New carrier micro was discovered on Ygosu korean forums the other day. This involves having binding an probe/another unit with carrier group, and using SH micro.
Carriers normally target 1 unit at a time but this method allows interceptors to target multiple unit at the same time. SH micro can be used while moving.
How SH micro changes carrier behavior
1. Interceptors Stand-by inside carrier If you press hold within range 8, interceptor will attack one by one. Unlike doing single target fire under normal circumstances, interceptors will spread it's damage like other air unit sh micro
2. Interceptors Deployed mode When bound with probe, when pressing S key, interceptors will not retreat back
3.Intercepors stand-by outside of carrier (leashed mode) when bound with probe, when pressing S key, interceptors will retreat back into carrier and changes to stand-by mode inside carrier
Mechanics behind SH micro:
When you use H micro when interceptors are inside carrier to make it deployed, interceptors will spread damage, and since there is no specific attack target, normally, interceptors will not respond to H key and will go back inside carrier
However, when you press S key repeatedly, only interceptors that are standing by outside of carrier will go back inside carrier, and pressing H again will spread the damage
Results:
Carriers have 8 range, but spreads its damage around instead of hitting single target+overkill
FBH tests on time to kill 200 SCVs result:
Normal A-move: 2 minute 35 seconds
SH micro: 1 minute 22 seconds
Uses:
-According to FBH, very useful micro to know, but situationally good. -Will be useful vs multiple targets with low range. Situations like vs wraith/scourges , vs bio, vs hydra, when harassing mineral line. -When you need to kill mass amount of units, this micro will be superior to regular micro. -Will rarely be good vs goliaths -Unlike total recall, which is situational and takes time to set up, this micro can be done with very little setup and done freely when situation allows it to do so, so FBH thinks that this will be lot more applicable -ASL11 spoilers: + Show Spoiler +
FBH mentions that this would probably have changed Mini vs Mong outcome to Mini's win if Mini knew this micro ahead of time
I hope this actually gets used more than total recall. Vs wraiths you'd often see people get a few corsairs- I wonder if that's no longer necessary with this glitch? Seems slightly more impactful than total recall but not game breaking or anything.
Bisu has been using this in his stream today. He flew over a command center and started spamming stop + something else, so that SCVs get killed more quickly. However, I did not have the feeling (subjectively) that SCV would die faster.
This will be very strong for harrasment of SCV line as this is where cariers suffered most. Now you will not only lose the CC in 3 seconds but also all scvs in 6 ^_^
On April 21 2021 19:26 jinjin5000 wrote:Tl;dr: less range, more damage
It is not really "less range though, but only that Carriers can only switch targets within their 8 attack range, no matter what micro is used. Moving away from targets as you normally would is simply impractical and actually counter-productive if there are mass targets with low HP that you actually want to keep within close range to enable the fast target switching without interceptors returning to the hangar.
On April 21 2021 20:15 ArmadA[NaS] wrote: I hope this actually gets used more than total recall. Vs wraiths you'd often see people get a few corsairs- I wonder if that's no longer necessary with this glitch? Seems slightly more impactful than total recall but not game breaking or anything.
The main use seems to be against marine medic all ins, and against scourge if that ever comes up. It also lets a mineral line be destroyed even faster. But you're right: Carriers are now stronger against wraiths in straight up slugfests.
Crazy that this was discovered just recently. The game that keeps on giving, but I can already feel the pain lol. That test against the marines using SH micro was pretty insane. Thanks for the translation jinjin.
Am I the only one who is thinking it wouldn't actually help that much against M&M? It seems like it would help vs pure Marines, but only doing 8 damage sporadically to every Marine seems like it would make it easier for the medics to heal.
On April 22 2021 02:33 ruhtraeel wrote: Am I the only one who is thinking it wouldn't actually help that much against M&M? It seems like it would help vs pure Marines, but only doing 8 damage sporadically to every Marine seems like it would make it easier for the medics to heal.
Fbh demonstrated this on stream. Significant difference even with medic
On April 22 2021 02:33 ruhtraeel wrote: Am I the only one who is thinking it wouldn't actually help that much against M&M? It seems like it would help vs pure Marines, but only doing 8 damage sporadically to every Marine seems like it would make it easier for the medics to heal.
On April 22 2021 02:33 ruhtraeel wrote: Am I the only one who is thinking it wouldn't actually help that much against M&M? It seems like it would help vs pure Marines, but only doing 8 damage sporadically to every Marine seems like it would make it easier for the medics to heal.
I feel like this won't help much vs goliath, or can even make it worse. If every interceptor attacks a different gol, they might end up not killing any, while the carriers have to stay too close to the goliaths. May be a different story when combined with storm though.
Why would this be beneficial for M&M but not mass Goliaths? Most of the time when you go Carriers there are 1 million Goliaths. I think this would help a lot against Goliaths also.
On April 22 2021 12:53 Optimate wrote: Why would this be beneficial for M&M but not mass Goliaths? Most of the time when you go Carriers there are 1 million Goliaths. I think this would help a lot against Goliaths also.
because if you get close enough to do this vs goliaths the goliaths will snipe carriers more easily
On April 22 2021 11:03 TMNT wrote: I feel like this won't help much vs goliath, or can even make it worse. If every interceptor attacks a different gol, they might end up not killing any, while the carriers have to stay too close to the goliaths. May be a different story when combined with storm though.
I think it makes a significant difference but depends on the armor upgrade as well.
On April 22 2021 11:03 TMNT wrote: I feel like this won't help much vs goliath, or can even make it worse. If every interceptor attacks a different gol, they might end up not killing any, while the carriers have to stay too close to the goliaths. May be a different story when combined with storm though.
The problem is they ususally have at least 5+ carriers, and terrran barely has upgrades for bio units or air units in TvP matchup. So it would be much easier against some odd carrier counter build (bio rush, secret mass wraiths, vulture tank big timing attack) and crazy good with worker harrassment (not just backstab to kill his CCs but also workers, especially on some maps with air space) since they can spread the damage to many units at the same time.
On April 22 2021 00:49 outscar wrote: Holy shit, that's what Stork was hiding since motherfucking 2007 amirite?
Can you elaborate on that?
Stork is known as the best carrier user in the pro scene, maybe not as much these days but his carriers in like 2007-2011 were basically unbeatable for most terrans so I assume they're making a point that he knew about this and hid it hence why he was so good.
On April 22 2021 00:49 outscar wrote: Holy shit, that's what Stork was hiding since motherfucking 2007 amirite?
Can you elaborate on that?
Stork is known as the best carrier user in the pro scene, maybe not as much these days but his carriers in like 2007-2011 were basically unbeatable for most terrans so I assume they're making a point that he knew about this and hid it hence why he was so good.
He was so abusive on them, and then combo'd with maps like Katrina... I actually found myself rooting for Flash against him. The mistakes we make in youth.
In PvZ I don't think this is going to change things significantly, but in the extremely rare case that carriers become useful it could certainly have an impact on the outcome. In PvT however this is nothing to sneeze at. Just the fact alone that an entire SCV line can be erased so much faster (watch FBH's video to see the difference) could increase carrier lethality by a lot. It also potentially makes m&m builds that counter prematurely discovered carrier builds much weaker. Against wraiths it could also be useful. Against goliaths however I don't think it'll make a meaningful difference, because in that scenario it's very important for carriers to stay alive, and SH micro puts them at significant risk.
On April 22 2021 19:22 Magic Powers wrote: In PvZ I don't think this is going to change things significantly, but in the extremely rare case that carriers become useful it could certainly have an impact on the outcome. In PvT however this is nothing to sneeze at. Just the fact alone that an entire SCV line can be erased so much faster (watch FBH's video to see the difference) could increase carrier lethality by a lot. It also potentially makes m&m builds that counter prematurely discovered carrier builds much weaker. Against wraiths it could also be useful. Against goliaths however I don't think it'll make a meaningful difference, because in that scenario it's very important for carriers to stay alive, and SH micro puts them at significant risk.
actually it is most significant in PvZ imho; in terms of fighting and unit compositions - the only thing why it hardly matters is that Carriers are a fringe unit in PvZ (on ground maps)
m&m builds vs carriers are usually extremely rare; wraiths builds a bit less rare but also very rare
It is good vs what you described and I agree that vs goliaths specifically the old style will be used due to bigger range and one shotting gols
On April 22 2021 21:16 Highgamer wrote: Imagine if some day someone finds out how to do this kind of anti-overkill/smart targeting with sieged tanks...
People have figured it out. It's called "focus fire" No but seriously, that's what every good terran has been doing for many years in every matchup.
Is there a vod of this method being used while going scouted 2base carrier vs terran who goes for marine medic counter? FBH's video showed it's very effective in larger numbers but typically you would only have 4 carriers when moving out (or even only two if you know it's scouted). And usually mm is ment to kill interceptors rather than carriers.
On April 22 2021 21:16 Highgamer wrote: Imagine if some day someone finds out how to do this kind of anti-overkill/smart targeting with sieged tanks...
People have figured it out. It's called "focus fire" No but seriously, that's what every good terran has been doing for many years in every matchup.
Thanks for the breaking news... but the point of my thought was obviously a simple technique like the S/H-spam to make the tanks do it 'by themselves' and with super-human precision/distribution, somewhat as in the carrier-micro-trick this thread is about. I meant it ironcally btw, as something that better not come true, because such a technique would actually break the game.
And I would say "focus fire" is the wrong expression here even though it's commonly used... because if you have more than 2-3 tanks (or something like that) sieged, focussing their fire is the last thing you want because of the overkill on almost any unit. Rather the problem is that tanks focus their fire too much if left alone. Focus firing is what you do with marines if they're all shooting at different utralisks and you tell them to all fire at the same one. With tanks, you'd want the perfect distribution of their core-damage and siege-damage to kill or damage as many enemy units as possible, depending on the situation. So what those good Terrans do by focussing enemy units with small groups of tanks is effectively spreading fire and thus increasing the damage that is dealt (no?).
On April 22 2021 21:16 Highgamer wrote: Imagine if some day someone finds out how to do this kind of anti-overkill/smart targeting with sieged tanks...
People have figured it out. It's called "focus fire" No but seriously, that's what every good terran has been doing for many years in every matchup.
Thanks for the breaking news... but the point of my thought was obviously a simple technique like the S/H-spam to make the tanks do it 'by themselves' and with super-human precision/distribution, somewhat as in the carrier-micro-trick this thread is about. I meant it ironcally btw, as something that better not come true, because such a technique would actually break the game.
And I would say "focus fire" is the wrong expression here even though it's commonly used... because if you have more than 2-3 tanks (or something like that) sieged, focussing their fire is the last thing you want because of the overkill on almost any unit. Rather the problem is that tanks focus their fire too much if left alone. Focus firing is what you do with marines if they're all shooting at different utralisks and you tell them to all fire at the same one. With tanks, you'd want the perfect distribution of their core-damage and siege-damage to kill or damage as many enemy units as possible, depending on the situation. So what those good Terrans do by focussing enemy units with small groups of tanks is effectively spreading fire and thus increasing the damage that is dealt (no?).
Pretty much. In TvP siege tank fire should typically be directed against dragoons/ht's. In TvZ it should be directed against lurkers/hydras. It should also generally be directed against units that aren't next to other terran units. So there are a bunch of applications for this. That's why I think the term "focus fire" is apt, as the goal is to concentrate fire on a certain group/type of units, or away from others. Of course the focus shouldn't be excessive.
This is so cool, that we still get to see new tricks in this game after such a long time. It will make carriers stronger in certain situations but won't change too much I guess in the big picture as far as balance goes.
Great to see Protoss getting stronger, I don't even remember last time they won KSL/ASL. It's sad that the map makers literally has to make Protoss favored maps for them to win something.
I have been absolutely diminished mentally and I come here to freshen up and this is so amazing to see. Bw and the many enthusiasts around is for sure a lifesaver! Thanks for the translation jinjin much appreciated as always!
This is insane vs workers, we need to see how efficient this type of micro is vs gols tho. If you could hold pos and hit the closest gols to you without needing to a click them (and risk miss clicking and moving ur cars closer to them by accident) it could be completely game changing.
In terms of the integrity of the game, i dunno how i feel about the discovery tbh. It makes carrier microing so much easier..
I don't understand why grouped with probe specifically. Because the probe can be trapped or is cheapest (ignoring lost mining time) or is there some other reason?
On April 23 2021 06:40 Dangermousecatdog wrote: I don't understand why grouped with probe specifically. Because the probe can be trapped or is cheapest (ignoring lost mining time) or is there some other reason?
It works with any other unit, too. FBH tried it with a lurker during testing and later with a probe in real games, it worked either way.
On April 23 2021 06:40 Dangermousecatdog wrote: I don't understand why grouped with probe specifically. Because the probe can be trapped or is cheapest (ignoring lost mining time) or is there some other reason?
You just need to bind with a different unit, and probe is the cheapest way to do that. Also, in PvZ, they usually trap a probe within 2 pylons to bind with group of corsairs.
It’d be interesting to see this tested against a Terran ball.
Say 12 carriers vs 30 goliaths or so. It’d be interesting to see how the carriers did in a straight up fight using this micro technique where you can target multiple gollies at once.
On April 23 2021 03:27 Bonyth wrote: You guys are overly optimistic about this, it will change little to nothing.
I think you are underly optimistic about this. Maybe bio has stopped being viable against Carriers in 1v1? The video makes it look like a huge difference in carriers vs bio.
On April 23 2021 03:27 Bonyth wrote: You guys are overly optimistic about this, it will change little to nothing.
I think you are underly optimistic about this. Maybe bio has stopped being viable against Carriers in 1v1? The video makes it look like a huge difference in carriers vs bio.
Bisu is using it in the Ultimate Battle right now, and it looks incredibly strong.
Fomos is reporting that Artosis has taken FBH hostage in a Starbucks bathroom and is demanding $200,000 in unmarked small bills as well as a phone call with Blizzard HQ for this unthinkable betrayal of the Terran race.
On April 23 2021 20:04 oBlade wrote: Fomos is reporting that Artosis has taken FBH hostage in a Starbucks bathroom and is demanding $200,000 in unmarked small bills as well as a phone call with Blizzard HQ for this unthinkable betrayal of the Terran race.
On April 23 2021 23:18 Cele wrote: Will this make carriers make more viable pvz, even in high level games?
I think so. Other than base trading when the carriers go across the map, what do you do? In the fbh video, he showed them shredding marines and I think they'd do very similarly to hydras.
of course, the question really is how do you get to a ball of carriers without dying in pvz, but maybe late game we'll see more carriers used.
plague --> hydras / scourge since carriers cannot move because u order them to stop or hold position to kill incoming scourgue (and hydras), zerg uses this time to move hydras under carriers with no HP, taking them down quite fast. If u move with carriers, u die to scourge
On April 24 2021 00:35 oBlade wrote: Protoss are actually allowed to make Carriers and Corsairs at the same time and one of those is great at killing scourge.
On April 24 2021 00:35 oBlade wrote: Protoss are actually allowed to make Carriers and Corsairs at the same time and one of those is great at killing scourge.
On April 25 2021 04:08 Timebon3s wrote: Wasn't total recall also supposed to change the game entirely?
Seen it once in a progame since.
It did change it. Protoss kinda abandoned Arbiters and started going mass Speed Shuttles instead
On April 23 2021 20:04 oBlade wrote: Fomos is reporting that Artosis has taken FBH hostage in a Starbucks bathroom and is demanding $200,000 in unmarked small bills as well as a phone call with Blizzard HQ for this unthinkable betrayal of the Terran race.
Haha, if i could give you a Like i would have. On another note - its time for Blizzard to fix the Valkyrie bug, where they start to not shoot their full volleys or some of them not shoot at all in high numbers or games with maxed armies/alot of building and stuff. I've read the SC:R prerelease patch notes and it was there, but later they decided its would maybe break existing game balance and opted against it and it got scrapped for the full release 1.18 patch.
EPT
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