EPTThe Central Audio Commentary Thread - Page 5
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Seku
United States313 Posts
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Sosha
United States749 Posts
PvsZ is so difficult - there are so few of things u can do to "disrupt" the Z's economy or set him back in any way - July proved that in game 1 and 3. You can't rush, because they outproduce you and are more 'powerful' w/ even just 1 sunken colony, not to mention some Z's make 3 or more at the beginning stages. After a rush fails, like game 3, they will just grab more expansions than you can control and eventually overwhelm Protoss. Drops only play into the more severity that Z is better than P - You can't predict where those drops are coming from. Even if Nal_rA knew about it and had units there, they prolly wouldn't have been enough anyway, but drops can completely bypass any defenses and go straight for the main target. If he would have been split up w/ his units, having them all over his base, anticipating a drop - July would have just massed hydra/ling w/ speed upgrades and just went frontal w/ a few lurker/muta backup and Nal_rA wouldn't have had enough to stop him. Zerg has the perfect counters to what P whats to do - to where it's obsolete. If they tech 1st, Zerg gobbles up expos and defends all too well (2 expos w/ spores, sunks and lurks) to where P can only hold their ground during battles - but with Zerg drops and just the ability to outproduce P whenever they want, it's still a hard battle even out in the open. The mobility of hydralisks, able to pick off obs even in open-battles, again, adds to the superiority of the Z. Either way, rushing or teching, Protoss is in the 'hole' and alrdy has to catch up somehow.. The best example of this is the fact that these are 2 of the best representatives of their race. JulyZerg (Z) and Nal_rA (P). The fact that pro-Zergs can man-handle pro-Protoss's no matter what they do, it doesn't just add to their popularity and superiority but it showcases that any Zerg, if they know what they're doing, can dominate a P unless the P plays just right. | ||
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Klaz
Ireland334 Posts
I know it's a hard to execute strategy but it's so devestating and zerg can do little to counter it once it gets going | ||
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Sr18
Netherlands1141 Posts
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Sosha
United States749 Posts
On June 08 2007 12:20 Klaz wrote: i disagree. Rushes don't generally work unless you take ur oponent by surprise. Ra went for an all in build 3 times in a row while his opponent expanded. He can't expect to win after giving the enemy the economy advantage. IMO the best way to beat zerg as toss is to fast expand, turtle and own them up with sair reaver. Just don't let them grow to big. I know it's a hard to execute strategy but it's so devestating and zerg can do little to counter it once it gets going I know, it's the best way to beat a zerg w/ a rush - is to catch them offguard. However, we're talking about Zerg here. They have overlords. When was the last time that a Zerg has ever been caught off-guard by anything P does? The best way to catch a Z offguard is to proxy-gate rush and we all seen and heard how that was handled by Savior, because Savior saw that Stork was only 1-gate in main, so he tried to pressure him early, and gained a lot of advantages because of that. Stork tried 2-gate proxy, which did somewhat catch him off guard, but against 3-hatch lings, you get out-numbered. I understand where u're coming from w/ ur opinion on the best way for toss to win, but you're a Z players, aren't you? If Protoss fast-expanded in pretty much every-game v Zerg, it would get too 'comfortable' for the Zerg. They would know that there was an 80% chance that the Protoss would fast-expo, so they could 9 pool speed lings or just scout quickly to assure themselves that P is going fast-expo, and just take 2 or more expos. It's a lot of "if, if, if" in this situation, but Rvr/Sair is a hard combination to pull off, both in terms of control and the time it takes to actually be able to use this offensively. Zerg can get masses of units in such a short time, w/ 2 expos or more. They can also use drops, As Savior did well against Anytime @ Desperado and July did against Nal_rA. They're hard to predict and even harder to predict where. They're so devastating in terms that Zerg just drops 20 hydras and 100 lings, clears out the 4-5 cannons that were there (which serve to be no use, as they're only able to kill like 3 units before they're all destroyed - they are simply used to buy time for Protoss units to get there to help) and then the Z units destroy the nexus and goal-accomplished. They either pick the units back up, or just leave the area, having lost almost nothing. Like I said, you can't really tell when or where they're going to happen, and if you just have units spread out or try to focus too much on drop-protection, the Z will find out about this a lot sooner than u'll find out about what he's doing - in which he either do a drop somewhere else, make a full-frontal attack, or just sit back and take map. Reaver/Sair might be the best arsenal Protoss has but the time it takes to actually use it, even v a Zerg that just has his natural - is far too long. By the time u get a force of rvrs - maybe 4 of them w/ 2 shuttles - and 5 or more sairs, the zerg would have dozens of hydras, well placed - scourges for the sairs / shuttles and spores to keep the lords relatively safe. If they see u're taking too long to make an attack w/ rvr's, they'll take more bases. The best way to actualy beat a Z w/ that strat, is to catch a Zerg that's over-exerting himself on expansions and not really protecting them correctly. If a Z just takes 1 expo at a time, w/ hydras to protect while morphing and sunkens to protect after the hatch is complete, you'll find it hard to beat a Z that's gathering so many bases - eventually it won't matter if u take out 1-2 expos or 20-30 hydras, because u can expect ultra/ling/defiler or devourers to completely counter it "best thing for Protoss to do is to quick-expand" - How many times have we seen that not-pay off for Protoss - just as well as it didn't pay off to rush. Zerg either gets 3-4 hatchs and masses hydra or just drops at ur main. Protoss, when fast-expanding, normally puts a lot of focus on front-cannons (if they know they're going hydra). Ok, money well spent? Making 6+ cannons at ur expo's front, then to have 8 overlords drop 36+ units in ur main, where u only had 2-3 cannons and u were just starting to macro - that's the benefit of Zerg getting 2-3 bases w/ 2 gas, they can tech to anything they want really quick - plus their units are dirt cheap. sr18 - I know someone was going to bring up the fact that Bisu continuously beats Savior. It was a big deal - Bisu is great. However, like that person that made the thread talking about how great Savior was, he did the same strat for all 3 games in that MSL final. I suppose it works conversely for the Zerg, as well as the Protoss. If you do the same strategy, your opponent will have an easier time dealing with it, time after time. There were many things that Savior could have done in those games that he didn't. Put Bisu up against Gorush, July and Savior and i'm sure he might beat Savior, but July and Gorush will prolly have something that will catch him offguard and slow him down and eventually cause him to lose. If you think about it, all those games Savior lost, were really easy mistakes to correct. All Savior needed to do in those games was to be more versatile w/ his units, having them spread out throughout the 3 bases. Add those units w/ 1-2 colonies, 1 being a sunk and the other being a spore and he was safe from anything Bisu is known for - Corsair / Dt drop. Savior was underestimating Bisu, thinking he wouldn't do the same thing every game, so in turn, Savior did the same thing every game thinking that 'this' game would be different and this time I'd out-macro him. Seeing Savior play so many other Protoss that try to do the same - yet failing to actually yield a profit and losing to Savior makes me question why he had such a hard time against Bisu anyway. He could have taken the 'easy' way out and just added the July-Defense of 8 sunks at every expo and there's no way a Protoss can beat you. | ||
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Jyvblamo
Canada13788 Posts
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Sr18
Netherlands1141 Posts
From this seasons proleague*: PvsZ 17-23 57.5 win percentage for Z PvsT 28-26 51.8 win percentage for P TvsZ 32-18 64 win percentage for T As you can see, Z only has a small advantage vs P. An advantage that is completely caused by the map Nemesis. If you take out Nemesis, the stats for PvsZ would be 14-13 in favour of P. Also, as you can see, there is far more reason for Zerg to complain about imbalanced Terran than Protoss about Zerg, but we don't see countless threads and posts about that matchup now do we? Finally, I would like to ask you to keep general matchup posts in a different thread. Balance posts attract flames and we do not want those in this thread. Thank you. *Stats taken from: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=51935 | ||
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useLess
United States4781 Posts
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Sosha
United States749 Posts
I didn't say anything about ZvT or PvT either. Everyone trying to point fingers elsewhere to cover up my points. I know PvT is different. I didn't say, jeez Terran owns Protoss too, Protoss just sucks. Reach has been owning every Terran that's been put in front of him. I'm not a Terran or Zerg player either, so I don't have any input on ZvT. I was making a point on PvZ / ZvP. I've played many of them, and seen many of them played. I know what each race does against Protoss to win or to get ahead. Despite PvP, PvT, TvZ, ZvZ etc.. I'm talking about Protoss v Zerg and how seemingly easy it is for Zerg to win that matchup - your stats only merely back up my statements, rather than refute them. 57.5% win ration for ZvP - that's like out of 10 matchs, almost 6 of them will be won by Zerg - that's supposed to back up some kind of theory that Protoss is = against Zerg? As far as ur 'imbalace' about TvZ - I think it's more about two races that can take the game, almost, at any pace they want. Plus the fact that there are almost more Terran users in Korea + the starleagues than Zerg - and perhaps the Terrans are a bit better than most of the Zergs they're playing? If you look at the Terrans, they have so many superstars - Nada, Oov, Flash, Sea, Boxer, Xellos, upmagic etc.. Zerg has how many stars.. that are consistent? Savior... July.. 2? The stats might be stacked against the Zergs in TvZ, but Savior can change all that around - his ZvT is like 20-12.. and excuse me for using this thread - being about BW, on a site about bw, to actually talk about the game, rather than just posting "hey good commentary" over and over and over.. like the other posts here I didn't think I should make whole new threads for particular game discussions - because someone would find something to nag about that. If not one thing, its another =[ | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
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Sr18
Netherlands1141 Posts
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ChoboCop
United States954 Posts
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Zalfor
United States1035 Posts
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Chef
10810 Posts
If I hope real hard, maybe Manifesto and Cygnus will be inspired to make commentaries too. Then all my StarCraft dreams will come true! :D :O Foursome with Tasteless, Klaz, Mani, and Cygnus in one commentary. Damn that'd be hot  | ||
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Klaz
Ireland334 Posts
Boxer vs Ra and Boxer vs Flash are done. Uploaded all but part 3 of boxer vs flash to youtube but for some reason it is still processing all of them. It's very slow today and I have no idea how. Will add the links once they are up. Also want to remind everyone to please mention in the commentary contest thread which of their commentaries they want considered in case some ppl missed that post. | ||
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Klaz
Ireland334 Posts
Boxer vs Flash Pro-league June10 Python | ||
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Zalfor
United States1035 Posts
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humblegar
Norway883 Posts
On June 11 2007 13:35 Klaz wrote: You tube still processing for some reason so uploading to google video Boxer vs Flash Pro-league June10 Python Nice, going to watch it a second time then | ||
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Klaz
Ireland334 Posts
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Klaz
Ireland334 Posts
Boxer vs Nal_ra Proleague June10 Nemesis | ||
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