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On March 18 2021 18:26 M3t4PhYzX wrote:
"To be honest I would rather watch some great foreigners play than this, if this is how it will look like. Foreigners definitely need the money and the spotlight more than koreans do..
anyways, thanks for organizing the event and keep up the amazing work, Ox.
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ this
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Did I miss an announcement about a long string of pro-gamer events organized by us? ^^ Just kidding, of course.
This event and the one before it was sponsored by Trovo to raise awareness around their platform among different regions of the world interested in BW related content. They wanted a foreign one and a pro-gamer one. Hence Dandy vs Dewalt and Best vs Light.
My own personal goal was to use these events as an opportunity to expose the potential of this Trovo 'plug' with as many qualified and interested people as possible in order to help pave the way for more BW related content on Trovo. I think there are foreign organizers, casters and players who could potentially make it into their paid streamer program. Trovo is already speaking to several of them as a result of our events. Just to be clear, I am not interested in their streamer program nor looking to solidify some sort of foothold with them. Just happy to have them sponsor events for us as long as the opportunities exist and my schedule allows for it. But I don't make all the calls when it comes to the details of the events. So please be aware of that.
As far as supporting the foreign scene goes, I have personally organized 400 showmatches now involving foreigners (both low and high rank) and many of the VODs are uploaded on YT. We have spent nearly $15,000 financially supporting high rank foreign players (as well as semi-pro Koreans) who have won showmatches or games. This is not to mention the amount of time required to manually set up showmatches. They are not like tournament brackets which can be automatically generated using a list of names. Anyone who is a member of our discord will know that I have to personally message people in order to set regular showmatches up.
Moreover, the prize system of our Best of the Best Tour and high profile showmatches (both of which distribute money according to single game wins) are some of the most equitable prize allocation systems I am aware of. So plenty of support there in terms of both money and ways of allocating it more fairly to benefit more people. And of course, this is not to mention the countless of top tier events already in place -- BSL will be hosting three seasons this year I believe, each one with a prize pool of $5000 and the Russian Cyber Games has a prize pool of $10,000 minimum - there have also been other events like BW Jeez Weekly, HaveAtYou, etc. offering foreign players the opportunity to make some cash. Most importantly, e sport fund exists to financially support any new events, so for those out there who are interested, they should consider giving event organizing a shot and count their blessings that an organization exists that can potentially double their prize pool.
So this is all to say folks, that infrequent pro-gamer or foreign events organized by a foreign community oriented platform which does everything for free with very little human resource or monetary support (excluding our wonderful sponsor esportfund and Trovo) deserves a 'pass'.
The event last night was dedicated to the foreign Brood War community and its children: Bombastic Starleague, Brood War Clan league, Brood War UMS community, BW Jeez Weekly, Brood War Maps. Net, Coach Pupil League, Deathfate Pro League, Engineering Bay, HaveAtYou, Rogues Gallery, Rookie Star League, Russian Cyber Games, Shinhan Tank Proleague, Staredit Network, Titanes del Ring, TL.net and many others.
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United States43616 Posts
On March 19 2021 02:28 Sva3 wrote:
I really wanted to watch this event, I was even going to make an account on Trovo. Unfortunately while I was watching them get the games set up I was hit with such a ridiculous amount of disorganization, disrespect for the players, and EGO that I could not keep the stream open after the first game.
First they didn't even have a map pool figured out, and deferred to the players to just figure it out. The lack of communication, and prep felt disrespected to Best and Light imo.
Then the conversation of who would observe and host was discussed. The obvious choice was to have Steve host/observe to avoid unplayable lag, and broadcast to discord or some other means to be rebroadcast to trovo. When this was suggested somebody said "Over my dead body" choosing to instead observe from outside of Korea. The games were incredibly laggy, and you could tell from the FPV how frustrating this was for the players. I find this to be incredibly rude and disrespectful that this observers EGO got in the way of a solid showmatch. Not only were the games laggy, but the games were bad as Light and Best cheesed each game. Presumably to put themselves out of their misery of playing in such a shit environment.
You watched a different series to me.
Game 1 wasn't a cheese game, Light's rax at nat into bunker rush was a completely standard response to a first scouted 12 nex. That's 100% normal. Zero cheese involved.
Game 2 Light scanned a carrier build and hit it with a timing push, exactly as he's meant to do. Zero cheese involved.
Game 3 was a solid macro game. Zero cheese involved.
Game 4 Light picked up an early good kill with a vulture and then capitalized upon it with a tank timing before Best's 3 gates could produce enough goons to stabilize the expansion. That's what he was meant to do and he was rewarded with a good number of probe kills. After that he locked his bases down, progressed to 2-1, and executed Best who was reliant on a Light mistake to get back into the game. Zero cheese involved.
Game 5 was another first scouted 12 nex but the new map had some interesting Blue Storm style chokes that Best exploited to defend against Light's rax at natural into bunker rush expand. Again, very standard, the rush distances were just longer than on game 1 and the map layout different. After the failed bunker rush Best was far ahead and able to end it with a reaver. Zero cheese involved.
Game 6 was lulzy, I'll grant, but it's a new map. Light's proxy rax was smart though, Best did the expansion build Light was hoping to punish. It only failed because Best went for a zealot opening, got one in, and killed a bunch of marines. After that Best showed some strong crisis management decisions and held off the cheese attempt.
Game 7 I'm 110% fine with Light going BBS because Best had done 12 nex twice already in the series. If you have that kind of read on your opponent going BBS isn't a hail mary cheese play, it's a punish. You do it to keep your opponent honest, to tell them "hey, don't think you can keep going 12 nex forever, I'm absolutely prepared to go BBS some percentage of games". And Light was right too, Best did go 12 nex. Light's issue with that Best scouted it and that only 2 scvs went with the bunker rush attempt but I agree with Light's decision to 12 nex there.
As for the lag, it's unfortunate but ultimately its a part of the game. When Koreans are playing for a foreign audience they'll experience lag. Nobody enjoys lag but they're professionals and were compensated for playing for the foreign audience.
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Bulgaria750 Posts
Every undertaking has a few kinks here and there. This is understandable. I hope there is more motivation to iron them than what I see in this thread, for the sake of the community aspect of having a... community.
Thank you for your effort! Best of luck in your projects.
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United States43616 Posts
On March 18 2021 20:09 LfunkGG wrote:
it was nice but cast was cringy most of the time which I find oddly entertaining, there was an awkward dynamic between casters. I'd try to fix audio quality issues next time, good job
Unfortunately I had to change from casting at my desktop with my usual headset to casting from my laptop with a bluetooth mic and a baby sleeping on my shoulder. It wasn't planned that way and the baby was sleeping when the cast started but he woke up and needed to be held. We aspire to professionalism but none of us are professionals, this is a passion project that we have to juggle with our other life commitments.
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I haven't watched this event yet, but I'm quite anxious to do so. As for me, I am quite grateful for any BW content I receive. It's free, no one wants anything from me, I can't find grounds to complain and to display that most universal of our flaws - ungratefulness. So I'm just going to patiently wait for the vod and I'm going to watch it with pleasure.
I think it's so weird that we the BW people are spoiled to such an extent that we whine over free games between some of the best players. I also happened to see the Afreeca SL losing English cast thread. I was ashamed while reading most responses. It's Afreeca's league, they can do whatever they want with it. If they close it - fine, it was fun while it lasted. If it has no English cast - still fine, at least we'll see the games free. And for this event: lag or no lag - I don't think it hurts to show appreciation. And if you don't feel like doing so, the least you could do is keep silent.
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Here's the VOD for anyone interested
Thanks IntoTheStorm <3
Kwark I love you man, thanks for hanging out with us last night. It was "really special" as Steve noted. Shortcomings were all mine of course.
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It was nice to see such an event occurring and kudos to those that were there to make it happen.
However, it was disappointing that the players had to play in sub-optimal conditions (TR24 extra high) in the presence of a foreign observer when there was a simple solution that would have sufficed in this situation. A little extra planning and a small compromise on the organizer's end would have allowed the players to play in their normal conditions.
Whether or not the Koreans are professional or compensated or playing for a foreign audience is largely besides the point. The level of play was clearly affected. I am happy there were still good games in spite of the lag, but there is definitely room for improvement, and the fact that the individuals involved disagree is disappointing.
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On March 19 2021 08:55 FragKrag wrote:
It was nice to see such an event occurring and kudos to those that were there to make it happen.
However, it was disappointing that the players had to play in sub-optimal conditions (TR24 extra high) in the presence of a foreign observer when there was a simple solution that would have sufficed in this situation. A little extra planning and a small compromise on the organizer's end would have allowed the players to play in their normal conditions.
Whether or not the Koreans are professional or compensated or playing for a foreign audience is largely besides the point. The level of play was clearly affected. I am happy there were still good games in spite of the lag, but there is definitely room for improvement, and the fact that the individuals involved disagree is disappointing.
I definitely don't mean to come off as a negative Nancy as some other posters in this thread, I want to make it clear that I do appreciate the hard work put in by the organizer in order to set up this event. I know that it is difficult, and made even more difficult with international/professional players in the mix due to the language barrier and other issues.
However, the players should always come first, because the game always has to come first. When you put the games first, the viewers benefit by extension. Organizers and administrators second. Could have even been recorded and casted from VOD or replay, for example. Plenty of big online tournaments do that in other games and still get really high viewership and positive feedback. Just a thought for next time, if there can be no compromise reached as far as stream/re-stream/local obs and all that 
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On March 19 2021 06:16 IntoTheStorm wrote:
I haven't watched this event yet, but I'm quite anxious to do so. As for me, I am quite grateful for any BW content I receive. It's free, no one wants anything from me, I can't find grounds to complain and to display that most universal of our flaws - ungratefulness. So I'm just going to patiently wait for the vod and I'm going to watch it with pleasure.
I think it's so weird that we the BW people are spoiled to such an extent that we whine over free games between some of the best players. I also happened to see the Afreeca SL losing English cast thread. I was ashamed while reading most responses. It's Afreeca's league, they can do whatever they want with it. If they close it - fine, it was fun while it lasted. If it has no English cast - still fine, at least we'll see the games free. And for this event: lag or no lag - I don't think it hurts to show appreciation. And if you don't feel like doing so, the least you could do is keep silent.
This is the wrong take.
As a viewer, you are both the consumer and the product for the organizer.
A viewer consumes the matches that the organizer puts on, and generally speaking, the better quality of the content the more likely a given viewer will join in. Just because it is free to you doesn't mean that it couldn't be better.
The viewer is also the product that is being sold. This is the part you are missing. Afreeca and other leagues don't just get to do whatever they want because they are selling your viewership as product. That is why Trovo wanted these matches in the first place, to get to you.
To glibly state that viewers shouldn't complain about free content is ignorance of your relationship to the organizer and the parties the organizer is selling to.
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There are plenty of Korean events where you can watch pro-gamers compete under latency-free conditions. This was a foreign organized pro-gamer event featuring a foreign observer and casters. The players agreed to participate and were compensated accordingly for their wins for less than two hours of game-time. There were no complaints from them afterwards (and they even shared their personal contact information) and we were happy with how the event turned out, as was the sponsor. If it is to be repeated again, I will be observing again. You can watch it knowing that, or simply not. If you or anyone else, who has serious issues with pro-gamers playing under less than ideal latency conditions, would like to try to organize your own foreign organized pro-gamer event with a Korean observer, you are welcome to do so. I don't believe it has ever been done so it may be something worth doing, for the greater good of the game (!) Let those who make such arguments be the first to present themselves as examples.
As for me, I am only interested in spending my own precious time (as an academic) on a leisure activity if it fulfills my own self interests in some ways, and well, observing happens to be one of those things that incentivizes me as an organizer of BW content.
Lastly, Trovo does not allow account sharing, so it is not possible for another person to observe and stream under my account. They could make another account to observe and stream from, but then there is no point in my (Team Think Quick's) involvement. They can simply try to organize such an event on their own, on their own time and resources.
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On March 19 2021 13:12 TeamThinkQuick wrote:
There are plenty of Korean events where you can watch pro-gamers compete under latency-free conditions. This was a foreign organized pro-gamer event featuring a foreign observer and casters. The players agreed to participate and were compensated accordingly for their wins for less than two hours of game-time. There were no complaints from them afterwards (and they even shared their personal contact information) and we were happy with how the event turned out, as was the sponsor. If it is to be repeated again, I will be observing again. You can watch it knowing that, or simply not. If you or anyone else, who has serious issues with pro-gamers playing under less than ideal latency conditions, would like to try to organize your own foreign organized pro-gamer event with a Korean observer, you are welcome to do so. I don't believe it has ever been done so it may be something worth doing, for the greater good of the game (!) Let those who make such arguments be the first to present themselves as examples.
As for me, I am only interested in spending my own precious time (as an academic) on a leisure activity if it fulfills my own self interests in some ways, and well, observing happens to be one of those things that incentivizes me as an organizer of BW content.
Lastly, Trovo does not allow account sharing, so it is not possible for another person to observe and stream under my account. They could make another account to observe and stream from, but then there is no point in my (Team Think Quick's) involvement. They can simply try to organize such an event on their own, on their own time and resources.
+1
Just to entertain this idea that people have been mentioning... what is this "simple solution for lag", given these non-negotiable requirements?
1. NA observer (i.e. Team Think Quick is the observer/host)
2. Live games
If there is a simple way to satisfy the above 2 requirements AND have low lag, then I'd be down to help make it happen.
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I didn't read all the comments and i want to say something about lag issue. Find a person who lives in west coast(like California) or hire a person to do the observer for the streamer. I figured AfreecaTV sends out cleanfeed(only screen+sound) to ENG, ESP casters when they are doing ASL S10 commentary(so they don't get mixed up with Korean commentary)
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I also watched Yabsab vs Ample, it is absolutely terrible to play on TR14 for sure.
I get that your account cannot be shared with anyone. I'm just leaving a solution comment for your future plans.
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Guys I understand a little bit that lag sucks. I don't play the game anymore so I cannot truly sympathize with players or viewers/fans who are much more informed than I am about the impact of high latency on gameplay. And yeah it's too bad that I am in eastern Canada now and no longer in California or the western part of this country. But all foreigners are used to higher than normal latency and don't complain about it as much and the players from the last event welcomed another showmatch in the future if it does happen again so there's not much else that I can say. But I do think such foreign organized showmatches with Korean observers can easily be arranged by others if they wish to make it happen.
Thanks everyone for their interest and of course, I appreciate the fact that underlying many of these criticisms lies a positive principle -- genuine passion for the game and respect for the top players.
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On March 20 2021 02:12 ox.tQ wrote:
Guys I understand a little bit that lag sucks. I don't play the game anymore so I cannot truly sympathize with players or viewers/fans who are much more informed than I am about the impact of high latency on gameplay. And yeah it's too bad that I am in eastern Canada now and no longer in California or the western part of this country. But all foreigners are used to higher than normal latency and don't complain about it as much and the players from the last event welcomed another showmatch in the future if it does happen again so there's not much else that I can say. But I do think such foreign organized showmatches with Korean observers can easily be arranged by others if they wish to make it happen.
Thanks everyone for their interest and of course, I appreciate the fact that underlying many of these criticisms lies a positive principle -- genuine passion for the game and respect for the top players.
Imagine organizing a basketball event with professional nba players but telling them they have to play on a 9 foot rim instead of 10. "Lot's of people play on it and don't complain so deal with it" is basically what you are saying.
I think we all want good games, a good event, and to respect the players. I personally felt like this was 100% about ego to be the observer in a game with pro players. That's just from listening to the words from the observer during the cast. It felt very disrespectful that EGO was more important than the players/games.
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You made an account on TL just to rage about this? You cannot account share on Trovo. It was not possible for someone else to use my account which was advertised to observe and stream the games from.
I have already mentioned the organizer (me) is not interested in content production unless he is observing and streaming the live (and/or preplayed) games. Deal with it or complain about it ad nauseam to your therapist. I am sure she/he will be impressed by your moral superiority.
Here's some really good advice: lots of hills in life, try not to don't die on each one, save your emotions for more important things, you will need them!
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On March 20 2021 06:12 ox.tQ wrote:
You made an account on TL just to rage about this? You cannot account share on Trovo. It was not possible for someone else to use my account which was advertised to observe and stream the games from.
I have already mentioned the organizer (me) is not interested in content production unless he is observing and streaming the live (and/or preplayed) games. Deal with it or complain about it ad nauseam to your therapist. I am sure she/he will be impressed by your moral superiority.
Here's some really good advice: lots of hills in life, try not to don't die on each one, save your emotions for more important things, you will need them!
Actually my original account on TL was made in 2010 "Sva" but I lost access to it. Feel free to look it up.
Here's some good advice, when dealing with professionals you should check your ego at the door. Maybe saying something like "Over my dead body" when it comes to observing on stream isn't a smart look.
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So you made an account in 2010 and your most recent posts in however many years have been about a disappointing StarCraft stream event. Impressive.
Generally speaking, I think it’s good to be aware that the content/efforts of others do not have to conform to one’s own personal preferences/opinions. The outside world does not have to bend to one’s expectations, nor does it exist for my own self indulgence. It must be mentally exhausting to incessantly cast judgement on everything and feel the urge to offer one's (unsolicited) advice.
FragKrag, I am sorry to disappoint you as well. I am sure I can take a page or two out of your accomplished book.
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On March 20 2021 07:27 ox.tQ wrote:
So you made an account in 2010 and your most recent posts in however many years have been about a disappointing StarCraft stream event. Impressive.
Generally speaking, I think it’s good to be aware that the content/efforts of others do not have to conform to one’s own personal preferences/opinions. The outside world does not have to bend to one’s expectations, nor does it exist for my own self indulgence. It must be mentally exhausting to incessantly cast judgement on everything and feel the urge to offer one's (unsolicited) advice.
FragKrag, I am sorry to disappoint you as well. I am sure I can take a page or two out of your accomplished book.
Here is this better, now I have more posts than you do? Does this make me valid now? lmao so ridiculous.
I'm glad you are making events, and that's awesome. I just wish you put the players before yourself, that's all. Maybe try and understand some cultural aspects of Korea as well. I don't know that the players would ever complain to the person hosting the event, because that is just not culturally normal in Korea.
Anyways, best of luck on future events. I hope you can work out how to put the players ahead of your own ego. <3
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EPT
