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[ASL6] Finals Analysis - God is Dead

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[ASL6] Finals Analysis - God is Dead

Text byBigFan
Graphics byv1
November 12th, 2018 01:44 GMT
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ASL6 came to a close approximately 2 weeks ago, and with its conclusion came a shocking result that made headlines across the BW community. That of Flash's defeat at the hands of EffOrt yet again, and the fact that the 1-1-1 was now considered a solved build all thanks to EffOrt's games.

In a highly anticipated finals that went to 5 games, both players threw all they could at each other. It was a night full of mind, bizzare, and solid games. For such deep games, we brought in our expert Ty2 to do an analysis, and recap the games for you guys so make sure to read below for details!

With ASL6 finished, and the coverage concluded, we'd like to thank all our readers for their time and all our contributors for their tiresome effort. Hand in hand, our passion and love for BW can only help the game reach unimaginable heights!



The Ultimate Mind Game
By Ty2

On May 5th, 2016, Flash broadcasted his first Afreeca Brood War stream. Flash's return was a milestone in the era of renewed competition of returning ex-pros in the once small town of amateur StarCraft. Not long after, everyone was quickly reminded of why Flash was considered one of, if not the greatest player. He went on to dominate three consecutive ASLs, and became a permanent fixture in the online rankings at #1.

However, contrary to the name God, in his career, he has had moments of mortality. He's lost in various special events like the ASL Team Battle, the WEGL, and many online events. But when it came to the traditional format that favored days of preparation in between matches, Flash was king and the spotlight of the most prestigious tour, the ASL.

In the finals of that arena, Sea, Shine, and then Hero lost in one-sided series, cementing Flash's grip on the ASL. The only exception was losing to Snow in ASL5 in the quarterfinals, where the map pool was unabashedly skewed in Protoss' favor.

Joining the lineage of challengers was EffOrt, Zerg prodigy. His road to the finals stage was plagued with doubt, but bore an ember of hope as the next contender to dethrone Flash. His tourney run was surreal, guided by fate, and clouded by mystique, beginning with the shattering of his Ro16 curse. When faced by tougher obstacles each step of the way, EffOrt refused to fall. He made a fool of top Protoss Rain, and claimed a close victory over second-best Terran, Last.

The one question overshadowing Effort's chances though was how Effort would answer the 1-1-1. To recap briefly, in the latest game changing trend, Flash innovated his own version of the 1-1-1. His respectable 70% ZvT winrate became a monstrous near 90% winrate. Among the worst victims was EffOrt, at 5 wins and 46 losses, a winrate of 10.2%. The apocalyptic advent of the 1-1-1 would also mark the beginning of EffOrt's heightened interest in UMS maps, leaving a bad impression.

However, just like in the 2010 Korean Air OSL, EffOrt in a meeting woven by fate would once again face Flash only to show Gods can bleed. The following analysis is the story of how EffOrt shattered Flash's reign over the ex-pro scene and made history as the first Zerg in 8 years to beat Flash in a Bo5.

Game 1 on Autobahn:
In the beginning of the game, EffOrt opens with one of the fastest possible gases after hatch, an 11 gas, followed by 10 pool, tailor-fit for the 1-1-1. Usually Zergs would prefer the more macro-oriented 12 gas, but EffOrt's 11 gas allows him to get extremely fast Zergling speed and lair at the same time. Most importantly, the timing window where vulture speed hasn't finished yet, and lings are at the Terran's natural is extended from 15 seconds to 30 seconds compared to the 12 gas variant.

Flash himself likely sends an SCV at the latest time to account for this timing, where the lair is just 5 seconds earlier than a 12-gas. The subtlety, while small, is one significant enough to acknowledge

Flash meanwhile goes for a similarly low economy opener, a fast 10 barracks, followed by 10 gas. Cutting SCVs so early for a tech-heavy opening emphasizes the much faster 14 supply factory (as opposed to 16 supply). The opening feels left open to comfortably respond to the speedlings. He even goes machine shop first to emphasize faster vulture tech.

Flash already uncovers EffOrt's hand by scouting two spawning lings in addition to the four already chasing the SCV. If a Zerg makes any more than four lings, that's a probable sign of speedling aggression. That's because Zerg wants to maximize drone count, and four lings is more than enough to deny vulture runbys.

Flash responds accordingly by camping his vultures at home, not bothering to scout or risk kiting lings. With all cards uncovered, the only factor left was execution, where EffOrt excelled, and Flash utterly failed. The mismicro saw Flash's vultures at a standstill, turn around awkwardly in an attempt to hit lings, then try to retreat, all the while being decelerated. A swift loss follows, displaying EffOrt's superior unit control in small scale micro.

[image loading]

In an alternate explanation, Flash could have possibly mind gamed himself. He may have thought EffOrt would only make a few lings to cause him to overreact. When the ling numbers were unveiled though, Flash was a deer in the headlights.

Game 2 on Transistor:
Flash opens an unusual 11 barracks, 14 supply, then 14 barracks, instead of going two straight barracks. In the case EffOrt spawned in the bottom right and the overlord scouted him, Flash would want to show two supply depots before EffOrt has to retreat the overlord. This is to make his opener appear like a rax expand. Flash goes to lengths to hide the 2nd barracks on the opposite side of his base, and the SCV scout checks to see if EffOrt will be sending a drone scout in the case that he spawned center left. This is because the overlord scout pattern is counter clockwise, and drone scouts will go clockwise.

Here, Flash's play in this game is focused on abusing EffOrt's lack of information, and to hit a timing before EffOrt's 12 pool 12 gas mutas are out. 12 pool and gas is predictable due to its popularity on Transistor due to transistor's short air rush distance favoring mutas.

Flash sweeps the area to deter overlords from scouting his natural to see an expansion before retreating to defend against lings. EffOrt, upon sneaking an overlord, checks for the time a command center would have just started if it was a 1-1-1 build. Upon seeing none, EffOrt knows something is up.

One ling scout even sees the marines and medics en-route, and EffOrt is prepared with two sunkens in advance. He even attempts a blocking evo chamber, but before he can, Flash moves in, killing EffOrt before his mutas can spawn in time. A 3rd sunken here would've likely delayed the mutas greatly, and EffOrt's slightly late evo chamber was the tipping point to give Flash a win. EffOrt was already invested in making mutas, and probably felt confident in the defensive ramp leading to the debacle.

[image loading]

Game 3 on Circuit Breaker:
Here due to EffOrt being situated in the top right and Flash in the bottom left, EffOrt's choice of speed before lair off of 3 hatcheries is significantly hampered. EffOrt's stubborn play works anyway when he traps two vults with vulture speed already completed, a heavy execution error by Flash probably due to nerves. Still, Flash is not in a bad position due to EffOrt's heavy investment. The burrow mostly fell flat, because there weren't two sizable burrowed groups that EffOrt could cycle unburrowing with to annoy Flash.

EffOrt's followup hydras was a nice touch, probably to give Flash uncertainty as to his followup and to defend vs. the wraith which will kill overlords. He also did the same followup vs. Last, but had actual upgraded hydras. The mutas catch Flash's wraith, which scouted late, off guard, making the defense a lot harder.

Unfortunately, EffOrt flubs his muta control, letting an irradiate kill a lot of mutas. This prevents EffOrt from controlling the science vessel numbers, and also gives Flash an opportunity to attack. EffOrt I guess wasn't expecting enough energy for a second irradiate, or had a panicked moment. Flash's desperate push with marines, a siege tank, and vulture succeeds in forcing EffOrt to continue making lings instead of drones.

Despite looking okay for EffOrt, Flash's science vessel count, the very deadly part of the 1-1-1, starts to snowball. The cost of losing those early mutas, and also having a slowed down economy is starting to kick in. Soon enough, EffOrt in a war of attrition is slowly whittled down despite the fact that his hydralurk composition is meant to respond to SK Terran.

Game 4 on Sylphid:
EffOrt in the center left opens 12 hatch, 11 pool, then 10 gas. Most players going for a 2 hatch lair, especially for the style EffOrt goes, would opt for gas first. However, Effort is most likely wary of 8 rax, and does a more safer opening at the cost of slightly slower tech.

Flash's SCV, which scouts for the tech and if there are more lings, ends up dying before scouting the hydra den or what pops from the eggs. The uncertainty keeps Flash at home and forces him to scan EffOrt's natural. The scan reveals no morphing, or just finished mutalisks, guaranteeing EffOrt has gone lurkers. It also shows how many lings EffOrt has gone by showing two just morphing drones with only two already mining ones. A healthier drone count would've had around 6 already mining. Flash even makes a forward bunker, knowing EffOrt is planning a backstab. He tries to win with one decisive maneuver, attacking with his marines and medics while relying on the two bunkers to defend the backstab.

The plan almost comes to fruition until EffOrt backstabs sooner than Flash expects leaving no time to switch out the front bunker's marines w/ just spawned firebats. Flash immediately retreats knowing he could possibly lose. If EffOrt hesitated even for a second, the outcome of the game would be much different. Also, due to scanning EffOrt's natural, Flash's remaining scan is used up, but fails to kill the lurkers, letting them do more damage.

[image loading]

Firebats left out in the open

Flash having to rebuild medics from scratch also makes stimming and future engagements worse. EffOrt's reinforcing lurkers pick off Flash's bio which desperately want to prevent the contain. Eventually Flash falls to the swarm push, his tanks too delayed to make a difference.

Game 5 on Autobahn:
Going full circle, both players alter their play, adapting to and putting twists from game one. In that regard, EffOrt completely mind games Flash into over-defending. Flash, so paranoid of another speedling attack, ends up opting out of the command center before starport, and doesn't go CC altogether.

Meanwhile, EffOrt, playing Flash like a fiddle has gone for the more macro-oriented 12 gas, then 11 pool. His play in game 1 has put Flash in a far more uncomfortable mentality, forcing an incredibly drastic change. Flash more determined to scout this time around, goes vulture before machine shop, letting him get some ling kills. Then, in an apparent repeat of the first game, EffOrt does a ling attack, but only makes a few to force out some defense, and keep Flash in his main.

Planning in advance for Flash to do a speed vulture move-out, EffOrt's backstab delays the bunker and lets his followup hydras kill the bunker off, further delaying Flash's natural. Still stuck on one base, Flash's dropship is anticipated by well positioned hydras.

EffOrt's followup mutas, another great transition, put Flash on the backfoot while EffOrt happily drones. The mutas are helped all the more by Flash's lack of an ebay, mistakenly making two science facilities probably from being tilted. Further SCV kills continue to hamper Flash's economy despite killing most of the mutas with cloaked wraiths.

EffOrt's seamless transition into crazy Zerg works wonders when he takes a favorable engagement versus Flash's siege tank push. With 0/0 upgrades vs. +1 carapace, Flash's push is quickly done in by ultras, before his natural meets the same fate. Flash's demise is the result of his failed aggression and massively delayed natural, courtesy of EffOrt's mind games pushing Flash into a mental corner. In the final and fifth deciding game, EffOrt claims victory.

[image loading]

Subverting Flash's domain of the late game, EffOrt instead struck Flash's Achilles heel, employing mind games and superior unit control to find victory again. Over 8 years have passed since a Zerg beat Flash in a Bo5 in an offline tournament, and today EffOrt is the last and first since to do so.


Writers: Ty2, Bigfan
Graphics: v1
Writers: Bigfan
Photo Credits: AfreecaTV
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Former BW EiC"Watch Bakemonogatari or I will kill you." -Toad, April 18th, 2017
JieXian
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Malaysia4677 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-11-12 02:03:45
November 12 2018 01:45 GMT
#2
The one question overshadowing Effort's chances though was how Effort would answer the 1-1-1.

Ty2 I think you might have forgotten that it was out of the question™

:D

Thanks for the analysis, I appreciate the games even more now!
Please send me a PM of any song you like that I most probably never heard of! I am looking for people to chat about writing and producing music | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noD-bsOcxuU |
yubo56
Profile Joined May 2014
687 Posts
November 12 2018 01:46 GMT
#3
Over 8 years have passed since a Zerg beat Flash in a Bo5 in an offline tournament, and today EffOrt is the last and first since to do so.


This blows my mind. Congrats to EffOrt again!!
Jung Yoon Jong fighting, even after retirement! Feel better soon.
XenOsky
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Chile2269 Posts
November 12 2018 02:39 GMT
#4
EffOrt = Nietzsche?
StarCraft & Audax Italiano.
Yanokabo
Profile Joined October 2018
268 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-11-12 02:46:20
November 12 2018 02:46 GMT
#5
‘‘Tis true the god hath died. Hail Mary full of grace blessed is thee and blessed art thou among women and the fruit of thy womb Jesus. Amen.
DropBear
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Australia4353 Posts
November 12 2018 03:13 GMT
#6
Nice writeup lads
Sucker for nostalgia
TelecoM
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States10671 Posts
November 12 2018 03:50 GMT
#7
Nice writeup! but God isn't Dead what a savage title lol T_T

EffOrt is just so gosu lol
AKA: TelecoM[WHITE] Protoss fighting
RxMidnight
Profile Joined July 2014
United States251 Posts
November 12 2018 04:12 GMT
#8
Effort is the atheist zerg.
HaruHaru
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States988 Posts
November 12 2018 04:43 GMT
#9
thanks for the writeup!!
Long live BroodWar!
Waxangel
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
United States33362 Posts
November 12 2018 05:35 GMT
#10
died for our sins, again
AdministratorHey HP can you redo everything youve ever done because i have a small complaint?
zerglingling
Profile Joined April 2018
131 Posts
November 12 2018 05:45 GMT
#11
I thought that Flash misread that natural scan on Sylphid.
Dante08
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
Singapore4126 Posts
November 12 2018 06:00 GMT
#12
Best Broodwar storyline in a long time. Long live Brood War!!
prosatan
Profile Joined September 2009
Romania8010 Posts
November 12 2018 06:35 GMT
#13
RxMidnight : Effort is the atheist zerg.

Waxangel : died for our sins, again

Man I am dying hahahahaaha! GOOD WRITEUP AND GOOD COMMENTS !!
Lee JaeDong Fighting! The only church that illuminates is the one that burns.
JieXian
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Malaysia4677 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-11-12 06:54:15
November 12 2018 06:53 GMT
#14
On November 12 2018 14:45 zerglingling wrote:
I thought that Flash misread that natural scan on Sylphid.


How so? Flash built an additional bunker in anticipation of the lurkers didn't he?
Please send me a PM of any song you like that I most probably never heard of! I am looking for people to chat about writing and producing music | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noD-bsOcxuU |
Zaibakk
Profile Joined May 2017
101 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-11-12 08:46:51
November 12 2018 08:46 GMT
#15
Thank you for your analysis
Turbovolver
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Australia2394 Posts
November 12 2018 08:53 GMT
#16
Really nice write-up. Thanks!
The original Bogus fan.
zerglingling
Profile Joined April 2018
131 Posts
November 12 2018 10:23 GMT
#17
On November 12 2018 15:53 JieXian wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 12 2018 14:45 zerglingling wrote:
I thought that Flash misread that natural scan on Sylphid.


How so? Flash built an additional bunker in anticipation of the lurkers didn't he?

You're right, that couldn't have been a muta reaction. But the moveout still didn't feel right, maybe he thought it's a slow drop over the wall and went to check?
mierin
Profile Joined August 2010
United States4943 Posts
November 12 2018 11:31 GMT
#18
The title of this thread made me listen to that Black Sabbath song, lol. Good writeup!
JD, Stork, Calm, Hyuk Fighting!
Ziggy
Profile Blog Joined June 2013
South Korea2105 Posts
November 12 2018 11:38 GMT
#19
Ozzy, you can't sing 'God is dead'!
WriterDefeating a sandwich only makes it tastier. @imjustziggy
JieXian
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Malaysia4677 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-11-12 16:21:52
November 12 2018 16:20 GMT
#20
On November 12 2018 19:23 zerglingling wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 12 2018 15:53 JieXian wrote:
On November 12 2018 14:45 zerglingling wrote:
I thought that Flash misread that natural scan on Sylphid.


How so? Flash built an additional bunker in anticipation of the lurkers didn't he?

You're right, that couldn't have been a muta reaction. But the moveout still didn't feel right, maybe he thought it's a slow drop over the wall and went to check?


Perhaps, but the standard response to a lurker opening is to move out so that the lurkers do not have free reign to burrow right at the natural, similar to late game TvZ where you need to move out to slow down the defiler before he gets to place dark swarms at your natural.
Please send me a PM of any song you like that I most probably never heard of! I am looking for people to chat about writing and producing music | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noD-bsOcxuU |
arbiter_md
Profile Joined February 2008
Moldova1219 Posts
November 12 2018 19:01 GMT
#21
On November 13 2018 01:20 JieXian wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 12 2018 19:23 zerglingling wrote:
On November 12 2018 15:53 JieXian wrote:
On November 12 2018 14:45 zerglingling wrote:
I thought that Flash misread that natural scan on Sylphid.


How so? Flash built an additional bunker in anticipation of the lurkers didn't he?

You're right, that couldn't have been a muta reaction. But the moveout still didn't feel right, maybe he thought it's a slow drop over the wall and went to check?


Perhaps, but the standard response to a lurker opening is to move out so that the lurkers do not have free reign to burrow right at the natural, similar to late game TvZ where you need to move out to slow down the defiler before he gets to place dark swarms at your natural.


Exactly, and I'm surprised nobody mentioned how crucial was that effort quickly killed the mnm group Flash had out in the game 4. With that army out in the field, Flash would have had the options to both, cut the reinforcements for contain and attack the contain from two sides to break it early. It is absolutely a must for terran to have some map control before the defiler is out.
The copyright of this post belongs solely to me. Nobody else, not teamliquid, not greetech and not even blizzard have any share of this copyright. You can copy, distribute, use in commercial purposes the content of this post or parts of it freely.
BigFan
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
TLADT24920 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-11-12 21:06:58
November 12 2018 21:06 GMT
#22
On November 13 2018 04:01 arbiter_md wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 13 2018 01:20 JieXian wrote:
On November 12 2018 19:23 zerglingling wrote:
On November 12 2018 15:53 JieXian wrote:
On November 12 2018 14:45 zerglingling wrote:
I thought that Flash misread that natural scan on Sylphid.


How so? Flash built an additional bunker in anticipation of the lurkers didn't he?

You're right, that couldn't have been a muta reaction. But the moveout still didn't feel right, maybe he thought it's a slow drop over the wall and went to check?


Perhaps, but the standard response to a lurker opening is to move out so that the lurkers do not have free reign to burrow right at the natural, similar to late game TvZ where you need to move out to slow down the defiler before he gets to place dark swarms at your natural.


Exactly, and I'm surprised nobody mentioned how crucial was that effort quickly killed the mnm group Flash had out in the game 4. With that army out in the field, Flash would have had the options to both, cut the reinforcements for contain and attack the contain from two sides to break it early. It is absolutely a must for terran to have some map control before the defiler is out.

Indeed. Flash's response in game 4 was spot on. Only thing he should've done differently imo is realize that he never killed that OL from EffOrt so EffOrt could try to run lurkers into his exp or do a backstab or whatever. Aka, EffOrt had vision of any moveouts and could adjust his plan. I think if he was more careful, and checked out the third base area etc... he may have gotten wind of it and saved his first group. That group is just so vital in keeping some map control, and cutting reinforcements that I typically feel I lost the game if I get lurker contained after losing it.

Flash scanned, and didn't see spire in exp so he anticipated lurkers. Got a second bunker, moved out to intercept and kite etc... It was playing it by the book, just didn't anticipate that lurker ambush (if you can call it that) and then EffOrt had a great zergling move with the surround, killed almost everything. From there, Flash was contained, and could do nothing except try to macro and tech for a break.
Former BW EiC"Watch Bakemonogatari or I will kill you." -Toad, April 18th, 2017
HansenZ
Profile Joined September 2017
49 Posts
November 12 2018 21:59 GMT
#23
Love the play from Effort! He is probably the only Zerg who can defeat Flash!
Letmelose
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
Korea (South)3227 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-11-13 00:15:19
November 13 2018 00:04 GMT
#24
On November 13 2018 06:06 BigFan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 13 2018 04:01 arbiter_md wrote:
On November 13 2018 01:20 JieXian wrote:
On November 12 2018 19:23 zerglingling wrote:
On November 12 2018 15:53 JieXian wrote:
On November 12 2018 14:45 zerglingling wrote:
I thought that Flash misread that natural scan on Sylphid.


How so? Flash built an additional bunker in anticipation of the lurkers didn't he?

You're right, that couldn't have been a muta reaction. But the moveout still didn't feel right, maybe he thought it's a slow drop over the wall and went to check?


Perhaps, but the standard response to a lurker opening is to move out so that the lurkers do not have free reign to burrow right at the natural, similar to late game TvZ where you need to move out to slow down the defiler before he gets to place dark swarms at your natural.


Exactly, and I'm surprised nobody mentioned how crucial was that effort quickly killed the mnm group Flash had out in the game 4. With that army out in the field, Flash would have had the options to both, cut the reinforcements for contain and attack the contain from two sides to break it early. It is absolutely a must for terran to have some map control before the defiler is out.

Indeed. Flash's response in game 4 was spot on. Only thing he should've done differently imo is realize that he never killed that OL from EffOrt so EffOrt could try to run lurkers into his exp or do a backstab or whatever. Aka, EffOrt had vision of any moveouts and could adjust his plan. I think if he was more careful, and checked out the third base area etc... he may have gotten wind of it and saved his first group. That group is just so vital in keeping some map control, and cutting reinforcements that I typically feel I lost the game if I get lurker contained after losing it.

Flash scanned, and didn't see spire in exp so he anticipated lurkers. Got a second bunker, moved out to intercept and kite etc... It was playing it by the book, just didn't anticipate that lurker ambush (if you can call it that) and then EffOrt had a great zergling move with the surround, killed almost everything. From there, Flash was contained, and could do nothing except try to macro and tech for a break.


I think Flash's execution was quite sloppy throughout the entire series. While his decision to move out with his bionic army was the best course of action at the time, his execution of the play itself was absolutely horrid. He stimmed his marines into the open field giving himself multiple opportunities of a micro-management outplay potential, and instead of kiting down the enemy zerglings while avoiding lurkers, he stimmed into the zerglings from 30hp to 20hp without medic back-up, and lost his entire troop immediately, dooming himself. That specific moment wasn't a great micro-management outplay on EffOrt's part, it was Flash throwing his only hope away with shitty micro-management.

+ Show Spoiler +


In my opinion, with players that play to win hard like EffOrt, you are given multiple opportunities to escape with your execution, because EffOrt tries to win on all fronts, decision making, multi-tasking, and micro-management, leaving his opponents a window to outplay him should they rise up to the occasion because EffOrt on form plays as if he cannot be breached on any front, with the smallest change in detail potentially wrecking him. That day, I didn't particularly get the feeling that Flash was ready to beat down EffOrt mechanically.
TL+ Member
BigFan
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
TLADT24920 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-11-13 01:52:02
November 13 2018 01:50 GMT
#25
Oh don't get me wrong, I was floored when I saw Flash lost his first army without killing a lurker or even much lings. The micro itself was just bad, and I have no clue what he was thinking. Guess he got nervous, and reacted too hastily. I didn't realize he double stimmed though. That's huge because losing another 10 hp before he even did anything means his marines were at half health already. As for the EffOrt part, my thoughts were that his lings moved and spread well enough to get a nice surround. With 10 hp less for each marine, that surround made that much of a difference imo.

My main point was that his response overall was proper, aka the second bunker, the moveout etc... but execution-wise, he failed it badly. Similar to that vulture surround in game 1 though if I remember correctly, he also didn't have speed so he would've gotten them surround soon enough with the small main. This of course assumes that the speed upgrades still has a fair bit of time to go.

As for EffOrt's playstyle, I think Flash was nervous going into the finals. EffOrt kept talking tough, and I'm pretty sure Flash still remembers that OSL from years past. If he relaxed and played as he normally does, I doubt he would've lost more than a game at best (would've won game 4 and won 3-1 imo).
Former BW EiC"Watch Bakemonogatari or I will kill you." -Toad, April 18th, 2017
JieXian
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Malaysia4677 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-11-13 08:33:17
November 13 2018 08:30 GMT
#26
On November 13 2018 10:50 BigFan wrote:
As for EffOrt's playstyle, I think Flash was nervous going into the finals. EffOrt kept talking tough, and I'm pretty sure Flash still remembers that OSL from years past. If he relaxed and played as he normally does, I doubt he would've lost more than a game at best (would've won game 4 and won 3-1 imo).


We're not out of the loop, everybody already knows you were certain that Flash would have won 3 games out of 4

Too bad Effort's game that day was out of the ordinary, and he brought Flash out of his comfort zone.
Please send me a PM of any song you like that I most probably never heard of! I am looking for people to chat about writing and producing music | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noD-bsOcxuU |
Iplaythings
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Denmark9110 Posts
November 13 2018 08:58 GMT
#27
Alien zergs doesnt give a hoot 'bout gods, ggwp effort
In the woods, there lurks..
StarscreamG1
Profile Joined February 2011
Portugal1653 Posts
November 13 2018 09:14 GMT
#28
It's the end of 2019 and BW and SC2 had never been so interesting. What a time to be alive <3
iopq
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States910 Posts
November 13 2018 11:16 GMT
#29
On November 13 2018 18:14 StarscreamG1 wrote:
It's the end of 2019 and BW and SC2 had never been so interesting. What a time to be alive <3

Have I been in a coma for a year? What's the Bitcoin price now?
outscar
Profile Joined September 2014
2832 Posts
November 13 2018 12:07 GMT
#30
Fuck yeah EffOrt! Blew up the God! Alien Zerg is God's N1 nemesis forever!
sunbeams are never made like me...
iFU.pauline
Profile Joined September 2009
France1554 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-11-13 12:14:31
November 13 2018 12:13 GMT
#31
On November 13 2018 10:50 BigFan wrote:
Oh don't get me wrong, I was floored when I saw Flash lost his first army without killing a lurker or even much lings. The micro itself was just bad, and I have no clue what he was thinking. Guess he got nervous, and reacted too hastily. I didn't realize he double stimmed though. That's huge because losing another 10 hp before he even did anything means his marines were at half health already. As for the EffOrt part, my thoughts were that his lings moved and spread well enough to get a nice surround. With 10 hp less for each marine, that surround made that much of a difference imo.

My main point was that his response overall was proper, aka the second bunker, the moveout etc... but execution-wise, he failed it badly. Similar to that vulture surround in game 1 though if I remember correctly, he also didn't have speed so he would've gotten them surround soon enough with the small main. This of course assumes that the speed upgrades still has a fair bit of time to go.

As for EffOrt's playstyle, I think Flash was nervous going into the finals. EffOrt kept talking tough, and I'm pretty sure Flash still remembers that OSL from years past. If he relaxed and played as he normally does, I doubt he would've lost more than a game at best (would've won game 4 and won 3-1 imo).


I don't believe a second in the nervous part, Flash looked pretty confident all games except when he lost game 4 where you could really read his face "shit this is happening again". Psychological warfare was huge during this series and Flash clearly lost on that ground, and even considering this, he played well game 5 and a lot of zerg would died to that dropship, even I felt this was the GG move for Flash but EffOrt handled it almost perfectly, his timing was terrific.

Of course this has nothing to do about being nervous, as if EffOrt wasn't nervous? This is about being better. EffOrt can rise his level to the extreme when he needs to, I have never seen a guy displaying so much confidence, his click is fast, precise, his decision making and mind game outstanding. And this ability to always stay cool and play better in dire situation. Do you guys realize at what level this zerg is playing? I don't know. Sure, Flash is more consistent in the long run but EffOrt can go one step beyond. And this leads to a 3/0 for him in a bo5 final on a 8 years timelapse. Perfect it is, don't you think so? Of course you don't.
No coward soul is mine, No trembler in the world's storm-troubled sphere, I see Heaven's glories shine, And Faith shines equal arming me from Fear
Cele
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Germany4016 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-11-13 14:32:42
November 13 2018 13:52 GMT
#32
Let's just agree the better player [on that day] won. It is as simple as that. Going into the rabbit hole of bringing up wrist pain, nerves, nervous bowels or w/e if your favorite player loses is not the way to go.
Broodwar for life!
JieXian
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Malaysia4677 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-11-14 20:48:31
November 13 2018 16:13 GMT
#33
On November 13 2018 22:52 Cele wrote:
Let's just agree the better player [on that day] won. It is as simple as that. Going into the rabbit hole of bringing up wrist pain, nerves, nervous bowels or w/e if your favorite player loses is not the way to go.


Yes I think chalking it up to "tough talk" influencing Flash an assumption that should have been not be made.

(Edited because original post was not fair to BigFan upon rereading it)
Please send me a PM of any song you like that I most probably never heard of! I am looking for people to chat about writing and producing music | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noD-bsOcxuU |
Cele
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Germany4016 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-11-13 18:36:20
November 13 2018 18:35 GMT
#34
On November 14 2018 01:13 JieXian wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 13 2018 22:52 Cele wrote:
Let's just agree the better player [on that day] won. It is as simple as that. Going into the rabbit hole of bringing up wrist pain, nerves, nervous bowels or w/e if your favorite player loses is not the way to go.


Yes, and chalking it up to "tough talk" influencing Flash? He's Flash for god's sake. People should acknowledge the level of thought and skill displayed by both players out of respect. Like Pauline said, Effort's defense in G5 was outstanding, any other Zerg might have died there.

I find Mr Fan's comment to be out of line and highly questionable.


I don't agree. It's well known bigfan is, well, a big fan of Flash. He also acknowledget the level of play shown by effort. I think he sometimes feels the pain as a fan of Flash heavy when he loses, which is perfectly normal. People have their private player bias like you and me, even when they are editor in chief (;

If it was Bisu, i might be the one chalking it up to something but not his opponent!
Broodwar for life!
Alejandrisha
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States6565 Posts
November 13 2018 18:46 GMT
#35
even though effort lost game 3, i felt he was HELLBENT on winning the next two games and so he did. he just seemed to much stronger than flash and was just styling a little bit. that is probably not what was happening but that's what it felt like.
get rich or die mining
TL+ Member
Yanokabo
Profile Joined October 2018
268 Posts
November 13 2018 19:29 GMT
#36
YEah effort just straight up wanted this more than flash. Same story as Korean Air OSL too.
Often that is what sports and esports comes down to. Talent is insignificant compared to work “effort” and in this case flash didn’t have the energy to play at the high level required in a finals.
BisuDagger
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Bisutopia19231 Posts
November 13 2018 19:32 GMT
#37
On November 13 2018 20:16 iopq wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 13 2018 18:14 StarscreamG1 wrote:
It's the end of 2019 and BW and SC2 had never been so interesting. What a time to be alive <3

Have I been in a coma for a year? What's the Bitcoin price now?

Bwahaha. Had to do a double take myself. Also, I demand some Bisu reps since he got out of the army during our coma.
ModeratorFormer Afreeca Starleague Caster: http://afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2
BigFan
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
TLADT24920 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-11-14 19:24:56
November 13 2018 19:59 GMT
#38
oops
Former BW EiC"Watch Bakemonogatari or I will kill you." -Toad, April 18th, 2017
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10141 Posts
November 13 2018 20:35 GMT
#39
On November 14 2018 04:29 Yanokabo wrote:
YEah effort just straight up wanted this more than flash. Same story as Korean Air OSL too.
Often that is what sports and esports comes down to. Talent is insignificant compared to work “effort” and in this case flash didn’t have the energy to play at the high level required in a finals.

I don't know how people can say such things with such certainty just by extrapolating from what happens in-game without knowing the players personally or reading an interview.
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
Waxangel
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
United States33362 Posts
November 13 2018 21:56 GMT
#40
On November 14 2018 05:35 Jealous wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 14 2018 04:29 Yanokabo wrote:
YEah effort just straight up wanted this more than flash. Same story as Korean Air OSL too.
Often that is what sports and esports comes down to. Talent is insignificant compared to work “effort” and in this case flash didn’t have the energy to play at the high level required in a finals.

I don't know how people can say such things with such certainty just by extrapolating from what happens in-game without knowing the players personally or reading an interview.


yeah, empty-ass cliches don't serve either player
AdministratorHey HP can you redo everything youve ever done because i have a small complaint?
Ota Solgryn
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Denmark2011 Posts
November 14 2018 11:56 GMT
#41
I, for one, also really dislike the way this Flash loss is handled, specifically by BigFan. If it was just a random user I would have let it go long time ago as a fan of Flash trying to find excuses why his player lost. Bad play in game 4, nerves, whatever.

Kind of the same feeling I always have had whenever JD play against Flash. JD always "seems" to be making bad decisions and mismicro, but as has been proven Flash makes him do this because Flash knows how to counter JD and make him look bad. But I am a fanboy of JD, so I have had a really hard time acknowledging the fact that Flash just plays better than him, even though to me it very often seems like JD makes mistakes against Flash.



ihasaKAROT: "Wish people would stop wasting their lives on finding flaws in others"
JieXian
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Malaysia4677 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-11-14 15:52:31
November 14 2018 15:52 GMT
#42
On November 14 2018 03:35 Cele wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 14 2018 01:13 JieXian wrote:
On November 13 2018 22:52 Cele wrote:
Let's just agree the better player [on that day] won. It is as simple as that. Going into the rabbit hole of bringing up wrist pain, nerves, nervous bowels or w/e if your favorite player loses is not the way to go.


Yes, and chalking it up to "tough talk" influencing Flash? He's Flash for god's sake. People should acknowledge the level of thought and skill displayed by both players out of respect. Like Pauline said, Effort's defense in G5 was outstanding, any other Zerg might have died there.

I find Mr Fan's comment to be out of line and highly questionable.


I don't agree. It's well known bigfan is, well, a big fan of Flash. He also acknowledget the level of play shown by effort. I think he sometimes feels the pain as a fan of Flash heavy when he loses, which is perfectly normal. People have their private player bias like you and me, even when they are editor in chief (;

If it was Bisu, i might be the one chalking it up to something but not his opponent!

On November 14 2018 04:59 BigFan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 14 2018 01:13 JieXian wrote:
On November 13 2018 22:52 Cele wrote:
Let's just agree the better player [on that day] won. It is as simple as that. Going into the rabbit hole of bringing up wrist pain, nerves, nervous bowels or w/e if your favorite player loses is not the way to go.


Yes, and chalking it up to "tough talk" influencing Flash? He's Flash for god's sake. People should acknowledge the level of thought and skill displayed by both players out of respect. Like Pauline said, Effort's defense in G5 was outstanding, any other Zerg might have died there.

I find Mr Fan's comment to be out of line and highly questionable.

you should go back and read my comment on this mate. I respect EffOrt for the skills shown, but it was clear that Flash was nervous as well, and that double science facility proves it. EffOrt got into Flash's head by the time game 5 came around, and it showed. I don't personally have a problem with game 5, I think EffOrt played well to counter what Flash threw at him, and Flash was already defeated mentally. Having said that, game 4's execution was terrible from Flash's side, no argument about it. Don't plan to write more on this as I've already wrote a lot as is, so pick at it as you like ^^


Sorry, reading back I should say that the post wasn't that serious an accusation and most of it was a joke to use a particular phrase as many times as I could. I thought my underlining would have communicated it.

Still, please don't state assumptions like "tough talk" influencing Flash unless Flash said it himself. It's true that the entire post wasn't garbage, but imagine if Martin Luther King giving his famous "I have a dream" speech and suddenly talking halfway about having a dream about getting it on with Marylin Monroe.

It affects the entire speech.
Please send me a PM of any song you like that I most probably never heard of! I am looking for people to chat about writing and producing music | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noD-bsOcxuU |
Alpha-NP-
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States1242 Posts
November 14 2018 16:23 GMT
#43
Majority of people thought Flash was invincible which I was okay with. But it was really annoying when I saw everyone saying Jaedong is better than Effort and that Effort had no chance to do well. Those guys are the same caliber so now this result is the proof. People were talking like Effort was a B-teamer. All in all it was very annoying, so this is karma.
BigFan
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
TLADT24920 Posts
November 14 2018 19:24 GMT
#44
On November 14 2018 20:56 Ota Solgryn wrote:
I, for one, also really dislike the way this Flash loss is handled, specifically by BigFan. If it was just a random user I would have let it go long time ago as a fan of Flash trying to find excuses why his player lost. Bad play in game 4, nerves, whatever.

Kind of the same feeling I always have had whenever JD play against Flash. JD always "seems" to be making bad decisions and mismicro, but as has been proven Flash makes him do this because Flash knows how to counter JD and make him look bad. But I am a fanboy of JD, so I have had a really hard time acknowledging the fact that Flash just plays better than him, even though to me it very often seems like JD makes mistakes against Flash.




Well, I am entitled to my opinion like everyone else. Funny part is, I've complimented EffOrt's game in pretty much every single post I've written, since I realize it's not easy to perform against the GOAT, yet somehow speculating that Flash was nervous or that he had subpar execution in a single game out of five somehow made the experience that much worse?

+ Show Spoiler +
First off, congrats to EffOrt on the win.

+ Show Spoiler +
So, yes, the victory was well deserved, but in some games, it felt like Flash didn't play like himself. Maybe he was a bit nervous, felt like it when watching the interview early on. He also kept sticking to the same idea. He knows that EffOrt knows this, and kept going at it. The Flash I know wouldn't try to be that predictive imo... Anyways, congrats to him again. Hopefully he doesn't fade away like he did after VANT.

+ Show Spoiler +
I respect EffOrt for the skills shown, but it was clear that Flash was nervous as well, and that double science facility proves it.


At this point, I'm ducking out of this conversation. People are free to believe what they like. Seeing as Flash will be going to the military soon, and we've been hearing the whole Tesagi talk pop up again, this was a decent end to quiet things down again.The next test will be to see what EffOrt does next, and if he can maintain his form.

On November 15 2018 00:52 JieXian wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 14 2018 03:35 Cele wrote:
On November 14 2018 01:13 JieXian wrote:
On November 13 2018 22:52 Cele wrote:
Let's just agree the better player [on that day] won. It is as simple as that. Going into the rabbit hole of bringing up wrist pain, nerves, nervous bowels or w/e if your favorite player loses is not the way to go.


Yes, and chalking it up to "tough talk" influencing Flash? He's Flash for god's sake. People should acknowledge the level of thought and skill displayed by both players out of respect. Like Pauline said, Effort's defense in G5 was outstanding, any other Zerg might have died there.

I find Mr Fan's comment to be out of line and highly questionable.


I don't agree. It's well known bigfan is, well, a big fan of Flash. He also acknowledget the level of play shown by effort. I think he sometimes feels the pain as a fan of Flash heavy when he loses, which is perfectly normal. People have their private player bias like you and me, even when they are editor in chief (;

If it was Bisu, i might be the one chalking it up to something but not his opponent!

Show nested quote +
On November 14 2018 04:59 BigFan wrote:
On November 14 2018 01:13 JieXian wrote:
On November 13 2018 22:52 Cele wrote:
Let's just agree the better player [on that day] won. It is as simple as that. Going into the rabbit hole of bringing up wrist pain, nerves, nervous bowels or w/e if your favorite player loses is not the way to go.


Yes, and chalking it up to "tough talk" influencing Flash? He's Flash for god's sake. People should acknowledge the level of thought and skill displayed by both players out of respect. Like Pauline said, Effort's defense in G5 was outstanding, any other Zerg might have died there.

I find Mr Fan's comment to be out of line and highly questionable.

you should go back and read my comment on this mate. I respect EffOrt for the skills shown, but it was clear that Flash was nervous as well, and that double science facility proves it. EffOrt got into Flash's head by the time game 5 came around, and it showed. I don't personally have a problem with game 5, I think EffOrt played well to counter what Flash threw at him, and Flash was already defeated mentally. Having said that, game 4's execution was terrible from Flash's side, no argument about it. Don't plan to write more on this as I've already wrote a lot as is, so pick at it as you like ^^


Sorry, reading back I should say that the post wasn't that serious an accusation and most of it was a joke to use a particular phrase as many times as I could. I thought my underlining would have communicated it.

Still, please don't state assumptions like "tough talk" influencing Flash unless Flash said it himself. It's true that the entire post wasn't garbage, but imagine if Martin Luther King giving his famous "I have a dream" speech and suddenly talking halfway about having a dream about getting it on with Marylin Monroe.

It affects the entire speech.

Fair enough, remove the tough talk stuff if you like. It was merely a quick comment that I made. From my perspective, and yes I'm speculating, Flash seemed nervous facing EffOrt, more so than usual. Whether that started affecting him later, or earlier is anyone's guess, but it was in full swing by the end.
Former BW EiC"Watch Bakemonogatari or I will kill you." -Toad, April 18th, 2017
Jragon
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia1471 Posts
November 15 2018 07:07 GMT
#45
Has Flash done a stream analysis of the games as he often does? Any link if so?
"Bisu is just too good." - Jaedong (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=218995) "Bisu hyung's play is just too good" - Flash (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=225861)
JieXian
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Malaysia4677 Posts
November 15 2018 07:19 GMT
#46
I don't know about Flash but Jaedong did some commentary


I don't understand korean though.
Please send me a PM of any song you like that I most probably never heard of! I am looking for people to chat about writing and producing music | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noD-bsOcxuU |
Kurao
Profile Joined April 2018
215 Posts
November 15 2018 12:42 GMT
#47
Immense analysis, love the dramatic Nietzschean tone. I think it really makes for a great storyline that a player like EffOrt who hasn't had the biggest success in the post-KeSpa era is still, after a decade, the achilles heel for the 3-time ASL champion and greatest of all time.
Kurao
Profile Joined April 2018
215 Posts
November 15 2018 12:43 GMT
#48
On November 15 2018 16:19 JieXian wrote:
I don't know about Flash but Jaedong did some commentary https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiBxE52etKo

I don't understand korean though.

JD is really into it at the start lol
Dazed.
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3301 Posts
November 15 2018 17:19 GMT
#49
I dont think flash coming in with a single game plan is really all that surprising-- hes done it before, notably going 14cc three times in a row against Jaedongs 9 pool, for instance. The ultimate weapon glitches sometimes, or so went the joke.
Never say Die! ||| Fight you? No, I want to kill you.
figq
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
12519 Posts
November 17 2018 08:13 GMT
#50
Flash underwent serious arm surgery and was away from playing while recovering. I don't believe he's physically quite the same since, unfortunately. If that never happened, I'm convinced he would still be untouchable god tier. He deserves tons of respect that he can still make it to the very top after having undergone that.
If you stand next to my head, you can hear the ocean. - Day[9]
-visnu-
Profile Joined April 2009
Australia149 Posts
November 17 2018 13:25 GMT
#51
On November 12 2018 11:39 XenOsky wrote:
EffOrt = Nietzsche?


Jordan B Peterson.
letian
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Germany4221 Posts
November 17 2018 19:20 GMT
#52
Thank you for analysis. I am just missing the explanation of how did Effort solve 1-1-1? So was it mind gaming and early aggression to put Flash into uncomfortable mental spot?
JieXian
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Malaysia4677 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-11-17 19:54:10
November 17 2018 19:51 GMT
#53
On November 17 2018 22:25 -visnu- wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 12 2018 11:39 XenOsky wrote:
EffOrt = Nietzsche?


Jordan B Peterson.


Well it depends on what you mean by "EffOrt" and what you mean by "Nietzsche"! Is EffOrt simply "Kim Jung Woo"? Is he the almighty Alien Zerg or the feminine manifestation of the chaos of Flash's spirituality? If it's the latter, what do you mean by spirituality?

Don't even get me started on Nietzsche, no it's not pronounced Nee-cher like knee jerk. You have to pronounce it well first to give him and most of all yourself the respect you all deserve.

- Jordan B Peterson
Please send me a PM of any song you like that I most probably never heard of! I am looking for people to chat about writing and producing music | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noD-bsOcxuU |
soujiro_
Profile Joined June 2010
Uruguay5195 Posts
November 23 2018 22:45 GMT
#54
thanks for the writeup
ace hwaiting!!
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