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BW Power Rank: October 2018
October 10th, 2018 20:26 GMT
A very eventful September (and first week of October) gives us a lot of games and rank changes that we have to go over! (All rankings are also done after the Ro16 concluded and before the Ro8 begins). #1: Flash ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/prech/files/RaceIcons/Ticon_pastel_Hyde.png) (No Change) First and second on this PR was very close and tough to call. Ultimately, due to historical precedence, I gave the top spot to FlaSh again. More specifically, watching the game that FlaSh lost to Jaedong and Last losing to Mini, FlaSh lost a much closer game than Last, who’s 2 factory should have definitely done much more damage or even outright won the game. FlaSh on the other hand, still retains his top spot in the sponmatches during the month of September, and his games in his Ro16 looked strong. While he did come very close to getting knocked out by Jaedong in their infamous FvJ war, he managed to claw his way back through a crushing game against Light and a solid defense against Jaedong’s relentless pressure. By the way, huge shoutouts to /u/hefeweizenBeers on Reddit for translating FlaSh’s insight into his own games! Definitely a must watch for anyone looking to delve into the mind of the greatest player in history: https://bit.ly/2C2gKBp I also still believe that FlaSh is stronger than Last in the plurality of all matchups which was another reason to have him at the #1 spot. His TvT is stronger (the best TvT of all-time let’s not forget), his TvP is definitely still stronger as shown by Last’s inability to close out that game vs Mini, and the TvZ matchup is close, one that I think could go either way. #1 in the sponmatches as usual doesn’t hurt either. That being said, FlaSh holds the advantage in two matchups and spon rankings, which means he’ll still get the nod. #2: Last ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/prech/files/RaceIcons/Ticon_pastel_Hyde.png) (+2) Last definitely showed us that his run in the KSL was no fluke, and a complete dismantling of Jaedong put the cherry on top of his fantastic run. And he had a real chance of knocking FlaSh down a peg in this PR had he not failed his 2 factory pressure so miserably. After Mini did an easily 23 nexus, I really feel like a player of Last’s caliber should’ve easily crushed it, or done more significant damage. That being said, let’s not take too much credit away from Last. He has definitely returned to his AlphaGo days where people thought he was the second coming of FlaSh, and he’s making a serious run for best in the world right now. Every matchup is solid for him and he doesn’t exhibit any glaring weaknesses. His temperament under pressure is immaculate, something that he could not say last year in offline tournaments. I’m excited for another potential deep run from Last in this ASL, and I hope that we will see him take on the best in this bracket play. A big series win in the semis against either Rain or EffOrt would be amazing, followed with a potential finals matchup against FlaSh, Mini, or Action which would be exciting to see. Last is mere inches away from knocking FlaSh off his podium,. We’ll have to see how he does this month. #3: Mini  (+6) A small note before I go into the #3 on the PR. I think 3-7 were all very difficult to rank. Each player has shown a very compelling argument for the #3 slot, but this is the list I ultimately came up with. Mini makes a surprising charge up the leader boards where he got some revenge against Last from their KSL match. The reason why he’s ahead of the pack right now is mainly because he has been a relatively consistent player, making ASL5 semis, barely missing out on KSL after losing to both Rain and Last who are top notch players, and he’s already qualified again for the KSL2. Mini is looking incredibly motivated to push his limits, and his games against Last and Shine showed excellent crisis management, something that will be necessary moving forward in the bracket. Still, the vZ test is something every Protoss must pass in order to maintain their high spot in the PR. His looming test against FlaSh will really determine whether or not he is deserving of a long term spot this high in the PR. While I don’t expect him to necessarily win, if he shows a close series that puts FlaSh on his heels, he’ll probably look to maintain for November. #4: Action  (New) After 2-0ing both his Ro24 and Ro16 groups, we see the Mafia Zerg return to the PR in spectacular fashion. He had always been lurking right below the top 10, having barely slipped into the top 10 after he got 3rd in the DanJJING SL, but this time it’s for real. Much like EffOrt, who never made the Ro8 in an ASL before, Action barely failed to qualify last time after getting eliminated in the Ro16. But his games in the Ro24 and Ro16 looked good and convincing, with his game over Light being an incredible proxy nydus, and he allowed Jaedong to get overconfident and managed to come back. His worth ethic this month has been off the charts, with 250 games played on spon, giving him the #7 spot for that month. He has 100 more games played over the next highest, Snow, at 150 games played. With this level of training and motivation to improve, Action is definitely a force to be reckoned with, and a deep run here in the ASL is all but assured with a pairing against weaker Protoss, Shuttle. A matchup against FlaSh would be an epic KT teamkill, or a matchup against Mini would potentially see Action move to the finals. #5: EffOrt  (New) Ok TT1, are you finally happy he’s on here? EffOrt comes charging up our PR with seemingly a new sense of purpose in this ASL. While he was crowned as a choke artist in the previous ASLs, always getting knocked out in the group stages, he decided to prove the doubters wrong (including myself) and finally broke through to the Ro8. Solid finishes in the Ro24 and Ro16, crushing through Soulkey and Snow, have shown to me that EffOrt is ready to play again. Getting #3 in sponmatches for the month of September doesn’t hurt either, with his ZvT being his weakest matchup even after going 2-3 against FlaSh and 2-5 against Light. Not too shabby if you ask me. A 14-2 vZ record also helps to compete against a Zerg heavy field this tournament. The marquee matchup in the Ro8 between him and Rain will be a big test for both players, but with Rain’s current PvZ form, I feel like EffOrt should have no troubles advancing to the semis. There, he would have his ZvT tested against expected winner Last, which will be a matchup filled with fireworks and dynamic Starcraft. #6: Rain  (-2) Not the best month for Rain. considering that he somehow lost a PvT vs Sharp of all people. While I used to praise his early game unit control which is what made him such a stellar PvP player, his choice of single gate after 12 nex and then poorly microing his goon down the ramp while getting worker drilled left me scratching my head. Sure he bounced back after beating both Mind and Sea to advance from the group, but they are both pretty poor Terran players who definitely aren’t very good at the vP matchup, and those games took far longer than I feel someone at Rain’s skill should have allowed it. He showed some crucial mistakes too against Sea, losing countless probes to mis-timed transfers and not being able to take good engagements made me question if Rain was going through the typical champion’s slump. He was still #5 in the sponmatches for September, but Rain is looking to slip more on the list if he can’t get his former shape back. A tough Ro8 match against EffOrt doesn’t help his case either, as his horrid PvZ was exposed by Jaedong in the KSL. #7: Jaedong  (-5) So close yet so far. That’s been the story of Jaedong’s life. Always so close to breaking through that ceiling, until FlaSh has to come along and ruin everything. After a disappointing KSL Finals, Jaedong showed us he was still determined to compete in this ASL, playing stellar Starcraft in his Ro24 group. And then things went downhill for the Tyrant. After a brilliant flank against FlaSh on Transistor to shock fans and see him bring God to his knees before sealing the deal with his mutalisk follow-up, he was once again playing phenomenal Starcraft against Action in the Winner’s match… until he took a poor muta battle that the old Jaedong would have never done. He lost his flock of mutas, quickly followed by the game, and would once again do battle with FlaSh to determine who would advance. And once again, he would bring God to his knees with brilliant zerglings attacks and the hydralisk bust at the natural. But like Thor in Infinity War, he should’ve aimed for the head (or in this case, either targeted FlaSh’s CC or retreated after busting the natural). He went for an all-in with a newly made flock of mutalisks… only for one irradiate to evaporate them and seal the deal for FlaSh to push across the map and win the game. A heartbreaking finish for Jaedong, and his choice to withdraw from his seeded slot from the KSL2, means he drops several spots to 7th. He’s still a very strong player, but critical mistakes that we know the old Jaedong would never make means he’s close to dropping out of the top 10. #8: Soulkey  (-2) Yikes. Getting cleaned out of the Ro16 was not the look that Soulkey was going for. After a solid run in the KSL, many thought SK would pose a considerable threat to the top players minus Flash and Last. His game against EffOrt showed a complete lack of respect for Transistor’s double ramp, and he paid for it dearly, allowing EffOrt to gain an advantage that he carried to the end, and his game against Shuttle just looked flat. I expect a player of Soulkey’s caliber to not horribly lose 2 control groups of no micro scourge into 6 corsairs without killing a single one. Leave that to someone like HyuK. He was still #4 in the month of September for sponmatches though, meaning he’s still grinding out games and performing well. But he definitely needs a good performance at the KSL2 to climb back up in this PR. #9: Shuttle  (New) Shuttle manages to continue to surprise me with the occasional Ro8 finish. His Ro16 games were actually quite good, with his initial loss to Snow still being a very close game where his army control and large engagements actually went in his favor. His overall tactics might not be the best, as he lost Game 1 due to a zealot counter attack that killed his 3rd and allowed Snow an insurmountable economic advantage, but without that same advantage in their final game, Shuttle pushed back a goon/reaver attack at his front with very well placed storms, and other significant engagements outside Snow’s base to effectively seal the deal with a free 3rd base. Tactically, I think there are some issues that Shuttle needs to fix. In both his Snow and Soulkey game, he failed to establish his 3rd both times against counter attacks, and even in the wildcard game against FlaSh, it was much the same, where getting a 3rd would be heavily punished by the opponent. I think if he understands how to safely secure those external bases, he’ll be in a solid place to move forward, but a tough road is ahead of him with a surging Action as his Ro8 opponent. #10: Sharp ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/prech/files/RaceIcons/Ticon_pastel_Hyde.png) (New) Sharp advancing from his group was no surprise. Sharp advancing over Rain was definitely a surprise. We all knew the bunker rush into the 12 nex was coming, but his SCV drilling was somehow perfect, managing to make pretty much every unit of Rain completely worthless. The standard TvT specialist would then follow up with closing out his group against Sea pretty handily, and now he’s matched up against another Terran, Last. While Last is definitely an S-class player right now while Sharp is a lower A-tier player, his TvT speciality should make this Ro8 matchup a good one to watch. Furthermore, qualifying for the KSL2 gives him some more credit to be back in the top 10. -- Close But No Cigar (CBNC) --- BeSt: When your best matchup is PvT, and you look like you forgot how to play the matchup properly, it’s not a good look. BeSt who used to be a king of PvT looked flat against Last. The SKT Protoss needs to figure out his game again if he wants to return to our top 10. Larva: Just dropping outside the top 10 for a few reasons. First, the surprising amount of resurging players in this ASL means we need to make space for them in the top 10, whereas Larva has been relatively inactive. Second, his sponmatches, which is really the only way to judge Larva these days, was a terrible 34% in September, definitely far from the spot he wants to be at. Hopefully, he’ll show us that his temporary break from the scene hasn’t caused him to lose a step in the KSL2. Snow: The obvious absence from the top 10 for the ASL runner up is due to a few things. One, his glaring weakness at PvZ still shows, and his failure to make it into the KSL was another big reason for not making it back. His PvZ is still showing huge weaknesses, and losing to JyJ of all people is not the look you want. Writer: FlaShFTW Graphics: v1 Editors: Bigfan
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Action over Effort, LUL
that's some incredible recency bias
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United States10096 Posts
On October 11 2018 06:00 iopq wrote: Action over Effort, LUL
that's some incredible recency bias considering that effort has been a choke artist before this tournament, im still very cautious about him. and action has been improving the fastest of all players right now, look at his spon matches. he's a solid player that many people are underestimating right now.
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On October 11 2018 06:09 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2018 06:00 iopq wrote: Action over Effort, LUL
that's some incredible recency bias considering that effort has been a choke artist before this tournament, im still very cautious about him. and action has been improving the fastest of all players right now, look at his spon matches. he's a solid player that many people are underestimating right now. Choke artist or not, he won VANT36.5 National Starleague and SSL Classic Season 1
When has Action won anything? I'm not saying he's bad and he won't win things in the future, but you have to give someone who's an actual champion SOME credit
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Ares[Effort]
DEMACIA6550 Posts
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On October 11 2018 06:00 iopq wrote: Action over Effort, LUL
that's some incredible recency bias I mean all the recent BW powerrankings on here have had extreme recency bias. "Oh X player got top 2 at a tournament? That makes him a Top 3 player automatically" (since Flash is number 1 no matter what and might not have been in the finals of that tournament).
"Oh Action made top 8 at the latest ASL? Well he must be a top 8 player then!".
I personally think the rankings aren't fun to read when they are decided like that. Getting high on these rankings should take many great results - not winning your last few matches.
I mean I am really excited to watch Action's games but he is too high and I think that almost everyone will agree with me on that. He shouldn't be in the top 8.
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LMAO Rain under Action and Mini
Trash rankings, even with Rain's loss in RO8
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Bisutopia19211 Posts
On October 11 2018 07:49 Rodya wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2018 06:00 iopq wrote: Action over Effort, LUL
that's some incredible recency bias I mean all the recent BW powerrankings on here have had extreme recency bias. "Oh X player got top 2 at a tournament? That makes him a Top 3 player automatically" (since Flash is number 1 no matter what and might not have been in the finals of that tournament). "Oh Action made top 8 at the latest ASL? Well he must be a top 8 player then!". I personally think the rankings aren't fun to read when they are decided like that. Getting high on these rankings should take many great results - not winning your last few matches. I mean I am really excited to watch Action's games but he is too high and I think that almost everyone will agree with me on that. He shouldn't be in the top 8. Action placed 3rd in Danjjing Starleague Season 3. He played amazing and convincing games. Then he comes in to the ASL and rocks it. Action has only recently returned from the Army yet his form is great and he has shown that he is scary in offline games. I think his spot is well earned.
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Really nice rankings. I’m looking forward to the rest of asl and flash’s games especially, if flash and last meet in the finals like everyone’s expecting were in for a great time! If last upsets flash it will be the game heard round the world. Flash may actually see a challenge for the #1 title for the first time in years.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On October 11 2018 06:36 iopq wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2018 06:09 FlaShFTW wrote:On October 11 2018 06:00 iopq wrote: Action over Effort, LUL
that's some incredible recency bias considering that effort has been a choke artist before this tournament, im still very cautious about him. and action has been improving the fastest of all players right now, look at his spon matches. he's a solid player that many people are underestimating right now. Choke artist or not, he won VANT36.5 National Starleague and SSL Classic Season 1 When has Action won anything? I'm not saying he's bad and he won't win things in the future, but you have to give someone who's an actual champion SOME credit Action just came back recently and he already made the Ro16 and now he's in the Ro8. He's beaten Sharp, Soulkey, and Rain in ASL5 then beat EffOrt, Mong, Light and Jaedong this ASL. That doesn't even include his online third place like BD mentioned. Even in ASL5, he only lost that match to Rain because he accidentally targeted his hydra den so Rain's zealot killed all his hydras. He's one of the players who is practicing the most, seems to put a ton of effort into his games, and has shown fantastic results too.
On the other hand, what has EffOrt even managed these last several months? FlaShFTW isn't wrong per se. EffOrt seems to choke a lot. Yes, he won VANT and SSLC and he got respect for it, but VANT was back in 2015/16 before we had the large influx of players back and SSLC was an invite only tournament with 7 other players that took place in 2017. Your results from 2-3 years ago shouldn't make you climb to the top of the PR.
Is EffOrt a great player? Sure. Does he deserve to be on the PR for this month? sure. Does he deserve to be higher than Action who has outperformed him result-wise and is looking even more stable in some cases? No, absolutely not imo but you are free to think differently.
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United States10096 Posts
On October 11 2018 08:18 ShowTheLights wrote: LMAO Rain under Action and Mini
Trash rankings, even with Rain's loss in RO8 I appreciate your insightful and thought provoking criticism to help me improve c:
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On October 11 2018 08:18 ShowTheLights wrote: LMAO Rain under Action and Mini
Trash rankings, even with Rain's loss in RO8 Everyone is entitled to their opinion including yourself and the original poster.
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This PR is 100% correct this month, not one thing I can disagree with.
Happy to see Sharp coming up!
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United States33199 Posts
What a handsome, lighter blue Terran race icon :O
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effort
WHERES SNOW THO? ACTION #4?
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United States10096 Posts
On October 11 2018 12:17 TT1 wrote:effort WHERES SNOW THO? ACTION #4?  Haha I will never please you. Snow shouldve won against JyJ too to get into Ksl which was a huge knock on him.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49904 Posts
On October 11 2018 11:37 Waxangel wrote: What a handsome, lighter blue Terran race icon :O
we've had that for 6 years now.
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I'm curious who BigFan considers to have the best PvZ. Rain's losses to Effort and jd were disappointing, but is there a better PvZ player?
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I like this list. I feel recent form is a good measuring stick to use for month rankings. Can't wait to see next months after the next batch of ASL games.
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United States10096 Posts
On October 11 2018 14:43 oshibori_probe wrote: I'm curious who BigFan considers to have the best PvZ. Rain's losses to Effort and jd were disappointing, but is there a better PvZ player? Bisu was really the only good PvZ player imo. If we look over the current Protoss list, I really find it hard to find one protoss that's good.
Snow: hah. no. Shuttle: No, but has some potential? Rain: no. Mini: Gotta see him face some stuff Zerg competition. Movie: over the hump, used to be great at PvZ GuemChi: nope best: he had a span of 1 month where his pvz was actually decent (took larva to 5 games) otherwise, nope Stork: LOL Horang2: nope Jaehoon: who?
overall, I think PvZ is way too polarizing of a matchup now, and no protoss can really say that they can hold their own.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49904 Posts
obviously PvZ would be solved if they used TT1's Dark Archon style
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I think shuttle may prove his haters wrong with a strong series against action in the ro8. We don’t have too much evidence to go on with him, good or bad, but he’s shown he’s at least capable. If there was any team league formats right now I’d expect him to be a solid rotation type of player. I miss the shinhan bank proleague. Mini really held a game he had no buisness winning vs last on sylphid so that makes me believe in him plus he’s just so darn cute. Rain shows flashes of brilliance at times and other times, looks completely bottom of the barrel. Needs to improve consistency. Horang2 I saw play an excellent pvt in the quals in roadkill, but in a lot of games he just sucks. Pro tosses need to stop being inventive and go back to the tried and true, arbiter max out build. It is standard for a reason. I’m surprised these are the only people we’ve got to choose from for top Protoss in a esport as big as sc and a country as large as South Korea. Stork has looked horrible since the incriut osl, best .. yeah no.. guemchi has got potential to be at least decent imo, snow... kind of a fizzle out type of guy doubt he’ll make any waves but at least plays good once in a while. Movie.. no no. Always looks baked and plays like it.
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On October 11 2018 16:02 BLinD-RawR wrote: obviously PvZ would be solved if they used TT1's Dark Archon style
haha :D
snow actually does this 1 sair into DA build after he goes gate exp and scouts the z going ~4/5 hatch before lair, its pretty cool
but yea i think DAs are severely underused tbh, even pro p's aren't able to keep up with muta hydra tech switches, seems like only Bisu was able to harass with sairs all game and keep them alive
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EffOrt is gonna show Last how not to lose against Flash in a starleague final
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What are some of you complaining about? Recency bias? Tournament results from a year ago?
Dude it's called October (2018) power rankings, not all time greats. Effort' performance from 1 year ago is irrelevant. Would you like to have Nada, iloveoov, Savior and the rest of the "actual champions" on here too?
Recent results are exactly what this is about.
On October 11 2018 08:18 ShowTheLights wrote:LMAO Rain under Action and MiniTrash rankings, even with Rain's loss in RO8 Rain's aka Mr "I play PvZ like Bisu" asl win was many moons ago, he got trashed by effort and jd this past month.
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Thanks for the ranking! But shouldn't my boy Jaedong be higher? He was just in the finals, he only seems to lose against the top terrans Flash and Last, and his forfeiting of KSL shouldn't have a huge bearing because he didn't lose anything (Flash did the same and stayed #1, right?).
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On October 11 2018 17:13 JieXian wrote: What are some of you complaining about? Recency bias? Tournament results from a year ago?
Dude it's called October (2018) power rankings, not all time greats. Effort' performance from 1 year ago is irrelevant. Would you like to have Nada, iloveoov, Savior and the rest of the "actual champions" on here too?
Recent results are exactly what this is about.
Winning 10-15 games in the last month doesn't make someone a top 5 player, the sample size is too little. Otherwise Shine was the best Zerg that time he made it to the finals.
People forget that EVEN FLASH loses like 30% of his games vs. good pros like Larva
Let's say you have them face off in a tournament finals BO5.
2.7% of the time Larva wins 3-0 5.67% of the time Larva wins 3-1 7.938% of the time Larva wins 3-2 18.522% of the time Flash wins 3-2 30.87% of the time Flash wins 3-1 34.3% of the time Flash wins 3-0
this means that just based on their spon record, you'd expect Larva to STILL win more than 16% of the time just based on strategy choice or whatever
but of course if Larva won people would be like OMG he's the best player now
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Action over Effort is not just recency bias. It's exceed expectations bias.
So to review objectively: * Both players advanced 2-0
* Effort was #3 in Sponmatches while Action is #7
* Effort has far more pedigree on any time scale (not always important for PRs, but when it's close, this is often a tiebreaker, and in fact is cited as such in Flash vs Last ranking)
* Effort is simply a better player (one litmus test: gun to head, pick between Effort and Action for a game, a BO5, a ladder season, whatever, 90-100% of rational people are picking Effort). Also not always important for PRs, but also is in fact cited in Flash vs Last ranking)
Where the bias likely comes in: * Action gets bonus points for 2-0ing a group with JD and Flash only he didn't even play Flash. JD also blew that game (had JD won, Action is likely out since he has to play Flash next, in which case he's not even on the PR). In fairness, Action played very well to make it possible for JD to make that mistake.
* Action gets bonus points for his awesome strategy against Light. Partly deserved, but also perhaps masks his true talent level in ZvT.
* Action gets bonus points for playing tons of games. Partly deserved, but likely chosen more because it fits the narrative than because raw number of games played is consistently applied as a criteria.
* Action gets bonus points because it's exciting when someone surprises us.
* Effort gets negative points because he's been a "choker", a nebulous concept that mostly disregards sample sizes, the fact that the games Effort was eliminated in in ASL are almost all spectacular games where his opponent played amazingly (seriously go back and rewatch them), is an application of events that happened a long time ago (citing this because people are saying "it's a recent times PR"), and ignores how players like Action can't choke because they're not going anywhere in tournaments and aren't considered good enough to choke.
Power rankings can and should have subjectivity. But I think the people calling out this choice for being especially questionable are spot on.
I actually really like Action as a player and always have. Just calling it like I see it.
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215 Posts
I wouldn't rank EffOrt below Action, but otherwise a good list
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Effort gets so much less respect than he deserves.
He's an OSL champion pulling off one of the greatest OSL finals of all time (and is the last player to beat Flash in a final). He played at 60% all matchups in the Kespa days. He's clearly one of the most skilled players. His A+ game is as good as anyone else in the world.
Problem for Effort is Flash fans don't like him (though I'm an exception as I'm a huge Flash fan, but Effort's always been my favorite Zerg) because of the OSL. Jaedong fans don't like him because he semi-threatens Jaedong's status. Bisu fans don't like him for whatever reason.
Weirdly, even Effort's 4-1 of Flash not too long ago, in an offline event that players actually kind of cared about, manages to get glossed over. If anyone else did that we'd never hear the end of it. Ironically it feels like since Effort has beaten Flash before it somehow cancels out the credit he gets for that series.
Effort might be the most underrated player in recent history. He's not at the TBLS tier of status, but skillwise he's been right there for a long time. Effort and Mind are the only OSL/MSL champions outside of TBLS that are still active today (I guess Calm plays now and then but he's barely had a presence on the modern scene). And Effort had a far better overall career than Mind.
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Efforts a great player. I don’t think anyone’s trying to disrespect him. I personally love his style when he’s calm and cooI and has practiced enough. If he has one weakness it’s the occasional panic when the opponent prods him with zealots or somthing. I don’t know if he had played his ro8 games when this got written so flashftw may not have seen his genius versus rain. My list would go: flash, last, effort, action, mini, shuttle, light, sharp, Jaedong, rain. I see little argument for soulkey making the list, especially any higher then spot 10. Light imo would demolish soulkey right now using most logical measurements of skill.
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EffOrt not just a great player, he is the best zerg all time. I haven't seen a single one matching his z v t and z v p since 2010. I still prefer Jaedong's zvz but that's about it, I find him just too confident during tv match that he tries impossible strats which often cost him the game. That guy has no reason to go pool5 or pool9 to win against anyone but I guess it's just his style. While Jaedong on the other hand is really awesome during tv match with strats carefully prepared to the highest degree.
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51398 Posts
effort is good, but calling him better the best zerg of all time (better than jaedong, savior, yellow etc) is just straight out wrong.
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effort is good, but calling him better the best zerg of all time (better than jaedong, savior, yellow ) is just straight out wrong.
JULYZERG!! 3 OSL & first Z to take the Golden Mouse makes you on that list 
Being an old July fan I just had to say it. Most people have forgotten July :-/
Edit* Not intention to derail the thread. This PR-list is good. Sad to see the JD-drop but it was expected...
Also I like Mini getting some attention high up. And reasoning for putting Flash over Last.
And someone should stop this meaningless "Action or Effort in what spot" discussion lol They are both close in form and it comes Down to the details. If someone can't handle Action being above, then wait for the Ro8 vs Shuttle and see how he perform. They (Effort - Action) are neck and neck atm.
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On October 11 2018 21:45 GTR wrote: effort is good, but calling him better the best zerg of all time (better than jaedong, savior, yellow etc) is just straight out wrong.
From my short conversations with the guy, it seems he bases everything on the eye test purely from EffOrt's on-form games in match-ups he enjoys watching (meaning result oriented assessment is utterly ignored). I do think there is an argument to be had that if you ignore certain match-ups and concentrate solely on EffOrt's finest moments from his preferred match-ups, he did reach a higher level of a particular style of gaming than any zerg that ever existed.
It is the kind of assessment that excludes old school players such as YellOw, and is more of a statement of who can compare with EffOrt when he is on-form, motivated enough, playing his preferred match-ups, and in sync with the the meta-game. Basically, it seems to me that it is a statement of appreciation for how a player satisfied one's personal aesthetic taste for the game, just like how some people enjoy how Bisu finest multi-tasking moments make him look like a god, or how sAviOr seemed to have his opposition in the palm of his hands during his prime, and should be considered separately from what they actually achieved with their skillsets.
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Bisutopia19211 Posts
On October 11 2018 22:44 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2018 21:45 GTR wrote: effort is good, but calling him better the best zerg of all time (better than jaedong, savior, yellow etc) is just straight out wrong. From my short conversations with the guy, it seems he bases everything on the eye test purely from EffOrt's on-form games in match-ups he enjoys watching (meaning result oriented assessment is utterly ignored). I do think there is an argument to be had that if you ignore certain match-ups and concentrate solely on EffOrt's finest moments from his preferred match-ups, he did reach a higher level of a particular style of gaming than any zerg that ever existed. It is the kind of assessment that excludes old school players such as YellOw, and is more of a statement of who can compare with EffOrt when he is on-form, motivated enough, playing his preferred match-ups, and in sync with the the meta-game. Basically, it seems to me that it is a statement of appreciation for how a player satisfied one's personal aesthetic taste for the game, just like how some people enjoy how Bisu finest multi-tasking moments make him look like a god, or how sAviOr seemed to have his opposition in the palm of his hands during his prime, and should be considered separately from what they actually achieved with their skillsets. With that criteria, the Greatest of All time in all 3 races: Effort (your pick based on above statement), Jangbi, and Flash?
Regarding Zerg: I still think you can argue Jaedong's peak form over Effort
Regarding Terran: I think there could be some good arguments made for Nada and iloveoov.
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On October 12 2018 01:33 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2018 22:44 Letmelose wrote:On October 11 2018 21:45 GTR wrote: effort is good, but calling him better the best zerg of all time (better than jaedong, savior, yellow etc) is just straight out wrong. From my short conversations with the guy, it seems he bases everything on the eye test purely from EffOrt's on-form games in match-ups he enjoys watching (meaning result oriented assessment is utterly ignored). I do think there is an argument to be had that if you ignore certain match-ups and concentrate solely on EffOrt's finest moments from his preferred match-ups, he did reach a higher level of a particular style of gaming than any zerg that ever existed. It is the kind of assessment that excludes old school players such as YellOw, and is more of a statement of who can compare with EffOrt when he is on-form, motivated enough, playing his preferred match-ups, and in sync with the the meta-game. Basically, it seems to me that it is a statement of appreciation for how a player satisfied one's personal aesthetic taste for the game, just like how some people enjoy how Bisu finest multi-tasking moments make him look like a god, or how sAviOr seemed to have his opposition in the palm of his hands during his prime, and should be considered separately from what they actually achieved with their skillsets. With that criteria, the Greatest of All time in all 3 races: Effort (your pick based on above statement), Jangbi, and Flash? Regarding Zerg: I still think you can argue Jaedong's peak form over Effort Regarding Terran: I think there could be some good arguments made for Nada and iloveoov.
With the name of the game being the absolute best in terms of pure gaming ability, all past names, including JangBi, would become defunct from the conversation due to the advancements in the meta-game. This is something Flash has said multiple times during his stream. He is confident of beating his 2010 self, not because he is at his sharpest in terms of mechanics, but because he knows more about the game now.
With that being said, Flash also said that his 2010 self would absolutely destory his current self, if his old self was given time to absorb the new information after being exposed to it from his future self. After a certain point with this way of thought, we would be discussing alternate timelines (stuff like Flash of 2010 learning strategy from 2018 while maintaining his mechanics and drive) that has no relevance in this world, except for the fact that some of the alternate realities would have results and perceptions people prefer over what actually happened.
I strongly believe that the only match-up the old version of Jaedong would be superior to EffOrt as of now would be zerg-versus-zerg, because it is by far the least strategically demanding match-up, and is mostly dependent on micro-managament. In the same vein, numerous amateur players would easily bitch slap iloveoov at the peak of his competitive prowess in standard macro-games, due to how far the game has progressed. It is a thought experiment designed specifically to ignore the past and focus everything on the now. The average professor of theoretical physics has a greater understanding of the universe than Isaac Newton, is he a "better" physicist? In some senses, yes, but it is a disingenuous method of going about things in my opinion.
I personally don't rate a player's ability to satisfy a certain game aesthetic over competitive results. Canata was many times over superior to BoxeR in standard orthodox games in 2005, but was lacking in so many other departments as a competitor that he was busy failing to qualify for all the individual leagues he attended, while BoxeR started from the same starting place(offline qualifiers) as Canata, and battled his way through the finals playing what was thought to be by far his weakest match-up of terran-versus-protoss versus the likes of Reach, PuSan, and Anytime (some of the finest protoss players of that era). A connoisseur of the game with a deep appreciation of the standard macro-game might still rate Canata as the "better" player, but results are results. There is no point in having competition if all you are going to do is ignore everything that happened due to it not aligning with your perception of how things should be, and conjure a reality where the standards you personally have are all that matters when assessing a player.
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Flash : "This was a surprise, but it was another easy hold. But look right now, here is the critical mechanical mistake that almost cost me the game. I accidentally stopped repairing bunker and moved SCV forward away from bunker! Ok who saw that now? (Replays the video) I actually cursed, not verbally but I actually said AH FUCK in my head the moment I did this. I never curse and my mouth is usually very clean. Very rare that I say it even in head. But the god play I made here was that I was paying attention to the vultures out on the map while JD was attacking my natural. Observer not catching it on the screen but if you look at the minimap, I cut drones going out to build 3rd gas hatchery 2 more times while defending vs hydralisks. I won because of that despite the messup at the bunker.(Viewer says Effort made a comment about that during game) Wait, he noticed that?
This is why JD is making more lings right now, because his hatchery isn't going up at all. If JD took the 3rd hatchery, he could have actually won the game despite everything"
Man do I feel silly now for hammering on JD and saying that he just chooses a strat and mindlessly keeps going at it for better or worse, just goes to show that in each and every game at this level, there will be things that we plebs don't spot at all.
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United States10096 Posts
I think people forget that the TL SCR staff has traditionally held Effort in very high respects during our previous ASL power ranks. If I recall he always held a pretty high spot, top 5 usually, so the idea that I just hate effort and wanted to knock him down a peg is wrong.
You guys keep bringing up the past, but the truth is the past does not weigh much in a MONTHLY power rank. Sure, I’ll talk about tournaments that happen a few months ago (danjjing and kal), but effort being an OSL champ means nothing right now. If I have to give Effort a higher spot due to his OSL win, then FlaSh would never leave the #1 spot because I have to take his 3 OSL MSL ASL into account. And then the rankings would just be boring.
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Bisutopia19211 Posts
On October 12 2018 02:43 IshinShishi wrote: Flash : "This was a surprise, but it was another easy hold. But look right now, here is the critical mechanical mistake that almost cost me the game. I accidentally stopped repairing bunker and moved SCV forward away from bunker! Ok who saw that now? (Replays the video) I actually cursed, not verbally but I actually said AH FUCK in my head the moment I did this. I never curse and my mouth is usually very clean. Very rare that I say it even in head. But the god play I made here was that I was paying attention to the vultures out on the map while JD was attacking my natural. Observer not catching it on the screen but if you look at the minimap, I cut drones going out to build 3rd gas hatchery 2 more times while defending vs hydralisks. I won because of that despite the messup at the bunker.(Viewer says Effort made a comment about that during game) Wait, he noticed that?
This is why JD is making more lings right now, because his hatchery isn't going up at all. If JD took the 3rd hatchery, he could have actually won the game despite everything"
Man do I feel silly now for hammering on JD and saying that he just chooses a strat and mindlessly keeps going at it for better or worse, just goes to show that in each and every game at this level, there will be things that we plebs don't spot at all. This is an example of why watching the minimap is so critical. Sometimes when I solo cast I spend 80% of my time just staring at the box at the bottom left. Even observers miss key moments. For example, in Rain versus Effort Artosis spotted the a cluster of Effort's units disappear purely on the minimap because the observer was focused on the DT movement. During that JD vs Flash game, I kept thinking Jaedong is really far ahead and all he needs to do is lightly contain the natural and expand. At the point I stayed focused on the minimap and remember being so frustrated that he was unable to take his extra base to get ahead. Unfortunately Flash closed that timing gap for an eco advantage quickly and Jaedong made critical mistakes in over committing his hydras to try and take the CC out.
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On October 11 2018 06:36 iopq wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2018 06:09 FlaShFTW wrote:On October 11 2018 06:00 iopq wrote: Action over Effort, LUL
that's some incredible recency bias considering that effort has been a choke artist before this tournament, im still very cautious about him. and action has been improving the fastest of all players right now, look at his spon matches. he's a solid player that many people are underestimating right now. Choke artist or not, he won VANT36.5 National Starleague and SSL Classic Season 1 When has Action won anything? I'm not saying he's bad and he won't win things in the future, but you have to give someone who's an actual champion SOME credit
that still was a very long time a go so it doesn't really mean any much in terms of his performance now days
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The recency bias is real here. What should happen is you should really weigh in those sponsored matches more. That's where the pros try real hard, especially the popular ones.
There is no better metric. Offline tournaments are good too but they don't tell the whole story.
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On October 12 2018 03:51 Connor56201 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2018 06:36 iopq wrote:On October 11 2018 06:09 FlaShFTW wrote:On October 11 2018 06:00 iopq wrote: Action over Effort, LUL
that's some incredible recency bias considering that effort has been a choke artist before this tournament, im still very cautious about him. and action has been improving the fastest of all players right now, look at his spon matches. he's a solid player that many people are underestimating right now. Choke artist or not, he won VANT36.5 National Starleague and SSL Classic Season 1 When has Action won anything? I'm not saying he's bad and he won't win things in the future, but you have to give someone who's an actual champion SOME credit that still was a very long time a go so it doesn't really mean any much in terms of his performance now days
Yes but even if you go off recent performance only, Effort had a better month than Action. That's where the critique comes from.
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On October 11 2018 21:45 GTR wrote: effort is good, but calling him better the best zerg of all time (better than jaedong, savior, yellow etc) is just straight out wrong.
I don't get what is your reference of "best" I am only talking about skill here. Please don't tell me you think YellOw or sAviOr are or were better players, Jaedong and EffOrt reached a level way beyond their reach. And god knows I would trade any stream in the world just to watch sAviOr.
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On October 12 2018 05:06 iFU.pauline wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2018 21:45 GTR wrote: effort is good, but calling him better the best zerg of all time (better than jaedong, savior, yellow etc) is just straight out wrong. I don't get what is your reference of "best" I am only talking about skill here. Please don't tell me you think YellOw or sAviOr are or were better players, Jaedong and EffOrt reached a level way beyond their reach. And god knows I would trade any stream in the world just to watch sAviOr.
Since "best" in a game context usually implies "greatest" which factors in achievements, I usually describe what you're saying as "highest skill" or "peak ability".
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United States33199 Posts
On October 12 2018 05:09 darktreb wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2018 05:06 iFU.pauline wrote:On October 11 2018 21:45 GTR wrote: effort is good, but calling him better the best zerg of all time (better than jaedong, savior, yellow etc) is just straight out wrong. I don't get what is your reference of "best" I am only talking about skill here. Please don't tell me you think YellOw or sAviOr are or were better players, Jaedong and EffOrt reached a level way beyond their reach. And god knows I would trade any stream in the world just to watch sAviOr. Since "best" in a game context usually implies "greatest" which factors in achievements, I usually describe what you're saying as "highest skill" or "peak ability".
I don't think there's any meaningful consensus on what those words mean, which is why every power rank in every sport is pretty contentious :D
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darktreb that was my point yes.
Also I do not have any problems with the power rank though, Action can be before EffOrt for all I care and on top of that he has been impressive indeed.
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very impressed with Last lately
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Sorry to nitpick but I wouldn't say this about Actions win over Jaedong:
he allowed Jaedong to get overconfident and managed to come back. Jaedong basically played a better game, got in a very advantageous position and then lost by having bad control in a muta engagement.
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On October 15 2018 16:37 Elroi wrote:Sorry to nitpick but I wouldn't say this about Actions win over Jaedong: Jaedong basically played a better game, got in a very advantageous position and then lost by having bad control in a muta engagement. jd drop from second to this position is a sad story,u cant drop him like that for lossing a final then lossing in asl as third after taking a game from FlaSh and almost winning the rematch,the game vs action was also a tragedy,he did eveything almost perfect except that muta attack,hard to tell,maybe he thought he was very far ahead(he was ahead) but no to trade all the mutas like that.
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My boy Shuttle should be moving up also. Don’t forget to put him as being the toss with the best lategame according to Effort and Bisu.
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Power rankings aka argue about who u think r the best players it is interesting to see what you all think tho
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This powerranking didn't age well haha. Action cheesed hard and still lost. Was fun to watch but call it what it is. Also Artosis apparantly watches JD streams and mentioned that JD said that Action beat him because of a hotkey that wasn't properly set before the game. Action was definitely overrated in retrospect.
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+ Show Spoiler +Even worse now, Effort just showed that he's the #1 Zerg in the world just now in his dismantling of Last. Besides, that burrow usage was cluth
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You guys need to relax and not take things so seriously.
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I second that Effort has been underappreciated by these last few power ranks.
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I really don't see the problem. Power Rankings are, as far as I can see, a lot more about recency bias than historically based. Where history is more of a tipping point in cases of doubt, than anything else.
+ Show Spoiler +And it's not like there's a huge difference between Effort and Action in the ranking. They're right by each others' side. Action had come back from the army and showed increasingly stronger form, whereas effort hadn't performed really well in any ASL og KSL for a long time. In doubt between the two, I can easily see it tipping towards Action. Ya'll fanboys going apeshit over nothing. But having that said, Effort really had some of the most beautiful ZvT I've seen in a while, except for G1 and G4 which were more on the opposite end of the specter.
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On October 21 2018 23:06 Incomplete..ReV wrote:I really don't see the problem. Power Rankings are, as far as I can see, a lot more about recency bias than historically based. Where history is more of a tipping point in cases of doubt, than anything else. + Show Spoiler +And it's not like there's a huge difference between Effort and Action in the ranking. They're right by each others' side. Action had come back from the army and showed increasingly stronger form, whereas effort hadn't performed really well in any ASL og KSL for a long time. In doubt between the two, I can easily see it tipping towards Action. Ya'll fanboys going apeshit over nothing. But having that said, Effort really had some of the most beautiful ZvT I've seen in a while, except for G1 and G4 which were more on the opposite end of the specter. If power rankings are nothing more than a list that tells you who got the furthest in the last tournament/2 tournaments, then there is zero point to having them - just look at the tournament brackets.
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United States10096 Posts
On October 21 2018 20:59 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: go remake this thing This is the reason why people don't want to make power ranks. Bro, it's a simple prediction based upon trend lines of players performing. It is not an end all be all for how the next month will play out. The ranking is merely how I believe players will play. Mini got 3rd but was matched with FlaSh. It doesn't mean I think Mini will finish 3rd.
You guys take this way too seriously and too literally for how people will play. Things happen, players get better or slump. I'm not a prophet, never pretended to be. If the criticism of a PR is after the fact of games being played, please, just don't even start. FlaSh could lose to Shuttle in the semis and I wouldn't even bat an eye on how I made this month's PR.
No one was arguing Last at #2, but oh he loses and now everyone gets to come here and try to bash this? Really?
On October 22 2018 05:34 Rodya wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2018 23:06 Incomplete..ReV wrote:I really don't see the problem. Power Rankings are, as far as I can see, a lot more about recency bias than historically based. Where history is more of a tipping point in cases of doubt, than anything else. + Show Spoiler +And it's not like there's a huge difference between Effort and Action in the ranking. They're right by each others' side. Action had come back from the army and showed increasingly stronger form, whereas effort hadn't performed really well in any ASL og KSL for a long time. In doubt between the two, I can easily see it tipping towards Action. Ya'll fanboys going apeshit over nothing. But having that said, Effort really had some of the most beautiful ZvT I've seen in a while, except for G1 and G4 which were more on the opposite end of the specter. If power rankings are nothing more than a list that tells you who got the furthest in the last tournament/2 tournaments, then there is zero point to having them - just look at the tournament brackets. Not even true. If I was making it solely on finishes, then Last would be #1, Jaedong would still be top 5, Rain and SK would both be top5, especially Rain.
Do people here even bother to read the explanations at all?
On October 21 2018 23:06 Incomplete..ReV wrote:I really don't see the problem. Power Rankings are, as far as I can see, a lot more about recency bias than historically based. Where history is more of a tipping point in cases of doubt, than anything else. + Show Spoiler +And it's not like there's a huge difference between Effort and Action in the ranking. They're right by each others' side. Action had come back from the army and showed increasingly stronger form, whereas effort hadn't performed really well in any ASL og KSL for a long time. In doubt between the two, I can easily see it tipping towards Action. Ya'll fanboys going apeshit over nothing. But having that said, Effort really had some of the most beautiful ZvT I've seen in a while, except for G1 and G4 which were more on the opposite end of the specter. Wow, someone who actually understands the point I was trying to go with this PR. Thank god. And his fantastic play will be reflected in the next PR. Imagine that.
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All I'm going to say is that I disagree that Action has been in excellent form. I think that he is in good form but got through ASL mostly with luck (e.g. group bracket and JD's mutas) and cheese. I do read the PR but I disagree on this point and that is why I disagree with Action's rank.
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On October 21 2018 23:06 Incomplete..ReV wrote:I really don't see the problem. Power Rankings are, as far as I can see, a lot more about recency bias than historically based. Where history is more of a tipping point in cases of doubt, than anything else. + Show Spoiler +And it's not like there's a huge difference between Effort and Action in the ranking. They're right by each others' side. Action had come back from the army and showed increasingly stronger form, whereas effort hadn't performed really well in any ASL og KSL for a long time. In doubt between the two, I can easily see it tipping towards Action. Ya'll fanboys going apeshit over nothing. But having that said, Effort really had some of the most beautiful ZvT I've seen in a while, except for G1 and G4 which were more on the opposite end of the specter.
Power ranks are mostly arbitrary and silly with ill-defined criteria.
The issue many people, myself included, had with this Power Rank was that on any time scale, Effort had been outperforming Action. Even if you value recency bias, it didn't make any sense. Yes power ranks are arbitrary, but this choice felt extra arbitrary. I guess it crossed the tipping point.
Basically Action got it for having a cool strat against Light, pulling off a tough win against Jaedong, and playing a lot of sponmatches.
Also Power Rank writers / defenders could chill too. People like getting worked up about this stuff. Part of the fun.
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On October 22 2018 05:54 FlaShFTW wrote:This is the reason why people don't want to make power ranks. Bro, it's a simple prediction based upon trend lines of players performing. It is not an end all be all for how the next month will play out. The ranking is merely how I believe players will play. Mini got 3rd but was matched with FlaSh. It doesn't mean I think Mini will finish 3rd. You guys take this way too seriously and too literally for how people will play. Things happen, players get better or slump. I'm not a prophet, never pretended to be. If the criticism of a PR is after the fact of games being played, please, just don't even start. FlaSh could lose to Shuttle in the semis and I wouldn't even bat an eye on how I made this month's PR. No one was arguing Last at #2, but oh he loses and now everyone gets to come here and try to bash this? Really? Show nested quote +On October 22 2018 05:34 Rodya wrote:On October 21 2018 23:06 Incomplete..ReV wrote:I really don't see the problem. Power Rankings are, as far as I can see, a lot more about recency bias than historically based. Where history is more of a tipping point in cases of doubt, than anything else. + Show Spoiler +And it's not like there's a huge difference between Effort and Action in the ranking. They're right by each others' side. Action had come back from the army and showed increasingly stronger form, whereas effort hadn't performed really well in any ASL og KSL for a long time. In doubt between the two, I can easily see it tipping towards Action. Ya'll fanboys going apeshit over nothing. But having that said, Effort really had some of the most beautiful ZvT I've seen in a while, except for G1 and G4 which were more on the opposite end of the specter. If power rankings are nothing more than a list that tells you who got the furthest in the last tournament/2 tournaments, then there is zero point to having them - just look at the tournament brackets. Not even true. If I was making it solely on finishes, then Last would be #1, Jaedong would still be top 5, Rain and SK would both be top5, especially Rain. Do people here even bother to read the explanations at all? Show nested quote +On October 21 2018 23:06 Incomplete..ReV wrote:I really don't see the problem. Power Rankings are, as far as I can see, a lot more about recency bias than historically based. Where history is more of a tipping point in cases of doubt, than anything else. + Show Spoiler +And it's not like there's a huge difference between Effort and Action in the ranking. They're right by each others' side. Action had come back from the army and showed increasingly stronger form, whereas effort hadn't performed really well in any ASL og KSL for a long time. In doubt between the two, I can easily see it tipping towards Action. Ya'll fanboys going apeshit over nothing. But having that said, Effort really had some of the most beautiful ZvT I've seen in a while, except for G1 and G4 which were more on the opposite end of the specter. Wow, someone who actually understands the point I was trying to go with this PR. Thank god. And his fantastic play will be reflected in the next PR. Imagine that.
Come on, you know what you're getting yourself into with Power Ranks. The point is basically just to generate unnecessarily heated discussion with semi-arbitrary inputs. If I were you I'd just laugh these off. If it's going to bother you this much then you probably shouldn't write them.
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Action had a good streak but that’s all that went into this pr, he isn’t better then effort. Never has been never will be, probably. The way rain played in Ksl he could be higher and Jaedong a bunch of no shows should make him lower or maybe leave him off the list at all. Last was more spark then sizzle but he did win the Ksl. Korean pros like to win games they should lose and lose games they should win to throw off the western beat writers and fans lol. All part of the game.
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United States10096 Posts
On October 22 2018 12:03 darktreb wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2018 05:54 FlaShFTW wrote:On October 21 2018 20:59 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: go remake this thing This is the reason why people don't want to make power ranks. Bro, it's a simple prediction based upon trend lines of players performing. It is not an end all be all for how the next month will play out. The ranking is merely how I believe players will play. Mini got 3rd but was matched with FlaSh. It doesn't mean I think Mini will finish 3rd. You guys take this way too seriously and too literally for how people will play. Things happen, players get better or slump. I'm not a prophet, never pretended to be. If the criticism of a PR is after the fact of games being played, please, just don't even start. FlaSh could lose to Shuttle in the semis and I wouldn't even bat an eye on how I made this month's PR. No one was arguing Last at #2, but oh he loses and now everyone gets to come here and try to bash this? Really? On October 22 2018 05:34 Rodya wrote:On October 21 2018 23:06 Incomplete..ReV wrote:I really don't see the problem. Power Rankings are, as far as I can see, a lot more about recency bias than historically based. Where history is more of a tipping point in cases of doubt, than anything else. + Show Spoiler +And it's not like there's a huge difference between Effort and Action in the ranking. They're right by each others' side. Action had come back from the army and showed increasingly stronger form, whereas effort hadn't performed really well in any ASL og KSL for a long time. In doubt between the two, I can easily see it tipping towards Action. Ya'll fanboys going apeshit over nothing. But having that said, Effort really had some of the most beautiful ZvT I've seen in a while, except for G1 and G4 which were more on the opposite end of the specter. If power rankings are nothing more than a list that tells you who got the furthest in the last tournament/2 tournaments, then there is zero point to having them - just look at the tournament brackets. Not even true. If I was making it solely on finishes, then Last would be #1, Jaedong would still be top 5, Rain and SK would both be top5, especially Rain. Do people here even bother to read the explanations at all? On October 21 2018 23:06 Incomplete..ReV wrote:I really don't see the problem. Power Rankings are, as far as I can see, a lot more about recency bias than historically based. Where history is more of a tipping point in cases of doubt, than anything else. + Show Spoiler +And it's not like there's a huge difference between Effort and Action in the ranking. They're right by each others' side. Action had come back from the army and showed increasingly stronger form, whereas effort hadn't performed really well in any ASL og KSL for a long time. In doubt between the two, I can easily see it tipping towards Action. Ya'll fanboys going apeshit over nothing. But having that said, Effort really had some of the most beautiful ZvT I've seen in a while, except for G1 and G4 which were more on the opposite end of the specter. Wow, someone who actually understands the point I was trying to go with this PR. Thank god. And his fantastic play will be reflected in the next PR. Imagine that. Come on, you know what you're getting yourself into with Power Ranks. The point is basically just to generate unnecessarily heated discussion with semi-arbitrary inputs. If I were you I'd just laugh these off. If it's going to bother you this much then you probably shouldn't write them. I'm totally ok with people disagreeing with the PR. That's not the point, either that or you just didn't get it. When people are going to just look at the list itself, and then argue, and then talk even more after the fact when games are played during the month and then come back to this just to kick me while I'm down, yeah that's where I don't take shit from people.
Look at the majority of criticism. Who's actually quoting what I say or using what I've written in the explanations and then refuting them? How many? Or how many are just going to say "Oh Effort should be higher" or "X player is too high". Tell me why. I get better when people give feedback. No PR is going to be perfect, but at least give me the courtesy of giving constructive feedback and general productive conversations. eonzerg as an example just likes to waltz in and take a steaming dump on the PR just because he has too big of a raging boner for Effort. Ok bud, where were you when Effort was getting eliminated from every Ro16 group 3 times in a row? That's the problem I have with most of the criticism on the page.
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There’s no need to fight and argue. It’s fine for everyone to have an opinion that differs from others and share it without being mean and hateful.
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TLADT24920 Posts
I believe FlaShFTW's post was basically saying that people are coming in weeks after the month has started, saying things should be changed despite not providing any information, or countering the clear points in the OP then closing off with one line comments as if they know better. These rankings were pretty spot on overall for October, but obviously some changes will likely take place for the November one given recent form, and results.
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FlashuFTW in my case dont take me serious,that was the adrenaline of moment watching my favorite player showing the world what he showed to me all these years :p .i apreciate what u guys still doing for BW,without you guys we were so f*cked, so much love,this is like when Real Madrid vs Barcelona happens,you are enemy of your friends but when the day is over handshake
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Don't get me wrong, I still love reading the power ranks even if I don't agree with it. That is part of the fun. And I think Eonzerg thinks like me.
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On October 23 2018 01:46 BigFan wrote: I believe FlaShFTW's post was basically saying that people are coming in weeks after the month has started, saying things should be changed despite not providing any information, or countering the clear points in the OP then closing off with one line comments as if they know better. These rankings were pretty spot on overall for October, but obviously some changes will likely take place for the November one given recent form, and results.
In this case people complained from the start. And there were several well reasoned critiques (obviously some one liners but so what? This is a forum and repliers are not the official writers).
And then they piled on after.
Every power rank is subjective but this one had a point that seemed extra bad, and it got a commensurately big reaction.
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TLADT24920 Posts
I don't disagree, but you should go back and read some of the early posts which don't really provide much constructive criticism or room for debate. It'll be like me saying that I think X player should be number #1 and leaving it be. Granted, I don't think it's a huge deal since PRs are always subjective in the end. I only chimed in to try and clarify FlaShFTW's posts ^^
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"There, he would have his ZvT tested against expected winner Last, which will be a matchup filled with fireworks and dynamic Starcraft."
Whoop whoop!
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On October 23 2018 17:57 Navane wrote: "There, he would have his ZvT tested against expected winner Last, which will be a matchup filled with fireworks and dynamic Starcraft."
Whoop whoop!
Whooop whooop!
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On October 21 2018 23:06 Incomplete..ReV wrote:I really don't see the problem. Power Rankings are, as far as I can see, a lot more about recency bias than historically based. Where history is more of a tipping point in cases of doubt, than anything else. + Show Spoiler +And it's not like there's a huge difference between Effort and Action in the ranking. They're right by each others' side. Action had come back from the army and showed increasingly stronger form, whereas effort hadn't performed really well in any ASL og KSL for a long time. In doubt between the two, I can easily see it tipping towards Action. Ya'll fanboys going apeshit over nothing. But having that said, Effort really had some of the most beautiful ZvT I've seen in a while, except for G1 and G4 which were more on the opposite end of the specter.
I play fantasy football, and fantasy football rankings are supposed to be PREDICTIVE. They don't always rank players with better recent performance above good players that have a few bad games. For example, Mitchell Trubisky despite his high recent scores is NOT a better QB than Tom Brady. To release a ranking like this would be embarrassing even if you rank Trubisky just one spot above Brady.
The point is Action should have been more like #7 or lower, DESPITE good recent performances.
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On October 23 2018 20:52 iopq wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2018 23:06 Incomplete..ReV wrote:I really don't see the problem. Power Rankings are, as far as I can see, a lot more about recency bias than historically based. Where history is more of a tipping point in cases of doubt, than anything else. + Show Spoiler +And it's not like there's a huge difference between Effort and Action in the ranking. They're right by each others' side. Action had come back from the army and showed increasingly stronger form, whereas effort hadn't performed really well in any ASL og KSL for a long time. In doubt between the two, I can easily see it tipping towards Action. Ya'll fanboys going apeshit over nothing. But having that said, Effort really had some of the most beautiful ZvT I've seen in a while, except for G1 and G4 which were more on the opposite end of the specter. I play fantasy football, and fantasy football rankings are supposed to be PREDICTIVE. They don't always rank players with better recent performance above good players that have a few bad games. For example, Mitchell Trubisky despite his high recent scores is NOT a better QB than Tom Brady. To release a ranking like this would be embarrassing even if you rank Trubisky just one spot above Brady. The point is Action should have been more like #7 or lower, DESPITE good recent performances.
Power rankings, for me at least, has always been about summing up recent narratives from a personal stand point. It tended to be written by people who have a good eye for story telling, and created discussion points about the hottest players around at that moment in time, in a ranking format.
Quite frankly, if people had predictive powers, they would be off doing stocks and raking in money on betting sites, not wasting time writing long opinion pieces about the hottest players around at the moment. I sure as hell wouldn't envy the dude expected to have an accurate predictive piece that withstands the test of time for weeks on end. Things like player condition, luck of the draw, practice dynamics (who gets help or advice from whom), order of maps for any given series, are variables which are nearly impossible to pin down ahead of time, despite playing a huge role in deciding the outcome of competions. Requiring a higher standard of power rankings is fine, but asking accurate predictive pieces on the competitive form of players in the weeks or months to come is a ridiculously tall task for anybody.
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Nobody expects that out of fantasy football writers either, but fantasy rankings from experts outperform simply picking the player with the highest points per game every week. You might say they're better off doing stocks, but that requires knowledge of stocks - those people know football, not stocks.
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Dude, the writers of the Power Rank get to decide what it means, whether it's a summary of performance in the last month or some predictive picks. Just as you're free to write your own "iopq's Predictive Picks" article.
You're going into a reggaeton club and complaining that the music is in Spanish.
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the worse power rank in history.
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![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/KkWHg0Z.jpg)
what a great finals, LONG LIVE BW
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On October 28 2018 17:24 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: the worse power rank in history.
hombre, por favor + Show Spoiler +
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