i dont care what anyone says, as long as bot capabilities are restricted to match humans (apm etc), they arent going to beat pros for a long time. starcraft isnt just about micro and macro executions. you have to make decisions with imperfect information; most of these decisions being calculated risks and gambles based on what you THINK your opponent might do/be doing. this is where ai will fail. you cannot teach a computer to understand the tendencies and traits of your opponent. what flash is able to do comes from not just having superior understanding of the game, but understanding who his opponent is. what jd might do in any given situation will be different from what larva might want to do in the exact same scenario.
the above is the same reason why bots will not beat pros in dota also. not for the forseeable future at least.
On December 20 2018 01:24 lepape wrote: AI revolutionized how chess is played by chestmasters today, and it'll revolutionize Boor War as soon as bots become stronger than the top gamers, this will be fascinating.
By learning by playing against itself millions of times, with no reference to how humans play the game, it'll come up with all sorts of crazy builds and strategies that no one has ever came up with. Maybe M&M is actually the best unit composition in TvP when you have 10 000 APM. Maybe scouting at 6 then double FE is an undiscovered good build in ZvT. And pro gamers will start to adopt those strategies into their own plays.
I'm pretty sure that's not how these AI work. They don't learn by playing themselves and they absolutely do have reference from how humans play the game, as far as I know.
Sc1 bots no, but deepmind by Google already made progress and came up with its own strategies like probe rushing the build in a. I. And winning. And perhaps after they concur sc2, they will drop a bot for sc1 as well. But current rule based sc1 bots do have some learning implemented like dynamic opening build, some have over 10 openings vs single race. Also cherrypi has Machine learning things inside like building placement that was trained on human Replays. Next year saida might have reinforcement learning so yeah.. We will wait and see, meanwhile why don't you guys proof humans still better?
On December 20 2018 01:24 lepape wrote: AI revolutionized how chess is played by chestmasters today, and it'll revolutionize Boor War as soon as bots become stronger than the top gamers, this will be fascinating.
By learning by playing against itself millions of times, with no reference to how humans play the game, it'll come up with all sorts of crazy builds and strategies that no one has ever came up with. Maybe M&M is actually the best unit composition in TvP when you have 10 000 APM. Maybe scouting at 6 then double FE is an undiscovered good build in ZvT. And pro gamers will start to adopt those strategies into their own plays.
I'm pretty sure that's not how these AI work. They don't learn by playing themselves and they absolutely do have reference from how humans play the game, as far as I know.
Sc1 bots no, but deepmind by Google already made progress and came up with its own strategies like probe rushing the build in a. I. And winning. And perhaps after they concur sc2, they will drop a bot for sc1 as well. But current rule based sc1 bots do have some learning implemented like dynamic opening build, some have over 10 openings vs single race. Also cherrypi has Machine learning things inside like building placement that was trained on human Replays. Next year saida might have reinforcement learning so yeah.. We will wait and see, meanwhile why don't you guys proof humans still better?
Like I said before, I was expecting you to be hosting this bot on ICCup. I imagine it can't be that hard to have the bot autohost a game on ICCup, start the game when an opponent is inside, play, then host again after game is done. Maybe not inside the bot itself, but as a tertiary script or something. Gameranger does it quite easily and that is ancient technology.
The more barriers of entry you place between players and AI, the fewer people will care enough to make the leap. Playing on 1.16 is already practically unheard of for the majority of the foreign Brood War population. A few of us still have it installed from well over a year ago, which is why I would be willing to log on to play a game or two on it. However, having to download a bunch of stuff to run it on my own is just too much of a hassle for too little benefit.
I know you've been saying that AI have been improving, yet you still put the challenge out to D and C players. D players (and a few games at C-/C level) were already losing to AI over a year ago:
So if you're still putting out the challenge to the same level players, it sort of sends the message that not nearly that much has changed.
For example, in one of the games I played against a bot, I simply placed a Pylon in his natural to prevent his CC from landing. The creator commented on it, saying "oh, this guy must know how this bot works, and he is smartly abusing its weakness!" No. I never played that bot before in my life. I just know that bots are dumb and all you have to do is prevent them from doing their build and they fumble like idiots. It seems from your comments about the bots and how they still have readily exploitable weaknesses means, on top of the lack of current full machine-learning, that players will not be as motivated to jump through the hurdles I mentioned above to play AI when they can just log onto Battle.net and play against a human. It certainly sounds like the revolution you promise in your OP is very far away.
I am not sure of current level of skills on iccup. I have played 5 years ago and I imagine B plus back there to be C now, since now there are less people.. not sure.. But then I started to watch streams and I see C+ playing like D+ back then or worse. Maybe points are changed don't know. Also the thing with bots now is they can do pro level play/ tricks on certain aspects of the game, . But lack of brain is still importhant so maybe there is a experienced inactive player with low apm who is stuck on d level but plays all races, , but really knows what is he doing and knows build orders timing push etc. Which might work very well against the bot but not vs human.. It has to be tested and to see. Also new bots are arriving and if one protoss bot has wins vs human, and that bot loses to new better bot, it does not mean the new bot will beat that same human... Sc is really complicated, in bots world D+ 60rank can score win vs #1 A- bot.. Which is almost impossible in human vs human I also want to host a game on iccup in obs mode, bot joins and plays and obs watching.. But no bot coder has done this yet. Looks like they have so much to code and improve that they see this is waste of time, I imagine would be whole week or two work..or they don't know.. And I don't know how to do it since I'm not coder.... Revolutions has started. Bots can beat humans. Even pro human as you can see from the video. Now I started watch bots only by year ago.. But I can see how bots from 2013 have played since some are not updated since then. And today top bots wipe the flor with them. If back then they have won vs humans.. Imagine now.. But still bots do not know every single trick in the book and since are rule based and not NN, and if they are not coded to certain things, which author thinks is not importhant since no other bot is doing it.. it will bug the bot or slow him a lot. Good thing about this is a top rule based bot like Saida is coded very well and recognizes simular tricks and if scout or sees it imidiately change its plans, etc.. Tries to adapt.. If it sees you with 3 gate goon range it understand you want to rush him.. That's smart or it mimic being smart. That's why I created this topic to see is it enough to beat humans and how cleaver are humans etc.. Already tested with one friend and bot scored 3 wins and human is like C so.. Other bot won vs pro Soulkey but might lose to d plus iccup player, need to be tested.
Based on what they have planned, it will be a lot easier to play vs AI than the way it is done currently. I mainly switched to SC2 AI until BWAPI for Remastered is released.
Also, the SSCAI tournament will start soon. Submissions will be closed 1 hour from now, so there is that to look forward to.
i dont care what anyone says, as long as bot capabilities are restricted to match humans (apm etc), they arent going to beat pros for a long time. starcraft isnt just about micro and macro executions. you have to make decisions with imperfect information; most of these decisions being calculated risks and gambles based on what you THINK your opponent might do/be doing. this is where ai will fail. you cannot teach a computer to understand the tendencies and traits of your opponent. what flash is able to do comes from not just having superior understanding of the game, but understanding who his opponent is. what jd might do in any given situation will be different from what larva might want to do in the exact same scenario.
the above is the same reason why bots will not beat pros in dota also. not for the forseeable future at least.
I'm not sure you're correct about this. To use a simple example, some BW bots execute a 3-hatch muta strat and swarm with perfect muta micro. Although it's good to scout your opponent with builds like this, it isn't always absolutely necessary if you build safety sunks at the natural.
In the realm of deep learning AI, I doubt that they will have much trouble obtaining information they need to make good decisions. If there's anything I notice about the deep learning AI's that have played chess and DOTA, it's that they are hyper-aggressive. I would predict a BW deep learning AI would similarly attack early and often, meaning it will almost always have a good read on the human's army.
I also doubt a deep learning AI wouldn't learn to spread across the map with e.g. overlords to detect drops. It would not take many lost games for it to learn that it fares better when it sees a drop coming ahead of time. Once it learns about how to scout and maintain vision I doubt it will have trouble with surprise attacks or tech.
On December 20 2018 16:26 evilfatsh1t wrote: i dont care what anyone says, as long as bot capabilities are restricted to match humans (apm etc), they arent going to beat pros for a long time. starcraft isnt just about micro and macro executions. you have to make decisions with imperfect information; most of these decisions being calculated risks and gambles based on what you THINK your opponent might do/be doing. this is where ai will fail. you cannot teach a computer to understand the tendencies and traits of your opponent. what flash is able to do comes from not just having superior understanding of the game, but understanding who his opponent is. what jd might do in any given situation will be different from what larva might want to do in the exact same scenario.
the above is the same reason why bots will not beat pros in dota also. not for the forseeable future at least.
A. I. Just succeeded in exactly that. Cherrypi bot uses "machine learning moder for high-level strategy selection" basically the bot switches his plan and strategy few times during the game, based on what the bot thinks in that moment which strategy will have highest win rate taking in consideration what enemy is doing. Not as close as Trained Neural net like from deepmind, or anything close than human knowledge and decissions, but better I guess than automated rule based responses, sees air unit, biids turret but does not know how much or when to stop or to continue. https://torchcraft.github.io/TorchCraftAI/blog/
On December 20 2018 16:26 evilfatsh1t wrote: i dont care what anyone says, as long as bot capabilities are restricted to match humans (apm etc), they arent going to beat pros for a long time. starcraft isnt just about micro and macro executions. you have to make decisions with imperfect information; most of these decisions being calculated risks and gambles based on what you THINK your opponent might do/be doing. this is where ai will fail. you cannot teach a computer to understand the tendencies and traits of your opponent. what flash is able to do comes from not just having superior understanding of the game, but understanding who his opponent is. what jd might do in any given situation will be different from what larva might want to do in the exact same scenario.
the above is the same reason why bots will not beat pros in dota also. not for the forseeable future at least.
i dont care what anyone says, as long as bot capabilities are restricted to match humans (apm etc), they arent going to beat pros for a long time. starcraft isnt just about micro and macro executions. you have to make decisions with imperfect information; most of these decisions being calculated risks and gambles based on what you THINK your opponent might do/be doing. this is where ai will fail. you cannot teach a computer to understand the tendencies and traits of your opponent. what flash is able to do comes from not just having superior understanding of the game, but understanding who his opponent is. what jd might do in any given situation will be different from what larva might want to do in the exact same scenario.
the above is the same reason why bots will not beat pros in dota also. not for the forseeable future at least.
I'm not sure you're correct about this. To use a simple example, some BW bots execute a 3-hatch muta strat and swarm with perfect muta micro. Although it's good to scout your opponent with builds like this, it isn't always absolutely necessary if you build safety sunks at the natural.
In the realm of deep learning AI, I doubt that they will have much trouble obtaining information they need to make good decisions. If there's anything I notice about the deep learning AI's that have played chess and DOTA, it's that they are hyper-aggressive. I would predict a BW deep learning AI would similarly attack early and often, meaning it will almost always have a good read on the human's army.
I also doubt a deep learning AI wouldn't learn to spread across the map with e.g. overlords to detect drops. It would not take many lost games for it to learn that it fares better when it sees a drop coming ahead of time. Once it learns about how to scout and maintain vision I doubt it will have trouble with surprise attacks or tech.
i never said good ai would have difficulty in obtaining information and i do not doubt for one second the ai's ability to use that information. alphago is a perfect example of what the ai is able to do given perfect information and an environment where they can calculate the absolute best play with zero variance. dota/sc are games that do not provide these environments. no matter how good the ai is at collecting information, their information is far from complete and because of the real-time element of the game, there are so many variables in every scenario that it leaves no choice for the ai to have to make a gamble based on probability. my opinion is that the quality of their decisions based on the information they DONT have will be inferior to humans because they cannot understand the nature of their opponent. their understanding of the game is limited to statistics and numbers as far as i know
On December 20 2018 16:26 evilfatsh1t wrote: i dont care what anyone says, as long as bot capabilities are restricted to match humans (apm etc), they arent going to beat pros for a long time. starcraft isnt just about micro and macro executions. you have to make decisions with imperfect information; most of these decisions being calculated risks and gambles based on what you THINK your opponent might do/be doing. this is where ai will fail. you cannot teach a computer to understand the tendencies and traits of your opponent. what flash is able to do comes from not just having superior understanding of the game, but understanding who his opponent is. what jd might do in any given situation will be different from what larva might want to do in the exact same scenario.
the above is the same reason why bots will not beat pros in dota also. not for the forseeable future at least.
this game is not even close to a proper demonstration of what the ai can do against a legitimate pro team in a relatively even playing environment. the human team is comprised of casters that dont play anywhere near the professional level anymore (it doesnt matter that they were ex-pros, being retired for a significant amount of time severely affects playing ability). one of them (capitalist) is pretty much an amateur even. also the teams are given individual couriers since the start of the game which is pretty stupid and the hero pool is limited to begin with. the actual pro team that vsed openai toyed with them.
I just lost to one of top bots... Omg he outsmarted me... I can't believed... He actually outsmarted me...and I'm freaking C/C+ Rank... Jesus... + Show Spoiler +
I was zerg went for standard 3h spire 5h hydra, he went fe.. But he cancelled it and went for proxy 3 gate in middle of the game and rushed me with 20 zeilot just before I mstarted mutas... He eliminated me omg.. Gg.. He even hided all of his pylon so my over in his base saw nothing.. Was too late
Good news everybody. Thanks from help from bot coders, Now you can play vs bot in ICCUP simply create a game in melee mode and message me here first so we set time and date. I am in lobby currently online - name A.I.Bot
So quick update , BananaBrain and Locutus which are top protoss bots lose easily to players who in the past were max B- B B+ A- ranks even if they play offrace as they cheese bot and there is their weakness. I have very interesting replays, like bot goes for proxy, human goes for proxy too ... it was hilarious , bot lost , Other game bot goes proxy again but blocks his ramp, but human does cannon rush him and wins or kills 1 probe enters main , and builds barraks/factory while bot goes DT , human blocks entry and bot is lost etc. But Bot BananaBrain won one game. Other cases is bot encounters play which havent seen by other bots and humans just dominate them with early agressions, mines etc, 2 factory push
On December 22 2018 04:43 Modesty00 wrote: I just lost to one of top bots... Omg he outsmarted me... I can't believed... He actually outsmarted me...and I'm freaking C/C+ Rank... Jesus... + Show Spoiler +
I was zerg went for standard 3h spire 5h hydra, he went fe.. But he cancelled it and went for proxy 3 gate in middle of the game and rushed me with 20 zeilot just before I mstarted mutas... He eliminated me omg.. Gg.. He even hided all of his pylon so my over in his base saw nothing.. Was too late
dude that actually sounds amazing, do you have the rep?
I'm trying to download SAIDA bot (arguably the best one ever) but it seems it's gone. Also those library errors when executing the exe is a pain in the ass.
On November 20 2019 10:36 Broodwar4lyf wrote: I'm trying to download SAIDA bot (arguably the best one ever) but it seems it's gone. Also those library errors when executing the exe is a pain in the ass.
EPT
