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Thanks for all the positive feedback,
It worked for me, but I'm really not sure how it will work out for you guys.
@ Zulu
This exercise is not for the players who are already good at the game. Rather, it is an exercise that promotes speed while attempting to maintain macro. You are at first, over exaggerating and pushing yourself, therefore being "artificial" in one aspect, but just like everything else in the world, you have to push yourself in order to get better. The purpose is first to gain speed and trust me, a person will do the most useless things in the game to maintain their apm that high. Yet once a person is naturally adapted to maintaining that apm, their actions will become more useful and actually have a purpose as you continue to play the game.
Put it in this viewpoint. Some players aren't good enough to maintain their macro even when they are not being pressured. Again, this exercise isn't for players like Nony or Ret. I am simply putting out an exercise that worked for me and I am sharing this idea to others to see how well they fare.
@besiger.cry
Try playing against 2 computers or drag out the game purposely. The first few times you try to do this. It'll be hard just to meet the requirements. It'll be one hectic game. I'm sure everyone here can beat a computer, but I suppose only experience tells. Beating a computer while trying to maintain these conditions is a difficult task in itself.
@kNyTTyM
Thats why its hard ;p
Instead of focusing on winning the game. Focus on meeting the requirements.
Once you can comfortably meet them, the next step is winning. But first priority should be to meet the standards. It is quite a daunting task from my memories ><
@ KrAzYfoOL
Please read my post before you say things like that. I gave plenty of reasons why you should play computers at first. If you have a friend who will play against you and understands what you are trying to accomplish, it would be even better. Yet I personally did not have that friend who was willing to invest that much time to making me better.
Thanks for all the feedback  I'm glad alot of you are trying it out. If it doesn't help you at all, feel free to yell at me for wasting alot of your time TT
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Who wrote this post ?
"seriously most people that have replied fuck off please. I know Incontrol and his 140 apm zerg is 100x better than my 200 apm terran and I know that kouros[fou]'s 170 apm tvz is probably semi pro while mine is pgt C-. They can do more with lower apm because they have more experience and are more clear headed when they play, every moment they know what they have to do and how to react so they don't freak out and start spamming. To get to Kouros's 170 apm tvz level you probably need to have played millions of games at 170 apm beforehand to get to that stage of zen. For some people like me that is more unrealistic than say bashing my keyboard for 3 months until I get to 250 apm and hopefully with the same or little improved knowledge but much better mechanics, I can win players that I couldn't win before. And that is my goal. I've played a lot of tvz games recently where the opponent sucked but had 300 apm so they outmacroed me and I couldn't attack micro macro as fast and thus lost. I don't wanna see that happen ever again, I don't ever wanna get "outpaced" in a starcraft game. And if to that your advice is "learn better builds", "use dropship more often", "outsmart him", then you can gtfo this thread and hang yourself please. I asked a simple question, and want a simple answer, and people come in with their mighty wisdom and lecture me on how apm isn't important and how I should learn to improve other areas. just fuck off please, post some replays for comments and ask questions in the strategy thread for 2 months and I'll spam for 2 months let's see who's improved more after."
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omg i did, a rash and youthful me. Luckily I did achieve that state of zen. I was so frustrated at what I thought were slow hands but in truth slow mind. My apm has probably been the same since I made that post but my everything else has improved leaps and bounds. I would probably attribute it to meeting nal_crayon's world wonder 150 apm tvz. If you ever feel like your hands are too slow bother him on west to ob a game. My advice now to the me of then would be to try to play faster but throw away bwchart because you can always do more with the apm you have.
and btw, incontrol's zerg is not 140 apm, it's 1400 apm
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For those asking about which program to use, just patch back to 1.14 and use penguin. its the same to you because u play vs computer and dont need to go online.
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seems like work and terribly boring...pretty much what sc has become for me.
OK so you learned to spend minerals well and be fast...key skills.
No idea what you actually learned about the game though.
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I've never been able to defend myself when people saw my high apm while they had lower and won. Then later on down the line I was beating them but thats another story. The point is people always bash apm as useless. Well here is the thread telling you all(apm bashers) in simple words so that you may understand why its good. So here's my fast story.
+ Show Spoiler +A good gamer always makes the right decisions. APM will not make you better at that, playing the game will. What APM will do is make your mouse faster, your precision better. Those two together make for uber-micro. Those two together makes for uber-macro, go back home grab four probes make them move to pylon area, go back to micro, when probes reach pylon area go back put down 4 gateways, go back to micro then back to probes for 4 more gateways(thats 8 now) all this within 4-5 seconds that you were microing in. Thats why I like to play fast. (I rambled at the end of this one IMO. sorry.
+ Show Spoiler +2005 I saw blizzcon(Seen Reach). Downloaded starcraft via Torrents. Found Korean Progaming. Thought I could be pro if I was 300+ apm. So in that I became 300+ apm. I wasn't playing like a pro!? I did not give up, friends said you spam, friends said your apm is uselsss, friends said your apm is not apm, friends said apm is useless clicks and spam. Guess what! Months later my apm now owns. Never give up and you will learn the ways of the game the same way everyone else does, through playing, except you will be faster. It will become simple to play like this, and you will do more back(micro/macro) and forth(micro/macro) style of play. When you see stupid stuff that makes apm look bad, or a fucked up psi. Thats just bad memory not apm's fault. lol^^
For those who think people with high apm forget because they have too much shit going on. They just don't know what fast play is like. We've been slow and didn't like it. So we moved up a few notches. ^^
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
can't we just accept this as another alternate way to attempt getting better at the game that may work for some but not for others, and move on?
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On July 10 2007 11:36 Knickknack wrote:
seems like work and terribly boring...pretty much what sc has become for me.
OK so you learned to spend minerals well and be fast...key skills.
No idea what you actually learned about the game though.
Well thats the point of the exercise o.O
Simply for macro and speed for those who need to improve upon it.
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I personally believe that apm is important to the game. I believe that 300+ is over kill. Around 170-250 seems about a good apm. A high apm does not necessarily mean that you are good. It simply means that you are able to quickly shift between macro and micro screens, a necessary feat in higher levels of starcraft. For nothing beats experience, but IMHO, I believe APM and speed does help a player.
I am not saying that APM determines the player. I simply put out an exercise that worked and helped me. If you feel the need to dismiss it, then feel free to do so.
^^
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Canada7170 Posts
I just tried this.
I didn't find it that difficult to keep a high apm, but since I was playing a computer (i.e. almost no pressure except right at the beginning sometimes) I found it difficult to spend my minerals once I was 200/200. Granted, I could have tried to overrun by then, but I felt like taking 5 expansions just to see if I could keep up.
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I think it's an option worth a try for everyone who's willing to devote their time to such a method.
Small story. Two friends watched me playing a clanwar, both knew the game, played it themself and they saw a few progames with me. Now, the first thing one of my friends said when he watched me was: "This looks like work...".
Sure you can drill yourself until it's second nature. But i for myself allways remember the old "im young and i have time"-times where you just played the game, relaxed and eventually got better.
It surely is a way, and i may give it a try sometimes, but i still believe that small and exponential steps will offer you greater success later on. Cause it can be hard to stop bad habits -> spam for instance.
In terms of macro management, efficiency should be the only goal. How you reach that target is of course up to yourself.
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i rather have the speed and work on my knowledge then have the knowledge and don't have the speed to put it in practice.
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MyLostTemple
United States2921 Posts
i like everything but the '300 apm' part. I worry this would encourage a player to spend WAY more time spamming just to keep the apm up and less time focusing on the best next moves. In my opinion you should keep the exercise but focus on keeping apm above 110.
I also think it would be great to do this in slow mode too, practice hand positions etc.
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United States42591 Posts
I too am worried by the 300 apm part. I'd like to challenge BlueIris to a high apm vs low apm showmatch, both because I love my incredibly low apm and because I think the focus on high apm detracts from more valuable training techniques. Up for it?
But it was still a useful topic, thanks for the contribution.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
I think I'm going to try this with my noobie friends. It seems a lot smarter to gain as much as possible from playing those friends since they don't challenge me at all.
I tried this vs. the comp but the highest I got was 229  (my normal active apm is 150-180 with the occasional games above and below)
Hopefully this will work out well in the end
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how do you get apm up to 300 ? about 10th minute into the game i just drop down to 250 and cant keep it higher no matter what i do
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
If you can hit 300 at the beginning, then you have what it takes to keep it 300 throughout the game by maintaining the same action patterns that you had in the beginning (or doing analogous spam)
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It is an interesting idea that I have tried but not to this extreme. In alot of other sports you practice parts of the sport itself so why not in starcraft. However I'm rather satisfied with my 140ish apm and just try to play fast, accurate and effective now.
Other things I do from time to time vs comps is, trying to get to 200supply as fast as possible. Beat the comp with various strats in as short time as possible ect. About as effective as a pubbie hunters game in terms of training I guess. Just different.
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You reached the two conditions in two weeks? That's amazing. You were probably a decent player from the start. I tried some thing similar but I just can't get the mouse to click accurate enough when I go too fast. for example, misplace the supplys or rally the wrong locations.
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EPT
