On December 12 2018 03:33 Dangermousecatdog wrote: To those who are asking why an AI should be limited in APM or lag, a bad analogy would be tennis. In a competition against a human, a tennis ball launched at 200 m/s by an air gun with a camera to aim anywhere that wouldn't injure Roger Federer on contact with said tennis ball, that machine will always take the point overr Roger Federer (or whoever the human is) every time. Is that exciting? Does that truly fulfil the strategic sport aspect of tennis? It does not.
Watching a humanoid robot that can serve a tennis ball at 200 m/s against a human would be boring indeed; such a robot would be much better at tennis than the best human. However, I would be interested in watching a tournament of such robots.
On December 12 2018 03:28 L3gendary wrote: How does one go about playing against a good bot? Is there a repo or something I can download to play one offline?
On December 11 2018 22:14 Modesty00 wrote: Example storm dodging. Even pro humans lose units to storm in PvZ. But they can predict when other human could storm. But a bot can storm dodge instantly. Bot can seperate irradieted mutalisk from the stack instantly. They are better than pro humans in that scenario. You see where im going. Little by little bot do things better than even pro humans. And now is pretty much the time to test and see how much those bot things can help the bot to win games...
If you make a "fair" bot, restrict it with human limitations like response time of ~150ms and max 400 apm, it is not going to do that well
Currently bots are done to compete against other bots. The field is pretty difficult already so doing that will increase the difficulty for coding even more for lonely hobbyists. That will be done I'm sure by Deepmind in few years from now. But I don't remember deep blue being limited to only 100 positions per second vs Gary Kasparov or AlphaGo being limited vs the Go champion. Why should they do that in starcraft and how is not fair? If you are playing vs human and he has 6 finger then is not fair... What's next.. Oh I lost to human who plays the game 5 years me only 2 that's not fair.. I heard a comment where bot should have play with mouse and see only part of screen just like human... Really.. Does the plane fly like a bird or does submarine really swim?
Well, if were going to compete against one another, and if there is supposed to be some basis of comparison at all, starcraft is a physical sport, so expect demands on physical limitations, or simple disinterest from the community. Why would it be any other way? It's a bit like creating an A.I runner who competes in marathons against humans, but its powered by a car like engine and on wheels. Wtf is going on?
On December 12 2018 00:27 Dazed. wrote: The only context in which a bot could beat a [decent] human in broodwar is if it breaks the physical limitations of the game and micros' each unit a million times a second or something else absurd. Which, really, is not impressive from an artificial intelligence stand point, nor would it be fun to play against. So in short, yawn. Come at me when you can actually make an ai that engages in reasonable strategy.
What do you mean by reasonable strategy? Correct decision making in strategy game by bot will be very impressive. .
Correct choices based on the information presented. I.e something that would actually work if it were not for the fact that the computer is using 400k apm to offset its otherwise idiotic choices. And your right, it would be impressive if the ai made the correct decisions: Just like it isnt impressive if an ai plays well by abusing the mechanics of bw absent strategically correct decisions. Which, atm, is what bots currently are in bw.
Wrong comparison. This is strategy game. Apm/speed won't matter as much as how smart you play. This is the goal after all. If the human is smarter than a. I. It will outsmart it and win. Besides pro level humans are fast enough so they can play perfect timing attack if they want. Is not like they need more apm to compete vs bot. Just like chess, but sc even better chance to show your brilliance. And wrong again. Apm does not save the bots. They don't really compensate bad play with huge apm. Let the bot have his 20k apm. It won't save him if his decisions are bad. And wrong again. Bots does not do anything out of normal. They use strategy and they adapt during the game and even for next game. You have zero clue about the bots and very wrong assumptions. Download and try one bot bellow. They are noting close to cheating build in ai in custom maps created by some suspicious hackers.
On December 12 2018 03:28 L3gendary wrote: How does one go about playing against a good bot? Is there a repo or something I can download to play one offline?
1. Download this and extract it https://github.com/adakitesystems/DropLauncher 2. Download a bot from sscait website, I'll send you one of best protoss https://sscaitournament.com/bot_binary.php?bot=BananaBrain 3. Download his Bwapi file https://sscaitournament.com/bot_binary.php?bot=BananaBrain&bwapi_dll=true 4. Launch the launcher and load the bot and his Bwapi file. Choose protoss as his race. 5 start broodwar in LAN UDP mode and choose mellee game mode on FS map or python or benzene etc.. Circuit breaker... 6. Press join on DropLauncher and the bot shout join and press start. 7. Don't forget to record your game and stream it or upload on YouTube and type link here Don't rush bot like 5pool as they are not very good at defending it. Don't judge bot by only one or two games, they have different openings and Sleightly adapt on your play. This is rule based bots, so half the things he does might look weird or stupid, since it does not have mind of his own but it plays absolutely fair and tries to follow decent game plan and strategy. Bots are made with competition against other bots so tricks by humans most definetely will work.
Here's another example. Tastosis mentioned that Flash counts drones in one of the ASL casts. Obviously, Flash doesn't count each individual drone in the mineral line, he just eyeballs it. Are there a small number of drones or a lot of drones? From there, Flash can determine what the zerg is doing. How many frames does Flash need to count the drones? 20? 30? 100?
Just a detail, but I think Flash and other pros actually do count (almost) every worker in certain situations, like versus a 2hatch-muta build or something to determine how all-in an opponent is. Or during early scouting, to sniff out hidden proxies in TvP for example, a lack of 2-3 probes can give that away. Obviously not in the mid- to lategame when the workers are overlapping or when you don't really need the exact number but, as you wrote, eyeballing is enough.
In ZvZ it's very common to count every drone, admittingly there aren't that many in a lot of situations though.
On December 12 2018 03:33 Dangermousecatdog wrote: To those who are asking why an AI should be limited in APM or lag, a bad analogy would be tennis. In a competition against a human, a tennis ball launched at 200 m/s by an air gun with a camera to aim anywhere that wouldn't injure Roger Federer on contact with said tennis ball, that machine will always take the point overr Roger Federer (or whoever the human is) every time. Is that exciting? Does that truly fulfil the strategic sport aspect of tennis? It does not.
Again this is strategy game. In Zvz an skilled amateur with 180 apm can beat a pro player with 400 apm by simply making 4 lings more in simular build or hiding them and do surprise attack. Anything can happen. APM is pointless. When the bots wins a game vs pro human most cases will be human fails to outsmart the bot of bot launches tricky attack, it won't be because one player was so slow he had 20 units less in the battle that cost him the game because low apm. . In order this to happen the bot should demonstrate outstanding skills in other areas other than makro and micro and to survive first several minutes which are critical. . In near future pro vs bot won't be long games like 20 30 minutes where human gets tired and bot is taking whole map and controls many units etc. No. All games will end in first 5-13 minutes. Where is most critical part and humans can demo nstrate brain.
On December 12 2018 03:33 Dangermousecatdog wrote: To those who are asking why an AI should be limited in APM or lag, a bad analogy would be tennis. In a competition against a human, a tennis ball launched at 200 m/s by an air gun with a camera to aim anywhere that wouldn't injure Roger Federer on contact with said tennis ball, that machine will always take the point overr Roger Federer (or whoever the human is) every time. Is that exciting? Does that truly fulfil the strategic sport aspect of tennis? It does not.
Again this is strategy game. In Zvz an skilled amateur with 180 apm can beat a pro player with 400 apm by simply making 4 lings more in simular build or hiding them and do surprise attack. APM is pointless. When the bots wins a game vs pro human most cases will be human fails to outsmart the bot of bot launches tricky attack, it won't be because one player was so slow he had 20 units less in the battle that cost him the game. In order this to happen the bot should demonstrate outstanding skills in other areas other than makro and micro.
On December 12 2018 03:00 Jealous wrote: I will play your bots on stream. I played LetaBot a few years ago (as well as a few others) and found it to be fairly interesting, sometimes.
Also, JFL @ opening the discussion by comparing a Grandmaster chess player to a sub 1400 MMR player in Europe.
On December 12 2018 03:00 Jealous wrote: I will play your bots on stream. I played LetaBot a few years ago (as well as a few others) and found it to be fairly interesting, sometimes.
Also, JFL @ opening the discussion by comparing a Grandmaster chess player to a sub 1400 MMR player in Europe.
On December 12 2018 03:33 Dangermousecatdog wrote: To those who are asking why an AI should be limited in APM or lag, a bad analogy would be tennis. In a competition against a human, a tennis ball launched at 200 m/s by an air gun with a camera to aim anywhere that wouldn't injure Roger Federer on contact with said tennis ball, that machine will always take the point overr Roger Federer (or whoever the human is) every time. Is that exciting? Does that truly fulfil the strategic sport aspect of tennis? It does not.
Again this is strategy game. In Zvz an skilled amateur with 180 apm can beat a pro player with 400 apm by simply making 4 lings more in simular build or hiding them and do surprise attack. Anything can happen. APM is pointless. When the bots wins a game vs pro human most cases will be human fails to outsmart the bot of bot launches tricky attack, it won't be because one player was so slow he had 20 units less in the battle that cost him the game because low apm. . In order this to happen the bot should demonstrate outstanding skills in other areas other than makro and micro and to survive first several minutes which are critical. . In near future pro vs bot won't be long games like 20 30 minutes where human gets tired and bot is taking whole map and controls many units etc. No. All games will end in first 5-13 minutes. Where is most critical part and humans can demo nstrate brain.
Modesty I love you man but I don't think I agree. Have you seen the micro these bots can do? Like just the muta micro alone....a human player would be decimated...decimated utterly by a 2 port wraith or 2 hatch muta with each muta individually microed. Same in battled. There are some vids out there of bot going vs 12 goons with 12 goons and it takes zero losses. Not to mention the multitask. Think Bisu PvZ but unfathomably faster.
That's a crazy, crazy advantage. I mean if the bot is dumb as rocks it won't matter...but they will get better. And I'm not sure why all games end 5-13 minutes...the bots will get smarter than the players. Bots will eventually get better there as well.
Here's another example. Tastosis mentioned that Flash counts drones in one of the ASL casts. Obviously, Flash doesn't count each individual drone in the mineral line, he just eyeballs it. Are there a small number of drones or a lot of drones? From there, Flash can determine what the zerg is doing. How many frames does Flash need to count the drones? 20? 30? 100?
Just a detail, but I think Flash and other pros actually do count (almost) every worker in certain situations, like versus a 2hatch-muta build or something to determine how all-in an opponent is. Or during early scouting, to sniff out hidden proxies in TvP for example, a lack of 2-3 probes can give that away. Obviously not in the mid- to lategame when the workers are overlapping or when you don't really need the exact number but, as you wrote, eyeballing is enough.
In ZvZ it's very common to count every drone, admittingly there aren't that many in a lot of situations though.
TIL. I thought Tastosis meant eyeballing because counting each individual drone is beyond the capacity of this D rank Terran. Time to fall down the card/worker counting hole.
Can i pls get a link to the best Z (Microwave? looks very weak tho) and T (krasi0?/SAIDA already dled) bots? thx!
BTW my antivirus won't let me extract DropLauncher-0.5.24.a.zip t_t. Would be nice if we could get a new SCR tutorial on how to play vs the bots, i'm not tech savvy at all :D. I'd love to practice builds against them.
well your AV probably intervening bc those launcher do process injection, a technique that is also used by malicious software. If you have it from official source add a exception to your AV.
I’m currently at work with no access to YT (L), but I strongly suggest you go check some AI Micro bots on StarCraft 2. Some people made some amazing tank/dropship micro bots that can shred a full army in no time while microing 10+ dropships/tanks simultaneously. I think it’s pretty much self-explanatory after that that you need to implement APM limitation in AI VS Human games, else the impact is just too great.
Using that kind of micro bot, you can win if you don’t let the bot get one tank/dropship. If it reach 1+ of that combo, you just CANNOT win anymore, that is just not possible. A dumb bot with no macro script, no intelligence, nothing basically, can outclass any pro player just with 1 dropship/tank, let alone a full army of that fully microed…
To remind some details on the Chess/Go bots : the fundamental difference between Chess and Go is the size of the board. It is precisely what made AlphaGo’s achievement incredible. In chess, a computer can just “brute force” calculate the entirety of the position and then extrapolate to other combination and then find the best one on a given situation.
After the win over Kasparov, the next game decided to improve bots was Go, for a simple reason: the board is waay larger than chess. Which makes these “brute force” calculation impossible, because even a top computer have not enough calculation power to do what was done in chess. So, in order to win against human, the bot needed to be more than just a calculating machine, which is where machine learning intervene.
The tennis analogy was a good one I think, let’s put it this way. There is a humanoid bot playing against a human. No super service, no super anything. Just a superior calculation power. The ball gets to the human player, who hits it. From the time the ball left the human’s racket, the bot has already calculated, given the angle of the racket, the position of the ball on the racket, the energy put into the hit, … WHERE the ball is gonna end on his side. So the ball has not even left the racket of the human player, the bot has already started to move where the ball is gonna be. So basically, the bot cannot ever be misplaced, so he cannot ever miss a ball. So he basically cannot lose a point.
I fail to see the fun in watching this, let alone the fairness of that kind of “competition”.
Soooooo, to sum this up, this is why you can’t overlook APM regulation for Human VS AI competition. I don’t want to minimize the work you or other bots designers are putting into it, or the achievements made. I am just expressing why I wouldn’t be interested in watching AI VS Human on StarCraft if there are no clear “rules” implemented which limit the calculation and sheer mechanical advantage the bot has over the human player.
Are there any kind of apm limitations placed on the bots? If not it would be pretty unfair as the bots would be capable of actions that humans can't physically replicate.
On December 12 2018 15:11 TT1 wrote: Can i pls get a link to the best Z (Microwave? looks very weak tho) and T (krasi0?/SAIDA already dled) bots? thx!
BTW my antivirus won't let me extract DropLauncher-0.5.24.a.zip t_t. Would be nice if we could get a new SCR tutorial on how to play vs the bots, i'm not tech savvy at all :D. I'd love to practice builds against them.
If you click on the name of the bots in this page, you will go to a page where you can download the DLL/EXE of that bot:
EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/NfhXK.jpg)
