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On November 13 2018 01:20 JieXian wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2018 19:23 zerglingling wrote:On November 12 2018 15:53 JieXian wrote:On November 12 2018 14:45 zerglingling wrote:
I thought that Flash misread that natural scan on Sylphid. How so? Flash built an additional bunker in anticipation of the lurkers didn't he? You're right, that couldn't have been a muta reaction. But the moveout still didn't feel right, maybe he thought it's a slow drop over the wall and went to check? Perhaps, but the standard response to a lurker opening is to move out so that the lurkers do not have free reign to burrow right at the natural, similar to late game TvZ where you need to move out to slow down the defiler before he gets to place dark swarms at your natural.
Exactly, and I'm surprised nobody mentioned how crucial was that effort quickly killed the mnm group Flash had out in the game 4. With that army out in the field, Flash would have had the options to both, cut the reinforcements for contain and attack the contain from two sides to break it early. It is absolutely a must for terran to have some map control before the defiler is out.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On November 13 2018 04:01 arbiter_md wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2018 01:20 JieXian wrote:On November 12 2018 19:23 zerglingling wrote:On November 12 2018 15:53 JieXian wrote:On November 12 2018 14:45 zerglingling wrote:
I thought that Flash misread that natural scan on Sylphid. How so? Flash built an additional bunker in anticipation of the lurkers didn't he? You're right, that couldn't have been a muta reaction. But the moveout still didn't feel right, maybe he thought it's a slow drop over the wall and went to check? Perhaps, but the standard response to a lurker opening is to move out so that the lurkers do not have free reign to burrow right at the natural, similar to late game TvZ where you need to move out to slow down the defiler before he gets to place dark swarms at your natural. Exactly, and I'm surprised nobody mentioned how crucial was that effort quickly killed the mnm group Flash had out in the game 4. With that army out in the field, Flash would have had the options to both, cut the reinforcements for contain and attack the contain from two sides to break it early. It is absolutely a must for terran to have some map control before the defiler is out.
Indeed. Flash's response in game 4 was spot on. Only thing he should've done differently imo is realize that he never killed that OL from EffOrt so EffOrt could try to run lurkers into his exp or do a backstab or whatever. Aka, EffOrt had vision of any moveouts and could adjust his plan. I think if he was more careful, and checked out the third base area etc... he may have gotten wind of it and saved his first group. That group is just so vital in keeping some map control, and cutting reinforcements that I typically feel I lost the game if I get lurker contained after losing it.
Flash scanned, and didn't see spire in exp so he anticipated lurkers. Got a second bunker, moved out to intercept and kite etc... It was playing it by the book, just didn't anticipate that lurker ambush (if you can call it that) and then EffOrt had a great zergling move with the surround, killed almost everything. From there, Flash was contained, and could do nothing except try to macro and tech for a break.
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Love the play from Effort! He is probably the only Zerg who can defeat Flash!
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On November 13 2018 06:06 BigFan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2018 04:01 arbiter_md wrote:On November 13 2018 01:20 JieXian wrote:On November 12 2018 19:23 zerglingling wrote:On November 12 2018 15:53 JieXian wrote:On November 12 2018 14:45 zerglingling wrote:
I thought that Flash misread that natural scan on Sylphid. How so? Flash built an additional bunker in anticipation of the lurkers didn't he? You're right, that couldn't have been a muta reaction. But the moveout still didn't feel right, maybe he thought it's a slow drop over the wall and went to check? Perhaps, but the standard response to a lurker opening is to move out so that the lurkers do not have free reign to burrow right at the natural, similar to late game TvZ where you need to move out to slow down the defiler before he gets to place dark swarms at your natural. Exactly, and I'm surprised nobody mentioned how crucial was that effort quickly killed the mnm group Flash had out in the game 4. With that army out in the field, Flash would have had the options to both, cut the reinforcements for contain and attack the contain from two sides to break it early. It is absolutely a must for terran to have some map control before the defiler is out. Indeed. Flash's response in game 4 was spot on. Only thing he should've done differently imo is realize that he never killed that OL from EffOrt so EffOrt could try to run lurkers into his exp or do a backstab or whatever. Aka, EffOrt had vision of any moveouts and could adjust his plan. I think if he was more careful, and checked out the third base area etc... he may have gotten wind of it and saved his first group. That group is just so vital in keeping some map control, and cutting reinforcements that I typically feel I lost the game if I get lurker contained after losing it. Flash scanned, and didn't see spire in exp so he anticipated lurkers. Got a second bunker, moved out to intercept and kite etc... It was playing it by the book, just didn't anticipate that lurker ambush (if you can call it that) and then EffOrt had a great zergling move with the surround, killed almost everything. From there, Flash was contained, and could do nothing except try to macro and tech for a break.
I think Flash's execution was quite sloppy throughout the entire series. While his decision to move out with his bionic army was the best course of action at the time, his execution of the play itself was absolutely horrid. He stimmed his marines into the open field giving himself multiple opportunities of a micro-management outplay potential, and instead of kiting down the enemy zerglings while avoiding lurkers, he stimmed into the zerglings from 30hp to 20hp without medic back-up, and lost his entire troop immediately, dooming himself. That specific moment wasn't a great micro-management outplay on EffOrt's part, it was Flash throwing his only hope away with shitty micro-management.
+ Show Spoiler +
In my opinion, with players that play to win hard like EffOrt, you are given multiple opportunities to escape with your execution, because EffOrt tries to win on all fronts, decision making, multi-tasking, and micro-management, leaving his opponents a window to outplay him should they rise up to the occasion because EffOrt on form plays as if he cannot be breached on any front, with the smallest change in detail potentially wrecking him. That day, I didn't particularly get the feeling that Flash was ready to beat down EffOrt mechanically.
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TLADT24920 Posts
Oh don't get me wrong, I was floored when I saw Flash lost his first army without killing a lurker or even much lings. The micro itself was just bad, and I have no clue what he was thinking. Guess he got nervous, and reacted too hastily. I didn't realize he double stimmed though. That's huge because losing another 10 hp before he even did anything means his marines were at half health already. As for the EffOrt part, my thoughts were that his lings moved and spread well enough to get a nice surround. With 10 hp less for each marine, that surround made that much of a difference imo.
My main point was that his response overall was proper, aka the second bunker, the moveout etc... but execution-wise, he failed it badly. Similar to that vulture surround in game 1 though if I remember correctly, he also didn't have speed so he would've gotten them surround soon enough with the small main. This of course assumes that the speed upgrades still has a fair bit of time to go.
As for EffOrt's playstyle, I think Flash was nervous going into the finals. EffOrt kept talking tough, and I'm pretty sure Flash still remembers that OSL from years past. If he relaxed and played as he normally does, I doubt he would've lost more than a game at best (would've won game 4 and won 3-1 imo).
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On November 13 2018 10:50 BigFan wrote:
As for EffOrt's playstyle, I think Flash was nervous going into the finals. EffOrt kept talking tough, and I'm pretty sure Flash still remembers that OSL from years past. If he relaxed and played as he normally does, I doubt he would've lost more than a game at best (would've won game 4 and won 3-1 imo).
We're not out of the loop, everybody already knows you were certain that Flash would have won 3 games out of 4 
Too bad Effort's game that day was out of the ordinary, and he brought Flash out of his comfort zone.
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Alien zergs doesnt give a hoot 'bout gods, ggwp effort
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It's the end of 2019 and BW and SC2 had never been so interesting. What a time to be alive <3
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United States948 Posts
On November 13 2018 18:14 StarscreamG1 wrote:
It's the end of 2019 and BW and SC2 had never been so interesting. What a time to be alive <3
Have I been in a coma for a year? What's the Bitcoin price now?
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Fuck yeah EffOrt! Blew up the God! Alien Zerg is God's N1 nemesis forever!
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On November 13 2018 10:50 BigFan wrote:
Oh don't get me wrong, I was floored when I saw Flash lost his first army without killing a lurker or even much lings. The micro itself was just bad, and I have no clue what he was thinking. Guess he got nervous, and reacted too hastily. I didn't realize he double stimmed though. That's huge because losing another 10 hp before he even did anything means his marines were at half health already. As for the EffOrt part, my thoughts were that his lings moved and spread well enough to get a nice surround. With 10 hp less for each marine, that surround made that much of a difference imo.
My main point was that his response overall was proper, aka the second bunker, the moveout etc... but execution-wise, he failed it badly. Similar to that vulture surround in game 1 though if I remember correctly, he also didn't have speed so he would've gotten them surround soon enough with the small main. This of course assumes that the speed upgrades still has a fair bit of time to go.
As for EffOrt's playstyle, I think Flash was nervous going into the finals. EffOrt kept talking tough, and I'm pretty sure Flash still remembers that OSL from years past. If he relaxed and played as he normally does, I doubt he would've lost more than a game at best (would've won game 4 and won 3-1 imo).
I don't believe a second in the nervous part, Flash looked pretty confident all games except when he lost game 4 where you could really read his face "shit this is happening again". Psychological warfare was huge during this series and Flash clearly lost on that ground, and even considering this, he played well game 5 and a lot of zerg would died to that dropship, even I felt this was the GG move for Flash but EffOrt handled it almost perfectly, his timing was terrific.
Of course this has nothing to do about being nervous, as if EffOrt wasn't nervous? This is about being better. EffOrt can rise his level to the extreme when he needs to, I have never seen a guy displaying so much confidence, his click is fast, precise, his decision making and mind game outstanding. And this ability to always stay cool and play better in dire situation. Do you guys realize at what level this zerg is playing? I don't know. Sure, Flash is more consistent in the long run but EffOrt can go one step beyond. And this leads to a 3/0 for him in a bo5 final on a 8 years timelapse. Perfect it is, don't you think so? Of course you don't.
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Let's just agree the better player [on that day] won. It is as simple as that. Going into the rabbit hole of bringing up wrist pain, nerves, nervous bowels or w/e if your favorite player loses is not the way to go.
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On November 13 2018 22:52 Cele wrote:
Let's just agree the better player [on that day] won. It is as simple as that. Going into the rabbit hole of bringing up wrist pain, nerves, nervous bowels or w/e if your favorite player loses is not the way to go.
Yes I think chalking it up to "tough talk" influencing Flash an assumption that should have been not be made.
(Edited because original post was not fair to BigFan upon rereading it)
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On November 14 2018 01:13 JieXian wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2018 22:52 Cele wrote:
Let's just agree the better player [on that day] won. It is as simple as that. Going into the rabbit hole of bringing up wrist pain, nerves, nervous bowels or w/e if your favorite player loses is not the way to go. Yes, and chalking it up to "tough talk" influencing Flash? He's Flash for god's sake. People should acknowledge the level of thought and skill displayed by both players out of respect. Like Pauline said, Effort's defense in G5 was outstanding, any other Zerg might have died there. I find Mr Fan's comment to be out of line and highly questionable.
I don't agree. It's well known bigfan is, well, a big fan of Flash. He also acknowledget the level of play shown by effort. I think he sometimes feels the pain as a fan of Flash heavy when he loses, which is perfectly normal. People have their private player bias like you and me, even when they are editor in chief (;
If it was Bisu, i might be the one chalking it up to something but not his opponent!
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even though effort lost game 3, i felt he was HELLBENT on winning the next two games and so he did. he just seemed to much stronger than flash and was just styling a little bit. that is probably not what was happening but that's what it felt like.
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YEah effort just straight up wanted this more than flash. Same story as Korean Air OSL too.
Often that is what sports and esports comes down to. Talent is insignificant compared to work “effort” and in this case flash didn’t have the energy to play at the high level required in a finals.
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Bisutopia19256 Posts
On November 13 2018 20:16 iopq wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2018 18:14 StarscreamG1 wrote:
It's the end of 2019 and BW and SC2 had never been so interesting. What a time to be alive <3 Have I been in a coma for a year? What's the Bitcoin price now?
Bwahaha. Had to do a double take myself. Also, I demand some Bisu reps since he got out of the army during our coma.
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TLADT24920 Posts
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On November 14 2018 04:29 Yanokabo wrote:
YEah effort just straight up wanted this more than flash. Same story as Korean Air OSL too.
Often that is what sports and esports comes down to. Talent is insignificant compared to work “effort” and in this case flash didn’t have the energy to play at the high level required in a finals.
I don't know how people can say such things with such certainty just by extrapolating from what happens in-game without knowing the players personally or reading an interview.
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United States33429 Posts
On November 14 2018 05:35 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2018 04:29 Yanokabo wrote:
YEah effort just straight up wanted this more than flash. Same story as Korean Air OSL too.
Often that is what sports and esports comes down to. Talent is insignificant compared to work “effort” and in this case flash didn’t have the energy to play at the high level required in a finals. I don't know how people can say such things with such certainty just by extrapolating from what happens in-game without knowing the players personally or reading an interview.
yeah, empty-ass cliches don't serve either player
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EPT
