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[ShowMatch] Foreign All-Star vs Korean Gamer - Page 3

Forum Index > BW General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 9 10 11 Next All
Cruiser0929
Profile Joined December 2019
516 Posts
April 11 2021 23:41 GMT
#41
Hi guys! A new video has been uploaded to StarCastTV!
Today's video is a showmatch series of Foreign All-Star vs Rush and Sorry!
Cast by Scan!
Thank you for watching

If you enjoyed it, please subscribe and like!
And please write comments for Caster who is trying hard for Starcraft fans!

Your support will greatly help StarCastTV produce better content and increase production value.
https://www.patreon.com/starcasttv



If you want to contribute to Show Match, you can contribute through Matcherino
https://matcherino.com/tournaments/30335/
Duke_nk
Profile Joined April 2020
38 Posts
April 12 2021 04:23 GMT
#42
I think it would be fairer to have a 1v7 team melee foreign allstars
LfunkGG
Profile Joined February 2019
78 Posts
April 12 2021 08:17 GMT
#43
the skill gap is sad
M3t4PhYzX
Profile Joined March 2019
Poland4195 Posts
April 12 2021 10:27 GMT
#44
Maybe the korean progamers can just offrace maybe then the games would be closer and more exciting
odi profanum vulgus et arceo
TMNT
Profile Joined January 2021
2723 Posts
April 12 2021 12:47 GMT
#45
Based on the stats in the other topic, Dewalt can take 1 game off Snow/Action every 6 games, so maybe next time then.
I dont mind the skill gap, its still refreshing to watch these kind of events.
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44329 Posts
April 12 2021 13:18 GMT
#46
On April 12 2021 08:41 Cruiser0929 wrote:
Hi guys! A new video has been uploaded to StarCastTV!
Today's video is a showmatch series of Foreign All-Star vs Rush and Sorry!
Cast by Scan!
Thank you for watching

If you enjoyed it, please subscribe and like!
And please write comments for Caster who is trying hard for Starcraft fans!

Your support will greatly help StarCastTV produce better content and increase production value.
https://www.patreon.com/starcasttv

https://youtu.be/X0x7LeRhV04

If you want to contribute to Show Match, you can contribute through Matcherino
https://matcherino.com/tournaments/30335/


Thanks for posting the VOD!
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
oxKnu
Profile Joined December 2017
1180 Posts
April 12 2021 13:30 GMT
#47
It didn't help that Rush and Royal are really strong right now.

There are a lot more weaker players than these two in the semi/pro catalog of players.
MapleLeafSirup
Profile Joined July 2009
Germany950 Posts
April 12 2021 16:07 GMT
#48
The skill gap is as high as expected, it is much higher than in like 2008 and 2009. Still, these games are fun to watch and it is interesting to see how programers exploit the weaknesses of "just very good" players.
Kaolla
Profile Joined January 2003
China2999 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-04-12 18:06:54
April 12 2021 18:00 GMT
#49
On April 13 2021 01:07 MapleLeafSirup wrote:
The skill gap is as high as expected, it is much higher than in like 2008 and 2009. Still, these games are fun to watch and it is interesting to see how programers exploit the weaknesses of "just very good" players.


I don't think it is. You think at WCG those games the progamers lost was due to them just not being able to handle the players they played. The one I think about most is Silent Control vs Fisheye. Probably if they played 100 games, Fisheye would've won like 5. He just played the better series those games and took advantage of the cheesy play foreigners are way more used to.

It's in a same way Dewalt got a decent result vs Scan now. Of course, Scan is not up there with the very top Koreans, but I feel cheese is just more common in the foreigner scene and they thus know how to deal with it better (unless really high level, you could argue at that time if Silent Control was).

Anyway, I don't feel it's that much different than before. In a normal, standard game there's probably no foreigner that will take a game off of a Korean pro. That's gonna be really hard. I feel foreigners were closer in days of the past (think of the Nony and Ret days). Right now I'd say that's pretty unlikely.

But yea, difference has always been big I"d say, tournament games (like back in 2008-2009) don't mean a lot. Those were series that were based mostly on cheese. In the end I feel that was and still is the only way they can win. Nothing wrong with that either, but it's not like foreigners were ever able to play straight up games with top Koreans (afaik, but feel free to prove me wrong).
its me
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42689 Posts
April 12 2021 18:07 GMT
#50
Dewalt is good enough that if he plays a gamble build (like he did on Reverse Temple) and gets a few lucky advantages (cross map, last scouted, Scan opting for a weaker macro opening than Dewalt’s) he can absolutely close it out. Not every game starts 50/50, due to smart builds and some good luck Dewalt was effectively playing with bonus minerals and the skill gap is close enough that top foreigners can win from there.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Kaolla
Profile Joined January 2003
China2999 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-04-12 18:29:18
April 12 2021 18:27 GMT
#51
On April 13 2021 03:07 KwarK wrote:
Dewalt is good enough that if he plays a gamble build (like he did on Reverse Temple) and gets a few lucky advantages (cross map, last scouted, Scan opting for a weaker macro opening than Dewalt’s) he can absolutely close it out. Not every game starts 50/50, due to smart builds and some good luck Dewalt was effectively playing with bonus minerals and the skill gap is close enough that top foreigners can win from there.


I have to see more games for that, I feel he pounced on his advantage pretty soon. If he cannot do that, I'll still have to see how he handles a longer game in which the opponent comes back.

I am also not trying to shittalk on Dewalt. I know it's a damn tough job to take on these Korean juggernauts, but I feel in the games that I did see (the Dewalt vs Scan series) it was a combination of Dewalt doing cheesy (or not very normal) builds, while Scan was also reacting to them rather poorly.

Anyway, Don't wanna put all attention to that, Dewalt is a great player and I am not trying to shit talk him at all (you might get that idea when reading my posts). I just hink the gap is bigger than you might get the idea from if just looked at the results from for instance those games vs Scan (and then to think Dewalt should've actually won that series).

I don't feel the gap now is closer than it has been in the past. I still feel in the times as mentioned before (Nony/Ret) those were the closest to Korean level as anyone has ever been (and it was still a huge gap). I hope any of the guys nowadays can make it though and if any foreigner would qualify for ASL, that would instantly make them the best so far I'd say. But that's not an easy task and I doubt it'll happen.
its me
ruhtraeel
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada119 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-04-12 19:37:34
April 12 2021 18:44 GMT
#52
The skill gap is still so big, it never once felt like a foreigner had an advantage at any point in the first series... when Bonyth and Dewalt get crushed so hard, I'm not expecting foreigners to win any games in this series.

That being said, where was Eonzerg? I'd like to think he would have an ok chance of taking a win, maybe against Snow/another Protoss player
darktreb
Profile Joined May 2007
United States3016 Posts
April 12 2021 19:52 GMT
#53
Rush and Sorry are both top 10 players right now. Arguably higher.

There's a big gap even between top 10 and top 30 (30th doesn't even qualify for ASL ro24).

No need to overreact to a completely expected result.

If Flash stomped these 9 players no one would bat an eye. Rush and Sorry are almost as good as Flash (at least at this very moment in time). That's how good they are right now!

They just haven't had major league results so people who aren't following the Korean scene as closely assume they are "lower tier pros".
ox.tQ
Profile Joined November 2010
794 Posts
April 13 2021 03:57 GMT
#54
Thank you for organizing these wonderful events for the top foreign players and community. And thanks for the analysis above gentlemen.
https://www.twitch.tv/TeamThinkQuickTTV *** https://trovo.live/TeamThinkQuickTTV *** https://play.afreecatv.com/axtqttv
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28667 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-04-13 07:48:08
April 13 2021 07:44 GMT
#55
I think Dewalt is as close to korean progamers as anyone has been in the past 15 years - most certainly if you don't include people living in Korea. The following stats (taken from the reps.ru victory day celebration threat) are as good as any I've seen after like... blackman vs aquarius back in 2002 or whatever (If you go back to 2001 or earlier, you can make decent arguments that the top players were not korean):

pvz vs progamer/top amateur: 305W - 778L
Dewalt 54:208 Shine
Dewalt 32:70 816
Dewalt 5:24 Action

PvT: 265W - 749L
Dewalt 6:16 Bishop
Dewalt 18:88 Hiya
Dewalt 10:40 sSak

PvP 297W - 601L
Dewalt 10:48 Snow
Dewalt 26:48 Mighty
Dewalt 24:64 Ruin

But I mean, going by this, the best two nonkoreans (dewalt and bonyth) have something like a 15-20% shot against the really good progamers like action and snow. The other nonkoreans have less of a shot. PvT seems like the toughest matchup too. So Rush/Sorry 9-0ing isn't a big surprise, but a 7-2 or 8-1 win wouldn't be particularly surprising either.

Edit: I guess back in 2005, when team europe beat team asia 3-2, korean progamers going 1-2, Mondragon beating Zeus 3-0, is the previous time non-koreans were competitive. (Of course, maps might have been a slight factor there. )
Moderator
M3t4PhYzX
Profile Joined March 2019
Poland4195 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-04-13 08:05:27
April 13 2021 08:00 GMT
#56
On April 13 2021 16:44 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I think Dewalt is as close to korean progamers as anyone has been in the past 15 years - most certainly if you don't include people living in Korea. The following stats (taken from the reps.ru victory day celebration threat) are as good as any I've seen after like... blackman vs aquarius back in 2002 or whatever (If you go back to 2001 or earlier, you can make decent arguments that the top players were not korean):

pvz vs progamer/top amateur: 305W - 778L
Dewalt 54:208 Shine
Dewalt 32:70 816
Dewalt 5:24 Action

PvT: 265W - 749L
Dewalt 6:16 Bishop
Dewalt 18:88 Hiya
Dewalt 10:40 sSak

PvP 297W - 601L
Dewalt 10:48 Snow
Dewalt 26:48 Mighty
Dewalt 24:64 Ruin

But I mean, going by this, the best two nonkoreans (dewalt and bonyth) have something like a 15-20% shot against the really good progamers like action and snow. The other nonkoreans have less of a shot. PvT seems like the toughest matchup too. So Rush/Sorry 9-0ing isn't a big surprise, but a 7-2 or 8-1 win wouldn't be particularly surprising either.

Edit: I guess back in 2005, when team europe beat team asia 3-2, korean progamers going 1-2, Mondragon beating Zeus 3-0, is the previous time non-koreans were competitive. (Of course, maps might have been a slight factor there. )

"Edit: I guess back in 2005, when team europe beat team asia 3-2, korean progamers going 1-2, Mondragon beating Zeus 3-0, is the previous time non-koreans were competitive. (Of course, maps might have been a slight factor there. "

Where can I find some more details about this event? ^

it's 815 btw
odi profanum vulgus et arceo
iRk-AGge
Profile Joined October 2017
Sweden400 Posts
April 13 2021 09:02 GMT
#57
Dante08
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
Singapore4128 Posts
April 13 2021 09:41 GMT
#58
Just watched the series and you can see the superior game understanding by Sorry/Rush, especially in the TvT games. Like how Sorry used 2 wraiths vs Gypsy on Benzene to transition into a macro game and how he used pure Marines after scouting no vulture to stall long enough to delay Terrors tank push. Absolutely brilliant!

Unfortunately foreigners still have a long way to go in terms of both mechanics and game understanding.
Dante08
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
Singapore4128 Posts
April 13 2021 09:43 GMT
#59
On April 13 2021 16:44 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I think Dewalt is as close to korean progamers as anyone has been in the past 15 years - most certainly if you don't include people living in Korea. The following stats (taken from the reps.ru victory day celebration threat) are as good as any I've seen after like... blackman vs aquarius back in 2002 or whatever (If you go back to 2001 or earlier, you can make decent arguments that the top players were not korean):

pvz vs progamer/top amateur: 305W - 778L
Dewalt 54:208 Shine
Dewalt 32:70 816
Dewalt 5:24 Action

PvT: 265W - 749L
Dewalt 6:16 Bishop
Dewalt 18:88 Hiya
Dewalt 10:40 sSak

PvP 297W - 601L
Dewalt 10:48 Snow
Dewalt 26:48 Mighty
Dewalt 24:64 Ruin

But I mean, going by this, the best two nonkoreans (dewalt and bonyth) have something like a 15-20% shot against the really good progamers like action and snow. The other nonkoreans have less of a shot. PvT seems like the toughest matchup too. So Rush/Sorry 9-0ing isn't a big surprise, but a 7-2 or 8-1 win wouldn't be particularly surprising either.

Edit: I guess back in 2005, when team europe beat team asia 3-2, korean progamers going 1-2, Mondragon beating Zeus 3-0, is the previous time non-koreans were competitive. (Of course, maps might have been a slight factor there. )


That's actually pretty impressive based on just ladder stats. If both of them can get some decent coaching from like Bisu/Stork and consistent practice games vs other progamers I could see them taking games more consistently off them.
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28667 Posts
April 13 2021 10:03 GMT
#60
On April 13 2021 17:00 M3t4PhYzX wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 13 2021 16:44 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I think Dewalt is as close to korean progamers as anyone has been in the past 15 years - most certainly if you don't include people living in Korea. The following stats (taken from the reps.ru victory day celebration threat) are as good as any I've seen after like... blackman vs aquarius back in 2002 or whatever (If you go back to 2001 or earlier, you can make decent arguments that the top players were not korean):

pvz vs progamer/top amateur: 305W - 778L
Dewalt 54:208 Shine
Dewalt 32:70 816
Dewalt 5:24 Action

PvT: 265W - 749L
Dewalt 6:16 Bishop
Dewalt 18:88 Hiya
Dewalt 10:40 sSak

PvP 297W - 601L
Dewalt 10:48 Snow
Dewalt 26:48 Mighty
Dewalt 24:64 Ruin

But I mean, going by this, the best two nonkoreans (dewalt and bonyth) have something like a 15-20% shot against the really good progamers like action and snow. The other nonkoreans have less of a shot. PvT seems like the toughest matchup too. So Rush/Sorry 9-0ing isn't a big surprise, but a 7-2 or 8-1 win wouldn't be particularly surprising either.

Edit: I guess back in 2005, when team europe beat team asia 3-2, korean progamers going 1-2, Mondragon beating Zeus 3-0, is the previous time non-koreans were competitive. (Of course, maps might have been a slight factor there. )

"Edit: I guess back in 2005, when team europe beat team asia 3-2, korean progamers going 1-2, Mondragon beating Zeus 3-0, is the previous time non-koreans were competitive. (Of course, maps might have been a slight factor there. "

Where can I find some more details about this event? ^

it's 815 btw


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