EPTA.I. is coming to StarCraft Brood War - Page 3
| Forum Index > BW General |
|
Broodwar4lyf
304 Posts
| ||
|
Modesty00
Bulgaria262 Posts
On December 12 2018 12:35 L_Master wrote: Modesty I love you man but I don't think I agree. Have you seen the micro these bots can do? Like just the muta micro alone....a human player would be decimated...decimated utterly by a 2 port wraith or 2 hatch muta with each muta individually microed. Same in battled. There are some vids out there of bot going vs 12 goons with 12 goons and it takes zero losses. Not to mention the multitask. Think Bisu PvZ but unfathomably faster. That's a crazy, crazy advantage. I mean if the bot is dumb as rocks it won't matter...but they will get better. And I'm not sure why all games end 5-13 minutes...the bots will get smarter than the players. Bots will eventually get better there as well. A. I. Mutalisk micro is still terrible. There is a. I. bot called Marian Devechka that does human like mutalisk micro, stacking with overlord which is much improvement of muta micro all other bots do which is horrible separate control. So that micro of the bot is visually looking correct but decision making where to attack, which unit, when to attack, when to retreat, how much to retreat, should I go to enemy base or expansion, what to target there and when to leave, should I attack enemy Marines on center of map or should I wait for regroup or should I protect my natural or my 3rd expo.. Should I be making more muta or lings or lurkers or taking another expo, or placing makro hatch or going for hive... And so on and so on.. All that bot HAS zero to little Idea... All the apm in the world won't save the bot unless opponent does very weak micro or makro or really stupid decision. By the time bot improves on all that which might take 5 years.. Then lowering the apm really won't matter at all bot will be already super human. Now with all that benefit bot is still struggles but is fun to test him and play vs humans. Because you don't need 300 apm or 3000 to be equal to bot. Now if 2 stupid bots play and one has 15 000 apm other has 150, that's unfair. Human vs bot whole goal and idea is to see how "smart" bot is.. don't worry how fast makro micro he does. There is locutus called protoss bot which does fantastic goon micro. It beats every other bot in goon vs goons even if other bot has reavers and wins battle, that locutus has fantastic makro as well and pimps goons from 16 gates, becouse it's faster than other bots taking expo and stuff. But you know what. All that is pointless vs human. A human on 2 bases terran turtles and has 2 000 minerals because is slow and bad on makro while the bot is already on 5 bases and upgrades on with bigger army and close to 200/200.. Teran goes out.. The bot constantly loses couple units while trying to check and see if he can win the battle which he can't so he retreats.. The bot does not understand that enemy was sitting on 2 bases whole time so he need to sacrifice army even if he loses it all, because it has superior economy and will create same army in 30 seconds... Instead he retreats to his main bases and loses units without fighting... Then the whole game. | ||
|
Modesty00
Bulgaria262 Posts
On December 12 2018 15:11 TT1 wrote: Can i pls get a link to the best Z (Microwave? looks very weak tho) and T (krasi0?/SAIDA already dled) bots? thx! BTW my antivirus won't let me extract DropLauncher-0.5.24.a.zip t_t. Would be nice if we could get a new SCR tutorial on how to play vs the bots, i'm not tech savvy at all :D. I'd love to practice builds against them. Wait for 20 December. Then the best zerg will be updated Facebook bot Cherry Pi. It has improved a lot since 1 year. And other zerg bots will be improved as well. Now they play really weak if you are experienced sc player. No high rank, just experienced. Currently best zerg is Marian Devechka but has 0.. Again zero overlord safety and suicides like first 3 overlords and gets really behind. then has major flaws like he goes for muta but as soon sees 1 valkyrue or corsairs switches to unupgraded hydra and abandons his whole powerful mutas. Instead of making scourge... Hopefully all that will be fixed on 20 December as well improvements on his muta micro. | ||
|
Modesty00
Bulgaria262 Posts
On December 13 2018 12:01 Broodwar4lyf wrote: I played these over a year ago and I guess they've improved a lot, I'm a D player but I could easily detect exploitable patterns after 4 games. If they could make it that the routines adapted more then it would be great fun for ppl like myself You will be up for a candy. In last 10 months was massive improvements and new bots showed up and they all be updated and improved on 20 December. But If your rank is max D D plus, then I'm afraid you will have serious difficulties l vs top bots, but do try and record video. | ||
|
Modesty00
Bulgaria262 Posts
On December 13 2018 04:28 Dante08 wrote: Are there any kind of apm limitations placed on the bots? If not it would be pretty unfair as the bots would be capable of actions that humans can't physically replicate. Not really sure on that but Well if the bot has 300-500 apm max it won even beat D minus human... Because it needs to constantly check everything.. Human can see whole picture and plan ahead. A bot does a action for couple seconds... Then he starts from zero and need to do that same action again.. You know what I mean? Other example human is zerg and does 9 drones and overlord. By the time overlord finishes human does not need to make single click with mouse or hitting any key on keyboard. The bot on other hand I think will spam that apm to 5 000 because its how is made to work. Not sure completely on that but you get the idea. Don't be afraid of apm. It's like a sprint marathon. You are slower, bot is faster, but you take clean short cut while the bot takes longer path with many obsticles. Show that you are smarter and better so coders to know what to fix and improve. Now if you have 50-100 apm.. I'm afraid it's too late for you and top bots might already passed you by 10 miles. Your only chance is 4pool rush or bunker rush something like that and might win as this is the weakest side of bots, defending super early attack. But they have improved on that also. Someone asked me. That does not make any sense. A bot should already know by long ago how to stop such early attack since there are so little units and nothing smart really. Simple answer will be analogy to chess. Endgame at chess has very few pieces on board. The less pieces/units the less to calculate right? Well.. Wrong. The room for the pieces to maneuver is much greater. Also Thing is the cbance of mistake is actually greater and a single mistake is valued huuge. You don't care if you lose 2 lings/workers at 10 minute mark. But at 2min mark might be game over you see.. User was warned for this post. | ||
|
jimminy_kriket
Canada5525 Posts
| ||
|
Piste
6181 Posts
On December 11 2018 23:38 LG)Sabbath wrote: If you make a "fair" bot, restrict it with human limitations like response time of ~150ms and max 400 apm, it is not going to do that well That makes no sense :D | ||
|
Simberto
Germany11735 Posts
If you see it as a strategy game that is about strategy, it makes no sense. If you see it as a sport that is at least partially based on physical performance, and the physical control of things is the interesting thing, than it makes sense. I tend to be on the first side of the argument, i think strategy is more interesting than execution. | ||
|
kogeT
Poland2041 Posts
| ||
|
TelecoM
United States10689 Posts
| ||
|
fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium4040 Posts
would be a fun challenge to try to out-cheese and out-macro the metal fucker knowing that your units are x times less efficient  | ||
|
L3gendary
Canada1470 Posts
On December 12 2018 08:14 Modesty00 wrote: 1. Download this and extract it https://github.com/adakitesystems/DropLauncher 2. Download a bot from sscait website, I'll send you one of best protoss https://sscaitournament.com/bot_binary.php?bot=BananaBrain 3. Download his Bwapi file https://sscaitournament.com/bot_binary.php?bot=BananaBrain&bwapi_dll=true 4. Launch the launcher and load the bot and his Bwapi file. Choose protoss as his race. 5 start broodwar in LAN UDP mode and choose mellee game mode on FS map or python or benzene etc.. Circuit breaker... 6. Press join on DropLauncher and the bot shout join and press start. 7. Don't forget to record your game and stream it or upload on YouTube and type link here Don't rush bot like 5pool as they are not very good at defending it. Don't judge bot by only one or two games, they have different openings and Sleightly adapt on your play. This is rule based bots, so half the things he does might look weird or stupid, since it does not have mind of his own but it plays absolutely fair and tries to follow decent game plan and strategy. Bots are made with competition against other bots so tricks by humans most definetely will work. Thanks. I don't see an executable file for the launcher so how do I launch it? edit: nvm I had downloaded the repo instead of the version 0.5.24a below in the link | ||
|
Broodwar4lyf
304 Posts
| ||
|
Modesty00
Bulgaria262 Posts
The war is heating up. Less than 36h before the Anual tournament starts. Coders are updating their bots every couple hours with latest fixes and improvements. Some have been waiting and hiding their work for more than months and now will shock everybody with their powerful bot (locutus/cherrypi/saida) . You can watch at twitch or YouTube channel of Sscait. Top updated bots are playing better than ever. Still some weird things but huge improvement over year ago. I will post here few bots that are excellent for human bots play, after their final update tomorrow. You will witness huge makro zerg bots with great build opening, never supply blocked (atlough overlord safety needs work) tons of units, good mutalisk Pro style micro (stacked) while makroing non stop etc, Bots with excellent goon micro, proxy gate zeilot rushes, Teran bot that will stop almost any kind of cheese (maybe) and then will make timing push and beat you.. and so on so on.. | ||
|
BlueStar
Bulgaria1168 Posts
I believe the AIs had APM and something else restricted to a given value. Anyone remembers it? | ||
|
Modesty00
Bulgaria262 Posts
| ||
|
Burned Toast
Canada2040 Posts
On December 19 2018 23:10 BlueStar wrote: There was a tournament of starcraft enthusiasts and progamers (I remember Stork participating) who faced different AIs. It was held about an year ago (in Korea obv). I believe the AIs had APM and something else restricted to a given value. Anyone remembers it? This one ? | ||
|
lepape
Canada557 Posts
By learning by playing against itself millions of times, with no reference to how humans play the game, it'll come up with all sorts of crazy builds and strategies that no one has ever came up with. Maybe M&M is actually the best unit composition in TvP when you have 10 000 APM. Maybe scouting at 6 then double FE is an undiscovered good build in ZvT. And pro gamers will start to adopt those strategies into their own plays. | ||
|
Modesty00
Bulgaria262 Posts
It's well balanced bot I would say, but just like name suugest, it does not have much logic, (example can chase your drone forever in his main... Or will transfer probes in middle of battle...) but has decent makro and micro, sometimes suicidal... But compensate with makro. Can you beat him? Download bot https://sscaitournament.com/bot_binary.php?bot=BananaBrain Download his Bwapi.Dll file https://sscaitournament.com/bot_binary.php?bot=BananaBrain&bwapi_dll=true Download and open launcher, load bot, load his. Dll file, choose his protoss race, create game in UDP LAN mode Melee type and hit join game from launcher. https://github.com/adakitesystems/DropLauncher/releases/download/0.5.24a/DropLauncher-0.5.24a.zip | ||
|
Jealous
10267 Posts
On December 20 2018 01:24 lepape wrote: AI revolutionized how chess is played by chestmasters today, and it'll revolutionize Boor War as soon as bots become stronger than the top gamers, this will be fascinating. By learning by playing against itself millions of times, with no reference to how humans play the game, it'll come up with all sorts of crazy builds and strategies that no one has ever came up with. Maybe M&M is actually the best unit composition in TvP when you have 10 000 APM. Maybe scouting at 6 then double FE is an undiscovered good build in ZvT. And pro gamers will start to adopt those strategies into their own plays. I'm pretty sure that's not how these AI work. They don't learn by playing themselves and they absolutely do have reference from how humans play the game, as far as I know. | ||
| ||
