• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 21:12
CEST 03:12
KST 10:12
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy6Code S RO8 Preview: herO, Zoun, Bunny, Classic7
Community News
Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form?6FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event13Esports World Cup 2025 - Final Player Roster14Weekly Cups (June 16-22): Clem strikes back1Weekly Cups (June 9-15): herO doubles on GSL week4
StarCraft 2
General
The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form? How does the number of casters affect your enjoyment of esports? Esports World Cup 2025 - Final Player Roster HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview
Tourneys
HomeStory Cup 27 (June 27-29) WardiTV Mondays SOOPer7s Showmatches 2025 FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event $200 Biweekly - StarCraft Evolution League #1
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers [G] Darkgrid Layout
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome Mutation # 478 Instant Karma Mutation # 477 Slow and Steady
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion StarCraft & BroodWar Campaign Speedrun Quest ASL20 Preliminary Maps Unit and Spell Similarities
Tourneys
[BSL20] GosuLeague RO16 - Tue & Wed 20:00+CET The Casual Games of the Week Thread [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] ProLeague LB Final - Saturday 20:00 CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile What do you want from future RTS games? Beyond All Reason
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Trading/Investing Thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Blog #2
tankgirl
Game Sound vs. Music: The Im…
TrAiDoS
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 575 users

Tiny tweaks. Would you be in favor?

Forum Index > BW General
Post a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next All
subanchoide
Profile Joined October 2020
56 Posts
November 21 2020 20:56 GMT
#1
There's a lot of history about making new balance patches to BW on the last 10-15 years. If I'm not mistaken, the last patch applying changes was 1.08 almost 20 years ago. Since then, people have talked about new changes, most of the time failing and suggesting things that are completely non-sense.

Now, I won't explain what I would do to balance the game since the game is perfectly balance as it is and it is the most cliche post on TL, Reddit or any forum regarding BW. There's a lot of posts saying "THIS IS WHAT I WOULD DO TO FIX THE GAME" and 99% of the times is D rank players trying to obliterate things they lose to.

What I'm talking about is, and here's where I need you opinion...

Would you be in favor of tweaking some units to make the game even more dense?

I'm talking about changing the Scout from 8 ground attack to 9-10 and test how it affects the game for months. Or maybe making tiny changes to the Devourer to see if it fits any strategy.

It seems like 2-3 units are not fitting the meta for the past 20 years, so there's a small part of the game that basically doesn't get into account.

Thanks in advance, and don't worry about it, I understand I'll get a lot of "Do not touch BW" and "The game is perfect as it is". I know I'm entering sacred lands.
HaruHaru
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States988 Posts
November 21 2020 21:15 GMT
#2
Yea I would be in favor of maybe tweaking scouts a bit or maybe disruption web / queens
Long live BroodWar!
QOGQOG
Profile Joined July 2019
834 Posts
November 21 2020 21:15 GMT
#3
I wouldn't be opposed to some tweaks in theory, but I don't trust Blizzard to do them.
subanchoide
Profile Joined October 2020
56 Posts
November 21 2020 21:25 GMT
#4
On November 22 2020 06:15 QOGQOG wrote:
I wouldn't be opposed to some tweaks in theory, but I don't trust Blizzard to do them.


Yeah, that's my first thought hahaha.

I fairly see them touching a lot of stuff on a single patch, and demolishing a balance that lasted 20 years.
subanchoide
Profile Joined October 2020
56 Posts
November 21 2020 21:28 GMT
#5
On November 22 2020 06:15 HaruHaru wrote:
Yea I would be in favor of maybe tweaking scouts a bit or maybe disruption web / queens


In what sense?
Essbee
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Canada2371 Posts
November 21 2020 21:44 GMT
#6
No.
kidcrash
Profile Joined September 2009
United States620 Posts
November 21 2020 21:44 GMT
#7
Nukes > 2 supply
Scouts > -25 mineral -25 gas
Devourers > idk +25 HP? Not sure

Overall the game is fine as is but if someone had a gun to my head, these would be the most reasonable changes.
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10125 Posts
November 21 2020 21:45 GMT
#8
While some units may not be "meta" that doesn't mean they don't see use in other game modes. Better to leave things as they are not just because of the impact on the competitive scene but also on the intangible and hard to calculate/adapt cases like BGH 3v3, Blizz map FFA, etc.

Simply, why risk ruining something just to see Scouts used more often or something? Is that really something that we need? We have players on these forums who argue for making Guardians stronger simply because they are their favorite units, that's really what it boils down to and it's pure nonsense.
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
subanchoide
Profile Joined October 2020
56 Posts
November 21 2020 22:08 GMT
#9
On November 22 2020 06:44 Essbee wrote:
No.


6th post. I'm proud of it haha.
oxKnu
Profile Joined December 2017
1179 Posts
November 21 2020 22:11 GMT
#10
Minor tweaks would be fine, however we would need the Korean pro scene to vet them and they don't seem to be interested in any kind of gameplay changes. (maybe they have a different opinion on that after 3-4 years since everybody came back to BW).

The meta definitely needs a shake-up after all this time: 10+ years with limited drastic changes to pro play.

Ollin
Profile Joined December 2017
Poland77 Posts
November 21 2020 22:22 GMT
#11
Here we go again...
iRk-Ollin
subanchoide
Profile Joined October 2020
56 Posts
November 21 2020 22:29 GMT
#12
On November 22 2020 06:45 Jealous wrote:
While some units may not be "meta" that doesn't mean they don't see use in other game modes. Better to leave things as they are not just because of the impact on the competitive scene but also on the intangible and hard to calculate/adapt cases like BGH 3v3, Blizz map FFA, etc.

Simply, why risk ruining something just to see Scouts used more often or something? Is that really something that we need? We have players on these forums who argue for making Guardians stronger simply because they are their favorite units, that's really what it boils down to and it's pure nonsense.


Well, I think making +1 ground attack for example on Scouts would be that problematic in games like BGH or any other map.

Also I don't think it would ruin the game. Ruining the game would be making vultures only carry one spidermine or stupid stuff that people suggest all the time. Making a tiny change can't kill the balance, and also you can tweak that back since you know what is the "natural" state of the game.

Plus, it is not about "Oh I want to see Scouts used more" as a personal desire or anything related. It's more about how can you expand the vast strategy of the game. Someone could say that the change is just to remove Scouts from the game, since they have not a single use more than trolling your opponent. What I mean is maybe is worth a try to lift those units a little bit and see if they have any potential. Let's say we see Scouts or Devourers appear on +2% of the games, since they are more viable at some point of the game. Well, as a player, you should expect that kind of unit composition on those 2% of games and try to adapt to it. You're expanding the viable strategies but also the way players react to those possibilities.

I think what really "bothers" me is that the game has a tiny percentage of units/abilities that were almost anecdotical for decades, and they seem more like a waste of "space" for strategy that could be expanded via, as I said, tiny, minor changes.

On one side I think, well, why change something that worked fine for the past 20 years? On the other side, I think it's like tweaking something people think it's perfect (cause it is in some kind of sense), to make it even better, which is a statement that I think people don't even consider. I'm looking for people like you, thinking about the possibilty and expressing their opinion, not cultists.
subanchoide
Profile Joined October 2020
56 Posts
November 21 2020 22:32 GMT
#13
On November 22 2020 07:11 oxKnu wrote:
Minor tweaks would be fine, however we would need the Korean pro scene to vet them and they don't seem to be interested in any kind of gameplay changes. (maybe they have a different opinion on that after 3-4 years since everybody came back to BW).

The meta definitely needs a shake-up after all this time: 10+ years with limited drastic changes to pro play.



Well I think the meta still changes from time to time. I loved some of the strategies of the past ASLs and I cannot discard the fact that maybe someday any of the matchups will change somehow.

I mean, yeah, I perceive some kind of stagnation, but meta changes are extremely slow and hard to point out.

I won't suggest changing the balance of the game to find new metas or make it more "fun". I think that would be a disaster.
subanchoide
Profile Joined October 2020
56 Posts
November 21 2020 22:33 GMT
#14
On November 22 2020 07:22 Ollin wrote:
Here we go again...


Again, not looking for absurd changes or people suggesting things like that. I'm just asking, do you think the game could be improved by tiny changes? Just that.
Essbee
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Canada2371 Posts
November 21 2020 22:48 GMT
#15
On November 22 2020 07:11 oxKnu wrote:
Minor tweaks would be fine, however we would need the Korean pro scene to vet them and they don't seem to be interested in any kind of gameplay changes. (maybe they have a different opinion on that after 3-4 years since everybody came back to BW).

The meta definitely needs a shake-up after all this time: 10+ years with limited drastic changes to pro play.



The TvZ pro meta changes often.
TT1
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada10004 Posts
November 22 2020 00:03 GMT
#16
Imo they should turn reavers into a hybrid flyer/ground unit, like vikings in sc2. That way P can harass without a shuttle, you'd have great anti air splash damage and you could land them wherever you want for ground harass. You could also add a speed upgrade for them but that might be too OP... it's worth exploring tho.
ab = tl(i) + tl(pc), the grand answer to every tl.net debate
subanchoide
Profile Joined October 2020
56 Posts
November 22 2020 00:07 GMT
#17
On November 22 2020 09:03 TT1 wrote:
Imo they should turn reavers into a hybrid flyer/ground unit, like vikings in sc2. That way P can harass without a shuttle, you'd have great anti air splash damage and you could land them wherever you want for ground harass. You could also add a speed upgrade for them but that might be too OP... it's worth exploring tho.


For one moment I thought you were serious about it.
TT1
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada10004 Posts
November 22 2020 00:09 GMT
#18
On November 22 2020 09:07 subanchoide wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 22 2020 09:03 TT1 wrote:
Imo they should turn reavers into a hybrid flyer/ground unit, like vikings in sc2. That way P can harass without a shuttle, you'd have great anti air splash damage and you could land them wherever you want for ground harass. You could also add a speed upgrade for them but that might be too OP... it's worth exploring tho.


For one moment I thought you were serious about it.


im being serious.. there's too much rng with scarabs, reavers need more utility
ab = tl(i) + tl(pc), the grand answer to every tl.net debate
WGT-Baal
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
France3352 Posts
November 22 2020 00:12 GMT
#19
A 2v2 ladder as promised!
Server tweaks (merge west and east, allow easy crossserver friendlist)
For the game itself not really. Too risky. You can play with ums.
Horang2 fan
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25007 Posts
November 22 2020 00:27 GMT
#20
Not scouts as I can’t really see an actual niche for them that opens up strategic variety if they’re balanced to be a stronger unit. You’d have to overbuff them to the degree they would replace say, sairs in PvZ, and the game is more interesting with sairs and their strengths and drawbacks than the boring old scout.

If anything it’s kind of neat a unit is so relatively bad that it has a unique niche as a troll unit.

In general terms, sure tweak things IMO. Not sure what I would tweak but just not against it in principle.

'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Replay Cast
00:00
DH Dallas | TheStC Showmatch
CranKy Ducklings207
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
PiGStarcraft589
StarCraft: Brood War
Icarus 2
Dota 2
monkeys_forever376
Counter-Strike
summit1g10110
taco 627
Other Games
shahzam861
FrodaN720
Artosis455
JimRising 444
Day[9].tv305
Maynarde163
Pyrionflax147
Mew2King56
RuFF_SC29
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1830
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 75
• Mapu9
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• Ler43
League of Legends
• masondota2757
• Stunt323
Other Games
• Day9tv305
Upcoming Events
Wardi Open
9h 48m
PiGosaur Monday
22h 48m
The PondCast
1d 8h
Replay Cast
1d 22h
RSL Revival
2 days
WardiTV European League
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
RSL Revival
3 days
WardiTV European League
3 days
FEL
3 days
[ Show More ]
Korean StarCraft League
4 days
CranKy Ducklings
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
FEL
4 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
RSL Revival
5 days
FEL
5 days
BSL: ProLeague
5 days
Dewalt vs Bonyth
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-06-28
HSC XXVII
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
Acropolis #3
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Championship of Russia 2025
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.