punish and reform". How are we suppose to carry out the reform part when tribal community members don't even want to give people a second chance.
For your first part, yes, I'm comparing apples and oranges, since they're both fruits. They have way more in common than apples and subways. Match fixing, bad.. promoting coin this way, bad. Bad is the category, not that those two are the same actual thing. I'm glad you noticed I'm comparing apples to oranges.
I know a guy that was a progamer from um, 2004 to I think it was 2010 or 2011. They have way more say in the business side of things than you're trying to put off, he isn't a B team practice partner 12 year old. There's quite a few TL profiles noting players who negotiated deals and left teams because they were underused based on their contract and all different types of stuff that they had a hand in and a say in. Or, look at the LoL guys who basically run their show, and Overwatch pros as well.
I don't disagree their job is to play, practice, win, and be a face. You think LeBron just knows nothing about how to sell himself? When his manager says Nike is offering him 300 bucks for a commercial he's just like, well, I'm just a player, I guess I'll just do it... Flash just knows jack shit about stream sponsors etc? He has done appearances, interviews, maybe set up by managers, but he's just dumb and doesn't know what's going on? Managers just save time and find it all, it's actually an easy job in general and many players and actors and bands represent themselves..
Just because he's a pro gamer doesn't mean he knows nothing else. I'm a pro banker and I study language on the side and speak 5 atm. I play a few sports at competitive levels. You can know more than 1 thing.
Some of these guys are great chefs, athletes, my friend also was a great software bro while a pro gamer, and is now working in that field in gaming..
To your second point, sure, I don't think you're off base at all. However, you would have to believe in this scenario, that Flash is an idiot, and quite literally only knows StarCraft and literally nothing else.
If you believe that, it is what it is. I can't change your mind on it nor will I try then. I however don't. I think he is at minimum an average guy, who would be able to fathom a modern world where he can search engine something in 20 seconds and find an answer before dumping 300k in something your putting forth that he knows nothing about.
Like I have said, possible, but unlikely.
As for a second chance, is the match fixing coming more into play here now? Is my apples to oranges comparison off target? Savior, UpMagic, Luxury, go.go, and whoever the rest are I can't remember.. should.. get a second a chance, ...like... Flash?
Let's do it. I forgive Flash right now. Now bring back UpMagic.
You're honestly being ridiculous. Just because you know one pro-gamer that manages his own finances (whom you can't even really seem to name, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt) doesn't mean all pro-gamers do. I know for a fact most do not, and it makes sense, because unlike Overwatch or LoL, BW pros start at a very young age, its not uncommon for them to be playing professionally as young as age 15, are you really gonna tell me a 15 year old is capable of managing his finances? I would surprised if most 15 years would even have a real bank account let alone understand how the laws behind a cryptocurrency contract work. Secondly, you're "argument" that because you're a banker and is multilingual automatically means that broodwar pros should also be able to learn university level economics/finance in their free time is plain stupid. Kespa era broodwar was notorious for having ridiculous practice hours like 16 hours per day level practice hours. It's basically a full time job and a life commitment in many ways, there is no way for them to have the time to learn much else to any significant degree during that period of time. So when a successful player like flash decides to retire from the kespa style pro-gaming with a large amount of disposable income, you can bet that he/she would invest a portion of their money into something they might not understand but may turnover high returns. Thirdly, yes Lebron is a good at marketing himself, but a lot of athletes and public figures are not, its why they have PR managers. Celebrities use them, politicians use them, and yes KESPA teams also used them to market their players, its common practice really. You keep trying to bring up the few outliers but that's exactly what they are outliers. Hell even Conor McGregor has a PR manager. Fourthly, have you ever read a formal contract? Like go try to take a bank loan or something and have a read, but I can guarantee you the jargon can throw off a lot of people unfamiliar with the terminology and they would likely need to clarify a few questions with the banking staff or at the very least spend some time googling. Now try to imagine some veteran scam artist maybe approaching your mum or something showing her a chart of bitcoin prices or w/e and then smooth talking her into the idea of investing while guarantee a cost free way to hedge any risks. Do you really expect a pro-gamer's mum will instantly understand the fine details or legality on a cryptocurrency contract? Maybe your mum's a genius but I can tell you even veteran investors get caught in the fine details. I don't get why you seem so obsessed about lynching famous pro-gamers, but seriously are you even sure you know the whole story here?
I don't only know one progamer. Just one that I'm using as an example.
I can 'seem' to name him, nobody asked, I know him personally since I was 10 fr the same hometown, school, and sports. I won't name him however for his own privacy. If you believe me or not, it is irrelevant because even if I don't know anyone, my point still remains.
I never said all. Never, not once. I'm using almost 6 years of living in Korea and being around pro gamers I know personally before becoming pro gamers as my background. I don't know all, wouldn't ever suggest I do. Not sure why you're taking issue with 'all' when that has never been a part of this conversation.
I've noted that the person we are talking about, Flash, is not a 12 year old B team practice partner. Do you know how old Flash is? Do you know how in demand he is in the SC world? You know for a fact most do not? It only takes a little googling to find out that isn't true. Minus the fact that there's plenty of people that know pro players that quite literally have mentioned exactly what I said. I wonder why?
How is my "argument" stupid? Do you know Best? Um, what does he do? He doesn't know anything about restaurants, right? Lots of pro players are well known for doing other things. Forget the other dude from ASL like last season where they were talking about him owning a building and all that.. maybe Mini? I remember idra and incontrol on some team house interview talking about spending their extra time body building.. But maybe you're right, these guys literally do nothing else. They can't, right?
Me being a banker working 12 to 14 hour days is similar to that 16 hour day you're talking about for them, I have 1 hour one way commute, there's your 16. If I can do other things in my life, they can too. They do. Like I said, my friend was a pro for 6ish years and in that time learned XYZ to become a software engineer when he retired. Watch pro streams they even play other games at highish levels and some switch like a guy switched to HOTS.. wonder how that's possible with your model of these guy's life.
You're seemingly full on hard mode to misunderstand what the distaste is for. Nobody cares he sucks at investing.
Maybe you're not fully reading what I'm writing. I'll write it two more times for you. Nobody. Cares. He. Sucks. At. Investing.
Nobody cares he sucks at investing.
It's about the audience.
For your question, yes, I've read contracts, it's a daily thing. When I don't know something............ .. Omg what should I do? Maybe........... Ask?
What a concept.
You probably still didn't check out Faze, or Cuban. Takes literally 20 seconds of googling to see if this is distasteful to include your audience.
I'm not lynching anyone. It's just a fact that this isn't good. Nothing to it. I don't know the legalities of this in Korea. Doubt it's going to amount to anything.
Again. Really read this next sentence. Nobody cares he doesn't know how to invest.
With that knowledge, try to understand that it isn't about him investing.
What I've been doubting is that he didn't know it would be distasteful to share with his audience. His management, since he is unable to think, declines product ads for him all the time, I'm sure. They need a certain image etc and will decline stuff their brand doesn't want to be associated with. I work with this each day in reputational risk. So, they decline other stuff to show their audience, but just not this.. let's not read into it and just screw it.. let's go against protecting this gamer who knows nothing.
Not doubting he doesn't know how to invest.... Doubting he doesn't know what he can and shouldn't share with his audience.
Since you're of the opinion he just knows nothing and has people feed him and all, why wouldn't his team have schooled him on what to and not to say to an audience? Shouldn't they be more careful of this know-nothing slug that we need to live the rest of his life for him because he just SCs and can't do anything else.
I hope you understand that you're arguing against something that I'm not arguing. If you still disagree with my position that's fine, but at least disagree with me on whether it's okay or not to share pump and dump stock advice with an audience...
As I've said, I don't care if he spends his money on stocks or crypto or Pocari Sweat. I don't care how much he knows about those things. It's once you bring it to the audience, it becomes what I'm arguing/discussing.
On October 07 2021 16:33 Timebon3s wrote: So it’s unbelievable that flash invests in something he knows nothing about, but entirely reasonable that people invest their life savings in random crypto hyped by video game streamers?
It makes no sense he would invest in something he knows nothing about AND start sharing it with his audience. This is the issue, the distasteful part.
You mean like 99% of people who invest/gamble on crypto? Or people who buy stocks? Or pretty much everything that has to do with investing? It makes perfect sense, this is how the world of trading works.
On October 07 2021 16:33 Timebon3s wrote: So it’s unbelievable that flash invests in something he knows nothing about, but entirely reasonable that people invest their life savings in random crypto hyped by video game streamers?
It makes no sense he would invest in something he knows nothing about AND start sharing it with his audience. This is the issue, the distasteful part.
You mean like 99% of people who invest/gamble on crypto? Or people who buy stocks? Or pretty much everything that has to do with investing? It makes perfect sense, this is how the world of trading works.
No, I don't mean that.
I don't care that he invests without knowledge/info.
You didn't read what I said. Here, I'll write it again even though you quoted it.
It makes no sense he would invest in something he knows nothing AND start sharing it with his audience. This is the issue, the distasteful part.
You see a difference for what I'm saying and what you're trying to disagree with? You're disagreeing with something I'm not and have never said. You think I just care he is investing. I don't. It's investing, AND.. as well, also, +, sharing with the audience. How do you not see the difference? Maybe I'll make it like bullet points?
-He invests, he farts, he eats cereal. (This is what you think I have an issue with.)
-He invests and shares what he is investing in, which people know leads to pump and dump schemes, even though it didn't get there, it is distasteful because we know where it could go. (This is what I have an issue with.)
99 percent of people DO NOT have a big audience to share a new stock/crypto to invest in, now that you understand my issue is with sharing with the audience.
It is unequivocally not how the world of trading works. People have been caught trying to convince their audience to buy. It's happened with crypto.. see Faze and Mark Cuban, it's happened year after year with stocks, it's in the news all the time. Know Suze Orman the TV girl? Tells her audience to buy gold, dumps the stock, stock plummets, her audience loses money. This pump and dump is not new.
And for real this is not how the world of investing works. It does happen, but it isn't just how it works as a normal thing like you're saying, but that was before you understood that it's about sharing not doing.
HENCE his and other apologies. Are forgetting he is apologizing for this? He is admitting he was wrong........
On October 05 2021 15:21 jaytep wrote: Flash isn't new to all of this (business, monetizing himself). I'm a nobody, and I know to not do certain things on stream or to an audience.
This junk isn't new, too. Same stuff with Faze clan. They're being called out and being dropped from companies and sponsorships. Don't know if it is illegal, but it surely is trashy at best. Its a bit different, but same excuses as to them being stupid and innocent little rabbit cuties, we just didn't know!
It's odd to me when people do something, go pretty hard, then say they don't know shit about it.
I know he's got money, but to dump 300k into something you're now claiming you're just some dumb idiot, is, well, unbelievable. Possible, but unbelievable.
Last time I put a whole bunch of money into something I am naive about and claim to know nothing about, was never. I know people do dumb stuff with their money and all, and it isn't always right to compare. But, what are the chances that I generally know more than Flash, Bisu, Sea, Faze Kay, etc, about streaming? How did they all simultaneously not know, but I know...? *We* know.
Just they don't. It's just the ones to stand to gain from the pump and dump it was inevitably going to be, that don't know or understand. They're just naive to streaming morals and generic crypto knowledge that we all have now. Streaming isn't new, and crypto isn't new. Streaming rules and influencer morals isn't new and crypto scam coins aren't new.
If this isn't that bad of a thing to people, I want my favorite player reinstated. All he did was fix a couple games, I can stand for some WWE pre situated games being traded here and there. UpMagic needs to come back, just say he didn't really know what the money was for, he didn't understand, and bada bing bada boom, or whatever genies say, he's just a regular old you and me now and can't figure it all out. We should feel sorry for his lack of intelligence on the matter of how he stood to gain from a match being rigged.
Anyway, if we want to forgive dumb shit, let's all around forgive dumb shit. I want UpMagic back and I want him to be paid an 11 yr salary since the ban. He's just a naive little idiot like Flash. Just caught up in a situation that they benefited or would have benefitted from, but really didn't know. It would have been a happy accident if they made money....
You're comparing apples and oranges here and there. Firstly Match fixing and promoting crypto currency are very different things. Every pro-gamer should know match fixing is illegal, but most governments don't even have consistent laws on crypto currencies, and yes people have been investing in crypto currencies for a while, but I can guarantee you most of those investors have little or no idea how crypto currency pricing works and probably just treat them like a commodity. Secondly, groups of friends who all happen to get caught up in the same scheme isn't uncommon, scammers know what they are doing, and often target them specifically to abuse mob mentality (as in when someone sees all their friends are also signing up, they feel more secure and assume its not sketchy) so I'm not surprised that all these pro-gamers/streamers were naïve enough to get caught up in this, it happens even on Wall Street. Thirdly, Flash is not a businessman, he is a professional gamer, and like most professional gamers most of their money management is handled by their families. Flash's job as a pro-gamer is to practice for his matches and rehearse speeches thanking his sponsors after his games. This is an ideal target for these scammers. I get that some people like to enforce draconian as a preventative measure, but the legal system is designed for "punish and reform". How are we suppose to carry out the reform part when tribal community members don't even want to give people a second chance.
For your first part, yes, I'm comparing apples and oranges, since they're both fruits. They have way more in common than apples and subways. Match fixing, bad.. promoting coin this way, bad. Bad is the category, not that those two are the same actual thing. I'm glad you noticed I'm comparing apples to oranges.
I know a guy that was a progamer from um, 2004 to I think it was 2010 or 2011. They have way more say in the business side of things than you're trying to put off, he isn't a B team practice partner 12 year old. There's quite a few TL profiles noting players who negotiated deals and left teams because they were underused based on their contract and all different types of stuff that they had a hand in and a say in. Or, look at the LoL guys who basically run their show, and Overwatch pros as well.
I don't disagree their job is to play, practice, win, and be a face. You think LeBron just knows nothing about how to sell himself? When his manager says Nike is offering him 300 bucks for a commercial he's just like, well, I'm just a player, I guess I'll just do it... Flash just knows jack shit about stream sponsors etc? He has done appearances, interviews, maybe set up by managers, but he's just dumb and doesn't know what's going on? Managers just save time and find it all, it's actually an easy job in general and many players and actors and bands represent themselves..
Just because he's a pro gamer doesn't mean he knows nothing else. I'm a pro banker and I study language on the side and speak 5 atm. I play a few sports at competitive levels. You can know more than 1 thing.
Some of these guys are great chefs, athletes, my friend also was a great software bro while a pro gamer, and is now working in that field in gaming..
To your second point, sure, I don't think you're off base at all. However, you would have to believe in this scenario, that Flash is an idiot, and quite literally only knows StarCraft and literally nothing else.
If you believe that, it is what it is. I can't change your mind on it nor will I try then. I however don't. I think he is at minimum an average guy, who would be able to fathom a modern world where he can search engine something in 20 seconds and find an answer before dumping 300k in something your putting forth that he knows nothing about.
Like I have said, possible, but unlikely.
As for a second chance, is the match fixing coming more into play here now? Is my apples to oranges comparison off target? Savior, UpMagic, Luxury, go.go, and whoever the rest are I can't remember.. should.. get a second a chance, ...like... Flash?
Let's do it. I forgive Flash right now. Now bring back UpMagic.
You're honestly being ridiculous. Just because you know one pro-gamer that manages his own finances (whom you can't even really seem to name, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt) doesn't mean all pro-gamers do. I know for a fact most do not, and it makes sense, because unlike Overwatch or LoL, BW pros start at a very young age, its not uncommon for them to be playing professionally as young as age 15, are you really gonna tell me a 15 year old is capable of managing his finances? I would surprised if most 15 years would even have a real bank account let alone understand how the laws behind a cryptocurrency contract work. Secondly, you're "argument" that because you're a banker and is multilingual automatically means that broodwar pros should also be able to learn university level economics/finance in their free time is plain stupid. Kespa era broodwar was notorious for having ridiculous practice hours like 16 hours per day level practice hours. It's basically a full time job and a life commitment in many ways, there is no way for them to have the time to learn much else to any significant degree during that period of time. So when a successful player like flash decides to retire from the kespa style pro-gaming with a large amount of disposable income, you can bet that he/she would invest a portion of their money into something they might not understand but may turnover high returns. Thirdly, yes Lebron is a good at marketing himself, but a lot of athletes and public figures are not, its why they have PR managers. Celebrities use them, politicians use them, and yes KESPA teams also used them to market their players, its common practice really. You keep trying to bring up the few outliers but that's exactly what they are outliers. Hell even Conor McGregor has a PR manager. Fourthly, have you ever read a formal contract? Like go try to take a bank loan or something and have a read, but I can guarantee you the jargon can throw off a lot of people unfamiliar with the terminology and they would likely need to clarify a few questions with the banking staff or at the very least spend some time googling. Now try to imagine some veteran scam artist maybe approaching your mum or something showing her a chart of bitcoin prices or w/e and then smooth talking her into the idea of investing while guarantee a cost free way to hedge any risks. Do you really expect a pro-gamer's mum will instantly understand the fine details or legality on a cryptocurrency contract? Maybe your mum's a genius but I can tell you even veteran investors get caught in the fine details. I don't get why you seem so obsessed about lynching famous pro-gamers, but seriously are you even sure you know the whole story here?
I don't only know one progamer. Just one that I'm using as an example.
I can 'seem' to name him, nobody asked, I know him personally since I was 10 fr the same hometown, school, and sports. I won't name him however for his own privacy. If you believe me or not, it is irrelevant because even if I don't know anyone, my point still remains.
I never said all. Never, not once. I'm using almost 6 years of living in Korea and being around pro gamers I know personally before becoming pro gamers as my background. I don't know all, wouldn't ever suggest I do. Not sure why you're taking issue with 'all' when that has never been a part of this conversation.
I've noted that the person we are talking about, Flash, is not a 12 year old B team practice partner. Do you know how old Flash is? Do you know how in demand he is in the SC world? You know for a fact most do not? It only takes a little googling to find out that isn't true. Minus the fact that there's plenty of people that know pro players that quite literally have mentioned exactly what I said. I wonder why?
How is my "argument" stupid? Do you know Best? Um, what does he do? He doesn't know anything about restaurants, right? Lots of pro players are well known for doing other things. Forget the other dude from ASL like last season where they were talking about him owning a building and all that.. maybe Mini? I remember idra and incontrol on some team house interview talking about spending their extra time body building.. But maybe you're right, these guys literally do nothing else. They can't, right?
Me being a banker working 12 to 14 hour days is similar to that 16 hour day you're talking about for them, I have 1 hour one way commute, there's your 16. If I can do other things in my life, they can too. They do. Like I said, my friend was a pro for 6ish years and in that time learned XYZ to become a software engineer when he retired. Watch pro streams they even play other games at highish levels and some switch like a guy switched to HOTS.. wonder how that's possible with your model of these guy's life.
You're seemingly full on hard mode to misunderstand what the distaste is for. Nobody cares he sucks at investing.
Maybe you're not fully reading what I'm writing. I'll write it two more times for you. Nobody. Cares. He. Sucks. At. Investing.
Nobody cares he sucks at investing.
It's about the audience.
For your question, yes, I've read contracts, it's a daily thing. When I don't know something............ .. Omg what should I do? Maybe........... Ask?
What a concept.
You probably still didn't check out Faze, or Cuban. Takes literally 20 seconds of googling to see if this is distasteful to include your audience.
I'm not lynching anyone. It's just a fact that this isn't good. Nothing to it. I don't know the legalities of this in Korea. Doubt it's going to amount to anything.
Again. Really read this next sentence. Nobody cares he doesn't know how to invest.
With that knowledge, try to understand that it isn't about him investing.
What I've been doubting is that he didn't know it would be distasteful to share with his audience. His management, since he is unable to think, declines product ads for him all the time, I'm sure. They need a certain image etc and will decline stuff their brand doesn't want to be associated with. I work with this each day in reputational risk. So, they decline other stuff to show their audience, but just not this.. let's not read into it and just screw it.. let's go against protecting this gamer who knows nothing.
Not doubting he doesn't know how to invest.... Doubting he doesn't know what he can and shouldn't share with his audience.
Since you're of the opinion he just knows nothing and has people feed him and all, why wouldn't his team have schooled him on what to and not to say to an audience? Shouldn't they be more careful of this know-nothing slug that we need to live the rest of his life for him because he just SCs and can't do anything else.
I hope you understand that you're arguing against something that I'm not arguing. If you still disagree with my position that's fine, but at least disagree with me on whether it's okay or not to share pump and dump stock advice with an audience...
As I've said, I don't care if he spends his money on stocks or crypto or Pocari Sweat. I don't care how much he knows about those things. It's once you bring it to the audience, it becomes what I'm arguing/discussing.
The amount of BS coming out of your mouth is unbelievable. At this point I'm pretty sure you don't know these pro-gamers and I'm certain they don't know you. Pro-gamers "owning" a building or a restaurant doesn't mean they have spent their lives planning for this, it was almost certainly something like a family business or investment, that they are learning the ropes in their post gamer retirement years. I highly doubt they just bought a restaurant randomly off the streets and decided to run it themselves. Also you're idiotic point about working 12-14 hours as a banker is equal to a pro-gamer's 16 if you count commute, is stupid. You had the benefit of a full education presumably a university level degree or equivalent. They had to give up most of their high school education to pursue pro-gaming. There is a big difference. It is much much harder for a 25ish year old with a high school degree to transition into a normal office job. This is why most of these pro-gamers are either sticking to streaming or just taking over a family business or investing their money into a high yield commodity. You're whole argument of "I know this one guy or have a friend who is now a software engineer" doesn't valid the situation most pro-gamers experience these days. Not every pro practiced in a team house or stuck with streaming or made enough money to re-educate or come from a family with enough resources to carry them into a second career. Quite frankly you're just being a child and lazily grouping all pro-gamers into a single category. I know you don't have any real relation with these pros, or are you saying people should ask Best, Mini, Flash, etc if they heard of Jaytep just to prove you wrong? Don't bother responding Jaytep, I rather not read someone spouting demagoguery rather than facts or reason.
It makes no sense he would invest in something he knows nothing AND start sharing it with his audience. This is the issue, the distasteful part.
So if he invested in apple stock or index funds and said so on his stream, that would be just as “distasteful” as with this crypto thing?
If he was guaranteed a full refund and doesn't disclose that to his audience, then yes. His incentive to invest would increase manifold, but not that of his audience. That's a form of false advertising because Flash's audience would be getting a much worse deal than him.
On October 09 2021 17:45 Timebon3s wrote: Ok, so it really doesn’t matter then. It’s just a witch-hunt like I thought from the beginning.
Why’s it a witch-hunt?
It was mentioned earlier in the thread, I’m unsure if it was confirmed either way, although subsequently have asked, that Flash had his investment guaranteed/protected.
There is a world of difference between pushing an investment product to your audience when you’re also at risk of losing all your money, versus when you are not and don’t disclose it.
As I said I dipped into this thread in its early stages, where it was suggested but not confirmed that this was the case for Flash.
End of the day it’s a nascent industry, completely devoid of professional standards. Mistakes will be made but people need to use their common sense that they earn a living streaming because many people hero worship them, and be careful of how they wield that power.
I’ve heard of much worse where popular personalities clearly intentionally abuse their power and the parasocial relationship they have with their audience, I don’t see this as being anything malicious in the same vein.
On October 07 2021 16:33 Timebon3s wrote: So it’s unbelievable that flash invests in something he knows nothing about, but entirely reasonable that people invest their life savings in random crypto hyped by video game streamers?
No.
There isn't one place where I said this was the case.
It's that he didn't know that using his audience would be an issue.
Nobody, like I've said, cares that he invests in this or that. It makes no sense he would invest in something he knows nothing about AND start sharing it with his audience. This is the issue, the distasteful part.
The people investing their life savings aren't convincing others to do it too, unless they are, then it's bad and distasteful. Obviously.
Investing is always on the person investing. I stopped informing people about crypto since its a volatile market but with any investment you make its always your own fault if you lose it. Never the person that got you into it. You can try to pick up the point that Flash is someone with influence and reach but it applies to him still.
If Vitalik Buterin himself told me to go allin on a crypto project, I'd still do my own research before and if I lose all of it thats still on me. People need to learn that.
On October 07 2021 16:33 Timebon3s wrote: So it’s unbelievable that flash invests in something he knows nothing about, but entirely reasonable that people invest their life savings in random crypto hyped by video game streamers?
No.
There isn't one place where I said this was the case.
It's that he didn't know that using his audience would be an issue.
Nobody, like I've said, cares that he invests in this or that. It makes no sense he would invest in something he knows nothing about AND start sharing it with his audience. This is the issue, the distasteful part.
The people investing their life savings aren't convincing others to do it too, unless they are, then it's bad and distasteful. Obviously.
Investing is always on the person investing. I stopped informing people about crypto since its a volatile market but with any investment you make its always your own fault if you lose it. Never the person that got you into it. You can try to pick up the point that Flash is someone with influence and reach but it applies to him still.
If Vitalik Buterin himself told me to go allin on a crypto project, I'd still do my own research before and if I lose all of it thats still on me. People need to learn that.
Sorry but this "it's your own fault" argument is not a strong one - in general and, depending on where you come from, legally. In Germany for example, influencers now have to label advertisement as such. And for a good reason because they have stakes in it and others need the information that advertising a product might have other reasons than "this product is good". That does't mean I don't agree with the sentiment that people should be more critical and do their own research. However, that doesn't excuse advertisement with ulterior motives. Those motives need to be known in order for the person to make an informed decision. Who are you going to believe and where do you get your much needed information for your own research from if nobody discloses their motives? It doesn't surprise though that this is a common argument of justification coming from the "crypto community" as it's a form of investment that depends upon some people losing money in order to make money.
//Note: Not commenting on Flash here because I don't have enough non-contradictory information on what he did. Just a general statement.
On October 07 2021 16:33 Timebon3s wrote: So it’s unbelievable that flash invests in something he knows nothing about, but entirely reasonable that people invest their life savings in random crypto hyped by video game streamers?
No.
There isn't one place where I said this was the case.
It's that he didn't know that using his audience would be an issue.
Nobody, like I've said, cares that he invests in this or that. It makes no sense he would invest in something he knows nothing about AND start sharing it with his audience. This is the issue, the distasteful part.
The people investing their life savings aren't convincing others to do it too, unless they are, then it's bad and distasteful. Obviously.
Investing is always on the person investing. I stopped informing people about crypto since its a volatile market but with any investment you make its always your own fault if you lose it. Never the person that got you into it. You can try to pick up the point that Flash is someone with influence and reach but it applies to him still.
If Vitalik Buterin himself told me to go allin on a crypto project, I'd still do my own research before and if I lose all of it thats still on me. People need to learn that.
Sorry but this "it's your own fault" argument is not a strong one - in general and, depending on where you come from, legally. In Germany for example, influencers now have to label advertisement as such. And for a good reason because they have stakes in it and others need the information that advertising a product might have other reasons than "this product is good". That does't mean I don't agree with the sentiment that people should be more critical and do their own research. However, that doesn't excuse advertisement with ulterior motives. Those motives need to be known in order for the person to make an informed decision. Who are you going to believe and where do you get your much needed information for your own research from if nobody discloses their motives? It doesn't surprise though that this is a common argument of justification coming from the "crypto community" as it's a form of investment that depends upon some people losing money in order to make money.
//Note: Not commenting on Flash here because I don't have enough non-contradictory information on what he did. Just a general statement.
I am from Germany and Flash didnt get paid for it right? No reason to label it. You can argue his investment being secure is a form of payment. If I am telling my viewers I am invested in ETH and someone goes all in and it drops to Zero I still didnt have to label it.
Actually for me its more about a general ruling instead of an argument. Investments are always your own choice. My opinion at least
On October 07 2021 16:33 Timebon3s wrote: So it’s unbelievable that flash invests in something he knows nothing about, but entirely reasonable that people invest their life savings in random crypto hyped by video game streamers?
No.
There isn't one place where I said this was the case.
It's that he didn't know that using his audience would be an issue.
Nobody, like I've said, cares that he invests in this or that. It makes no sense he would invest in something he knows nothing about AND start sharing it with his audience. This is the issue, the distasteful part.
The people investing their life savings aren't convincing others to do it too, unless they are, then it's bad and distasteful. Obviously.
Investing is always on the person investing. I stopped informing people about crypto since its a volatile market but with any investment you make its always your own fault if you lose it. Never the person that got you into it. You can try to pick up the point that Flash is someone with influence and reach but it applies to him still.
If Vitalik Buterin himself told me to go allin on a crypto project, I'd still do my own research before and if I lose all of it thats still on me. People need to learn that.
Sorry but this "it's your own fault" argument is not a strong one - in general and, depending on where you come from, legally. In Germany for example, influencers now have to label advertisement as such. And for a good reason because they have stakes in it and others need the information that advertising a product might have other reasons than "this product is good". That does't mean I don't agree with the sentiment that people should be more critical and do their own research. However, that doesn't excuse advertisement with ulterior motives. Those motives need to be known in order for the person to make an informed decision. Who are you going to believe and where do you get your much needed information for your own research from if nobody discloses their motives? It doesn't surprise though that this is a common argument of justification coming from the "crypto community" as it's a form of investment that depends upon some people losing money in order to make money.
//Note: Not commenting on Flash here because I don't have enough non-contradictory information on what he did. Just a general statement.
I am from Germany and Flash didnt get paid for it right? No reason to label it. You can argue his investment being secure is a form of payment. If I am telling my viewers I am invested in ETH and someone goes all in and it drops to Zero I still didnt have to label it.
Actually for me its more about a general ruling instead of an argument. Investments are always your own choice. My opinion at least
Well, whether Flash's investment was secure is the point of contention as far as I understood. If it was secure then yes, I would definitely consider it a form of payment. But as I said, I feel like I don't know enough about Flash's case to make a judgement. If you are investing without payment or other advantages given to you and tell that your viewers I guess that is ok. Depending on your reach/influence I still find it questionable to do it. Obviously it's everyone's own choice but if you are a trusted source for many you could intentionally try to play on low human instincts (not saying that you specifically are!) to your own advantage as it is most likely good for you if others invest into something you are already invested in. It's a grey area I would say.
On October 05 2021 15:21 jaytep wrote: Flash isn't new to all of this (business, monetizing himself). I'm a nobody, and I know to not do certain things on stream or to an audience.
This junk isn't new, too. Same stuff with Faze clan. They're being called out and being dropped from companies and sponsorships. Don't know if it is illegal, but it surely is trashy at best. Its a bit different, but same excuses as to them being stupid and innocent little rabbit cuties, we just didn't know!
It's odd to me when people do something, go pretty hard, then say they don't know shit about it.
I know he's got money, but to dump 300k into something you're now claiming you're just some dumb idiot, is, well, unbelievable. Possible, but unbelievable.
Last time I put a whole bunch of money into something I am naive about and claim to know nothing about, was never. I know people do dumb stuff with their money and all, and it isn't always right to compare. But, what are the chances that I generally know more than Flash, Bisu, Sea, Faze Kay, etc, about streaming? How did they all simultaneously not know, but I know...? *We* know.
Just they don't. It's just the ones to stand to gain from the pump and dump it was inevitably going to be, that don't know or understand. They're just naive to streaming morals and generic crypto knowledge that we all have now. Streaming isn't new, and crypto isn't new. Streaming rules and influencer morals isn't new and crypto scam coins aren't new.
If this isn't that bad of a thing to people, I want my favorite player reinstated. All he did was fix a couple games, I can stand for some WWE pre situated games being traded here and there. UpMagic needs to come back, just say he didn't really know what the money was for, he didn't understand, and bada bing bada boom, or whatever genies say, he's just a regular old you and me now and can't figure it all out. We should feel sorry for his lack of intelligence on the matter of how he stood to gain from a match being rigged.
Anyway, if we want to forgive dumb shit, let's all around forgive dumb shit. I want UpMagic back and I want him to be paid an 11 yr salary since the ban. He's just a naive little idiot like Flash. Just caught up in a situation that they benefited or would have benefitted from, but really didn't know. It would have been a happy accident if they made money....
You're comparing apples and oranges here and there. Firstly Match fixing and promoting crypto currency are very different things. Every pro-gamer should know match fixing is illegal, but most governments don't even have consistent laws on crypto currencies, and yes people have been investing in crypto currencies for a while, but I can guarantee you most of those investors have little or no idea how crypto currency pricing works and probably just treat them like a commodity. Secondly, groups of friends who all happen to get caught up in the same scheme isn't uncommon, scammers know what they are doing, and often target them specifically to abuse mob mentality (as in when someone sees all their friends are also signing up, they feel more secure and assume its not sketchy) so I'm not surprised that all these pro-gamers/streamers were naïve enough to get caught up in this, it happens even on Wall Street. Thirdly, Flash is not a businessman, he is a professional gamer, and like most professional gamers most of their money management is handled by their families. Flash's job as a pro-gamer is to practice for his matches and rehearse speeches thanking his sponsors after his games. This is an ideal target for these scammers. I get that some people like to enforce draconian as a preventative measure, but the legal system is designed for "punish and reform". How are we suppose to carry out the reform part when tribal community members don't even want to give people a second chance.
For your first part, yes, I'm comparing apples and oranges, since they're both fruits. They have way more in common than apples and subways. Match fixing, bad.. promoting coin this way, bad. Bad is the category, not that those two are the same actual thing. I'm glad you noticed I'm comparing apples to oranges.
I know a guy that was a progamer from um, 2004 to I think it was 2010 or 2011. They have way more say in the business side of things than you're trying to put off, he isn't a B team practice partner 12 year old. There's quite a few TL profiles noting players who negotiated deals and left teams because they were underused based on their contract and all different types of stuff that they had a hand in and a say in. Or, look at the LoL guys who basically run their show, and Overwatch pros as well.
I don't disagree their job is to play, practice, win, and be a face. You think LeBron just knows nothing about how to sell himself? When his manager says Nike is offering him 300 bucks for a commercial he's just like, well, I'm just a player, I guess I'll just do it... Flash just knows jack shit about stream sponsors etc? He has done appearances, interviews, maybe set up by managers, but he's just dumb and doesn't know what's going on? Managers just save time and find it all, it's actually an easy job in general and many players and actors and bands represent themselves..
Just because he's a pro gamer doesn't mean he knows nothing else. I'm a pro banker and I study language on the side and speak 5 atm. I play a few sports at competitive levels. You can know more than 1 thing.
Some of these guys are great chefs, athletes, my friend also was a great software bro while a pro gamer, and is now working in that field in gaming..
To your second point, sure, I don't think you're off base at all. However, you would have to believe in this scenario, that Flash is an idiot, and quite literally only knows StarCraft and literally nothing else.
If you believe that, it is what it is. I can't change your mind on it nor will I try then. I however don't. I think he is at minimum an average guy, who would be able to fathom a modern world where he can search engine something in 20 seconds and find an answer before dumping 300k in something your putting forth that he knows nothing about.
Like I have said, possible, but unlikely.
As for a second chance, is the match fixing coming more into play here now? Is my apples to oranges comparison off target? Savior, UpMagic, Luxury, go.go, and whoever the rest are I can't remember.. should.. get a second a chance, ...like... Flash?
Let's do it. I forgive Flash right now. Now bring back UpMagic.
You're honestly being ridiculous. Just because you know one pro-gamer that manages his own finances (whom you can't even really seem to name, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt) doesn't mean all pro-gamers do. I know for a fact most do not, and it makes sense, because unlike Overwatch or LoL, BW pros start at a very young age, its not uncommon for them to be playing professionally as young as age 15, are you really gonna tell me a 15 year old is capable of managing his finances? I would surprised if most 15 years would even have a real bank account let alone understand how the laws behind a cryptocurrency contract work. Secondly, you're "argument" that because you're a banker and is multilingual automatically means that broodwar pros should also be able to learn university level economics/finance in their free time is plain stupid. Kespa era broodwar was notorious for having ridiculous practice hours like 16 hours per day level practice hours. It's basically a full time job and a life commitment in many ways, there is no way for them to have the time to learn much else to any significant degree during that period of time. So when a successful player like flash decides to retire from the kespa style pro-gaming with a large amount of disposable income, you can bet that he/she would invest a portion of their money into something they might not understand but may turnover high returns. Thirdly, yes Lebron is a good at marketing himself, but a lot of athletes and public figures are not, its why they have PR managers. Celebrities use them, politicians use them, and yes KESPA teams also used them to market their players, its common practice really. You keep trying to bring up the few outliers but that's exactly what they are outliers. Hell even Conor McGregor has a PR manager. Fourthly, have you ever read a formal contract? Like go try to take a bank loan or something and have a read, but I can guarantee you the jargon can throw off a lot of people unfamiliar with the terminology and they would likely need to clarify a few questions with the banking staff or at the very least spend some time googling. Now try to imagine some veteran scam artist maybe approaching your mum or something showing her a chart of bitcoin prices or w/e and then smooth talking her into the idea of investing while guarantee a cost free way to hedge any risks. Do you really expect a pro-gamer's mum will instantly understand the fine details or legality on a cryptocurrency contract? Maybe your mum's a genius but I can tell you even veteran investors get caught in the fine details. I don't get why you seem so obsessed about lynching famous pro-gamers, but seriously are you even sure you know the whole story here?
Just quoting this to say... Excellent reply. Our professional banker friend apparently isn't as worldly, nor as financially savvy as he thinks.
And who says 'I'm a pro banker' anyways? As opposed to... An amateur banker? Either your a banker or you aren't - or maybe, you play one on the internet? It's not for me to say, but I have my suspicions.
It’s fascinating to see how quickly crypto has turned regular people into financial shills. Each altcoin is accompanied by a legion of dedicated “moonbro” shills, all dutifully repeating the same rhetoric over and over and over. I can’t quite explain why, but it makes me sad. It debases us. It’s the victory of greed and FOMO over dignity and self-respect. Every man becoming a walking commercial.
Thank you for providing all of this info jinjin, you’re the real MVP
On November 03 2021 02:39 Immaterial wrote: It’s fascinating to see how quickly crypto has turned regular people into financial shills. Each altcoin is accompanied by a legion of dedicated “moonbro” shills, all dutifully repeating the same rhetoric over and over and over. I can’t quite explain why, but it makes me sad. It debases us. It’s the victory of greed and FOMO over dignity and self-respect. Every man becoming a walking commercial.
Thank you for providing all of this info jinjin, you’re the real MVP
i think you should keep your opinion to yourself because it's really none of your business how people decide to invest the money. flash and bisu weren't on stream saying "hey everyone buy this coin!!".
you talk about dignity and self-respect but you cook rabbit stew in a crockpot.
On November 03 2021 02:39 Immaterial wrote: It’s fascinating to see how quickly crypto has turned regular people into financial shills. Each altcoin is accompanied by a legion of dedicated “moonbro” shills, all dutifully repeating the same rhetoric over and over and over. I can’t quite explain why, but it makes me sad. It debases us. It’s the victory of greed and FOMO over dignity and self-respect. Every man becoming a walking commercial.
Thank you for providing all of this info jinjin, you’re the real MVP
i think you should keep your opinion to yourself because it's really none of your business how people decide to invest the money. flash and bisu weren't on stream saying "hey everyone buy this coin!!".
you talk about dignity and self-respect but you cook rabbit stew in a crockpot.
He’s not really wrong on much of the crypto world to be fair.
I don’t think he’s taking about Flash and/or Bisu here, but people in general. Also this is a forum and people are allowed to share their views on things, rabbit stew or not.
lmao I totally forgot about that, I was still in highschool when I wrote it iirc. Very cringe but not especially relevant to the thread. Earlier on in the thread I expressed my more detailed opinion on this situation, my last post was more of a general observation. Flash exercised poor judgement but I’m not too upset about it overall.
I think it would be delusional for anyone — including crypto enthusiasts — to deny that the crypto market has lead to a lot of sketchy (& pathological) behavior from people trying to generate hype for their coin of choice. I’m not just referring to the Flash situation, I’ve seen it both online and irl. My opinion is that it’s a disconcerting and vaguely dystopian trend, but you are by all means welcome to view it differently.
Guemchi has been back recently also. Was he involved in this scandal aswell? I think it's about to choose the right moment for comeback to minimize public "roast". It might be good time to comeback for bisu right before Christmas and JD stream hype.
On December 10 2021 23:11 marwin wrote: Guemchi has been back recently also. Was he involved in this scandal aswell? I think it's about to choose the right moment for comeback to minimize public "roast". It might be good time to comeback for bisu right before Christmas and JD stream hype.
Yeah he was. Did an apology stream just like Sea, then carried on. No problemo.
I think best for Bisu comeback is a showmatch with no other than JD. People would be like, "wow the old rivalry is back, this is so cool, who cares about that shit coin anyway".
On December 10 2021 23:11 marwin wrote: Guemchi has been back recently also. Was he involved in this scandal aswell? I think it's about to choose the right moment for comeback to minimize public "roast". It might be good time to comeback for bisu right before Christmas and JD stream hype.