Reason why JD said this may not apply to NaDa was because NaDa was famous for playing other games and drinking right before tournament finals and just playing teamgames for fun on Battlenet instead of practicing. Julyzerg was asked for practice before finals and July went in expecting 60-70 games practice session but NaDa told him "thank you" after 4 games and logged off.
After 2006 golden mouse, NaDa said on interview "I gave it my all to achieve this, thank you" but FlaSh revealed later on stream that "NaDa just played Sudden Attack all day and used a build he saw once on finals and still won"
Great interview, the quote that "practice will never betray you and will always come back for you in the future" is very endearing. I think BW is one of my most appreciated games of all time simply because of the amount of dedication that players from all walks of life put in as outlined by Jaedong here. In the end, we do it for the love and passion for the game. Loved the little excerpt about NaDa.
I saw Nada who tested how to micro Valkyrie about 1 minute in the hunter map before he played games to qualify for ASL. But he lost his game in the bluestorm map.
Grinding Starcraft is way harder than studying of course and it is a bless to have been dealing with that kind of challenge during teenagehood as there is nothing that is "too difficult" now, just finished a master's degree and starting a PhD and I sometimes am baffled how far I can go with study not investing 20% of what I did in Starcraft. Keeping in mind that it is nowhere near close of those progamers and their insane daily practice. The dedication and strenght those guys built is a lifetime asset, "if I want good result, I know how to do it". That is a game changer and not many people can say that. Jaedong killing machine!
Offtopic: who fucked up JD's liqupiedia page? Where are his post KeSPA achievements, like 2nd place of KSL, 4th place ASL etc.? It looked normal but someone thought he's genius. That's not cool. C'mon guys, if you can't conribute pls don't touch the history (+ some photos are getting removed for no reason, so many players like Light or Snow doesn't even have profile image anymore, like WTF is this...). Jaedong
On March 30 2021 20:41 outscar wrote: Offtopic: who fucked up JD's liqupiedia page? Where are his post KeSPA achievements, like 2nd place of KSL, 4th place ASL etc.? It looked normal but someone thought he's genius. That's not cool. C'mon guys, if you can't conribute pls don't touch the history (+ some photos are getting removed for no reason, so many players like Light or Snow doesn't even have profile image anymore, like WTF is this...). https://liquipedia.net/starcraft/Jaedong
I completely agree, I even think a thread should be created. History should not be erased
On March 30 2021 13:08 GTR wrote: lol the mbc thailand trip
Since they don't speak English, does Koreans learn other languages that they can use to communicate in other countries? How would they communicate in Thailand?
Damn, young Bisu has quite a resemblance to friggin Bruce Lee here. (I admit I'm a little "blind" for asian facial differences though. Mb it's mostly that haircut)
On March 30 2021 07:44 LegendaryDreams wrote: Great interview, the quote that "practice will never betray you and will always come back for you in the future" is very endearing. I think BW is one of my most appreciated games of all time simply because of the amount of dedication that players from all walks of life put in as outlined by Jaedong here. In the end, we do it for the love and passion for the game. Loved the little excerpt about NaDa.
Thank you jinjin5000 for the translations.
Came here to talk about that quote too. So good.
"To practice isn't for you to get better now in the present. Practice will never betray you and will always come back for you in the future." -- Jaedong
On March 30 2021 20:41 outscar wrote: Offtopic: who fucked up JD's liqupiedia page? Where are his post KeSPA achievements, like 2nd place of KSL, 4th place ASL etc.? It looked normal but someone thought he's genius. That's not cool. C'mon guys, if you can't conribute pls don't touch the history (+ some photos are getting removed for no reason, so many players like Light or Snow doesn't even have profile image anymore, like WTF is this...). https://liquipedia.net/starcraft/Jaedong
I completely agree, I even think a thread should be created. History should not be erased
I'm not sure what you're both talking about to be honest. I looked through the edit history, which I /believe/ you should be able to as well, and you will clearly see:
1. The most recent major removals in the Accomplishments happened in 2017 and were made by Spazer, who is very reputable.
2. The images that were removed were removed because of copyright infringement.
Furthermore:
3. If you have so much to contribute, why don't you contribute?...
There’s something to be said for dedication for sure but that seems overkill in terms of a practice regime and you’re hitting diminishing returns or even burnout and regression in that environment.
4 hrs of proper practice is much more valuable than 12 hrs of practice for the sake of practice. Also, playing game after game isn't really practice. You practice to perfect specific things, and starcraft branches rapidly after your drone split such that game playing can't really exercise anything specific. There are tools for those things, and that's significantly more worthwhile than playing game after game. I'm sure that's what he meant by hard, though he didn't specify. It's a lot harder to do nothing but worker drills for 4 hours than playing games for 4 hours. It's also way more effective at getting a drone drill right when it matters.
yea man, jaedong not gonna lie as much as i dont wanna admitt, back in the day he was a cut above his zerg, no one liked to play against zerg, and his was just too good too tricky, build was too good, i came up in the era of SlayerS_`BoxeR` was good, jaedong reigned for a long time though, but who was better? i dunno hard to tell i think boxer had some strengths but maybe jaedong was more evolved, but has boxer ever beat jaedong ?? i know hes beat flash before, and now flash has beaten jaedong but hey, they were good times man the Lans, i was pretty good, but i never practiced in a team house, where all the players were good, i just practiced to myself online, Lan'd sometimes, but hey man, such good times, dont do drugs,
On April 01 2021 04:29 WombaT wrote: There’s something to be said for dedication for sure but that seems overkill in terms of a practice regime and you’re hitting diminishing returns or even burnout and regression in that environment.
whether or not you burnout or regress is the difference between having what it takes to be a top player or being a mediocre player. those who can maintain that level of practice without burning out will benefit from all that practice, regardless of how diminishing those returns are. that small difference is what makes a player s-tier and a-tier. so i disagree that the practice hours are overkill and i definitely disagree with nematocyst that 4 hours of practice is better than 12. thats just flat out wrong. gaming isnt the same as trying to absorb new knowledge from a textbook. muscle memory, reaction time and instinctive decision making are hugely important and all of these are improved by immense amounts of repetition. more hours = more repetition = "automatic" actions/decision making. theres a form of practice that doesnt involve grinding obviously, which would be theory crafting and improving their understanding of the game, but getting their mechanics to a level which can execute actions according to their understanding of the game in a matter of milliseconds is only done through repetition. a player that only plays ~15 games a day cannot become better than a similar player grinding ~30
On March 30 2021 13:08 GTR wrote: lol the mbc thailand trip
Since they don't speak English, does Koreans learn other languages that they can use to communicate in other countries? How would they communicate in Thailand?
There's quite a few koreans who can speak English. I know there's a lot of Koreans who can speak Japanese as well.
It's the same as any country really, there's people in Korea who know varius languages, same as anywhere else.
On April 01 2021 04:29 WombaT wrote: There’s something to be said for dedication for sure but that seems overkill in terms of a practice regime and you’re hitting diminishing returns or even burnout and regression in that environment.
whether or not you burnout or regress is the difference between having what it takes to be a top player or being a mediocre player. those who can maintain that level of practice without burning out will benefit from all that practice, regardless of how diminishing those returns are. that small difference is what makes a player s-tier and a-tier. so i disagree that the practice hours are overkill and i definitely disagree with nematocyst that 4 hours of practice is better than 12. thats just flat out wrong. gaming isnt the same as trying to absorb new knowledge from a textbook. muscle memory, reaction time and instinctive decision making are hugely important and all of these are improved by immense amounts of repetition. more hours = more repetition = "automatic" actions/decision making. theres a form of practice that doesnt involve grinding obviously, which would be theory crafting and improving their understanding of the game, but getting their mechanics to a level which can execute actions according to their understanding of the game in a matter of milliseconds is only done through repetition. a player that only plays ~15 games a day cannot become better than a similar player grinding ~30
I agree that 4 hours is no way near as beneficial as 12, and if you look at games from the Kespa era and compare them to today’s games, you clearly see the level of mechanics was way better back then.
But when people like Flash and Jaedong ends up fucking up their wrists to the point of needing several surgeries and in the end are no longer capable to play the game, it’s clearly gone to far.
I remember Artosis saying in a video some time ago he interviewed the coaches and asked who they thought the next upcoming pro gamer was, and all they did was list the players who practiced the most. Nothing else mattered to them. And to get the coaches graces and get to play in tournaments, you had to practice more than everyone else. That’s going to far and not healthy IMO. And some of these players were very young.
On March 30 2021 13:08 GTR wrote: lol the mbc thailand trip
Since they don't speak English, does Koreans learn other languages that they can use to communicate in other countries? How would they communicate in Thailand?
There's quite a few koreans who can speak English. I know there's a lot of Koreans who can speak Japanese as well.
It's the same as any country really, there's people in Korea who know varius languages, same as anywhere else.
yea coaches prioritizing absolute hours of practice over actual meaningful practice alludes to some rather short term mindset. the average player doesnt have much achievements so how "hard" he works basically determines his pay/increment. pressure on coaches to perform they can put those number of hours in front of bigwigs to show they did something regardless of actual achievements. Kinda degenerates into a race to the bottom (or top depending) where everyone tries to put in more hours than each other to make themselves look better. All theses disregards players lack of prospects past gaming, long-term health and ethics (matchfixing).
you guys seem to be forgetting the fact that progamers are no different to any other elite athlete. they have short careers and many elite athletes carry injuries that often last a lifetime. ask any one of those (successful) athletes that devoted their lives to their profession whether they regret their choice and id wager that they all say no. even the ones who werent as successful wouldnt regret because of any injury, theyd simply regret that they didnt perform better. progamers start young so you guys look at this with a protective lens, but every professional athlete starts young. its their passion and their choice to make the most of the short window they have to make something of themselves. if 14 hours of practice a day gives them a better platform to do that then why question their resolve?
its not about questioning their career choice or resolve, its about casting doubts on the actual efficacy of their "training". or from the sound of it, "more (mindless) hours mean better" sweatshop grinding. Look at players like BeSt extermely talented player but constant choking in offline tourneys. If even a small fraction of his training hours is instead used for counselling/workshops to help alleviate his psychological struggles and foster a better mindset it would do wonders for his actual play more than any extra hours would.
On March 30 2021 20:41 outscar wrote: Offtopic: who fucked up JD's liqupiedia page? Where are his post KeSPA achievements, like 2nd place of KSL, 4th place ASL etc.? It looked normal but someone thought he's genius. That's not cool. C'mon guys, if you can't conribute pls don't touch the history (+ some photos are getting removed for no reason, so many players like Light or Snow doesn't even have profile image anymore, like WTF is this...). https://liquipedia.net/starcraft/Jaedong
I completely agree, I even think a thread should be created. History should not be erased
I'm not sure what you're both talking about to be honest. I looked through the edit history, which I /believe/ you should be able to as well, and you will clearly see:
1. The most recent major removals in the Accomplishments happened in 2017 and were made by Spazer, who is very reputable.
2. The images that were removed were removed because of copyright infringement.
Furthermore:
3. If you have so much to contribute, why don't you contribute?...
They changed something about how achievement tables looking, I tried to add accomplishments to players long ago but it works different right now, maybe I'm too dumb for it. I can swear in 2018 JD had more achievements, now something is weird and when I try to look upon after 2017 changes table isn't showing at all. And what copyright infringement? Did someone threatened to remove or they removed to not have problems in future? I mean, around 10 years no one cared about them and now suddenly copyright problems?
They are different in that professional athletes have to carefully calculate how much training they have to do in order to prevent injuries and overtraining, and it doesn’t compare to esports in the same way. I would rather compare them to musicians like guitar players. A lot of the famous guitar players played 12 hours a day and a lot of them got injuries. Did they regret it? I doubt it. Would they do it the exact same way again? Probably, if it meant being successful.
Is it the right way to do it? No it isn’t when you’re taking about grown up coaches training kids.
On April 01 2021 19:09 Timebon3s wrote: They are different in that professional athletes have to carefully calculate how much training they have to do in order to prevent injuries and overtraining, and it doesn’t compare to esports in the same way. I would rather compare them to musicians like guitar players. A lot of the famous guitar players played 12 hours a day and a lot of them got injuries. Did they regret it? I doubt it. Would they do it the exact same way again? Probably, if it meant being successful.
Is it the right way to do it? No it isn’t when you’re taking about grown up coaches training kids.
please enlighten us on what the right way to do it is. if you had any results to back your claim then you could say they were wrong but you dont. korea has historically produced the best esports players in history and it isnt because they allowed their players more freedom in their practice routine. these players are in constant competition with each other and grinding is what made the difference in their field. if they get hurt while doing it thats the cost of their success and no matter how young they are they still understand the choice they make to follow those routines. with the millions of dollars put into the esports industry and infrastructure in korea over a span of ~20 years, youd think the coaches there understood what the best method would be to get players to produce results and improve. guess they needed to spend more millions in a wider scouting network because they failed to find the genius revolutionary coaches on tl who know the real secrets behind coaching /s
On April 01 2021 19:09 Timebon3s wrote: They are different in that professional athletes have to carefully calculate how much training they have to do in order to prevent injuries and overtraining, and it doesn’t compare to esports in the same way. I would rather compare them to musicians like guitar players. A lot of the famous guitar players played 12 hours a day and a lot of them got injuries. Did they regret it? I doubt it. Would they do it the exact same way again? Probably, if it meant being successful.
Is it the right way to do it? No it isn’t when you’re taking about grown up coaches training kids.
please enlighten us on what the right way to do it is. if you had any results to back your claim then you could say they were wrong but you dont. korea has historically produced the best esports players in history and it isnt because they allowed their players more freedom in their practice routine. these players are in constant competition with each other and grinding is what made the difference in their field. if they get hurt while doing it thats the cost of their success and no matter how young they are they still understand the choice they make to follow those routines. with the millions of dollars put into the esports industry and infrastructure in korea over a span of ~20 years, youd think the coaches there understood what the best method would be to get players to produce results and improve. guess they needed to spend more millions in a wider scouting network because they failed to find the genius revolutionary coaches on tl who know the real secrets behind coaching /s
On April 01 2021 19:09 Timebon3s wrote: They are different in that professional athletes have to carefully calculate how much training they have to do in order to prevent injuries and overtraining, and it doesn’t compare to esports in the same way. I would rather compare them to musicians like guitar players. A lot of the famous guitar players played 12 hours a day and a lot of them got injuries. Did they regret it? I doubt it. Would they do it the exact same way again? Probably, if it meant being successful.
Is it the right way to do it? No it isn’t when you’re taking about grown up coaches training kids.
please enlighten us on what the right way to do it is. if you had any results to back your claim then you could say they were wrong but you dont. korea has historically produced the best esports players in history and it isnt because they allowed their players more freedom in their practice routine. these players are in constant competition with each other and grinding is what made the difference in their field. if they get hurt while doing it thats the cost of their success and no matter how young they are they still understand the choice they make to follow those routines. with the millions of dollars put into the esports industry and infrastructure in korea over a span of ~20 years, youd think the coaches there understood what the best method would be to get players to produce results and improve. guess they needed to spend more millions in a wider scouting network because they failed to find the genius revolutionary coaches on tl who know the real secrets behind coaching /s
It's actually quite insulting.
i agree. like do they honestly think that flash would be raging about how his coaches exploited him when he was younger and forced him into 14 hours of practice a day to make him the god he is? i would bet my life savings on flash looking at his injuries and thinking "arms well spent".
i agree. like do they honestly think that flash would be raging about how his coaches exploited him when he was younger and forced him into 14 hours of practice a day to make him the god he is? i would bet my life savings on flash looking at his injuries and thinking "arms well spent".
flash would have succeeded no matter the regimen, hes a generational talent on the par of messi/lebron.
i argue a lslightly less strenous but more focused regimen with investment into a physiotherapist to ensure players long term health would never let him have issues with his wrists at all while maintaining his rigour of play. if flash is truly the best player then a asset like him deserves protection no?
On April 01 2021 19:09 Timebon3s wrote: They are different in that professional athletes have to carefully calculate how much training they have to do in order to prevent injuries and overtraining, and it doesn’t compare to esports in the same way. I would rather compare them to musicians like guitar players. A lot of the famous guitar players played 12 hours a day and a lot of them got injuries. Did they regret it? I doubt it. Would they do it the exact same way again? Probably, if it meant being successful.
Is it the right way to do it? No it isn’t when you’re taking about grown up coaches training kids.
please enlighten us on what the right way to do it is. if you had any results to back your claim then you could say they were wrong but you dont. korea has historically produced the best esports players in history and it isnt because they allowed their players more freedom in their practice routine. these players are in constant competition with each other and grinding is what made the difference in their field. if they get hurt while doing it thats the cost of their success and no matter how young they are they still understand the choice they make to follow those routines. with the millions of dollars put into the esports industry and infrastructure in korea over a span of ~20 years, youd think the coaches there understood what the best method would be to get players to produce results and improve. guess they needed to spend more millions in a wider scouting network because they failed to find the genius revolutionary coaches on tl who know the real secrets behind coaching /s
It's actually quite insulting.
i agree. like do they honestly think that flash would be raging about how his coaches exploited him when he was younger and forced him into 14 hours of practice a day to make him the god he is? i would bet my life savings on flash looking at his injuries and thinking "arms well spent".
Flash is Flash though.
As Jaedong alludes to even amongst the Kespa teams Oz had a notably intense training regime and simply practicing harder didn’t notably elevate them beyond their competition.
It’s not a matter of not working hard, time could be better utilised. Even through Kespa’s BW life I believe they toned down and restructured practice regimes, and modern ones are a good bit more balanced (albeit yes modern Korean teams play less mechanically demanding games).
In addition you pile a crazy amount of pressure on people if your absolute entire life is Starcraft. If you can’t even wind down, watch some TV or casually browse the internet I mean come game week that takes on a huge, huge significance.
Again, it does visibly work but is it optimal and worth the trade off educationally and socially for those who don’t ascend to the levels of a Flash or a Jaedong?
On April 01 2021 19:09 Timebon3s wrote: They are different in that professional athletes have to carefully calculate how much training they have to do in order to prevent injuries and overtraining, and it doesn’t compare to esports in the same way. I would rather compare them to musicians like guitar players. A lot of the famous guitar players played 12 hours a day and a lot of them got injuries. Did they regret it? I doubt it. Would they do it the exact same way again? Probably, if it meant being successful.
Is it the right way to do it? No it isn’t when you’re taking about grown up coaches training kids.
please enlighten us on what the right way to do it is. if you had any results to back your claim then you could say they were wrong but you dont. korea has historically produced the best esports players in history and it isnt because they allowed their players more freedom in their practice routine. these players are in constant competition with each other and grinding is what made the difference in their field. if they get hurt while doing it thats the cost of their success and no matter how young they are they still understand the choice they make to follow those routines. with the millions of dollars put into the esports industry and infrastructure in korea over a span of ~20 years, youd think the coaches there understood what the best method would be to get players to produce results and improve. guess they needed to spend more millions in a wider scouting network because they failed to find the genius revolutionary coaches on tl who know the real secrets behind coaching /s
To begin with, they should get proper amount of sleep and learn how to practice without having their wrists fucked up for the rest of their lifes. It can be as insulting as you want, but having kids down to 12 years old practice that amount without letting their brains get the rest they need is borderline abuse.
OR we could shoot them up with amphetamine so they could practice for 20 hours a day. As long as they get best right? :D
On April 01 2021 19:09 Timebon3s wrote: They are different in that professional athletes have to carefully calculate how much training they have to do in order to prevent injuries and overtraining, and it doesn’t compare to esports in the same way. I would rather compare them to musicians like guitar players. A lot of the famous guitar players played 12 hours a day and a lot of them got injuries. Did they regret it? I doubt it. Would they do it the exact same way again? Probably, if it meant being successful.
Is it the right way to do it? No it isn’t when you’re taking about grown up coaches training kids.
please enlighten us on what the right way to do it is. if you had any results to back your claim then you could say they were wrong but you dont. korea has historically produced the best esports players in history and it isnt because they allowed their players more freedom in their practice routine. these players are in constant competition with each other and grinding is what made the difference in their field. if they get hurt while doing it thats the cost of their success and no matter how young they are they still understand the choice they make to follow those routines. with the millions of dollars put into the esports industry and infrastructure in korea over a span of ~20 years, youd think the coaches there understood what the best method would be to get players to produce results and improve. guess they needed to spend more millions in a wider scouting network because they failed to find the genius revolutionary coaches on tl who know the real secrets behind coaching /s
It's actually quite insulting.
i agree. like do they honestly think that flash would be raging about how his coaches exploited him when he was younger and forced him into 14 hours of practice a day to make him the god he is? i would bet my life savings on flash looking at his injuries and thinking "arms well spent".
Flash is Flash though.
As Jaedong alludes to even amongst the Kespa teams Oz had a notably intense training regime and simply practicing harder didn’t notably elevate them beyond their competition.
It’s not a matter of not working hard, time could be better utilised. Even through Kespa’s BW life I believe they toned down and restructured practice regimes, and modern ones are a good bit more balanced (albeit yes modern Korean teams play less mechanically demanding games).
In addition you pile a crazy amount of pressure on people if your absolute entire life is Starcraft. If you can’t even wind down, watch some TV or casually browse the internet I mean come game week that takes on a huge, huge significance.
Again, it does visibly work but is it optimal and worth the trade off educationally and socially for those who don’t ascend to the levels of a Flash or a Jaedong?
thats for the actual players to decide, not some randoms on tl who think they could have revolutionised the practice culture. as for flash being flash, jd literally says in his video that the guys who relied on talent only had "moments" in their careers. the consistent ones put in the hours. what makes you think flash would be any different? if he only puts in 3/4 of the hours compared to the rest of his peers what guarantees him his place on the top? nothing.
On April 01 2021 19:09 Timebon3s wrote: They are different in that professional athletes have to carefully calculate how much training they have to do in order to prevent injuries and overtraining, and it doesn’t compare to esports in the same way. I would rather compare them to musicians like guitar players. A lot of the famous guitar players played 12 hours a day and a lot of them got injuries. Did they regret it? I doubt it. Would they do it the exact same way again? Probably, if it meant being successful.
Is it the right way to do it? No it isn’t when you’re taking about grown up coaches training kids.
please enlighten us on what the right way to do it is. if you had any results to back your claim then you could say they were wrong but you dont. korea has historically produced the best esports players in history and it isnt because they allowed their players more freedom in their practice routine. these players are in constant competition with each other and grinding is what made the difference in their field. if they get hurt while doing it thats the cost of their success and no matter how young they are they still understand the choice they make to follow those routines. with the millions of dollars put into the esports industry and infrastructure in korea over a span of ~20 years, youd think the coaches there understood what the best method would be to get players to produce results and improve. guess they needed to spend more millions in a wider scouting network because they failed to find the genius revolutionary coaches on tl who know the real secrets behind coaching /s
To begin with, they should get proper amount of sleep and learn how to practice without having their wrists fucked up for the rest of their lifes. It can be as insulting as you want, but having kids down to 12 years old practice that amount without letting their brains get the rest they need is borderline abuse.
OR we could shoot them up with amphetamine so they could practice for 20 hours a day. As long as they get best right? :D
you make it sound like some slave master forced these kids into slavery. from your previous posts i already know youre completely oblivious to not just korean (i would go as far as saying asian) culture, but competitive environments in general. heres some knowledge for you. there are literally thousands of children in korea who put in comparable hours to pros at pc bangs or at home, all with the hopes of being a progamer one day. they do this voluntarily because its both their passion and because thats what it takes to be better than their friends. the pros are just given a structured environment where they can dedicate themselves better with like minded people. all of them are making the choice to grind for as long as they physically and mentally can so that they can push themselves to be better than their peers, and the teamhouses provide the ideal environment for the players to do this. now if you look at the results of these pros, it speaks for themselves. foreigners were finally given an opportunity to level the playing field when sc2 first arrived. new game; everyone has to start from scratch. im sure many foreigners adopted your mindset, either because they physically or mentally couldnt cope with the grind or they just didnt consider it to be worth it. when proleague officially moved to sc2, how long did it take before korea dominated and how long did they dominate for? pretty sure it was until the systems supporting this culture ceased to exist. if you want to recommend to any athlete in any category that they take it easy and think of their wellbeing in the future, good luck to them. meanwhile the guys who are desperate to be at the very top and are prepared to make many sacrifices, including their own wellbeing, will stomp the lazy athletes all day every day. if your peers are grinding like fuck to be better than you, i dont know how you expect to achieve results if you dont put in the effort to at least match them.
instead of just admitting that youre clueless about what it takes to be a top sportsman, or that you lack the competitive mindset yourself to be able to relate to them in the slightest, you have the audacity to say from the comfort of your home that they could have achieved those results without making those sacrifices and they should have practiced "better", or worse, you question whether their success was even worth it. thats just disrespectful and frankly makes you look pathetic.
Arguing about the best practice regimen with calls for hard data or any kind of evidence is kinda pointless, since we don't really have a control group with the same baseline characteristics. A bunch of factors have made the Korean StarCraft scene the best in the world and the rigorous practice routine is just one of them.
The optimal practice regimen is basically unknown to us - heck, even their practice regimen back in the day is unknown to us. Do we know anything about warning-up routine to prevent strain on the structures of the upper limb? Professional musicians even warm DOWN on occasion (John Myung, the bass player for Dream Theater, off the top of my head). Was ergonomics taken into account? If it did, at what point of the development of the pro scene? To what degree? Probably different coaches had different coaching styles, do we know details about them? Maybe some old-timer die-hard fans on this website can shed some light on these issues, that would help the discussion. Don't forget, esports coaching was basically developed then, people were learning on the job and that's completely understandable. We might discuss things now with the benefit of hindsight that they didn't, and that's completely understandable too. And I'm just skimming the surface here.
My point is, "practice" might mean a lot of things and it does absolutely no wrong to discuss (theorize, in fact) ways to optimize practice regimens. I suppose those guys knew that what they're doing will have a price, everything has a price, although they were pretty young at that time. This is beyond the scope of the discussion. I think it's fine to think about ways to reduce the risk of injury; even if the ways proposed are wrong or lead to an unacceptable reduction in performance, such a discussion still has merit.
if all that was said about their practice regime was that it was unfortunate potential injuries werent managed better, then thatd be fine. to say that to put in that many hours was wrong and they should have found alternatives, is to completely misunderstand the context of why they put that many hours in to begin with. the reason why i specifically use the athlete comparison rather than musicians is because musicians arent typically in competition with one another. musicians typically "compete" against themselves. progamers and other athletes compete with other people, meaning its a race against the clock to become better than others and maintain that performance for as long as possible before your inevitable decline. debating whether or not better coaching methods would have allowed for better injury management whilst maintaining their hours is good. saying that pros should have reduced their practice hours to take care of their bodies is the equivalent of saying the pros should have settled for mediocrity. theres a term the pros use to describe those who were particularly dedicated to practice, called "practice bug". on stream whenever any pro is asked about bisu, jd or flash, those who shared teamhouses with them unanimously say that those 3 were practice bugs. even in a teamhouse where its standard to practice for hours on end, they are recognised amongst their peers for putting in even more hours. the first thing these pros recognise is the effort, not the innate talent and they are quick to credit their accomplishments to the hours they put in. another athlete off the top of my head who was renowned for his insane training regime was kobe bryant. the dude slept like 4 hours a day or something and most of his time was being in the gym or practicing on a court. you dont get to the top of any competitive category by training less than others
On April 02 2021 00:48 TaardadAiel wrote: Arguing about the best practice regimen with calls for hard data or any kind of evidence is kinda pointless, since we don't really have a control group with the same baseline characteristics. A bunch of factors have made the Korean StarCraft scene the best in the world and the rigorous practice routine is just one of them.
The optimal practice regimen is basically unknown to us - heck, even their practice regimen back in the day is unknown to us. Do we know anything about warning-up routine to prevent strain on the structures of the upper limb? Professional musicians even warm DOWN on occasion (John Myung, the bass player for Dream Theater, off the top of my head). Was ergonomics taken into account? If it did, at what point of the development of the pro scene? To what degree? Probably different coaches had different coaching styles, do we know details about them? Maybe some old-timer die-hard fans on this website can shed some light on these issues, that would help the discussion. Don't forget, esports coaching was basically developed then, people were learning on the job and that's completely understandable. We might discuss things now with the benefit of hindsight that they didn't, and that's completely understandable too. And I'm just skimming the surface here.
My point is, "practice" might mean a lot of things and it does absolutely no wrong to discuss (theorize, in fact) ways to optimize practice regimens. I suppose those guys knew that what they're doing will have a price, everything has a price, although they were pretty young at that time. This is beyond the scope of the discussion. I think it's fine to think about ways to reduce the risk of injury; even if the ways proposed are wrong or lead to an unacceptable reduction in performance, such a discussion still has merit.
For those interested, Nony and Idra talks about their experiences in korean team houses in this vod.
It doesn't sound like it was very sofisticated other than playplayplay and git gudd
On March 30 2021 20:41 outscar wrote: Offtopic: who fucked up JD's liqupiedia page? Where are his post KeSPA achievements, like 2nd place of KSL, 4th place ASL etc.? It looked normal but someone thought he's genius. That's not cool. C'mon guys, if you can't conribute pls don't touch the history (+ some photos are getting removed for no reason, so many players like Light or Snow doesn't even have profile image anymore, like WTF is this...). https://liquipedia.net/starcraft/Jaedong
I completely agree, I even think a thread should be created. History should not be erased
I'm not sure what you're both talking about to be honest. I looked through the edit history, which I /believe/ you should be able to as well, and you will clearly see:
1. The most recent major removals in the Accomplishments happened in 2017 and were made by Spazer, who is very reputable.
2. The images that were removed were removed because of copyright infringement.
Furthermore:
3. If you have so much to contribute, why don't you contribute?...
They changed something about how achievement tables looking, I tried to add accomplishments to players long ago but it works different right now, maybe I'm too dumb for it. I can swear in 2018 JD had more achievements, now something is weird and when I try to look upon after 2017 changes table isn't showing at all. And what copyright infringement? Did someone threatened to remove or they removed to not have problems in future? I mean, around 10 years no one cared about them and now suddenly copyright problems?
Achievements table on the main player page automatically shows the 10 most 'notable' results based on prizepool, tournament tier, placement and whether it was online or offline. The full results can be seen on the results page of the player (Jaedong/Results).
A lot of images had to be removed because of missing/unknown license. While there were no specific requests to take down poctures on the brood war wiki, liquipedia as a whole is growing and has to abide copyright law if it doesn't want to get into legal trouble, so images without permission to use them are getting reomved from the whole site
On April 02 2021 01:10 evilfatsh1t wrote: if all that was said about their practice regime was that it was unfortunate potential injuries werent managed better, then thatd be fine. to say that to put in that many hours was wrong and they should have found alternatives, is to completely misunderstand the context of why they put that many hours in to begin with. the reason why i specifically use the athlete comparison rather than musicians is because musicians arent typically in competition with one another. musicians typically "compete" against themselves. progamers and other athletes compete with other people, meaning its a race against the clock to become better than others and maintain that performance for as long as possible before your inevitable decline. debating whether or not better coaching methods would have allowed for better injury management whilst maintaining their hours is good. saying that pros should have reduced their practice hours to take care of their bodies is the equivalent of saying the pros should have settled for mediocrity. theres a term the pros use to describe those who were particularly dedicated to practice, called "practice bug". on stream whenever any pro is asked about bisu, jd or flash, those who shared teamhouses with them unanimously say that those 3 were practice bugs. even in a teamhouse where its standard to practice for hours on end, they are recognised amongst their peers for putting in even more hours. the first thing these pros recognise is the effort, not the innate talent and they are quick to credit their accomplishments to the hours they put in. another athlete off the top of my head who was renowned for his insane training regime was kobe bryant. the dude slept like 4 hours a day or something and most of his time was being in the gym or practicing on a court. you dont get to the top of any competitive category by training less than others
The reason I'm bringing up musicians is that the mechanism of injury is physiologically similar to that of professional esports players rather than those of say football players, tennis players and so on. I understand and I largely agree with the competitive aspect, I'm talking more about potential ways to optimize rather than the philosophy behind being an athlete.
And musicians have had decades and sometimes centuries of experience in practice gone bad. Professional athletes in conventional sports have had centuries of that. Professional esports players have not. The industry has recognized the potential and has all kinds of products - chairs, mouses, keyboards and the like - to optimize posture and reduce the risk of occupational injury for people that sit behind a computer for hours on end. There's nothing wrong in suggesting esports coaches could do that with what we know now.
Your points are mostly valid, you getting so worked up on this is overboard IMO. This doesn't look like lack of respect for the players and coaches and the immense effort they put in, it's recognition of the shortcomings of their (probable) routine. But then again, maybe I'm just too inclined to take stuff in the most positive way. I don't want to get into an argument about who meant what anyway.
I'm glad this video got translated, too many foreigners are stuck in the mindset of thinking there is any replacement for hard work. Every issue you have could be solved by playing the game more.
On April 01 2021 15:21 evilfatsh1t wrote:...and i definitely disagree with nematocyst that 4 hours of practice is better than 12. thats just flat out wrong.
Do you disagree with what I actually wrote? It's pretty rude to change what I said and then disagree. We have quote for a reason.
On April 02 2021 00:48 TaardadAiel wrote: Arguing about the best practice regimen with calls for hard data or any kind of evidence is kinda pointless, since we don't really have a control group with the same baseline characteristics. A bunch of factors have made the Korean StarCraft scene the best in the world and the rigorous practice routine is just one of them.
The optimal practice regimen is basically unknown to us - heck, even their practice regimen back in the day is unknown to us. Do we know anything about warning-up routine to prevent strain on the structures of the upper limb? Professional musicians even warm DOWN on occasion (John Myung, the bass player for Dream Theater, off the top of my head). Was ergonomics taken into account? If it did, at what point of the development of the pro scene? To what degree? Probably different coaches had different coaching styles, do we know details about them? Maybe some old-timer die-hard fans on this website can shed some light on these issues, that would help the discussion. Don't forget, esports coaching was basically developed then, people were learning on the job and that's completely understandable. We might discuss things now with the benefit of hindsight that they didn't, and that's completely understandable too. And I'm just skimming the surface here.
My point is, "practice" might mean a lot of things and it does absolutely no wrong to discuss (theorize, in fact) ways to optimize practice regimens. I suppose those guys knew that what they're doing will have a price, everything has a price, although they were pretty young at that time. This is beyond the scope of the discussion. I think it's fine to think about ways to reduce the risk of injury; even if the ways proposed are wrong or lead to an unacceptable reduction in performance, such a discussion still has merit.
It doesn't sound like it was very sofisticated other than playplayplay and git gudd
at this point i just accept that esports is relatively young and their overall methodologies/practices are still generally low-brow and innovation in it is restricted to the whims of certain exceptional players and coaches (seeing players serral and reynor and his coach lambo in sc2 for example). hard work is important but SMART WORK and more project-oriented approaches are far more significant if u want to actually see continued success and to ensure that even the average player can have a comfortable career and post career prospects.
On April 01 2021 15:21 evilfatsh1t wrote:...and i definitely disagree with nematocyst that 4 hours of practice is better than 12. thats just flat out wrong.
Do you disagree with what I actually wrote? It's pretty rude to change what I said and then disagree. We have quote for a reason.
It's pretty rude to act like you know better about what makes successful progamers than the people that actually made it happen. The absolute ego of some of these armchair coaches is appalling.
On April 01 2021 15:21 evilfatsh1t wrote:...and i definitely disagree with nematocyst that 4 hours of practice is better than 12. thats just flat out wrong.
Do you disagree with what I actually wrote? It's pretty rude to change what I said and then disagree. We have quote for a reason.
It's pretty rude to act like you know better about what makes successful progamers than the people that actually made it happen. The absolute ego of some of these armchair coaches is appalling.
do u actually believe 100% in this kind of banal training approach, where its basically no different from a chinese MMO sweatshop where the only KPI is the amount of hours you put in, long term health/prospects be damned. disappointing if u do
It's pretty rude to act like you know better about what makes successful progamers than the people that actually made it happen. The absolute ego of some of these armchair coaches is appalling.
I'm amazed the things you divine from what I actually wrote.
On April 01 2021 15:21 evilfatsh1t wrote:...and i definitely disagree with nematocyst that 4 hours of practice is better than 12. thats just flat out wrong.
Do you disagree with what I actually wrote? It's pretty rude to change what I said and then disagree. We have quote for a reason.
It's pretty rude to act like you know better about what makes successful progamers than the people that actually made it happen. The absolute ego of some of these armchair coaches is appalling.
do u actually believe 100% in this kind of banal training approach, where its basically no different from a chinese MMO sweatshop where the only KPI is the amount of hours you put in, long term health/prospects be damned. disappointing if u do
I believe in the actual results over some idle words from a barely-literate forum shitposter 15 years later.
It's pretty rude to act like you know better about what makes successful progamers than the people that actually made it happen. The absolute ego of some of these armchair coaches is appalling.
I'm amazed the things you divine from what I actually wrote.
If the responders' interpretation of what you wrote is that it is moronic and arrogant, but it isn't what you actually meant, then you didn't really convey your idea well enough.
I believe in the actual results over some idle words from a barely-literate forum shitposter 15 years later.
do u even realise that there isn't really any "actual results" except for those at the very top end? even now only a extreme small percentage can actually sustain a living through afreeca streaming, for the rest its just a hobby/side income or they are forced to diversify to other games/activities. and even those at the top end are seeing severe health consequences because of extreme neglect towards other aspects of player development besides grinding. Wanton ignorance of a need for more refined approaches to training that can now be seen in other sports just speaks volume of your entitlements and lack of compassion for any of these players.
On April 02 2021 13:35 Optimate wrote: Please refrain from calling other users name like shitposter as it is unkind.
yeah its sad i always thought of him as a more level headed person.
On April 02 2021 00:48 TaardadAiel wrote: Arguing about the best practice regimen with calls for hard data or any kind of evidence is kinda pointless, since we don't really have a control group with the same baseline characteristics. A bunch of factors have made the Korean StarCraft scene the best in the world and the rigorous practice routine is just one of them.
The optimal practice regimen is basically unknown to us - heck, even their practice regimen back in the day is unknown to us. Do we know anything about warning-up routine to prevent strain on the structures of the upper limb? Professional musicians even warm DOWN on occasion (John Myung, the bass player for Dream Theater, off the top of my head). Was ergonomics taken into account? If it did, at what point of the development of the pro scene? To what degree? Probably different coaches had different coaching styles, do we know details about them? Maybe some old-timer die-hard fans on this website can shed some light on these issues, that would help the discussion. Don't forget, esports coaching was basically developed then, people were learning on the job and that's completely understandable. We might discuss things now with the benefit of hindsight that they didn't, and that's completely understandable too. And I'm just skimming the surface here.
My point is, "practice" might mean a lot of things and it does absolutely no wrong to discuss (theorize, in fact) ways to optimize practice regimens. I suppose those guys knew that what they're doing will have a price, everything has a price, although they were pretty young at that time. This is beyond the scope of the discussion. I think it's fine to think about ways to reduce the risk of injury; even if the ways proposed are wrong or lead to an unacceptable reduction in performance, such a discussion still has merit.
It doesn't sound like it was very sofisticated other than playplayplay and git gudd
at this point i just accept that esports is relatively young and their overall methodologies/practices are still generally low-brow and innovation in it is restricted to the whims of certain exceptional players and coaches (seeing players serral and reynor and his coach lambo in sc2 for example). hard work is important but SMART WORK and more project-oriented approaches are far more significant if u want to actually see continued success and to ensure that even the average player can have a comfortable career and post career prospects.
please stop with this enlightened coaching bullshit. you dont know wtf youre talking about, or you would be a multi-title winning coach yourself. youre pretty much spewing the same "forced slavery sweatshop" crap as timebones and its stupid. the players chose that life because thats what it took. like seriously how difficult is it to understand the fundamental idea that if a lot of your competitors are putting in x amount of hours, unless youre fucking faker and have an extremely rare gift, you have to at the very least match the hours your peers are putting in. this goes for anything in life, not even just sport. if you want to keep up with other people you put in the effort. its that fucking simple if you want to be bang average at everything in life and not put in the effort to be better at something than others, good for you. or maybe youre a 1/1000000 freak that can actually put his words where his own mouth is and "work smarter" to achieve results. but the majority of people arent like that, so they grind through life to make something of themselves. instead of shitting on their efforts why dont you show some respect for the sacrifices they made to get where they are. fucking appalling how users of a site dedicated to gaming has so little consideration for the sacrifices progamers made. i dare you to go to last's (quite honestly a mid tier pro during the proleague days with no major accomplishment, now with damaged wrists) stream and say to his face that he was an idiot to grind 12+ hours a day because he has nothing to show for it but fucked up wrists. let me know how that goes
and to comment on the vid that timebones put up. a discussion between probably the most salty guy in starcraft esports (artosis) and 2 foreign pros who werent able to keep up with the practice regimes and not so coincidentally couldnt replicate results anywhere near korean pros. and these guys are saying that the korean practice routines didnt work. rofl. all i see is 3 foreigners unable to accept that they just didnt have what it took to match the koreans. the results speak for themselves.
On April 02 2021 00:48 TaardadAiel wrote: Arguing about the best practice regimen with calls for hard data or any kind of evidence is kinda pointless, since we don't really have a control group with the same baseline characteristics. A bunch of factors have made the Korean StarCraft scene the best in the world and the rigorous practice routine is just one of them.
The optimal practice regimen is basically unknown to us - heck, even their practice regimen back in the day is unknown to us. Do we know anything about warning-up routine to prevent strain on the structures of the upper limb? Professional musicians even warm DOWN on occasion (John Myung, the bass player for Dream Theater, off the top of my head). Was ergonomics taken into account? If it did, at what point of the development of the pro scene? To what degree? Probably different coaches had different coaching styles, do we know details about them? Maybe some old-timer die-hard fans on this website can shed some light on these issues, that would help the discussion. Don't forget, esports coaching was basically developed then, people were learning on the job and that's completely understandable. We might discuss things now with the benefit of hindsight that they didn't, and that's completely understandable too. And I'm just skimming the surface here.
My point is, "practice" might mean a lot of things and it does absolutely no wrong to discuss (theorize, in fact) ways to optimize practice regimens. I suppose those guys knew that what they're doing will have a price, everything has a price, although they were pretty young at that time. This is beyond the scope of the discussion. I think it's fine to think about ways to reduce the risk of injury; even if the ways proposed are wrong or lead to an unacceptable reduction in performance, such a discussion still has merit.
It doesn't sound like it was very sofisticated other than playplayplay and git gudd
at this point i just accept that esports is relatively young and their overall methodologies/practices are still generally low-brow and innovation in it is restricted to the whims of certain exceptional players and coaches (seeing players serral and reynor and his coach lambo in sc2 for example). hard work is important but SMART WORK and more project-oriented approaches are far more significant if u want to actually see continued success and to ensure that even the average player can have a comfortable career and post career prospects.
please stop with this enlightened coaching bullshit. you dont know wtf youre talking about, or you would be a multi-title winning coach yourself. youre pretty much spewing the same "forced slavery sweatshop" crap as timebones and its stupid. the players chose that life because thats what it took. like seriously how difficult is it to understand the fundamental idea that if a lot of your competitors are putting in x amount of hours, unless youre fucking faker and have an extremely rare gift, you have to at the very least match the hours your peers are putting in. this goes for anything in life, not even just sport. if you want to keep up with other people you put in the effort. its that fucking simple if you want to be bang average at everything in life and not put in the effort to be better at something than others, good for you. or maybe youre a 1/1000000 freak that can actually put his words where his own mouth is and "work smarter" to achieve results. but the majority of people arent like that, so they grind through life to make something of themselves. instead of shitting on their efforts why dont you show some respect for the sacrifices they made to get where they are. fucking appalling how users of a site dedicated to gaming has so little consideration for the sacrifices progamers made. i dare you to go to last's (quite honestly a mid tier pro during the proleague days with no major accomplishment, now with damaged wrists) stream and say to his face that he was an idiot to grind 12+ hours a day because he has nothing to show for it but fucked up wrists. let me know how that goes
i literally posted in your quoted post that hard work is important. you didnt even read that and just continue on your tangent on just because hard work suddenly means you are a better person or that you are entitiled to something. guess what? there are people who barely put in any effort in their life and yet already reap all the rewards that most people will never see their lifetime (those are lucky enough to be born in rich/royal families basically). why don't u go scream at them lmao?
my narrative has always been about calling for a need for adjustments/refinements to their training approaches to ensure that injuries are minimized players welfare are always on top, all without disrupting the rigour of their training. obviously im not a top tier coach but this things are so fucking common sense that you have to be sociopath to ignore it.
On April 02 2021 00:48 TaardadAiel wrote: Arguing about the best practice regimen with calls for hard data or any kind of evidence is kinda pointless, since we don't really have a control group with the same baseline characteristics. A bunch of factors have made the Korean StarCraft scene the best in the world and the rigorous practice routine is just one of them.
The optimal practice regimen is basically unknown to us - heck, even their practice regimen back in the day is unknown to us. Do we know anything about warning-up routine to prevent strain on the structures of the upper limb? Professional musicians even warm DOWN on occasion (John Myung, the bass player for Dream Theater, off the top of my head). Was ergonomics taken into account? If it did, at what point of the development of the pro scene? To what degree? Probably different coaches had different coaching styles, do we know details about them? Maybe some old-timer die-hard fans on this website can shed some light on these issues, that would help the discussion. Don't forget, esports coaching was basically developed then, people were learning on the job and that's completely understandable. We might discuss things now with the benefit of hindsight that they didn't, and that's completely understandable too. And I'm just skimming the surface here.
My point is, "practice" might mean a lot of things and it does absolutely no wrong to discuss (theorize, in fact) ways to optimize practice regimens. I suppose those guys knew that what they're doing will have a price, everything has a price, although they were pretty young at that time. This is beyond the scope of the discussion. I think it's fine to think about ways to reduce the risk of injury; even if the ways proposed are wrong or lead to an unacceptable reduction in performance, such a discussion still has merit.
It doesn't sound like it was very sofisticated other than playplayplay and git gudd
at this point i just accept that esports is relatively young and their overall methodologies/practices are still generally low-brow and innovation in it is restricted to the whims of certain exceptional players and coaches (seeing players serral and reynor and his coach lambo in sc2 for example). hard work is important but SMART WORK and more project-oriented approaches are far more significant if u want to actually see continued success and to ensure that even the average player can have a comfortable career and post career prospects.
please stop with this enlightened coaching bullshit. you dont know wtf youre talking about, or you would be a multi-title winning coach yourself. youre pretty much spewing the same "forced slavery sweatshop" crap as timebones and its stupid. the players chose that life because thats what it took. like seriously how difficult is it to understand the fundamental idea that if a lot of your competitors are putting in x amount of hours, unless youre fucking faker and have an extremely rare gift, you have to at the very least match the hours your peers are putting in. this goes for anything in life, not even just sport. if you want to keep up with other people you put in the effort. its that fucking simple if you want to be bang average at everything in life and not put in the effort to be better at something than others, good for you. or maybe youre a 1/1000000 freak that can actually put his words where his own mouth is and "work smarter" to achieve results. but the majority of people arent like that, so they grind through life to make something of themselves. instead of shitting on their efforts why dont you show some respect for the sacrifices they made to get where they are. fucking appalling how users of a site dedicated to gaming has so little consideration for the sacrifices progamers made. i dare you to go to last's (quite honestly a mid tier pro during the proleague days with no major accomplishment, now with damaged wrists) stream and say to his face that he was an idiot to grind 12+ hours a day because he has nothing to show for it but fucked up wrists. let me know how that goes
i literally posted in your quoted post that hard work is important. you didnt even read that and just continue on your tangent on just because hard work suddenly means you are a better person or that you are entitiled to something. guess what? there are people who barely put in any effort in their life and yet already reap all the rewards that most people will never see their lifetime (those are lucky enough to be born in rich/royal families basically). why don't u go scream at them lmao?
my narrative has always been about calling for a need for adjustments/refinements to their training approaches to ensure that injuries are minimized players welfare are always on top, all without disrupting the rigour of their training. obviously im not a top tier coach but this things are so fucking common sense that you have to be sociopath to ignore it.
where have i stated in any of my posts that hard work automatically means youre better or that youre entitled to something? dont put words in my mouth. and wtf is the bolded part about? how is that even remotely relevant to this discussion? take your wealth inequality bullshit elsewhere i like that you pointed out that your stance is a narrative. you have no evidence to support your claim that adjustments to the training programs could be made that simultaneously reduced injuries and maintained their practice workload. you proposed therapy for best once. how do you think thats gonna work in a teamhouse setting? youre gonna ask the coaches to pay for your therapy because youre a choker, and therefore need months of sessions to work through this mental block? hes in competition with other people. the moment he goes to a coach and says "i need therapy because of my own incompetence", hes risking the coaches thinking that hes not cut out for the job and will replace him. the coaches jobs arent to be the players parent. whether or not the player has a future after progaming is irrelevant to the coaches. thats a concern for the player, not the coach. get off your high horse and stop critiquing with the benefit of hindsight that the coaches mistreated the players and the players were dumb to grind like slaves. they did the best they could because they wanted success and they were willing to pay the price. end of story
People DO need to work smarter, that's why they have coaches/mentors/whatever. Even structuring and organizing it is smarter than just blindly banging your head against the wall. No reason not to try and take an extra step, try to make it better, probably safer. Don't consider that a substitute for hard work but rather an addition to it. And that the Korean coaches didn't do it is perfectly fine, they really were learning on the job.
Go and see any aspiring football kid. See if they just play 90-minute games over and over, without practicing passing, movement with the ball, without the ball, shooting set pieces, going to the gym for basic fitness etc. Coaches might tell them what to eat and when, and even bother telling them why.
All of this is meant to learn to do stuff better without hurting yourself in the process.
On April 02 2021 14:39 TaardadAiel wrote: People DO need to work smarter, that's why they have coaches/mentors/whatever. Even structuring and organizing it is smarter than just blindly banging your head against the wall. No reason not to try and take an extra step, try to make it better, probably safer. Don't consider that a substitute for hard work but rather an addition to it. And that the Korean coaches didn't do it is perfectly fine, they really were learning on the job.
Go and see any aspiring football kid. See if they just play 90-minute games over and over, without practicing passing, movement with the ball, without the ball, shooting set pieces, going to the gym for basic fitness etc. Coaches might tell them what to eat and when, and even bother telling them why.
All of this is meant to learn to do stuff better without hurting yourself in the process.
i dont disagree that coaches need to optimise training. thats their job. being intelligent about the way you coach and the way players train is what every coach thinks about. what i disagree with is the casual dismissal of methods employed by coaches and players during those days by a handful of nobodies sitting at home. to have the audacity to claim that the coaches didnt take into consideration the fact that 12 hours of practice is a difficult regime and the potential for wrists injuries was problematic is ridiculous. these coaches were paid very respectable salaries to produce results and just like how the players compete with each other, coaches are in the same position. "how could i train my players differently to produce results better than other teams?". what makes these guys on tl think that the coaches didnt think of this every day? and if after all that contemplation led to no major change, then that was the limit of their understanding or technology of their time. ~15 years later some armchair coaches are like "they should have done this or that, and they were stupid to not employ these methods and treated the players like slaves". absolutely embarrassing
I don’t understand how it’s egotistical to question if it’s optimal to grind out games all day without access to non-BW internet or a TV. It was a nascent profession where pro gaming was a new thing, never mind the lag period to have coaches with the requisite skillset and experience of being involved in the game at a high level.
Go find me any kind of study that recommends such an approach, it’s not rocket science.
Kespa teams themselves toned it down from the early days and adopted a more sophisticated approach over time.
There’s also a world of difference between obtaining a level of proficiency and maintaining it.
A world class musician, or a relatively decent scrub like me put in tons of hours honing our respective crafts. Once you have the chops it’s maintaining them, or improving specific areas or stretching out and learning new things. To even get to my level takes a ton of hours grinding the mechanics especially, doesn’t take me much to keep them reasonably sharp though.
To create a Jaedong you’re going to need a serious grind yeah, once he’s Jaedong though the maintainence of his mechanics probably isn’t going to need 12 hour a day grinds or whatever.
I think it’s largely moot as even in a slightly more relaxed environment Jaedong seems the kind of guy with an insane work ethic and pride in that, so he’d probably put in excess hours in his own time anyway.
On April 02 2021 14:39 TaardadAiel wrote: People DO need to work smarter, that's why they have coaches/mentors/whatever. Even structuring and organizing it is smarter than just blindly banging your head against the wall. No reason not to try and take an extra step, try to make it better, probably safer. Don't consider that a substitute for hard work but rather an addition to it. And that the Korean coaches didn't do it is perfectly fine, they really were learning on the job.
Go and see any aspiring football kid. See if they just play 90-minute games over and over, without practicing passing, movement with the ball, without the ball, shooting set pieces, going to the gym for basic fitness etc. Coaches might tell them what to eat and when, and even bother telling them why.
All of this is meant to learn to do stuff better without hurting yourself in the process.
i dont disagree that coaches need to optimise training. thats their job. being intelligent about the way you coach and the way players train is what every coach thinks about. what i disagree with is the casual dismissal of methods employed by coaches and players during those days by a handful of nobodies sitting at home. to have the audacity to claim that the coaches didnt take into consideration the fact that 12 hours of practice is a difficult regime and the potential for wrists injuries was problematic is ridiculous. these coaches were paid very respectable salaries to produce results and just like how the players compete with each other, coaches are in the same position. "how could i train my players differently to produce results better than other teams?". what makes these guys on tl think that the coaches didnt think of this every day? and if after all that contemplation led to no major change, then that was the limit of their understanding or technology of their time. ~15 years later some armchair coaches are like "they should have done this or that, and they were stupid to not employ these methods and treated the players like slaves". absolutely embarrassing
As I said, I think you're just taking it too far. I wouldn't assume that nobody on this website has put anything near the effort these guys have in whatever their profession is (pauline shared his own experience though), but that may very well be the case since they are in fact at the very top. Not to mention that, as you pointed out, the philosophy behind being an athlete is very different. So we're just chilling and theorizing on a website, I don't think it's terribly disrespectful or embarrassing to state that there probably is a better way with the benefit of hindsight. Such a discussion might lead to nothing, but it doesn't hurt anybody. A discussion like the one right now leads to useless tension between us. You have made your point and it's valid, really.
On April 02 2021 14:39 TaardadAiel wrote: People DO need to work smarter, that's why they have coaches/mentors/whatever. Even structuring and organizing it is smarter than just blindly banging your head against the wall. No reason not to try and take an extra step, try to make it better, probably safer. Don't consider that a substitute for hard work but rather an addition to it. And that the Korean coaches didn't do it is perfectly fine, they really were learning on the job.
Go and see any aspiring football kid. See if they just play 90-minute games over and over, without practicing passing, movement with the ball, without the ball, shooting set pieces, going to the gym for basic fitness etc. Coaches might tell them what to eat and when, and even bother telling them why.
All of this is meant to learn to do stuff better without hurting yourself in the process.
i dont disagree that coaches need to optimise training. thats their job. being intelligent about the way you coach and the way players train is what every coach thinks about. what i disagree with is the casual dismissal of methods employed by coaches and players during those days by a handful of nobodies sitting at home. to have the audacity to claim that the coaches didnt take into consideration the fact that 12 hours of practice is a difficult regime and the potential for wrists injuries was problematic is ridiculous. these coaches were paid very respectable salaries to produce results and just like how the players compete with each other, coaches are in the same position. "how could i train my players differently to produce results better than other teams?". what makes these guys on tl think that the coaches didnt think of this every day? and if after all that contemplation led to no major change, then that was the limit of their understanding or technology of their time. ~15 years later some armchair coaches are like "they should have done this or that, and they were stupid to not employ these methods and treated the players like slaves". absolutely embarrassing
As I said, I think you're just taking it too far. I wouldn't assume that nobody on this website has put anything near the effort these guys have in whatever their profession is (pauline shared his own experience though), but that may very well be the case since they are in fact at the very top. Not to mention that, as you pointed out, the philosophy behind being an athlete is very different. So we're just chilling and theorizing on a website, I don't think it's terribly disrespectful or embarrassing to state that there probably is a better way with the benefit of hindsight. Such a discussion might lead to nothing, but it doesn't hurt anybody. A discussion like the one right now leads to useless tension between us. You have made your point and it's valid, really.
its the classic fallacy "if you are not a (top) cook you shouldn't be allowed to criticise food!"
its fine for to make points like his, but now hes going overboard to the point that he is insinuating that its ok for progamers to destroy their health as long as they get their "results" and people are entertained, and there are zero alternative approaches to counter this, negating anyone else who says otherwise with above fallacy
I'm not as concerned with him or you or whoever even being right as I am concerned with a heated argument that leads only to calling names and a temp ban for Jealous. I'm content with being proven wrong. I'm content even with heated discussions, really, but this is personal when I don't think it should be.
On April 02 2021 14:51 WombaT wrote: I don’t understand how it’s egotistical to question if it’s optimal to grind out games all day without access to non-BW internet or a TV. It was a nascent profession where pro gaming was a new thing, never mind the lag period to have coaches with the requisite skillset and experience of being involved in the game at a high level.
Go find me any kind of study that recommends such an approach, it’s not rocket science.
Kespa teams themselves toned it down from the early days and adopted a more sophisticated approach over time.
There’s also a world of difference between obtaining a level of proficiency and maintaining it.
A world class musician, or a relatively decent scrub like me put in tons of hours honing our respective crafts. Once you have the chops it’s maintaining them, or improving specific areas or stretching out and learning new things. To even get to my level takes a ton of hours grinding the mechanics especially, doesn’t take me much to keep them reasonably sharp though.
To create a Jaedong you’re going to need a serious grind yeah, once he’s Jaedong though the maintainence of his mechanics probably isn’t going to need 12 hour a day grinds or whatever.
I think it’s largely moot as even in a slightly more relaxed environment Jaedong seems the kind of guy with an insane work ethic and pride in that, so he’d probably put in excess hours in his own time anyway.
he explicitly says in the linked video that he performed well in 2013 because of his previous grinds, and he fell off in 2014 because he stopped grinding. like i said, theyre in competition with other people. his skill may not have changed between 2013-14 and like you said, he may have maintained his level with a more relaxed workload. however when everyone is trying to surpass you then the minute you rest on your laurels youre out of the game. this was an idea that the koreans knew all too well because its the culture theyre brought up in since they first enter school. 2009 tbls were ahead of their curve. in 2011 tbls was still ahead of their curve, but 2011 tbls was undeniably better than 2009 tbls. you dont get ahead of the curve and then STAY ahead of the curve by slacking off.
On April 02 2021 14:39 TaardadAiel wrote: People DO need to work smarter, that's why they have coaches/mentors/whatever. Even structuring and organizing it is smarter than just blindly banging your head against the wall. No reason not to try and take an extra step, try to make it better, probably safer. Don't consider that a substitute for hard work but rather an addition to it. And that the Korean coaches didn't do it is perfectly fine, they really were learning on the job.
Go and see any aspiring football kid. See if they just play 90-minute games over and over, without practicing passing, movement with the ball, without the ball, shooting set pieces, going to the gym for basic fitness etc. Coaches might tell them what to eat and when, and even bother telling them why.
All of this is meant to learn to do stuff better without hurting yourself in the process.
i dont disagree that coaches need to optimise training. thats their job. being intelligent about the way you coach and the way players train is what every coach thinks about. what i disagree with is the casual dismissal of methods employed by coaches and players during those days by a handful of nobodies sitting at home. to have the audacity to claim that the coaches didnt take into consideration the fact that 12 hours of practice is a difficult regime and the potential for wrists injuries was problematic is ridiculous. these coaches were paid very respectable salaries to produce results and just like how the players compete with each other, coaches are in the same position. "how could i train my players differently to produce results better than other teams?". what makes these guys on tl think that the coaches didnt think of this every day? and if after all that contemplation led to no major change, then that was the limit of their understanding or technology of their time. ~15 years later some armchair coaches are like "they should have done this or that, and they were stupid to not employ these methods and treated the players like slaves". absolutely embarrassing
As I said, I think you're just taking it too far. I wouldn't assume that nobody on this website has put anything near the effort these guys have in whatever their profession is (pauline shared his own experience though), but that may very well be the case since they are in fact at the very top. Not to mention that, as you pointed out, the philosophy behind being an athlete is very different. So we're just chilling and theorizing on a website, I don't think it's terribly disrespectful or embarrassing to state that there probably is a better way with the benefit of hindsight. Such a discussion might lead to nothing, but it doesn't hurt anybody. A discussion like the one right now leads to useless tension between us. You have made your point and it's valid, really.
its the classic fallacy "if you are not a (top) cook you shouldn't be allowed to criticise food!"
its fine for to make points like his, but now hes going overboard to the point that he is insinuating that its ok for progamers to destroy their health as long as they get their "results" and people are entertained, and there are zero alternative approaches to counter this, negating anyone else who says otherwise with above fallacy
you must be illiterate or something because youre constantly missing the point. its not for us to judge whether its ok that their healths deteriorated or not. they themselves were fine with it. if theyre not complaining that the training was too tough and they thought their deteriorated health was an acceptable price to pay, why are you up in arms about their teamhouse conditions? the more you argue they were wrong to train like that the more you discredit their effort.
I didn’t need to be called a nobody, I already knew that!
I suppose a parallel would be ‘crunch’ periods game developers (and many in other fields) have to undergo.
From what I’ve read on the topic if you’re personally enthused, don’t have other commitments like kiddos and a project is well-managed, then you can be very productive for a period. If it’s obligated less so, and even in the former there’s a drop off in your output if it’s prolonged.
Basically anything I’ve read on productivity in work per hour, or education tends to say that shorter is better, be it in a shorter work day, or a learning environment that has short bursts of material, breaks and then that cycles.
Pro BW is a bit different, it’s a dream of these guys and it’s incredibly mechanically demanding, plus unlike musicians players have to react to situations and be prepared for all sorts of scenarios so they can instinctively do the right thing. Plus it’s a dream for these people too, so direct comparisons to other fields aren’t always going to see the correct answer.
That said in combination from other areas, I don’t think one can say the scenario Jaedong described, or what Nony, Ret and Idra have said about their time sounds at all optimal when factoring in burnout/injuries, efficiency of time and also in terms of pastoral care to young men who’ve dropped their schooling to enter that system.
From what I’ve read when top pros like oov circulated back in as coaches things were a bit less crude and grindy and while hard work was still paramount time was more productively managed and more of a work-life balance came into the mix.
Wasn't there a point in time where coaches recognized that this lifestyle is way too sedentary to be healthy and promoted outdoor activities like football and the like? I have a vague memory about JD in particularl, but I might be wrong.
keep in mind that these discussions about 12+ hours days doesnt mean it was 12+ hours for 365 days. theres still time allocated for theorycrafting/analysis, in house scrims etc. skt was known to play soccer occasionally with i think mbc? best was well known for going to the gym in his free time regularly. were talking about the average grinding day being 12+ hours, with players putting in even more hours by using their free time if they wanted (bisu, jd). these werent some human rights abusing sweatshops
Hell, when I was a young resident I'd spend time after the end of my shift to see how my patients are doing and how the other guys would approach their conditions, then go home, take a bath and look up all kinds of problems I encountered during the shift in available literature while having dinner. Then I'd call the night shift and ask how the patients were doing before going to sleep. I'd go and do procedures I'm less familiar with on my own free time on weekends when I'm off duty and the like. And I'm just a regular doc in eastern Europe and I didn't work at a big academic institution. I'm less inclined to do that now, though. So, yeah, internal drive makes a big difference.
On April 02 2021 15:43 evilfatsh1t wrote: keep in mind that these discussions about 12+ hours days doesnt mean it was 12+ hours for 365 days. theres still time allocated for theorycrafting/analysis, in house scrims etc. skt was known to play soccer occasionally with i think mbc? best was well known for going to the gym in his free time regularly. were talking about the average grinding day being 12+ hours, with players putting in even more hours by using their free time if they wanted (bisu, jd). these werent some human rights abusing sweatshops
Yeah definitely, not sure if gym sessions were at the outset or something that were added over time to compensate for the sedentary life.
Seemed to get results i heard that NaDa works out and has a pretty good body. I think I saw a picture on here but i cant find it.
On April 02 2021 15:43 evilfatsh1t wrote: keep in mind that these discussions about 12+ hours days doesnt mean it was 12+ hours for 365 days. theres still time allocated for theorycrafting/analysis, in house scrims etc. skt was known to play soccer occasionally with i think mbc? best was well known for going to the gym in his free time regularly. were talking about the average grinding day being 12+ hours, with players putting in even more hours by using their free time if they wanted (bisu, jd). these werent some human rights abusing sweatshops
Yeah definitely, not sure if gym sessions were at the outset or something that were added over time to compensate for the sedentary life.
Seemed to get results i heard that NaDa works out and has a pretty good body. I think I saw a picture on here but i cant find it.
Legend has it that there's a thread on a website dedicated to that.
On April 02 2021 15:43 evilfatsh1t wrote: keep in mind that these discussions about 12+ hours days doesnt mean it was 12+ hours for 365 days. theres still time allocated for theorycrafting/analysis, in house scrims etc. skt was known to play soccer occasionally with i think mbc? best was well known for going to the gym in his free time regularly. were talking about the average grinding day being 12+ hours, with players putting in even more hours by using their free time if they wanted (bisu, jd). these werent some human rights abusing sweatshops
Yeah definitely, not sure if gym sessions were at the outset or something that were added over time to compensate for the sedentary life.
Seemed to get results i heard that NaDa works out and has a pretty good body. I think I saw a picture on here but i cant find it.
Legend has it that there's a thread on a website dedicated to that.
On April 02 2021 00:48 TaardadAiel wrote: Arguing about the best practice regimen with calls for hard data or any kind of evidence is kinda pointless, since we don't really have a control group with the same baseline characteristics. A bunch of factors have made the Korean StarCraft scene the best in the world and the rigorous practice routine is just one of them.
The optimal practice regimen is basically unknown to us - heck, even their practice regimen back in the day is unknown to us. Do we know anything about warning-up routine to prevent strain on the structures of the upper limb? Professional musicians even warm DOWN on occasion (John Myung, the bass player for Dream Theater, off the top of my head). Was ergonomics taken into account? If it did, at what point of the development of the pro scene? To what degree? Probably different coaches had different coaching styles, do we know details about them? Maybe some old-timer die-hard fans on this website can shed some light on these issues, that would help the discussion. Don't forget, esports coaching was basically developed then, people were learning on the job and that's completely understandable. We might discuss things now with the benefit of hindsight that they didn't, and that's completely understandable too. And I'm just skimming the surface here.
My point is, "practice" might mean a lot of things and it does absolutely no wrong to discuss (theorize, in fact) ways to optimize practice regimens. I suppose those guys knew that what they're doing will have a price, everything has a price, although they were pretty young at that time. This is beyond the scope of the discussion. I think it's fine to think about ways to reduce the risk of injury; even if the ways proposed are wrong or lead to an unacceptable reduction in performance, such a discussion still has merit.
It doesn't sound like it was very sofisticated other than playplayplay and git gudd
at this point i just accept that esports is relatively young and their overall methodologies/practices are still generally low-brow and innovation in it is restricted to the whims of certain exceptional players and coaches (seeing players serral and reynor and his coach lambo in sc2 for example). hard work is important but SMART WORK and more project-oriented approaches are far more significant if u want to actually see continued success and to ensure that even the average player can have a comfortable career and post career prospects.
please stop with this enlightened coaching bullshit. you dont know wtf youre talking about, or you would be a multi-title winning coach yourself. youre pretty much spewing the same "forced slavery sweatshop" crap as timebones and its stupid. the players chose that life because thats what it took. like seriously how difficult is it to understand the fundamental idea that if a lot of your competitors are putting in x amount of hours, unless youre fucking faker and have an extremely rare gift, you have to at the very least match the hours your peers are putting in. this goes for anything in life, not even just sport. if you want to keep up with other people you put in the effort. its that fucking simple if you want to be bang average at everything in life and not put in the effort to be better at something than others, good for you. or maybe youre a 1/1000000 freak that can actually put his words where his own mouth is and "work smarter" to achieve results. but the majority of people arent like that, so they grind through life to make something of themselves. instead of shitting on their efforts why dont you show some respect for the sacrifices they made to get where they are. fucking appalling how users of a site dedicated to gaming has so little consideration for the sacrifices progamers made. i dare you to go to last's (quite honestly a mid tier pro during the proleague days with no major accomplishment, now with damaged wrists) stream and say to his face that he was an idiot to grind 12+ hours a day because he has nothing to show for it but fucked up wrists. let me know how that goes
i literally posted in your quoted post that hard work is important. you didnt even read that and just continue on your tangent on just because hard work suddenly means you are a better person or that you are entitiled to something. guess what? there are people who barely put in any effort in their life and yet already reap all the rewards that most people will never see their lifetime (those are lucky enough to be born in rich/royal families basically). why don't u go scream at them lmao?
my narrative has always been about calling for a need for adjustments/refinements to their training approaches to ensure that injuries are minimized players welfare are always on top, all without disrupting the rigour of their training. obviously im not a top tier coach but this things are so fucking common sense that you have to be sociopath to ignore it.
where have i stated in any of my posts that hard work automatically means youre better or that youre entitled to something? dont put words in my mouth. and wtf is the bolded part about? how is that even remotely relevant to this discussion? take your wealth inequality bullshit elsewhere i like that you pointed out that your stance is a narrative. you have no evidence to support your claim that adjustments to the training programs could be made that simultaneously reduced injuries and maintained their practice workload. you proposed therapy for best once. how do you think thats gonna work in a teamhouse setting? youre gonna ask the coaches to pay for your therapy because youre a choker, and therefore need months of sessions to work through this mental block? hes in competition with other people. the moment he goes to a coach and says "i need therapy because of my own incompetence", hes risking the coaches thinking that hes not cut out for the job and will replace him. the coaches jobs arent to be the players parent. whether or not the player has a future after progaming is irrelevant to the coaches. thats a concern for the player, not the coach. get off your high horse and stop critiquing with the benefit of hindsight that the coaches mistreated the players and the players were dumb to grind like slaves. they did the best they could because they wanted success and they were willing to pay the price. end of story
Mental training is something a lot of athletes use, therapy is more than talking about your personal problems, it can be help to deal with the pressure that comes from performing in front of a group of people. A lot of pros “choke” and if some cognitive behavioral therapy could work for them, it would be a mistake to dismiss a player who is asking for help to better himself.
Erling Braut Haaland is one of the best up and coming football players today and he’s using meditation to better himself. You can practice in other ways than doing the exact same thing as your sport is. If he had kicked the ball for 15 hours a day I’m not sure that would be better.
There is more to proper practice than doing one thing over and over and over again. Most people understand this. And while it’s not up to the coaches to be their parents, it’s their job to make them perform as good as they possibly can, using all the right tools and treat each player as an individual that needs to practice what works best for him.
i think the most extreme practice schedules are too extreme. high quality sleep and regular exercise should be priorities. still, after that, you can fit in a ton of practice. 12 hours is tough but it'd be doable. 9 hours with lights off, an hour for exercise, and 2 hours for hygiene and meals. if you don't exercise too hard, you sleep well, and you eat healthy food, you can spend most of the 12 hours playing. but you can take some time to obs games as well and have short chats or 5min breaks. but it's not impossible to do 4 hours of constant games. with bw, the game starts slow enough that you can mentally rest for the first few mins or more. i'd have sessions of literally playing the same person non-stop for 4 hours straight (4 hours was the longest consecutive practice time we had between meals). doing 3x sessions of 4 hours each with a very high percentage of those 4 hours spent in-game is not that absurd
is it necessary or optimal? hard to say. before i went to korea i practiced for ~6 hours a day and strongly felt that i only needed higher quality practice partners to raise my skill level, not more practice time. i'd much rather take the safest approach to increasing skill, like change one variable at a time, rather than radically changing my regimen. so imo continuing to practice 6 hours a day against higher skill players would raise my skill level, why risk changing anything else? but for team camaraderie, i couldn't be an exception, so i had to do the same schedule as everyone else (in fact, it was just the highest skill players who got exceptions or extra privilege, especially being A-team was a big status change over B-team. i was bottom third of the B-team when i started, but was top third of the B-team after just two months (we had regular internal tournaments)).
edit: while i've made comparisons to classical musicians in the past, the problem is that classical musicians are not discovering things and doing new things as much. they aren't in a race with other musicians to figure out something new and then play it better than everyone else. for the most part, musicians are doing things that have already been done. it's like they've got someone else doing research and development, while they just build the thing.
but bw was a constant race to discover something new and then practice it up and perfect it enough for it to compete with things that were already heavily refined and perfected and also heavily practiced by everyone else. if you were predictable without being absolute S-tier in execution, then you lost. i'm not so sure that strategies would have evolved as much as they did without the hours these team houses were pouring into the game. so in that sense, bw practice has been both the research and development of the product AND the actual building of the product simultaneously. thus the ungodly hours
if you were being fed novel strategies and only had to master the execution of them, then i think less practice would be ideal. and indeed that's probably how players with less practice thrived: they'd pick up other peoples strats and execute them better or they had a knack for knowing what strats had potential and also had very good execution. jaedong's story about nada's practice with julyzerg confirms that theory to me imo: nada had a strat in mind, tried it for 4 games against july as a proof of concept, decided it was a good bet and that was that. i also did this (obviously at a much lower level than nada), as i'd come up with a strat / build order / game plan and essentially never practice it against real opponents, only vs the AI. then i'd play normal games so my general mechanics were still competitive or superior to my competition. i did this for strats that won maps vs idra and mondragon
Oh wow, that's incredible insight from Nony, I didn't expect he'd post in here! I can't think of anyone more qualified other than Idra, considering they were the only two foreigners to have actually experienced living in a teamhouse during the "modern" Brood War era.
Okay, I'm done being a lurker pretending to know my Brood War history. Just wanted to highlight how sick reading his recount was, over a decade after the fact!
On April 06 2021 04:29 NonY wrote: but for team camaraderie, i couldn't be an exception, so i had to do the same schedule as everyone else (in fact, it was just the highest skill players who got exceptions or extra privilege, especially being A-team was a big status change over B-team.
i mildly curious about this but in any case thanks for sharing your experience!
i would always wonder how they would stay so strong in there tournament play, definetely what he said the team houses and Lan time practice, and playing against good players
EPT
![[image loading]](https://image5jvqbd.fmkorea.com/files/attach/new/20201130/2978469841/2980820443/3231340066/39f3afca4463ceae28032e84a14d1a5b.jpeg)
Jaedong
![[image loading]](https://res.cloudinary.com/teepublic/image/private/s--96WpgOxl--/t_Resized%20Artwork/c_fit,g_north_west,h_1054,w_1054/co_ffffff,e_outline:53/co_ffffff,e_outline:inner_fill:53/co_bbbbbb,e_outline:3:1000/c_mpad,g_center,h_1260,w_1260/b_rgb:eeeeee/c_limit,f_auto,h_630,q_90,w_630/v1540474031/production/designs/3386102_1.jpg)
